WEBVTT

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Jesus is the pivotal point between
Christianity and Islam.

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Stop.

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Let's think about this for a second.

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Islam teaches monotheism.

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Islam teaches following God, worshiping
God.

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Islam teaches a lot.

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There's a lot of violence there,
but again, a lot of violence looks similar

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somewhat to the Old Testament.

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What is the pivotal point as far as we're
concerned?

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Well, when we talk about Jesus' life in
Islam, what does Islam deny?

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Well, first, we've seen that Islam denies
Jesus' crucifixion.

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Chapter 4, verse 157, mamakathaluhu
wamasalabuhu, he was not killed,

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nor was he crucified, but so it was made
to appear to them.

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So Jesus did not die on the cross,
according to Islam.

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If he did not die on the cross,
he could not have been raised from the

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dead.

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So Jesus' resurrection is denied by Islam.

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And then of course we have chapter 5,
verse 72 of the Qur'an, where if you

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believe Jesus is God, then you will go to
hell.

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Chapter 5, verse 116 of the Qur'an,
where Jesus denies ever claiming to be

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divine.

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So what do we have?

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In the Qur'an, chapter 3, you can believe
Jesus cleansed the lepers, that he healed

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the blind, he healed the deaf,
he raised the dead, he is the virgin-born

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Messiah, Son of Mary, he is the one who's
going to come back at the end of times.

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You can believe all that, but don't you
believe that he died on the cross,

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or that he rose from the dead,
or that he is God?

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What does Romans chapter 10, verse 9 tell
us?

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If you confess with your mouth that Jesus
is Lord, and believe in your heart that

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God raised him from the dead, you will be
saved.

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The exact three things that Islam denies
about Jesus are the exact three things we

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have to believe in order to be saved.

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Death, deity, and resurrection of Jesus
Christ.

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That's not a coincidence in my book.

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So the polemic then hinges, the Islamic
polemic against Christianity hinges on

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Christology.

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Who was Jesus?

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Did he die on the cross?

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Did he claim to be God?

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The issue of the resurrection is usually
presented in a secondary fashion,

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and that makes sense.

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It's secondary to the crucifixion.

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But did he rise from the dead?

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That matters.

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These are important issues, and so what
we're going to go through right now is

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what some of you would term Christian
apologetics, but it's intimately related

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to Islamic apologetics, and we're going to
be looking at this from an Islamic lens,

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but the same issues you would see
elsewhere.

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The first one we want to talk about is,
did Jesus die by crucifixion?

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Here's the verse in chapter 4,
verse 157.

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And because of their saying, we slew the
Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's

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messenger, they slew him not, nor
crucified him, but it appeared so unto

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them.

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And lo, those who disagree concerning it
are in doubt thereof.

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They have no knowledge thereof,
save pursuit of a conjecture.

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They certainly slew him not.

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I call this the Islamic litmus test.

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I believe that if you're dealing with a
Muslim who is providing an apologetic

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against Christianity, you can test whether
that Muslim is sincere or not through this

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issue, and that's why I call it the litmus
test.

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This issue is so starkly in favor of the
Christian position, that if a Muslim

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argues against it after having seen the
evidence, I have to conclude that they're

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not being genuine.

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There's nothing you could say to them that
could convince them of the strength of the

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Christian claim.

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Let's take a look at the reasons why.

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There's two lines of evidence that I use.

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The evidence I'm providing here is
basically a recap of a debate I had in

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2009, I believe, might have been 2010,
with a man named Osama Abdullah on the

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issue of the resurrection of Jesus.

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Two lines of evidence, historical evidence
and supporting evidence, that we're going

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to provide.

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First, the historical evidence.

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Did Jesus die by crucifixion?

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Well first, it is the unanimous written
testimony concerning what happened to

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Jesus.

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When we look at Jewish references,
we have multiple Jewish references.

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We've got the Talmud, we've got Mara
Bar-Serapion, who's writing a letter,

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we've got Josephus, the Jewish historian,
who's writing for the Romans.

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All of these Jewish sources say Jesus died
by crucifixion, as it were.

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We have Gentile sources, we've got Tacitus
and Lucian, both of whom say that Jesus

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died.

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Of course, you've got first-generation
Christians, and by that I mean Matthew,

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Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter.

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These folk all say Jesus died on the
cross.

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It is the unanimous testimony of early
Christianity, and it's the unanimous

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testimony of second-generation
Christianity, folks like Papias,

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Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, that this is
what people say happened to Jesus

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mattered.

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It does matter.

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On the flip side, the fact that there's no
reference to the fact that Jesus may have

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survived crucifixion also matters.

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Nobody even dares to say Jesus survived
crucifixion.

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And the reason why is because people knew
what crucifixion was back then.

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Today, when we'll say perhaps Jesus
survived the crucifixion, we are basically

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showing ignorance of what the crucifixion
process was.

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For those of you who have not,
I would highly suggest you get acquainted

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with Martin Hengel's book, Crucifixion.

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Martin Hengel, great European scholar,
what was really great about him is that he

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wrote a really tiny book.

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It was called Crucifixion.

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Easy to read, gives you a whole new
perspective on how ghastly the crucifixion

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was, how difficult the process was.

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As it turns out, people used to say,
let no Roman citizen even hear the word

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crucifixion.

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It is so horrendous.

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The word crucifixion is where we get our
word excruciating from.

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Excruce, off the cross.

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You had to invent a word to describe how
bad the crucifixion is.

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The process of crucifixion starts with
flogging.

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It is called the pre-death in some works,
because people were flogged, not with just

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a stick, but with a Roman whip called the
cat-o'-nine-tails.

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This whip often had about six leather
cords that came off of it, and at the end

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of these leather cords were leather balls
which had shards of bone and metal

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dumbbells attached to them.

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Well, what was the point of these shards
of bone and these metal dumbbells?

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When striking a victim, the metal
dumbbells would cause vasodilation.

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It would cause pain receptors to become
acute.

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It would cause blood vessels to dilate,
thereby weakening people even more when

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those shards of bone were grabbed into the
skin and pull it off.

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So the skin was literally pulled off and
blood was profuse because of those metal

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dumbbells.

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It was very intelligently designed for the
purpose of weakening a victim.

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In the process of flogging, it has been
said that intestines were spilt because

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the abdominal wall was weakened so much
the intestines came out.

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This happened on a few occasions.

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People sometimes died during the flogging
process.

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The whole body was flogged.

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The whole body was flogged.

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It was horrific to say the least.

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The point of the flogging was so that
people would not be able to kick and fight

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when they would be nailed to the cross.

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They would be on the verge of death as it
were already.

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Now, what we know about flogging is that
Jews were not allowed to flog more than 40

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times.

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According to Old Testament law,
you could flog 40 and no more.

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And what the Jews would do is they would
stop at 39 just to make sure that they

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didn't accidentally miscount while they're
flogging.

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They didn't want to break God's law.

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The Romans, in spite of the Jews,
would therefore flog more than 40 times to

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show them, hey, we're not bound by our
silly little laws.

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We're gonna flog as much as we want.

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And so the flogging was often very
protracted.

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It is at this point that the victim would
then be made to sometimes carry the cross

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beam to the point of the cross.

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Not the entire cross, just the cross beam.

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And they would walk to that place.

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By the way, they're being flogged while
naked and they're being crucified while

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naked.

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Cheers.

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So all those wonderful paintings we have
of Christ with the loincloth on are

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lessening the humiliation that our Lord
suffered.

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He was naked on the cross.

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When being placed on the cross,
nails were driven through the arms,

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not the hands, as is often depicted in
medieval statements.

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The reason why is because back in those
days when someone said hand, they pictured

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this whole area, not just this area.

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So it was okay to say hands and still mean
here.

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This is the only place the weight of a
person could be supported, here between

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the radius and the ulna.

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And guess what runs right through there?

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The median nerve.

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So if you've ever hit your elbow on your
funny bone, imagine piercing it with a

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nail.

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It destroys your hands.

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The median nerve is the main sensory motor
nerve of the hand and it destroys your

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hands.

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As you're nailed there, your feet or your
knees are bent slightly and one ankle is

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placed over the other and a nine-inch nail
is driven through your feet.

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This is for more than just torture though.

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This is to give you a means to push
yourself off of the nail.

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When you are hanging in this position,
if you hang, if you're just hanging,

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you will not be able to breathe out.

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You'll breathe in and then to breathe out
you have to have some room.

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You have to have some positive pressure
develop and so your ribcage needs to

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collapse.

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In order to do that, you have to push out.

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That is what the nail in your feet was
for.

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So you'd push up to be able to breathe
out, otherwise the victim would die very

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quickly.

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And so that nail was actually an
additional torture device to make sure

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that your death was protracted,
it was long.

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And by the way, every time you're pushing
up to breathe out, you're scraping a back

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that has no skin against splintered wood.

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This is not a fun process and when you are
at the point of death, all the Roman

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soldiers have to do is see that you're not
moving anymore.

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If you're not moving, you're not
breathing, you're dead.

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But they didn't stop there because if they
weren't sure that you were dead,

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the Roman soldier could lose their job,
be killed if they weren't sure you were

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dead.

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So what they'd often do is they'd
administer death blows.

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This is why the knees of the robbers
alongside Jesus were broken.

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By breaking their knees, they were not
able to push up, they would stop breathing

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and they would die.

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Jesus had already given up his spirit and
so they pierced his heart with a spear.

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Other forms of death blows included
crushing the skull with a sledgehammer,

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it included lighting people on fire,
all kinds of horrific ways to crucify

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people.

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Anyone who knows the process knows that
you will die by crucifixion.

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There is no account of anybody in history
surviving a full Roman crucifixion.

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There is an account of Josephus seeing
three friends being crucified.

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They weren't done being crucified,
they were on the cross but they weren't

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given a death blow or anything of that
sort, their knees hadn't been broken,

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and he asked for them to be taken down
immediately.

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They were taken down and two of the three
of them died anyway even though they were

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given the best Roman medical treatment.

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One of them survived but guess what?

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He didn't have a full crucifixion,
he didn't have a death blow.

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There is no account of anyone surviving a
full Roman crucifixion.

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So to argue that Jesus survived the cross
or that he did not die on the cross is to

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argue against the facts, strongly against
the facts.

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And this is why no one says that Jesus
survived crucifixion, it's unthinkable.

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It's unthinkable that someone would
survive crucifixion.

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That's the historical evidence that we
have but there's also supporting evidence.

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Scholarship has repeatedly affirmed today
that Jesus' death on the cross is the one

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thing we can be most certain about
concerning his life.

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Paula Fredrickson has said that,
Bart Ehrman has said that, Gert Ludemann

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has said that.

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So many people have said that it's silly
to even think that scholarship might think

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otherwise.

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It's the unanimous testimony of
scholarship.

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If we can know anything about Jesus' life
is that he died on the cross.

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That's what they'll say.

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So the scholarly consensus is quite
strong.

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In addition, the centrality of Jesus'
death on the cross to the Christian

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message kind of mandates that Jesus have
died on the cross in order for

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Christianity to have spread the way it
did.

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That he died on the cross and rose is
central to the Christian propagation of

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the message.

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Had he not died on the cross then it
wouldn't have been possible for

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Christianity to have spread the way it
did.

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Again, this is supporting evidence.

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It's not as strong as the historical
evidence was.

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We also have the issue of prophecies in
the Old Testament.

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In the Old Testament it seems that the
righteous one would be crushed for the

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sins of many.

