WEBVTT 00:00.800 --> 00:07.520 We are in our course on the top 25 most influential reformers of the 16th century. 00:07.720 --> 00:09.020 There I got it all into one phrase. 00:10.060 --> 00:13.360 And we are on number 19 now, Andreas Karlstad. 00:13.540 --> 00:18.240 So we have made our way through pretty much all the Anabaptists, so we won't be 00:18.240 --> 00:20.780 talking about Anabaptists much anymore in this course. 00:21.140 --> 00:26.480 Now we're getting into Lutherans and Reformed Church and the English Church and 00:26.480 --> 00:30.720 all that kind of stuff, which makes up the bulk of the rest of the list. 00:31.260 --> 00:37.780 So Andreas Karlstad is kind of, in some ways, the forgotten man of the 00:37.780 --> 00:38.400 Reformation. 00:39.320 --> 00:48.120 I think he got, I think he was treated poorly by Martin Luther and his reputation 00:48.120 --> 00:48.760 suffered. 00:49.240 --> 00:55.460 I don't think it was especially fair, but if he's up there looking down now he 00:55.460 --> 00:59.180 can take solace in the fact that I did mention him in my course. 01:00.180 --> 01:01.940 You thought he was treated unfairly? 01:02.320 --> 01:03.600 Somebody remembered him. 01:04.320 --> 01:11.740 He's born in 1486 in Karlstad, Franconia, so he's a good German. 01:12.200 --> 01:18.360 Studied in 1499 at the University of Erfurt and then in 1503 at the University 01:18.360 --> 01:19.060 of Cologne. 01:19.380 --> 01:19.900 He was 13! 01:19.900 --> 01:26.480 Very educated man, unlike, say, Thomas Münster or Melchior Hoffman, 01:26.580 --> 01:28.940 who were less well-educated. 01:30.720 --> 01:35.100 1510, he gets his doctorate of theology at the University of Wittenberg and he, 01:35.460 --> 01:37.320 of course, will go on to fame. 01:37.580 --> 01:40.240 Not fortune, but fame at Wittenberg. 01:40.960 --> 01:46.400 He's appointed archdeacon and the chair of the theology department, which is pretty 01:46.400 --> 01:49.480 significant if you think about what's about to happen in Wittenberg. 01:50.820 --> 01:54.860 1511, the next year he's appointed chancellor of Wittenberg University. 01:55.580 --> 01:57.340 This didn't work for me at HP. 01:57.580 --> 02:01.500 I mean, the year I joined HP, I was not made the CEO the next year. 02:01.560 --> 02:02.940 I don't know how it was for you. 02:03.060 --> 02:03.920 Yeah, not so much. 02:04.100 --> 02:05.180 Not so much. 02:06.160 --> 02:07.740 It's good working together. 02:08.500 --> 02:10.000 So, what, 25 there? 02:10.120 --> 02:10.760 Yeah, yeah. 02:11.080 --> 02:12.980 Well, he went to university when he was 13! 02:13.520 --> 02:14.720 Well, that was... 02:17.600 --> 02:21.520 1512, if we had a soundtrack, this is where it would go... 02:22.440 --> 02:27.500 1512, he awards Martin Luther his doctorate at the University of Wittenberg. 02:28.320 --> 02:33.460 So you would think these two would be affably linked from that point on, 02:33.820 --> 02:35.400 and that was not to happen. 02:37.320 --> 02:43.880 1515 to 1516, he goes on a sabbatical and studies canon law at the Sapienza in Rome. 02:43.880 --> 02:46.720 So, this is a very learned guy. 02:48.880 --> 02:54.120 April 26, 1517, inspired by the corruption he found in Rome, and he would not be the 02:54.120 --> 03:01.600 first churchman to go to Rome and discover gasp corruption, Karl Stadt nails his 151 03:01.600 --> 03:05.060 thesis to the door of the Church of All Saints, or the Castle Church. 03:05.420 --> 03:09.420 And of course, they did not become as famous as someone else who would. 03:09.820 --> 03:10.980 Where is the Castle Church? 03:11.440 --> 03:12.400 That's Spittenberg. 03:13.300 --> 03:16.380 Yeah, he's back from Rome at this point. 03:17.440 --> 03:23.340 Sometime around 1518, he writes the Scripturus, or Scripture in English of 03:23.340 --> 03:27.660 course, and he declares the Apocrypha to be non-authoritative. 03:28.080 --> 03:29.200 I'll bet that went over big. 03:29.440 --> 03:35.020 So that would be one of the early influences on taking the Apocrypha. 03:35.220 --> 03:36.440 Whoops, there's Luther's first twitch. 