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You have Isaiah 53, you have an image in
Psalm 22 where Jesus himself quotes on the

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cross when he says, my God, my God,
why have you forsaken me?

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He's quoting Psalm 22, the righteous
servant that is suffering, that is

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pierced.

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So you have prophecies in the Old
Testament that support this as well.

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Again, supporting evidence.

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The primary evidence is the historical
evidence.

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Historically speaking, there is not one
shred of evidence that Jesus survived

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crucifixion, not one.

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When people began to propose that theory,
it was lovingly titled by Josh McDowell,

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the swoon theory.

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When people began proposing the swoon
theory back in the 18th century,

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an atheist by the name of David Strauss
wrote a critique.

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It's called the Strauss Critique.

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And he said that the swoon theory,
he didn't call it the swoon theory,

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but the idea that Jesus did not die on the
cross is untenable because not only would

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Jesus then have had to break out of the
tomb with broken hands and feet and go

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through and fight these guards and move
out of there, that's virtually impossible

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for a man who had just survived
crucifixion.

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But he would also have to convince the
disciples that he was the risen Lord.

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Well, if you've got a man who barely
survived crucifixion, he doesn't look like

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the risen Lord.

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The disciples might say, we got to get you
to the hospital or whatever they had,

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you know, we got to get you to medical
care.

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That's how they would respond if Jesus had
just survived crucifixion.

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The fact that he was considered the risen
Lord precludes the option that he had just

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survived crucifixion.

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That's called the Strauss Critique.

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And in Western scholarship, that ended the
swoon theory.

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And David Strauss was not a Christian.

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He wrote one of the most inflammatory
works against Christianity for the time.

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But the Strauss Critique remains the
strongest critique of the swoon theory,

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or the apparent death theory, as it's
often called.

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So the Islamic explanations for 4157,
how do they respond to all this?

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What is their case?

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The primary one that's used, and the one
that was used initially by Muslim

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scholars, is the substitution theory.

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It says that Jesus was not killed,
nor was he crucified.

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So Muslims will often say, Jesus was never
even put on the cross.

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And the next part of the verse says,
but so it was made to appear to them.

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They say, Allah made it look like Jesus
was put on the cross.

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How did he do that?

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The earliest Muslim explanations for this
is that Allah put Jesus' face on somebody

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else, and somebody else was crucified in
his place.

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Whom, you might ask?

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Judas is one example that Muslims use in a
case of cosmic justice.

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Judas was put on the cross in place of
Jesus.

18:48.840 --> 18:50.040
Another is Simon of Cyrene.

18:50.360 --> 18:54.340
Some of the more apologetically minded
folk will say, ah look, Simon of Cyrene

18:54.340 --> 18:55.660
had to carry Jesus' cross.

18:55.800 --> 18:58.120
At that time, they confused Simon with
Jesus.

18:58.760 --> 19:00.580
Never mind the bloody mess that Jesus was.

19:01.280 --> 19:05.360
They confused Simon of Cyrene with Jesus,
and he was placed on the cross instead.

19:06.660 --> 19:09.260
These are the substitution arguments that
are used.

19:11.700 --> 19:14.960
And Muslims, by the way, have the
advantage over atheists and agnostics to

19:14.960 --> 19:16.580
say that God made it look like that.

19:16.940 --> 19:18.800
And certainly God has the potential to do
that.

19:20.660 --> 19:25.360
The next most common theory, and I see
this being espoused more and more by

19:25.360 --> 19:28.700
Muslim apologists, is the theistic swoon
theory.

19:29.440 --> 19:31.720
It's a swoon theory with theistic bent on
it.

19:32.280 --> 19:34.640
That Allah allowed for Jesus' survival on
the cross.

19:35.400 --> 19:39.500
If Allah can raise him from the dead,
as you Christians say he can, why could he

19:39.500 --> 19:41.120
not save him from dying in the first
place?

19:42.100 --> 19:46.040
A legitimate argument, but it yields a
dilemma.

19:48.860 --> 19:52.840
And the dilemma is, and I think it's a
dilemma for both of these positions,

19:53.480 --> 19:56.700
it stems from chapter 3 verse 55 of the
Quran.

19:56.840 --> 20:02.220
Now chapter 3 verse 55 of the Quran says
that Jesus' disciples would be uppermost

20:02.220 --> 20:03.900
until the day of resurrection.

20:05.100 --> 20:07.520
Jesus' disciples would be uppermost until
the day of resurrection.

20:07.700 --> 20:11.820
In other words, Christians, especially
those who immediately came from him,

20:12.120 --> 20:13.580
would be on top.

20:13.660 --> 20:15.220
They would be superior in whatever way.

20:18.120 --> 20:24.900
To say that Jesus did not die on the
cross, but it looked like he died on the

20:24.900 --> 20:34.220
cross, would explain why the alive.

20:35.060 --> 20:36.520
Now they're preaching the risen Jesus.

20:36.620 --> 20:38.440
That makes sense, okay, that fits.

20:39.440 --> 20:42.360
But they're doing that because Allah
tricked them.

20:44.080 --> 20:46.320
You have a deceptive God at this point.

20:46.860 --> 20:51.220
In other words, the Christian faith was
started because Allah deceived the

20:51.220 --> 20:51.620
disciples.

20:53.960 --> 20:59.580
If Allah put somebody else's face on
Jesus, or if Allah miraculously kept Jesus

20:59.580 --> 21:06.160
alive, the disciples who then went out and
preached the risen Jesus, they were

21:06.160 --> 21:07.360
tricked by Allah.

21:07.580 --> 21:08.220
They were deceived.

21:09.460 --> 21:10.380
Are they to be blamed?

21:10.560 --> 21:11.260
Is it their fault?

21:11.460 --> 21:13.480
Maybe the blame should be on them and not
on Allah.

21:13.560 --> 21:16.340
No, the Quran says 3.55 that they were
uppermost.

21:16.940 --> 21:20.120
The disciples weren't bad, they were good
guys according to 3.55.

21:21.400 --> 21:23.380
So deception has to be on Allah in this
case.

21:24.060 --> 21:27.500
Or perhaps, perhaps, Allah left that up to
Jesus.

21:27.880 --> 21:31.180
Jesus explained to them that you didn't
die on the cross, and Jesus didn't do it.

21:31.960 --> 21:33.660
Then we're left with an incompetent
Messiah.

21:34.860 --> 21:36.440
Then we're left with an incompetent
Messiah.

21:36.580 --> 21:38.700
Would Jesus really have done that?

21:38.800 --> 21:43.160
In fact, we're left with an incompetent
Messiah anyway, because Jesus wasn't able

21:43.160 --> 21:46.120
to adequately explain to his disciples,
no, I'm not God.

21:47.000 --> 21:48.800
No, I didn't die on the cross for your
sins.

21:48.880 --> 21:50.360
He wasn't adequately able to explain that.

21:51.560 --> 21:55.460
So the dilemma we're left with here,
by the Islamic position, is we're either

21:55.460 --> 21:58.860
given an incompetent God, I'm sorry,
a deceptive God, or an incompetent

21:58.860 --> 21:59.200
Messiah.

22:01.340 --> 22:05.480
Regardless, in either case, Allah is
responsible for Christianity.

22:06.100 --> 22:11.540
And if Christianity is shirk, is the
unforgivable sin, then Allah is

22:11.540 --> 22:16.620
responsible for creating the religion
which led the most people to hell in all

22:16.620 --> 22:17.020
of history.

22:21.020 --> 22:22.180
Call this the Islamic dilemma.

22:25.470 --> 22:25.850
Yes, sir?

22:26.030 --> 22:28.130
How would they have responded to that if
you brought it up today?

22:28.270 --> 22:28.630
Poorly.

22:31.710 --> 22:33.570
You can watch it in debates.

22:33.750 --> 22:36.730
Whenever we've debated the issue of Jesus'
death on the cross, or his resurrection,

22:36.930 --> 22:37.730
this issue comes up.

22:38.990 --> 22:41.810
And a common Muslim tactic, and this is
why I had so much respect for Bassam

22:41.810 --> 22:42.150
Zawadi.

22:42.510 --> 22:43.290
He didn't do this.

22:43.370 --> 22:46.150
A common Muslim tactic in debates is to
simply ignore what you said.

22:47.270 --> 22:47.850
Just ignore it.

22:47.850 --> 22:48.790
Pretend it wasn't said.

22:50.310 --> 22:53.010
And Islamic rhetoric is so good,
because you have...

22:53.550 --> 22:57.890
Muslims are still... a lot of them are
coming from oral societies.

22:59.030 --> 23:01.330
Not necessarily that they don't know how
to read, that's not what I'm saying,

23:01.810 --> 23:04.310
but oral prowess is highly revered.

23:05.350 --> 23:07.890
And so they have good rhetorical skill.

23:08.450 --> 23:11.530
And you're in the middle of this debate,
and they just won't respond, and they'll,

23:11.530 --> 23:13.930
you know, dazzle you with smoke and
mirrors over here.

23:15.090 --> 23:17.410
And a lot of people won't notice the lack
of response.

23:17.590 --> 23:20.350
But if you watch the debates, you'll see
that they have not been able to respond to

23:20.350 --> 23:20.670
this well.

23:30.390 --> 23:31.190
It's a great question.

23:31.630 --> 23:32.790
It is one of the 99 names.

23:33.250 --> 23:37.870
The question was that, isn't one of the 99
names of Allah that he is a deceiver?

23:38.830 --> 23:44.410
In the Quran, there's a verse,
I forget where, which says that they

23:44.410 --> 23:46.030
planned to deceive you.

23:46.430 --> 23:47.930
Talking about the enemies of Muhammad.

23:49.310 --> 23:51.590
And then it says, but Allah planned to
deceive them.

23:51.710 --> 23:53.070
And Allah is the best of deceivers.

23:54.530 --> 23:57.610
So from that, you get the name for Allah.

23:59.470 --> 24:04.510
The idea is, you know, I think from that
kind of social context, the idea is,

24:04.650 --> 24:07.310
look, they're trying to be resourceful in
this way against you, and Allah is more

24:07.310 --> 24:08.270
resourceful against them.

24:08.470 --> 24:09.390
But it's still deceptive.

24:09.590 --> 24:12.290
But deception wasn't as negative back then
as it is to us now.

24:12.690 --> 24:16.810
So now, what Muslims are often doing is
they're changing that word from deceiver

24:16.810 --> 24:17.950
to schemer.

24:18.430 --> 24:20.030
Schemer is not quite as bad as deceiver.

24:21.770 --> 24:25.150
And then people are going a step further,
and they're going from schemer to planner.

24:25.950 --> 24:28.470
And they planned against you, and Allah
planned against them, and Allah is the

24:28.470 --> 24:29.010
best of planners.

24:30.250 --> 24:31.950
So that's kind of how they're taking it.

24:32.670 --> 24:34.130
And they'll try to defend that
translation.

24:34.990 --> 24:36.170
So that's how they respond to that.

24:39.690 --> 24:40.510
Any other questions here?

24:44.690 --> 24:46.510
Extremely important to be well-versed with
this.

24:46.670 --> 24:50.410
Now, when you... the reason I bring this
up and spend so much time on it is,

24:50.990 --> 24:53.870
if you read, for example, the case for the
resurrection of Jesus back there,

24:54.090 --> 24:58.970
that Mike Lacona and Gary Habermas' book,
they don't spend as much time on the death

24:58.970 --> 24:59.810
of Jesus on the cross.

25:01.370 --> 25:05.810
Most Christian apologetic works just
simply don't, because they assume you

25:05.810 --> 25:06.410
already believe it.

25:07.030 --> 25:08.770
Everyone already believes Jesus died on
the cross, right?

25:08.830 --> 25:10.070
So here you go, let's move on.

25:10.450 --> 25:11.710
Let's talk about the fact that he rose.

25:12.850 --> 25:18.010
Even in the the four-point response that
Mike gives, you know, fact number two.

25:18.250 --> 25:19.050
You know, fact number one.

25:21.010 --> 25:21.890
No, it's fact number one.

25:21.970 --> 25:23.510
Fact number one, Jesus died on the cross.

25:23.810 --> 25:24.850
He just gives it as a fact.

25:25.010 --> 25:26.990
It's like, here's a basis that we're
starting with.

25:27.110 --> 25:28.510
Okay, this is a fact that everyone agrees
with.

25:28.590 --> 25:29.070
Let's move on.

25:29.630 --> 25:32.310
It's like he doesn't spend too much time
on it, and he really ought not to.

25:32.370 --> 25:33.130
It's so obvious.

25:34.010 --> 25:37.710
But when you're debating Muslims,
or when you're dialoguing with Muslims,

25:38.210 --> 25:40.390
this is an important point to bring up.

25:56.810 --> 25:57.890
That's a great question.

25:58.090 --> 26:03.210
So the question was, could their view of
God's divine determination affect whether

26:03.210 --> 26:06.670
or not Allah is a planner, or a schemer,
or a deceiver?

26:07.510 --> 26:09.330
And I would say indirectly, yes.

26:10.510 --> 26:14.850
They never feel like they have to defend
God's character, because God can be

26:14.850 --> 26:15.590
whoever he wants to be.

26:16.230 --> 26:22.010
There's a lot more of a, a lot more of an
arbitrary nature to Allah in Islam than

26:22.010 --> 26:22.770
there is in Christianity.

26:24.370 --> 26:28.770
Now some, some Islamic philosophy has
dealt with that, but a lot of the

26:28.770 --> 26:34.090
beautiful Islamic philosophy was
undertaken by Muslims called the Mutazili.

26:34.930 --> 26:41.010
The Mutazili were around early in Islamic
history, and they, they imported a lot of

26:41.010 --> 26:46.470
Greek philosophy, Aristotle especially,
and they were putting together some

26:46.470 --> 26:47.750
coherent thoughts.

26:47.910 --> 26:53.910
They were, they were introducing reason
into the faith, and the Ash'aris who

26:53.910 --> 26:57.630
fought against them said, you're doing
this all wrong, you're bringing foreign

26:57.630 --> 26:59.150
thought in, that's not what Islam is
about.

26:59.550 --> 27:02.590
There was a big battle between the Ash
'aris and the Mutazili, and the Ash'aris

27:02.590 --> 27:02.830
won.

27:03.890 --> 27:07.510
So some of the really good philosophy that
tried to reconcile this stuff was early

27:07.510 --> 27:08.950
on, and no one pays any attention to it.

27:11.630 --> 27:12.190
Yes sir?

27:13.690 --> 27:14.090
Yeah,

27:20.440 --> 27:21.360
the virgin birth definitely.

27:21.760 --> 27:26.780
I mean, you see that the virgin,
the question was, does, do Muslims believe

27:26.780 --> 27:29.800
in the virgin birth and in some kind of
ascension of Jesus?

27:30.680 --> 27:31.700
And the answer is yes.

27:31.700 --> 27:34.280
The Quran says Jesus was virgin born,
clear as day.

27:34.440 --> 27:35.200
He was born a virgin.

27:39.910 --> 27:40.830
No purpose is given.

27:41.810 --> 27:43.910
It was just God demonstrating his power.

27:44.350 --> 27:47.530
He could, he could have a, you know,
he could have Jesus born without a father

27:47.530 --> 27:48.090
if he wanted to.

27:49.770 --> 27:52.790
So yeah, no necessary purpose for that.

27:53.870 --> 27:57.310
And I'm not gonna get into that.

27:58.990 --> 28:06.250
Yeah, and it also says in the Quran,
and we lifted him up to ourselves.

28:06.910 --> 28:10.290
And Muslims believe that means that Jesus
ascended into heaven.

28:11.270 --> 28:13.830
And that is why he will return at the end
of times.

28:15.390 --> 28:18.170
Again, from that tower in Damascus,
to start the latter days.

28:18.790 --> 28:22.090
So Muslims believe Jesus is gonna start
the latter days initiated by his return.

28:22.470 --> 28:24.310
So Muslims and Christians are waiting for
the return of Jesus.

28:27.500 --> 28:31.220
Yeah, that's, it's in the Quran that we
lifted him up to ourselves.

28:31.340 --> 28:34.120
Now some Muslims argue that that means in
status.

28:35.500 --> 28:37.200
We raised Jesus up to ourselves.

28:37.280 --> 28:38.560
They'll say that means in status.

28:38.580 --> 28:42.560
Because there's another verse which kind
of implies that Jesus did die here on this

28:42.560 --> 28:43.560
earth, that he wasn't raised.

28:44.860 --> 28:48.320
So some Muslims will say that meant God
lifted him up in status.

28:48.980 --> 28:52.420
Other Muslims will say the verse that says
Jesus died, that's talking about in the

28:52.420 --> 28:52.700
future.

28:53.080 --> 28:54.440
Jesus is gonna come back and then he'll
die.

28:55.680 --> 28:57.580
So you have some disagreement there.

28:57.700 --> 28:59.840
Again, I'm not big on Islamic eschatology.

29:00.160 --> 29:04.820
So if you want to look into this a bit
more, read the work of David Cook out of

29:04.820 --> 29:05.480
Rice University.

29:07.220 --> 29:08.960
I focus more on the historical aspects.

29:11.500 --> 29:13.500
Is that Joel Richardson?

29:14.020 --> 29:16.640
Yeah, I haven't read it.

29:31.070 --> 29:35.430
Okay, yeah, there's a lot of parallels in
eschatology, but there's a lot a lot of

29:35.430 --> 29:37.610
disparity, not much unity in Islamic
eschatology.

29:38.470 --> 29:42.050
I asked my friend, the same friend who
said he couldn't be my friend anymore,

29:42.670 --> 29:44.450
I asked him what he thought about the
afterlife.

29:44.590 --> 29:49.610
He sent me a 33 CD lecture series on
al-akhirah.

29:50.150 --> 29:53.230
I tried to listen to him, I just I
couldn't bear it after a while.

29:54.630 --> 29:57.050
I don't know much about Islamic
eschatology, so I apologize.

29:57.730 --> 30:02.030
Now I know what I was taught, which is not
too indicative of what everyone else was

30:02.030 --> 30:05.590
taught, because our sect of Islam believed
different things about eschatology than

30:05.590 --> 30:06.010
others did.

30:06.630 --> 30:09.950
Our sect was pacifist, and so we didn't
have an image of Jesus coming and killing

30:09.950 --> 30:11.890
all kinds of people, and fighting.

30:12.010 --> 30:14.750
That wasn't what ours was taught,
but ours was idiosyncratic.

30:20.670 --> 30:22.170
The Mahdi and the Messiah, yeah.

30:34.000 --> 30:36.200
Thanks, appreciate the consideration.

30:38.000 --> 30:39.560
Yeah, I saw another question a moment ago.

30:39.560 --> 30:46.280
Okay, so we have covered the issue of
Jesus' crucifixion.

30:48.240 --> 30:51.620
Extremely important, don't overlook it
when dealing with Islamic apologetics,

30:52.380 --> 30:58.440
but even more important than that in
Muslims' eyes is the claim to Jesus'

30:58.600 --> 30:58.720
deity.

30:59.340 --> 31:05.200
Now I would say the case for Jesus' deity
is very strong, very strong.

31:06.020 --> 31:09.080
I would say the case for Jesus' death on
the cross is airtight.

31:09.620 --> 31:10.440
You see the difference there?

31:11.120 --> 31:16.100
There's no room to say Jesus did not die
on the cross when coming from a historical

31:16.100 --> 31:16.600
perspective.

31:16.980 --> 31:22.660
So that's why I call the issue of Jesus'
crucifixion the litmus test, the Islamic

31:22.660 --> 31:23.480
litmus test.

31:23.960 --> 31:27.540
If you have a friend who's arguing various
issues with you, Islamic issues with you,

31:27.840 --> 31:32.220
and he is willing to say that Jesus did
not die on the cross, you present all the

31:32.220 --> 31:32.900
evidence to him.

31:34.520 --> 31:40.400
When he comes back and he says,
I don't think Jesus died on the cross,

31:40.500 --> 31:41.300
you ask him why.

31:42.040 --> 31:44.560
And if he says, well the evidence is just
not strong enough.

31:44.920 --> 31:48.780
Like I said before, you cannot show him
anything from that point forward.

31:48.960 --> 31:50.780
There's nothing he will agree with if you
didn't agree with that.

31:51.700 --> 31:54.580
But if he comes back and says,
I don't agree that he died on the cross,

31:54.660 --> 32:00.400
and you say why, he says, I admit the
historical evidence is in your favor,

32:01.080 --> 32:03.300
but it just doesn't fit my image of Jesus.

32:04.160 --> 32:08.500
I would have to be convinced of a lot more
in order to think that he died on the

32:08.500 --> 32:08.840
cross.

32:09.860 --> 32:12.600
So I'll concede that the evidence is in
your favor.

32:12.940 --> 32:15.840
If he says that, then you've got someone
you can start reasoning with.

32:17.940 --> 32:23.300
So a question is often asked to me,
when I share the gospel with Muslims,

32:23.380 --> 32:24.780
it's so difficult I don't get any headway.

32:26.020 --> 32:27.400
You know, should I be talking about these
things?

32:27.460 --> 32:28.680
Should I be discussing these things?

32:30.080 --> 32:33.400
I never, by the way, suggest stop being
friends with that person, stop witnessing.

32:33.600 --> 32:37.240
I say stop discussing these issues with
them if they're not showing a willingness

32:37.240 --> 32:38.540
to hear you out.

32:39.620 --> 32:42.820
Still share the love of Christ with them,
still walk with them, still be friends

32:42.820 --> 32:45.840
with them, but the issue of discussion
might need to come to a close,

32:45.920 --> 32:48.700
at least for a while, until they can be a
little bit more intellectually honest.

32:49.520 --> 32:50.120
Does that make sense?

32:52.020 --> 32:53.180
That's because it's airtight.

32:53.340 --> 32:54.440
There's no two ways about it.

32:54.520 --> 32:57.400
History is absolutely clear about Jesus'
death on the cross.

32:57.520 --> 33:00.480
If a Muslim wants to believe he did not
die, he has to concede that it's a

33:00.480 --> 33:04.540
theological presupposition, not a
conclusion of the evidence.

33:06.140 --> 33:10.100
The argument for Jesus' deity,
though, it's still very strong.

33:10.220 --> 33:12.480
Though not airtight, it's still very
strong.

33:15.490 --> 33:17.930
Chapter 5, verse 72 of the Quran,
we talked about it earlier.

33:18.050 --> 33:21.630
This is where you find out that if you
believe Jesus is God, you will go to hell.

33:22.650 --> 33:26.950
They surely disbelieve who say,
lo, Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary.

33:27.870 --> 33:32.310
The Messiah himself said, O children of
Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your

33:32.310 --> 33:32.610
Lord.

33:33.290 --> 33:38.330
Lo, whoso ascribes partners unto Allah,
for him has Allah forbidden paradise.

33:39.050 --> 33:40.010
His abode is the fire.

33:41.050 --> 33:43.050
For evildoers there will be no helpers.

33:43.850 --> 33:44.610
What is this saying?

33:45.930 --> 33:48.530
They are the disbelievers who say Jesus is
God.

33:49.110 --> 33:52.470
For them is hell, paradise has been
forbidden.

33:53.490 --> 33:57.970
So shirk here, those who disbelieve here,
that's the word there is mushrik,

33:58.090 --> 33:58.910
those who commit shirk.

33:59.730 --> 34:03.630
Shirk, the unforgivable sin, is here
defined as believing Jesus is God.

34:05.310 --> 34:07.190
Chapter 5, verse 116, I mentioned it
earlier.

34:08.730 --> 34:13.570
And when Allah says, O Jesus, son of Mary,
did you say unto mankind, take me and my

34:13.570 --> 34:15.970
mother for two gods beside Allah?

34:17.650 --> 34:18.870
He said, be glorified.

34:19.050 --> 34:21.690
It was not mine to utter that,
to which I had no right.

34:22.030 --> 34:23.790
If I used to say it, then you would have
known it.

34:24.450 --> 34:27.530
You know what was in my mind and what is
not in my mind.

34:28.090 --> 34:33.230
So Jesus essentially is asked,
are you saying, did you say, to worship

34:33.230 --> 34:36.150
you and your mother Mary alongside me?

34:37.010 --> 34:43.530
So the image of Trinity here is one where
it's father, mother, and son.

34:46.070 --> 34:46.810
Very interesting.

34:51.820 --> 34:54.860
So that's what the Quran says,
that's how the Quran depicts the deity of

34:54.860 --> 34:55.540
Jesus Christ.

34:56.460 --> 35:00.900
That he denied it and that he would never
have said it and this was something that

35:00.900 --> 35:01.900
they said after him.

35:06.360 --> 35:10.500
Now I don't use this approach when I argue
the deity of Christ with non-Muslims.

35:10.600 --> 35:11.600
I use a different approach.

35:11.720 --> 35:16.880
But when I'm talking about the deity of
Christ with Muslims, I focus on a holistic

35:16.880 --> 35:17.940
gospel message.

35:19.720 --> 35:23.900
I think the case for the deity of Christ
is made far stronger when we involve Paul.

35:24.440 --> 35:27.420
I think it approaches airtight when we
involve Paul.

35:28.580 --> 35:31.640
When we're just looking at the Gospels,
I say it's very strong.

35:33.900 --> 35:37.420
But Muslims will often want to go to the
Gospels and they distrust Paul.

35:37.700 --> 35:39.240
They think Paul hijacked the religion.

35:40.120 --> 35:41.980
They've got to pin the blame on someone,
right?

35:42.000 --> 35:43.160
They can't pin it on the disciples.

35:43.260 --> 35:46.120
We saw in chapter 3, verse 55,
the disciples are uppermost.

35:46.240 --> 35:47.500
So they can't pin the blame on the
disciples.

35:47.860 --> 35:49.080
They can't pin the blame on Jesus.

35:49.440 --> 35:52.200
Someone corrupted Christianity and
corrupted it early on.

35:52.400 --> 35:53.080
Who could it be?

35:53.380 --> 35:55.680
Ah, here's a man who's persecuting
Christians.

35:55.940 --> 35:56.920
He never saw Jesus.

35:57.300 --> 36:01.020
All of a sudden he accepts Christ and he's
preaching his gospel and other people are

36:01.020 --> 36:02.260
preaching Gospels against him.

36:02.740 --> 36:04.260
This man must have hijacked Christianity.

36:04.420 --> 36:05.140
He's untrustworthy.

36:05.760 --> 36:06.200
Paul.

36:06.600 --> 36:10.300
So Muslims, especially Muslim polemicists,
hate Paul.

36:11.780 --> 36:16.260
And to try to quote 1st Corinthians or
Philippians 2 or anything like that to

36:16.260 --> 36:19.140
show the deity of Christ would be moot
with them.

36:19.860 --> 36:22.300
On the flip side, they're generally okay
with the Gospels.

36:22.960 --> 36:24.080
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

36:24.920 --> 36:28.860
You've got some Muslim scholars who are
beginning to move away from that.

36:29.220 --> 36:31.920
Shabir Ali, for example, has espoused Bart
Ehrman's approach.

36:32.720 --> 36:37.120
Bart Ehrman argues that the Gospels have
an evolution of Christology.

36:37.660 --> 36:41.320
Mark being the lowest in Christology,
John being the highest in Christology,

36:41.820 --> 36:42.860
that they were evolving.

36:43.740 --> 36:48.380
Shabir Ali has kind of embraced that
approach and so he won't take all the

36:48.380 --> 36:48.700
Gospels.

36:48.720 --> 36:51.540
He won't take John when discussing the
deity of Christ.

36:53.500 --> 36:55.500
Generally speaking, though, Muslims will
take all four.

36:56.200 --> 36:57.480
I'll address that in a moment.

36:58.980 --> 36:59.940
Shabir Ali's approach.

37:01.380 --> 37:05.800
So when I discuss with Muslims,
I will say when you're talking about the

37:05.800 --> 37:09.940
Gospels, it's easy to see that Jesus
claims to be God from four different

37:09.940 --> 37:10.340
angles.

37:10.840 --> 37:12.340
So we take a four-pronged approach here.

37:13.160 --> 37:19.680
What Jesus said and what Jesus did,
what others said about Jesus and what

37:19.680 --> 37:21.040
others did about Jesus.

37:21.440 --> 37:24.840
These things only make sense if Jesus is
claiming to be God.

37:25.520 --> 37:26.440
What are we talking about?

37:27.660 --> 37:33.220
Well, first and foremost, what matters
most to Muslims is what Jesus said.

37:33.320 --> 37:35.280
They want to hear Jesus say, I am God.

37:35.760 --> 37:37.540
And you will hear that objection a lot.

37:37.620 --> 37:39.480
Where does Jesus say, I am God,
worship me?

37:42.660 --> 37:45.840
As a Muslim, when I was looking into these
issues, the thing that convinced me was

37:45.840 --> 37:47.540
Mark chapter 14, verse 62.

37:50.320 --> 37:52.480
I wanted to see it in the earliest of the
Gospels.

37:53.580 --> 37:59.140
And here's Mark showing Jesus being
interrogated by the high priest.

38:00.360 --> 38:03.480
The high priest says, are you the Christ,
son of the Blessed One?

38:04.460 --> 38:06.240
And Jesus' response is, I am.

38:06.820 --> 38:10.040
And you will see the Son of Man sitting at
the right hand of the power and coming

38:10.040 --> 38:10.940
with the clouds of heaven.

38:12.060 --> 38:17.460
Here you have at least two, if not three,
divine references all at once.

38:18.160 --> 38:20.220
The questionable one is the I am response.

38:20.660 --> 38:25.040
Here in Mark, it's questionable,
but we've seen Jesus say, I am,

38:25.140 --> 38:27.860
in John especially, where it's not
questionable at all.

38:29.360 --> 38:32.960
Jesus' response in John chapter 8 to the
Jews.

38:33.100 --> 38:37.200
The Jews are saying to him, you are not
yet even 50 years old, yet you claim to

38:37.200 --> 38:38.160
have seen Abraham.

38:39.040 --> 38:43.460
Jesus' response is not, hey, I'm just
talking figuratively.

38:44.160 --> 38:45.260
That's not his response.

38:46.180 --> 38:48.540
It's not, no, no, no, no, no, you didn't
cast me right.

38:49.000 --> 38:50.460
He says, I tell you the truth.

38:50.920 --> 38:53.720
Before Abraham was born, I am.

38:54.960 --> 38:59.020
There is no way to interpret that verse
apart from a divine I am statement.

38:59.940 --> 39:01.340
What are these divine I am statements?

39:01.460 --> 39:03.580
They're found in Exodus chapter 3 verse
14.

39:04.360 --> 39:10.580
To begin with, Moses is talking to God in
the burning bush, and he doesn't want to

39:10.580 --> 39:13.040
call God Bush.

39:14.980 --> 39:18.760
So he says to him, who shall I say has
sent me?

39:18.820 --> 39:19.260
What's your name?

39:19.340 --> 39:21.920
And understand, in those days,
especially preliterate dynamics,

39:22.100 --> 39:22.980
you gotta keep these in mind.

39:23.780 --> 39:25.920
In those days, names really mattered.

39:26.100 --> 39:27.340
There was power in a name.

39:27.780 --> 39:29.040
You would pray in a name.

39:29.300 --> 39:31.040
You would do rituals in a name.

39:32.140 --> 39:35.400
Your deity's power was often shown through
their name.

39:35.540 --> 39:37.200
And so he wanted to know God's name.

39:37.780 --> 39:39.580
He said, who shall I say has sent me?

39:39.780 --> 39:40.840
When I go talk to the Hebrews.

39:41.480 --> 39:45.280
And God's response, I am that I am,
or I am who I am.

39:45.580 --> 39:46.700
Tell them I am has sent you.

39:47.200 --> 39:48.300
God's like, my name doesn't matter.

39:48.360 --> 39:49.440
What matters is that I am God.

39:49.480 --> 39:50.000
I'm eternal.

39:51.100 --> 39:52.240
I am self-subsisting.

39:52.280 --> 39:53.020
I am that I am.

39:54.300 --> 39:58.240
And from that point forward in the Old
Testament, God uses the I am to propound

39:58.240 --> 40:00.280
his sovereignty multiple times.

40:01.420 --> 40:03.120
Especially Isaiah 40 through 55.

40:05.260 --> 40:07.940
God says over and over again, I am,
I am.

40:08.020 --> 40:09.600
That's how he propounds his sovereignty.

40:12.260 --> 40:14.420
Moses asks God, who are you?

40:14.500 --> 40:15.900
And he responds with I am.

40:16.300 --> 40:19.300
Here in Mark, the high priest asked Jesus,
who are you?

40:19.400 --> 40:20.860
And Jesus responds with the I am.

40:23.540 --> 40:26.560
I wouldn't think that that was an I am
statement, by the way.

40:26.620 --> 40:29.160
Because the question was, are you the
Christ?

40:29.280 --> 40:30.620
And Jesus responds, I am.

40:31.300 --> 40:37.500
But I hesitate, because Mark chapter 6
verse 50 has another I am statement.

40:38.720 --> 40:42.820
Here Jesus is walking on the water,
something that the Old Testament says only

40:42.820 --> 40:43.700
Yahweh can do.

40:46.080 --> 40:47.180
Job chapter 9.

40:48.560 --> 40:55.560
And the disciples are afraid, and Jesus
comes up to the disciples and he says,

40:55.940 --> 40:57.500
take courage, ego eimi.

40:58.140 --> 40:59.960
Take courage, I am.

41:00.920 --> 41:06.620
So here's Jesus doing something that only
God can do, and he's giving courage to the

41:06.620 --> 41:09.060
disciples by saying the words,
I am.

41:10.800 --> 41:13.580
A very divine context, a very divine
statement.

41:14.020 --> 41:19.440
By the way, we have a similar statement in
Psalms, I believe, where God, Yahweh,

41:19.580 --> 41:25.420
passes over the waters and gives courage
to Israel by saying, I am.

41:27.000 --> 41:29.860
Strong parallel, or at least a parallel.

41:30.200 --> 41:33.260
If you want to be careful in our
scholarship here, it's at least a

41:33.260 --> 41:33.460
parallel.

41:34.000 --> 41:38.600
And so the I am statement in Mark 14,
62, if it stood alone, I would say

41:38.600 --> 41:39.660
probably not an I am statement.

41:39.760 --> 41:40.980
He's just responding to the question.

41:41.300 --> 41:42.920
But you've got Mark 6, 50 here.

41:43.940 --> 41:48.980
Plus a scholar by the name of Raymond
Brown, in his Death of the Messiah,

41:49.900 --> 41:53.780
volume two or one, I don't remember which
one it was.

41:53.840 --> 41:54.860
It was Death of the Messiah.

41:55.680 --> 42:02.860
He says that John, in using the I am
statements, probably has a historical

42:02.860 --> 42:06.800
basis because Mark has something
reminiscent of that.

42:08.620 --> 42:11.020
So even some scholars are saying there's
something here.

42:11.600 --> 42:12.340
There's something here.

42:12.880 --> 42:16.060
And we would hesitate to say it's a legit
I am statement, but there is something

42:16.060 --> 42:16.320
there.

42:17.680 --> 42:19.520
Let's say it's not an I am statement.

42:19.720 --> 42:21.100
What's the rest of the verse say?

42:22.200 --> 42:26.600
Jesus says, you will see the Son of Man
sitting at the right hand of the power and

42:26.600 --> 42:27.800
coming with the clouds of heaven.

42:28.760 --> 42:32.500
All right, now we have definitely two
references to the Old Testament.

42:32.620 --> 42:33.960
There's no question that these are
references.

42:34.400 --> 42:37.620
One's almost a quotation, the Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven.

42:38.260 --> 42:39.280
What's the reference here?

42:40.660 --> 42:43.480
Daniel chapter 7, verses 13 and 14.

42:44.360 --> 42:49.660
Here in Daniel, Jesus is looking in,
Daniel is looking in the sky and he has

42:49.660 --> 42:51.340
just seen a vision of the Ancient of Days.

42:51.480 --> 42:54.120
There's the Ancient of Days sitting on the
throne being worshipped by angels.

42:54.200 --> 42:57.020
The Ancient of Days, the God, the Father,
he's sitting there on the throne being

42:57.020 --> 42:57.300
worshipped.

42:58.260 --> 43:03.400
And then Daniel says, and I looked in my
night visions and behold, one like a Son

43:03.400 --> 43:05.400
of Man approached the Ancient of Days.

43:05.920 --> 43:09.200
Okay, so it's one who looks like a Son of
Man approaching the Father.

43:10.160 --> 43:14.000
And to him, not the Father, and to the Son
of Man, the one who looked like a Son of

43:14.000 --> 43:17.240
Man, was given glory, power, and a
kingdom.

43:18.200 --> 43:21.260
People of every nation and language will
serve him.

43:22.180 --> 43:25.020
This kingdom is one that will not pass
away and be destroyed.

43:26.020 --> 43:30.160
Wait a minute, so there's a father sitting
on the throne, you've got someone who

43:30.160 --> 43:33.100
looks like a human, that's what it means,
the one who looked like a Son of Man,

43:33.780 --> 43:37.260
who's given glory and the kingdom of
heaven for all eternity.

43:37.960 --> 43:41.140
And in that kingdom, people of every
nation and language are going to serve

43:41.140 --> 43:41.560
him?

43:42.200 --> 43:44.040
What kind of service of this is this?

43:44.940 --> 43:49.700
You look at the word service in the Hebrew
there, it's pelah, I guess it would be in

43:49.700 --> 43:50.080
the Aramaic.

43:50.840 --> 43:54.840
And in the Greek, the Septuagint,
the word is letruo.

43:56.220 --> 44:01.020
Every single time the word letruo is used
in the Septuagint and in the New

44:01.020 --> 44:04.720
Testament, it's used of a service due only
to God.

44:06.280 --> 44:08.080
This service is due only to God.

44:08.180 --> 44:12.000
Same with the the word pelah, it's due
only to God.

44:13.200 --> 44:18.600
There's one instance in the book of Romans
where it was given to someone other than

44:18.600 --> 44:21.340
God and God became furious because it was
due to him.

44:24.530 --> 44:29.650
But here, we have that service being given
to one who looks like a Son of Man.

44:30.850 --> 44:36.810
He's gonna be worshipped, served as it
were, by all people of all nations in his

44:36.810 --> 44:38.230
own kingdom for all eternity.

44:39.050 --> 44:43.930
By the way, he's coming on the clouds,
the Son of Man, and only God is introduced

44:43.930 --> 44:45.950
in the Old Testament as coming on the
clouds.

44:47.270 --> 44:48.870
So the entrance is a divine entrance.

44:55.630 --> 44:59.310
Jesus, when he calls himself the Son of
Man throughout the Gospels, he calls

44:59.310 --> 45:02.770
himself the Son of Man over 80 times if
you count all four Gospels.

45:04.290 --> 45:07.210
Nobody else ever calls Jesus the Son of
Man, not once.

45:07.750 --> 45:12.710
There's one occasion in the book of John
where people say, who is this Son of Man?

45:13.670 --> 45:14.190
That's it.

45:14.750 --> 45:16.970
I mean, that's as close as they get to
calling him the Son of Man.

45:18.610 --> 45:22.190
So the term Son of Man here is used
explicitly by Jesus.

45:23.430 --> 45:29.690
It doesn't exist before... let me put it
this way.

45:30.170 --> 45:33.130
They weren't expecting the Messiah to call
himself the Son of Man.

45:33.790 --> 45:36.050
No one was expecting the Messiah to call
himself the Son of Man.

45:36.630 --> 45:40.610
And after Jesus, no one no one refers to
him as the Son of Man afterwards.

45:40.810 --> 45:42.830
They're not going around calling the Son
of Man, they're calling the Christ.

45:44.950 --> 45:46.190
Why does that matter?

45:47.390 --> 45:51.270
That Jesus called himself the Son of Man
passes the criterion of double

45:51.270 --> 45:55.110
dissimilarity, or the criterion of
dissimilarity as it were.

45:55.970 --> 46:02.690
This criterion is the most stringent
criterion used by historians to determine

46:02.690 --> 46:04.330
whether Jesus actually said something.

46:05.630 --> 46:07.270
The most stringent one there is.

46:07.830 --> 46:09.330
There's nothing more stringent than that.

46:15.830 --> 46:18.930
So that Jesus called himself the Son of
Man is virtually certain.

46:23.380 --> 46:24.480
Bart Ehrman disagrees with it.

46:25.320 --> 46:25.780
He's Bart.

46:28.710 --> 46:31.390
And then we got the statement that you're
sitting at the right hand of God.

46:33.910 --> 46:34.810
What does that mean?

46:35.290 --> 46:37.830
Well this is a reference to Psalm 110
verse 1.

46:38.830 --> 46:43.910
Psalm 110 verse 1, David's writing the
psalm, it says the Lord said to my Lord,

46:44.850 --> 46:48.270
sit at my right hand and I shall make the
enemies a footstool for your feet.

46:48.730 --> 46:49.710
What's the big deal here?

46:50.590 --> 46:55.430
No one in the Second Temple Period was
ever portrayed as sitting at the right

46:55.430 --> 46:56.050
hand of God.

46:56.590 --> 46:57.290
No one.

46:58.470 --> 47:01.510
The reason why is to say that you're
sitting at the right hand of God

47:01.510 --> 47:05.270
essentially means you're sitting on his
throne alongside him, which means you're

47:05.270 --> 47:09.370
co-sovereign, you're co-heir, you are in
charge with God.

47:09.430 --> 47:13.330
If you're sitting on his right hand,
that means you are entitled to the same

47:13.330 --> 47:14.590
things God is entitled to.

47:16.730 --> 47:19.950
You might not have the same office,
he's first, you're second, but his

47:19.950 --> 47:21.130
substance is shared with you.

47:21.990 --> 47:22.730
You're a co-heir.

47:23.990 --> 47:27.450
And people recognized that at that time
and that's why they never depicted anyone

47:27.450 --> 47:28.230
sitting with God.

47:28.290 --> 47:31.710
Now they had people standing, some people
had Moses standing at the right hand of

47:31.710 --> 47:35.110
God, some people had Ezra standing at the
right hand of God, but no one ever put

47:35.110 --> 47:38.430
anyone sitting at the right hand of God in
the Second Temple Period.

47:40.830 --> 47:46.830
This is probably the most convincing of
the statements here to show exactly what

47:46.830 --> 47:47.530
Jesus was saying.

47:49.190 --> 47:51.130
At first I found the Son of Man stuff more
convincing.

47:51.270 --> 47:54.570
The more I look into this, the more I
realized that sitting at the right hand of

47:54.570 --> 48:01.210
power is even stronger, which is why by
the way, Christians quoted this verse of

48:01.210 --> 48:05.390
the Old Testament, Psalm 110 verse 1,
they quoted this more than anything else

48:05.390 --> 48:06.070
in the New Testament.

48:06.430 --> 48:09.550
24 times this verse is quoted in the New
Testament.

48:11.270 --> 48:14.530
It meant a lot to them at a very early
phase in Christian history.

48:16.330 --> 48:21.670
We see it in Matthew as well, when Jesus
is asking them, he's asking the people,

48:22.230 --> 48:26.870
who do you think is superior, David or the
Messiah?

48:27.630 --> 48:29.010
And then he quotes this.

48:29.690 --> 48:32.610
So we find it throughout the Gospels.

48:33.590 --> 48:38.630
So right here, by the way, when Jesus says
that he can sit at the right hand of God,

48:38.710 --> 48:40.350
do you understand the image that's being
drawn here?

48:40.790 --> 48:46.070
You've got the Holy of Holies,
which is kind of the inner sanctum,

48:46.130 --> 48:48.490
it's a reflection of God in heaven,
correct?

48:49.650 --> 48:50.690
You guys with me?

48:50.930 --> 48:51.430
Am I losing you?

48:51.570 --> 48:52.250
Do we need to take lunch?

48:52.790 --> 48:55.210
Okay, so you got the you got the Holy of
Holies.

48:55.570 --> 48:59.690
This is kind of the reflection of God's
place in heaven.

49:00.750 --> 49:02.470
What is the throne?

49:02.770 --> 49:05.850
What is the reflection of the throne in
the Holy of Holies?

49:08.410 --> 49:11.090
The mercy seat, the Ark of the Covenant.

49:12.810 --> 49:17.610
Jesus is saying that he can go into the
Holy of Holies and sit on the Ark of the

49:17.610 --> 49:17.830
Covenant.

49:20.730 --> 49:23.830
Yeah, yeah, that's where Hebrews gets a
lot of its Christology from.

49:25.210 --> 49:26.910
Hebrews does quote Psalm 110 verse 1.

49:27.750 --> 49:29.390
Now let's stop and think about this for a
second.

49:29.590 --> 49:30.770
He's talking to the high priest.

49:30.830 --> 49:31.610
Who's the high priest?

49:31.910 --> 49:36.630
This is the guy who can only go into the
Holy of Holies once a year, on the Day of

49:36.630 --> 49:37.010
Atonement.

49:37.430 --> 49:40.790
And when he does that, he wears a rope
around his leg in case he accidentally

49:40.790 --> 49:43.250
does something blasphemous and they have
to drag his dead body out.

49:45.070 --> 49:46.710
That is the guy he's talking to.

49:46.770 --> 49:49.350
He says, I can march in there right now
and sit down right on that throne.

49:52.450 --> 49:54.230
He's not saying anything light here.

49:54.310 --> 49:55.590
He is going all out.

49:56.410 --> 50:01.930
So in Jesus' words then, Mark 14,
62, he claims to be the I Am, if you think

50:01.930 --> 50:02.590
that's strong enough.

50:02.790 --> 50:06.470
Definitely claims to be the Son of Man
coming on the clouds and definitely claims

50:06.470 --> 50:07.910
to be sitting at the right hand of the
power.

50:08.910 --> 50:10.850
Potentially a threefold claim to deity.

50:11.230 --> 50:16.030
I am the God of Moses, I am the God of
Daniel, and I am the God of David.

50:16.890 --> 50:20.610
Which is why they rip open their robes and
they say, what more reason is there to

50:20.610 --> 50:21.250
question this man?

50:21.290 --> 50:22.730
He's committed blasphemy before all of
you.

50:23.130 --> 50:24.030
Let's crucify him.

50:27.150 --> 50:30.150
Abundantly clear that Jesus here claims to
be divine.

50:34.520 --> 50:36.560
People who argue with that, for example,
Bart Ehrman.

50:36.820 --> 50:42.680
I keep bringing up Ehrman, not because
he's, you know, my punching bag,

50:42.800 --> 50:46.340
but because he was my professor at UNC,
and so I got to interact with him a lot.

50:48.600 --> 50:51.540
I asked him, I said, what do you think of
Mark 14, 62?

50:52.700 --> 50:54.140
He says, it doesn't make sense.

50:54.600 --> 50:55.900
And I said, what do you mean it doesn't
make sense?

50:56.280 --> 50:59.320
He said, in order for this verse to make
sense, Mark would have to think Jesus

50:59.320 --> 51:00.000
claimed to be God.

51:01.900 --> 51:03.920
Yes, yes.

51:04.820 --> 51:05.980
And he says it doesn't make sense.

51:06.140 --> 51:08.820
Mark doesn't know what he's talking about,
is what Ehrman says.

51:10.740 --> 51:14.980
Ehrman, in order to get around that,
Ehrman says that Mark said that,

51:16.120 --> 51:18.280
or Mark had an improper view of blasphemy.

51:19.280 --> 51:21.200
He says Mark had an improper view of
blasphemy.

51:21.300 --> 51:22.480
This wasn't actually blasphemous.

51:23.380 --> 51:26.200
Mark was actually thinking that claiming
to be the Messiah was blasphemous,

51:26.280 --> 51:29.700
and therefore he was crucified for
blasphemy.

51:30.640 --> 51:34.340
Whereas claiming to be the Messiah was not
blasphemous in that time, we know that.

51:34.400 --> 51:37.020
There are all kinds of people who claim to
be the Messiah, and they were beaten

51:37.020 --> 51:40.040
often, they were considered stupid,
and they were let go, but they weren't

51:40.040 --> 51:41.320
crucified for blasphemy.

51:42.000 --> 51:44.940
You're only crucified for blasphemy for
either uttering the divine name,

51:45.020 --> 51:48.240
or according to Philo, for according
divine prerogatives for yourself.

51:49.520 --> 51:53.500
So Ehrman says he thought that claiming to
be the Messiah was blasphemy.

51:53.600 --> 52:01.220
No, no, Mark knew that claiming divine
prerogatives for yourself is blasphemy,

52:01.460 --> 52:03.300
and that's what he's showing Jesus doing.

52:05.440 --> 52:06.480
Okay, anyhow.

52:08.700 --> 52:11.640
So that's what Jesus said, and there's a
lot more that we could put in there,

52:11.740 --> 52:13.820
but I focus on Mark 14, 62.

52:14.720 --> 52:16.700
What did Jesus do to this end?

52:17.440 --> 52:19.580
Well, according to the Gospels,
he forgave sins.

52:20.680 --> 52:24.920
Mark chapter 2, so that you may know the
Son of Man has authority on earth to

52:24.920 --> 52:27.480
forgive sins, he said to the paralytic,
I say to you, arise.

52:28.480 --> 52:29.560
Chapter 2, verse 10 of Mark.

52:30.880 --> 52:33.640
He heals a paralytic, forgiving him his
sins.

52:34.660 --> 52:36.780
What did everyone respond at that time?

52:36.860 --> 52:40.540
What did the scribes and Pharisees,
I think it was, in that event,

52:40.620 --> 52:42.200
what did they respond by saying?

52:42.580 --> 52:43.780
This man blasphemes.

52:44.500 --> 52:45.960
This man blasphemes.

52:49.140 --> 52:50.360
Why are they saying that?

52:50.580 --> 52:54.200
Because Jesus is according a divine
prerogative for himself, the forgiveness

52:54.200 --> 52:54.820
of sins.

52:57.620 --> 52:59.920
In addition, Jesus does miracles in his
own name.

53:01.500 --> 53:05.420
He will, lepers will come to him,
and they will say, can you cleanse us?

53:05.620 --> 53:08.940
Two lepers come to him in Matthew,
I think it's chapter 8, and they say,

53:09.000 --> 53:09.780
can you cleanse us?

53:09.940 --> 53:13.460
And he says, do you believe that I can do
this?

53:14.260 --> 53:15.520
And they say, yes.

53:15.840 --> 53:18.100
And he says, by your faith it shall be
done.

53:18.920 --> 53:19.660
Faith in whom?

53:20.620 --> 53:21.280
In him.

53:21.440 --> 53:22.700
He said, do you believe I can do this?

53:23.060 --> 53:25.500
He's doing this miracle in his own name.

53:26.320 --> 53:27.660
And that's extremely important.

53:27.760 --> 53:30.460
You don't see anyone doing that in the Old
Testament.

53:30.600 --> 53:32.660
You don't see Elijah doing a miracle in
his own name.

53:33.040 --> 53:34.700
You don't see Elisha doing a miracle in
his own name.

53:34.760 --> 53:36.320
They're doing it in Yahweh's name.

53:37.740 --> 53:38.880
Jesus does it in his own name.

53:41.420 --> 53:42.960
What do others say about Jesus?

53:43.340 --> 53:45.140
Okay, what do you have John saying about
Jesus?

53:45.260 --> 53:51.660
You have John saying that Jesus is the
Word of God, and that he is God.

53:51.800 --> 53:52.500
John chapter 1.

53:53.180 --> 53:55.480
And that nothing came into being except
through him.

53:57.620 --> 54:00.080
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among
us.

54:00.100 --> 54:01.980
He makes it abundantly clear that he's
talking about Jesus.

54:02.640 --> 54:05.720
And then in verse 18, he says that Jesus
is the only begotten God.

54:06.680 --> 54:07.380
John 1.18.

54:09.000 --> 54:11.560
So John makes it very clear that Jesus is
God.

54:13.020 --> 54:14.080
And so does Thomas.

54:14.160 --> 54:17.040
At the end of John's Gospel, Thomas bows
down.

54:17.120 --> 54:18.340
I believe it's 2028.

54:19.240 --> 54:22.240
He bows down and says to Jesus,
my Lord and my God.

54:25.060 --> 54:26.020
Kuriasmu kaitheasmu.

54:27.120 --> 54:29.160
The same construction is used in Psalms.

54:30.220 --> 54:35.360
It's inverted, but it's referring to
Yahweh, my Lord and my God.

54:35.440 --> 54:36.740
My God and my Lord in Psalms.

54:37.840 --> 54:39.100
Here it's made really clear.

54:39.540 --> 54:42.760
In fact, some people believe that this is
the climax of John's Gospel.

54:43.480 --> 54:47.540
The proclamation from Thomas that Jesus is
God.

54:51.620 --> 54:53.120
And what is it others did about Jesus?

54:53.320 --> 54:55.400
Okay, well this only makes sense if Jesus
claimed to be God.

54:55.440 --> 54:56.780
You have some people who worshipped him.

54:57.800 --> 55:01.400
We see the disciples worshipping him in
the boat, proskuneo.

55:02.260 --> 55:08.740
You see... well there are plenty who bow
down to Jesus and the word proskuneo can

55:08.740 --> 55:09.640
be translated worship.

55:11.500 --> 55:13.120
Muslims will often respond to that,
by the way.

55:13.260 --> 55:15.820
They'll say, look in the Old Testament,
people are bowing down before others.

55:15.960 --> 55:17.340
Proskuneo means just bow down.

55:17.460 --> 55:19.280
They didn't actually worship him,
they just bowed down.

55:20.380 --> 55:24.160
Well, not necessarily, because what does
Matthew and Luke say?

55:24.660 --> 55:28.640
They say, you must worship the Lord your
God and serve him only.

55:29.400 --> 55:30.340
I believe that's 410.

55:33.560 --> 55:36.460
Jesus says, you must worship the Lord your
God and serve him only.

55:37.760 --> 55:40.460
Well, the word worship there, you must
worship the Lord your God only,

55:41.000 --> 55:41.840
that's proskuneo.

55:42.820 --> 55:47.020
So Jesus says, don't bow down to anyone,
which is exactly why in Acts you see,

55:47.380 --> 55:52.360
when people start bowing down to Paul and
Barnabas, that they rip their clothes and

55:52.360 --> 55:54.020
they say, we are not gods, don't do that.

55:55.260 --> 55:59.340
When Cornelius bows down before Peter,
he says, don't do that, I'm just like you.

56:00.420 --> 56:03.860
And John, in the book of Revelation,
when he bows down to the angel,

56:04.320 --> 56:07.040
the angel says, no, no, no, I'm just a
servant, don't bow down to me,

56:07.120 --> 56:11.060
don't proskuneo, because Jesus said,
you must proskuneo to God alone.

56:11.420 --> 56:16.000
And yet, people bow down to Jesus in the
Gospels, and he was fine with that.

56:17.740 --> 56:22.660
In fact, in 2028, in John, when Thomas
does that, he says, it's about time.

56:25.580 --> 56:28.440
On the other hand, those who were against
Jesus, what did they do?

56:28.860 --> 56:30.700
They crucified him for blasphemy.

56:32.140 --> 56:33.900
Well, what was blasphemy at the time?

56:34.880 --> 56:39.940
You can read Daryl Bach's work on
blasphemy, it's probably the most

56:43.780 --> 56:49.760
comprehensive, I think it's called
Blasphemy and Exaltation in Judaism.

56:50.280 --> 56:51.180
I think that's the name of his book.

56:51.960 --> 56:56.680
A shorter work is by Adela Yarborough
Collins, called The Blasphemy in Mark

56:56.680 --> 56:57.380
1462.

56:57.720 --> 56:58.640
Both very good works.

57:00.320 --> 57:01.640
What was blasphemy at the time?

57:01.920 --> 57:07.080
It was either uttering the divine name,
Yahweh, that would be blasphemy at that

57:07.080 --> 57:12.240
time, or it was according divine
prerogatives to yourself.

57:12.760 --> 57:13.800
And we get that through Philo.

57:14.560 --> 57:19.800
Philo's writing, in his writings,
he indicated that simply saying that you

57:19.800 --> 57:23.300
have things that belong only to God is
considered blasphemy.

57:27.370 --> 57:30.250
P-H-I-L-O.

57:33.560 --> 57:36.860
One of my favorite scholars on this issue
is Richard Bauckham, and if you can,

57:36.940 --> 57:39.960
he has a small book called God Crucified.

57:40.480 --> 57:42.240
Small book, quick to read.

57:42.760 --> 57:46.720
What he points out is that Jesus is
claiming for himself, and the early

57:46.720 --> 57:52.500
Christians claim for Jesus, those
attributes, specifically those attributes

57:52.500 --> 57:55.620
which distinguish Yahweh from everything
else.

57:56.780 --> 58:01.040
So he says there are two things which
distinguish Yahweh from everything else.

58:01.760 --> 58:03.260
Creator and sovereign.

58:04.460 --> 58:05.800
Creator and sovereign.

58:06.440 --> 58:10.700
And he says in early Christianity,
both titles were ascribed to Jesus.

58:11.320 --> 58:12.640
Creator and sovereign.

58:14.080 --> 58:15.880
And his work, I think, is pretty
convincing.

58:16.080 --> 58:21.060
He has a parallel, slightly different,
but Larry Hurtado.

58:21.160 --> 58:23.020
So Richard Bauckham is the first guy.

58:23.640 --> 58:27.160
B-A-U-C-K-H-A-M.

58:27.160 --> 58:29.340
Richard Bauckham, just retired out of
Edinburgh.

58:32.330 --> 58:33.390
God Crucified.

58:39.360 --> 58:41.640
Actually, it was Larry Hurtado,
just retired out of Edinburgh.

58:42.180 --> 58:43.000
And Larry Hurtado.

58:43.300 --> 58:44.480
Read Larry Hurtado as well.

58:46.820 --> 58:50.940
The one I would read, probably the
shortest and most concise, is How on Earth

58:50.940 --> 58:52.200
Did Jesus Become God?

58:53.940 --> 58:55.440
It's a tongue-in-cheek title.

58:57.960 --> 59:01.420
Larry Hurtado, H-U-R-T-A-D-O.

59:02.680 --> 59:08.860
Larry Hurtado argues that the titles
accorded to Jesus... wait, I'm sorry,

59:08.940 --> 59:09.520
that was Bauckham.

59:10.080 --> 59:14.980
Larry Hurtado argues that the rituals
performed in Jesus' name, the actions that

59:14.980 --> 59:20.520
were performed, those are something that
were only for God.

59:21.620 --> 59:26.500
So for example, baptism, communion.

59:27.040 --> 59:29.060
These were actions that were done for God
alone.

59:29.200 --> 59:34.900
And the fact that we see them in 1
Corinthians 11, and we see it in pre-New

59:34.900 --> 59:39.360
Testament writings, I'll explain that in a
moment, shows that they did it extremely

59:39.360 --> 59:39.960
early on.

59:40.420 --> 59:45.900
So Hurtado and Bauckham, two extremely
well-respected scholars, Hurtado and

59:45.900 --> 59:50.620
Bauckham both, very well-respected,
argued early deity of Jesus Christ,

59:50.760 --> 59:53.360
early high Christology, and they do so
very convincingly.

59:54.960 --> 59:56.880
Both just retired, though, it's kind of
sad.

01:00:04.220 --> 01:00:05.140
Any questions on that?

01:00:05.180 --> 01:00:06.340
I saw some hands and some confusion.

01:00:08.620 --> 01:00:10.380
General aura of confusion emanating.

01:00:12.860 --> 01:00:16.460
One last thing I want to look at,
though, is the early history of the New

01:00:16.460 --> 01:00:16.800
Testament.

01:00:19.660 --> 01:00:20.700
Why did I put this here?

01:00:22.140 --> 01:00:23.480
Oh, I shouldn't put this here.

01:00:24.620 --> 01:00:25.740
Oh well, I'll do it anyway.

01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:33.020
Let's take a look and stop for a second at
some of the earliest stuff.

01:00:33.160 --> 01:00:36.860
So what I just gave you was an argument
from the Gospels for Muslims.

01:00:37.560 --> 01:00:38.900
Okay, so we think about it for a second.

01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:41.780
Muslims are okay with the Gospels,
generally speaking.

01:00:42.120 --> 01:00:46.740
Some of them are not okay with John,
like Shabir Ali, but they're okay with the

01:00:46.740 --> 01:00:47.680
Gospels in general.

01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:49.380
That's why I gave you that case.

01:00:49.720 --> 01:00:54.180
But let's stop and let's take a look at
the case holistically, not just from a

01:00:54.180 --> 01:00:54.820
Muslim perspective.

01:00:55.200 --> 01:00:57.020
Let's look at the case for the deity of
Jesus Christ.

01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:01.140
We have in our possession, and this is
extremely critical for you to know,

01:01:01.200 --> 01:01:04.600
if you're interested in New Testament
studies and apologetics in the least,

01:01:04.720 --> 01:01:05.520
you need to know this.

01:01:07.520 --> 01:01:13.080
In the New Testament, there are references
to hymns and creeds that were written

01:01:13.080 --> 01:01:14.620
before the New Testament was written.

01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:16.340
What do I mean by that?

01:01:16.340 --> 01:01:20.260
Certain things are found in the New
Testament that are quotes that had been

01:01:20.260 --> 01:01:21.060
composed earlier.

01:01:21.720 --> 01:01:25.280
One of the most famous of those is 1
Corinthians 15, verses 3 to 8,

01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:29.660
where Paul says, for what I received,
I deliver to you as a first importance,

01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:34.260
that Jesus died on the cross for our sins,
according to the Scriptures, etc.

01:01:34.720 --> 01:01:39.120
And he says that he was raised and he
appeared to Peter and to the disciples,

01:01:39.640 --> 01:01:43.260
and then to the 500, and then last of all
to me as one untimely born.

01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:44.760
What is Paul doing?

01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:49.660
Well according to the Jesus Seminar,
so these aren't folks who are evangelicals

01:01:49.660 --> 01:01:54.720
to say the least, according to the Jesus
Seminar, what Jesus is doing, I'm sorry,

01:01:54.840 --> 01:01:58.620
what Paul is doing is he's quoting
something that he received from the

01:01:58.620 --> 01:02:00.400
disciples early on.

01:02:01.080 --> 01:02:06.780
So early in fact, that it probably comes
from the first 10 years of Christian

01:02:06.780 --> 01:02:09.540
history, and that's a very conservative
statement.

01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:13.620
John, I'm sorry, James D.G.

01:02:13.700 --> 01:02:21.160
Dunn, in his book Jesus Remembered,
says that this section of the New

01:02:21.160 --> 01:02:25.400
Testament, so this creed from 1
Corinthians 15, 3 through 8, is no later

01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:28.280
than a few months after Jesus'
crucifixion.

01:02:30.680 --> 01:02:31.520
And James D.G.

01:02:31.560 --> 01:02:32.620
Dunn is no one to mess with either.

01:02:33.380 --> 01:02:35.260
Very highly respected New Testament
scholar.

01:02:36.520 --> 01:02:41.820
So months after the crucifixion,
how many months?

01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:43.140
One year?

01:02:43.300 --> 01:02:43.860
18 months?

01:02:45.020 --> 01:02:48.240
I don't think he would have said the word
months if he meant more than two years.

01:02:49.660 --> 01:02:55.920
So I asked Michael Kona what he thought
and he thinks that it couldn't be any

01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:56.860
later than 18 months.

01:02:58.040 --> 01:03:02.020
Then again we could just email Dr. Dunn,
see what he says.

01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:07.880
So we have this creed which mentions the
death of Jesus on the cross and his

01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:13.660
resurrection within 18 months of Jesus'
death, according to Dunn, and no one says

01:03:13.660 --> 01:03:15.260
any later than 40 A.D.

01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:20.860
No one I've read, and O'Connell also says
he doesn't know, and he's a scholar,

01:03:21.220 --> 01:03:25.720
he doesn't know anyone who puts it later
than 40 A.D.

01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:28.200
And you can get a lot of this from
Habermas' book in the back.

01:03:29.520 --> 01:03:32.420
We also have a creed in Philippians 2,
verses 6 through 11.

01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:36.940
Here Paul is quoting a hymn.

01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:41.900
If you read Philippians carefully,
Paul's going through and he's saying,

01:03:42.040 --> 01:03:45.700
be humble, stop trying to put yourselves
above one another, start serving each

01:03:45.700 --> 01:03:45.940
other.

01:03:46.340 --> 01:03:49.880
And then he says, your attitude should be
like that of Christ who, although he

01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:53.520
existed in the form of God, did not
consider equality with God a thing to be

01:03:53.520 --> 01:03:53.980
grasped.

01:03:54.520 --> 01:03:55.420
And so he emptied himself.

01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:58.840
And so you have this picture of the
kenosis, the divine emptying of God,

01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:01.920
to the point of becoming a human and dying
on the cross.

01:04:02.860 --> 01:04:08.220
And then because of this, God raises him
up, and he exalts him, and at the name of

01:04:08.220 --> 01:04:11.140
Jesus, every knee shall bow, in heaven and
on earth and under the earth, and every

01:04:11.140 --> 01:04:12.960
tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is
Lord.

01:04:14.140 --> 01:04:15.180
Well, what's going on here?

01:04:16.880 --> 01:04:20.520
Paul's writing to the Philippians,
and in the middle of writing to them,

01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:22.360
he quotes a hymn.

01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:27.720
How can he quote it unless he knows that
they already know it?

01:04:28.340 --> 01:04:31.880
Which means he's either said it to them
before, or he told it to them when he

01:04:31.880 --> 01:04:32.760
established the church.

01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:38.320
Well, if he said it to them when he
established the church, that means it was

01:04:38.320 --> 01:04:39.620
composed even before that.

01:04:41.020 --> 01:04:45.760
So this hymn, in Philippians 2,
6 through 11, is extremely early.

01:04:47.180 --> 01:04:47.980
How early?

01:04:48.900 --> 01:04:55.540
Some people have argued that you can
retrovert this hymn into Aramaic.

01:04:56.400 --> 01:05:03.400
If you put it in Aramaic, it forms a hymn
of five stanzas, three lines each,

01:05:04.180 --> 01:05:04.700
with meter.

01:05:06.720 --> 01:05:09.540
There's one intrusion in there,
even death on a cross doesn't fit the

01:05:09.540 --> 01:05:09.760
scheme.

01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:14.060
Other than that, the rest of it fits
perfectly, according to some scholars.

01:05:14.620 --> 01:05:21.680
If that is the case, if this hymn was
actually composed in Aramaic, we probably

01:05:21.680 --> 01:05:24.200
have the earliest teaching of the
Christian church.

01:05:26.580 --> 01:05:34.060
Jesus was in very nature God, and he
lowered himself to the point of a man,

01:05:34.340 --> 01:05:36.640
died on the cross, and then was raised.

01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:38.680
He was exalted, is what it says.

01:05:39.320 --> 01:05:42.300
And at the name of Jesus, every knee shall
bow in heaven and on earth and under the

01:05:42.300 --> 01:05:43.180
earth, and every tongue confess.

01:05:44.260 --> 01:05:47.140
That's a quotation from Isaiah,
which describes Yahweh.

01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:51.380
In Isaiah, it says every knee will bow and
every tongue will confess to Yahweh.

01:05:51.900 --> 01:05:56.020
Here, it's saying it will happen to Jesus
in a creed, which may have come from the

01:05:56.020 --> 01:05:58.740
Aramaic-speaking church, as early as it
gets.

01:05:58.840 --> 01:05:59.920
It doesn't get any earlier.

01:06:04.340 --> 01:06:09.740
There are also arguments that Mark's
passion narrative is extremely early.

01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:15.840
I plan on covering this later,
but I'll cover it now.

01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:22.200
In Mark's passion narrative, you can get
this, by the way, from Gerd Theisen,

01:06:22.360 --> 01:06:30.840
G-E-R-D, Gerd Theisen, T-H-E-I,
T-H-E-I-S-S-E-N, Gerd Theisen,

01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:31.600
he's a German scholar.

01:06:33.080 --> 01:06:36.980
Gerd Theisen argues that in Mark's passion
narrative, you have names that are

01:06:36.980 --> 01:06:38.040
conspicuously missing.

01:06:39.100 --> 01:06:44.940
For example, in the Garden of Gethsemane,
somebody strikes the ear of the High

01:06:44.940 --> 01:06:45.280
Priest.

01:06:46.480 --> 01:06:48.360
I'm sorry, the ear of a servant of the
High Priest.

01:06:49.060 --> 01:06:49.800
Who is it?

01:06:50.760 --> 01:06:51.660
It's kind of important.

01:06:52.120 --> 01:06:52.860
It would be good to know.

01:06:53.720 --> 01:06:55.900
We find out in one of the later Gospels
that it's Peter.

01:06:56.440 --> 01:06:57.800
Why isn't it said in Mark's time?

01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:05.480
Okay, why don't we get the name of the
servant in Mark's Gospel, in Mark's

01:07:05.480 --> 01:07:05.980
passion narrative?

01:07:06.180 --> 01:07:08.080
And who is this boy who runs away naked?

01:07:08.720 --> 01:07:09.540
What's that about?

01:07:10.640 --> 01:07:12.340
You know, who is this guy?

01:07:12.580 --> 01:07:13.560
Why don't we get his name?

01:07:13.600 --> 01:07:14.720
You really want to know his name.

01:07:14.780 --> 01:07:15.600
You want to know who he is.

01:07:16.500 --> 01:07:18.480
You know, and so why don't we know who it
is?

01:07:18.560 --> 01:07:19.540
Why is the name not given?

01:07:20.160 --> 01:07:25.320
Gerd Theisen argues that Mark didn't
provide these names for protective

01:07:25.320 --> 01:07:26.020
anonymity.

01:07:29.320 --> 01:07:33.620
If he were to say Peter was the person who
struck the ear, guess what?

01:07:34.380 --> 01:07:37.200
They would go get Peter, because they were
still looking for him.

01:07:37.540 --> 01:07:38.860
They still wanted to know who did it.

01:07:39.300 --> 01:07:43.380
If they say this was the boy who evaded
police arrest, they would go get him,

01:07:43.820 --> 01:07:45.160
because he was still wanted.

01:07:46.240 --> 01:07:50.060
If they said Malchus was the name of the
servant, they would go ask him,

01:07:50.180 --> 01:07:50.860
who cut off your ear?

01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:55.220
And he'd be able to point to the right
person.

01:07:56.260 --> 01:08:00.520
So according to Gerd Theisen, the reason
why the names are not mentioned is because

01:08:00.520 --> 01:08:05.680
this is so early that it could be not
mentioned for reasons of protective

01:08:05.680 --> 01:08:06.160
anonymity.

01:08:08.020 --> 01:08:11.200
Richard Bauckham takes the argument
further, and I think convincingly so,

01:08:11.680 --> 01:08:13.560
in his book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses.

01:08:14.360 --> 01:08:15.940
Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the
Eyewitnesses.

01:08:17.380 --> 01:08:21.360
He says that you have names that are
present that are rather stark.

01:08:22.400 --> 01:08:26.240
We take a look at, for example,
Bartimaeus.

01:08:26.420 --> 01:08:28.200
Why in the world is blind Bartimaeus's
name mentioned?

01:08:28.240 --> 01:08:30.140
There's a ton of blind people who are
healed.

01:08:30.260 --> 01:08:31.780
Why was Bartimaeus's name mentioned?

01:08:33.220 --> 01:08:39.560
You also have, in the passion narrative,
you've got Simon of Cyrene mentioned,

01:08:39.680 --> 01:08:44.060
and he's mentioned in the other Gospels
too, but here it says, whose sons are

01:08:44.060 --> 01:08:47.260
Rufus and Alexander, in Mark 15.

01:08:48.580 --> 01:08:50.120
Why mention Rufus and Alexander?

01:08:52.320 --> 01:08:54.160
I mean, the other Gospels didn't mention
him.

01:08:54.220 --> 01:08:55.820
Matthew, Luke, they don't mention Rufus
and Alexander.

01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:57.540
Why does Mark mention Rufus and Alexander?

01:08:58.720 --> 01:08:59.220
Any ideas?

01:09:02.350 --> 01:09:03.470
Go talk to him.

01:09:03.950 --> 01:09:05.870
Mark is saying, hey, you guys know Rufus
and Alexander?

01:09:06.130 --> 01:09:07.530
Their dad was Simon of Cyrene.

01:09:07.630 --> 01:09:08.770
Go ask him about this.

01:09:09.950 --> 01:09:11.290
That's what Richard Bauckham is saying.

01:09:11.390 --> 01:09:15.690
Simon of Alexander's sons are still around
to verify the claim that's being made.

01:09:16.310 --> 01:09:21.210
Bartimaeus is still around to verify that
he was healed, therefore their names are

01:09:21.210 --> 01:09:21.570
mentioned.

01:09:22.590 --> 01:09:24.130
That's what Richard Bauckham argues.

01:09:24.810 --> 01:09:28.710
Richard Bauckham is very interested in
onomastics, the study of names.

01:09:30.050 --> 01:09:31.410
So you can read his work on that.

01:09:32.510 --> 01:09:34.150
It's in Jesus and the Eyewitnesses.

01:09:35.930 --> 01:09:36.890
Very interesting.

01:09:37.370 --> 01:09:38.730
So what are we saying here?

01:09:38.850 --> 01:09:41.930
We're saying the Passion Narrative is so
early that some people are still wanted,

01:09:42.070 --> 01:09:44.330
and some people who are there are still
around.

01:09:46.910 --> 01:09:50.390
There are other reasons to think Mark's
Passion Narrative is extremely early.

01:09:51.250 --> 01:09:55.450
Many of the elements of Mark's Passion
Narrative are found in Paul's works.

01:09:56.030 --> 01:10:00.850
For example, 1 Corinthians 11 talks about
the Last Supper, which is in Mark 14.

01:10:02.370 --> 01:10:05.590
You have, on the night he was handed over
in 1 Corinthians.

01:10:07.090 --> 01:10:12.930
That kind of assumes that the people Paul
is talking to have already heard this

01:10:12.930 --> 01:10:15.250
story of a night that Jesus was handed
over.

01:10:16.470 --> 01:10:16.590
Right?

01:10:17.230 --> 01:10:20.230
He says on the night he was handed over to
the Corinthians, he thinks that they

01:10:20.230 --> 01:10:21.350
already know what he's talking about.

01:10:22.530 --> 01:10:23.870
And that's what Mark talks about.

01:10:23.970 --> 01:10:25.690
There was a night in which Jesus was
betrayed.

01:10:26.730 --> 01:10:28.170
Jesus' suffering in Paul.

01:10:28.290 --> 01:10:29.870
Paul makes it very clear that Jesus
suffered.

01:10:30.630 --> 01:10:32.050
Mark talks a lot about Jesus' suffering.

01:10:32.970 --> 01:10:37.010
So you've got a lot of parallels between
Paul's writings and Mark's Passion

01:10:37.010 --> 01:10:40.210
Narrative, which make you think that
Mark's Passion Narrative was extremely

01:10:40.210 --> 01:10:40.470
early.

01:10:40.530 --> 01:10:45.630
For all these reasons, Mark's Passion
Narrative can be dated, potentially,

01:10:46.270 --> 01:10:51.350
not with a lot of confidence, but with
some confidence, to an early, early date.

01:10:52.070 --> 01:10:53.710
Perhaps even in the 40s or 50s.

01:10:54.430 --> 01:10:55.450
Maybe even in the 30s.

01:10:55.530 --> 01:10:57.150
There's one argument that it was in the
30s.

01:10:57.670 --> 01:11:05.250
I don't know about this, but the argument
is who mentions Caiaphas' name?

01:11:06.930 --> 01:11:07.370
Matthew.

01:11:08.110 --> 01:11:09.230
Who doesn't mention it?

01:11:09.370 --> 01:11:09.650
Mark.

01:11:10.470 --> 01:11:13.570
When Mark says the High Priest,
why doesn't he say the High Priest

01:11:13.570 --> 01:11:14.170
Caiaphas?

01:11:15.490 --> 01:11:18.810
The argument goes, because Caiaphas was
still the High Priest.

01:11:19.790 --> 01:11:21.410
So all he had to say was the High Priest.

01:11:22.170 --> 01:11:23.290
And they knew who he was talking about.

01:11:23.290 --> 01:11:26.130
Well, Caiaphas stopped being the High
Priest in 37 AD.

01:11:27.510 --> 01:11:33.870
So if that argument is sound, then Mark's
Passion Narrative is before 37 AD.

01:11:35.830 --> 01:11:36.730
How early?

01:11:36.810 --> 01:11:37.170
Who knows?

01:11:37.270 --> 01:11:39.330
But it's really early according to these
arguments.

01:11:40.310 --> 01:11:42.550
And definitely predates the actual writing
of Mark.

01:11:43.170 --> 01:11:44.390
So what do we have?

01:11:46.190 --> 01:11:51.850
We have the earliest layer of Christian
history in the New Testament.

01:11:52.370 --> 01:11:54.450
And what do those layers proclaim?

01:11:55.490 --> 01:11:58.890
1 Corinthians 15, 3-8 proclaims the death
and resurrection of Jesus.

01:11:59.570 --> 01:12:03.570
Philippians 2, 6-11 proclaims the death,
deity, and resurrection of Jesus.

01:12:04.290 --> 01:12:04.810
And Mark?

01:12:05.130 --> 01:12:06.950
Death, deity, and resurrection of Jesus.

01:12:08.190 --> 01:12:14.310
The earliest layer of Christian history in
the New Testament proclaims exactly those

01:12:14.310 --> 01:12:17.390
things we ought to believe in order to be
saved, according to Romans 10-9.

01:12:18.910 --> 01:12:19.350
Coincidence?

01:12:19.810 --> 01:12:20.670
I don't think so.

01:12:23.270 --> 01:12:25.530
This is good to know for your own personal
edification.

01:12:25.950 --> 01:12:27.850
This is also good to know for Islamic
apologetics.

01:12:28.650 --> 01:12:32.450
If you're going to converse with Muslims,
it's good to be able to say with

01:12:32.450 --> 01:12:36.750
confidence the earliest level of Christian
history is that which proclaims the deity

01:12:36.750 --> 01:12:39.770
of Christ, his death on the cross,
and his resurrection from the grave.

01:12:40.890 --> 01:12:45.330
That is precisely the things that Muslims
don't want early Christianity to proclaim.

01:12:46.610 --> 01:12:51.490
Biola University offers a variety of
biblically-centered degree programs,

01:12:51.850 --> 01:12:55.430
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01:12:56.310 --> 01:13:01.250
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