03:38.140 --> 03:41.300 1519, he has a Leipzig debate with Johann Eck. 03:41.300 --> 03:46.300 So now he's traveling around getting into debates with Catholic scholars, 03:46.520 --> 03:47.720 and of course, holding his own. 03:48.640 --> 03:54.120 1520, Luther and Karl Stadt are almost excommunicated by Pope Leo X. 03:54.420 --> 04:00.540 This is when Leo X issues the Bull of Excommunication, but it has an expiration 04:00.540 --> 04:07.260 date on it, and the messengers bringing it to Wittenberg from Rome are kind of slow, 04:07.260 --> 04:09.700 and by the time they get there, it has expired. 04:10.880 --> 04:15.080 Luther, of course, burns the Bull of Excommunication in front of his cheer. 04:15.380 --> 04:17.280 You have to wonder if those guys kept their job. 04:21.060 --> 04:25.840 1520 would be another done-the-done in terms of the relationship between Karl 04:25.840 --> 04:26.580 Stadt and Luther. 04:28.360 --> 04:32.980 Karl Stadt criticizes Luther's rejection of the Book of James. 04:33.100 --> 04:35.000 Now, why didn't Luther like the Book of James? 04:35.000 --> 04:39.080 Well, Luther felt that we were justified by faith and faith alone. 04:39.460 --> 04:40.440 What does James say? 04:40.560 --> 04:43.640 It says, faith without works is hollow. 04:44.520 --> 04:47.480 So, what did Luther call the Book of James? 04:47.600 --> 04:50.120 A right straw-y epistle. 04:50.280 --> 04:54.980 A right straw-y epistle, I think, were his exact words. 04:56.020 --> 04:57.200 And Karl Stadt said, no. 04:57.420 --> 05:00.600 I mean, James is as much a book of the New Testament as any other. 05:00.660 --> 05:01.560 He can't just take it out. 05:01.560 --> 05:06.320 Now, this is right after Karl Stadt had just ripped 12 books out of the Catholic 05:06.320 --> 05:06.680 Bible. 05:06.960 --> 05:09.260 So, you have to look into that. 05:10.320 --> 05:13.760 1521, Luther and Karl Stadt are officially excommunicated. 05:14.520 --> 05:18.760 And to general cheering and excitement in Wittenberg among his students. 05:22.360 --> 05:26.140 Interestingly enough, in Gewalt, I'm no doubt pronouncing that wrong, 05:26.420 --> 05:29.420 Karl Stadt denounces the use of force on behalf of the Church. 05:30.460 --> 05:36.300 Which is interesting, because what he would later be accused of by Luther is 05:36.300 --> 05:41.100 that he was in favor of mobs trashing churches, and Karl Stadt was never in 05:41.100 --> 05:43.120 favor of mobs trashing churches, ever. 05:45.100 --> 05:48.820 He also demands that all clergy be married, which is taking, of course, 05:48.940 --> 05:52.700 the opposite extreme from the Roman Catholic faith. 05:53.240 --> 05:56.020 Now, I actually, I don't agree with that. 05:56.020 --> 06:04.160 I mean, if I was the Pope of Protestantism, I wouldn't demand that all 06:04.160 --> 06:05.220 ministers be married. 06:05.640 --> 06:08.040 But I understand the thought process. 06:08.180 --> 06:13.720 How can you minister to your flock if you never have the same life experience they 06:13.720 --> 06:14.100 have? 06:14.220 --> 06:17.400 You know, family, grandchildren, and whatnot. 06:17.700 --> 06:20.560 So, I understand that I wouldn't go that far. 06:20.980 --> 06:25.600 Maybe June 1521 helps establish the Danish National Church at the request of King 06:25.600 --> 06:26.560 Christian II. 06:27.380 --> 06:29.800 So, once again, a little traveling there. 06:30.720 --> 06:35.660 These guys, one thing that hit me when I was writing this was some of these guys 06:35.660 --> 06:39.340 got around a lot more than I would have thought for 16th century. 06:39.560 --> 06:41.320 I mean, look at Belkier Hoffman. 06:41.460 --> 06:44.520 I mean, he was on the road until they arrested him. 06:45.340 --> 06:45.920 Look at Paul. 06:47.300 --> 06:48.660 These people got around. 06:49.220 --> 06:50.680 People have always gotten around. 06:50.800 --> 06:53.340 Put a lot of miles on their toes. 06:53.340 --> 07:02.920 December 25th, 1521, he performs a thoroughly Protestant communion service in 07:02.920 --> 07:03.300 Wittenberg. 07:03.800 --> 07:07.720 And we should point out, this is while Luther is in hiding in Wartburg Castle. 07:08.220 --> 07:12.000 So, one of the things that's going to lead to this problem between the two of them, 07:13.460 --> 07:19.180 Luther is away in Wartburg, so that kind of puts Karlstad in charge in Wittenberg. 07:19.400 --> 07:21.360 He makes certain decisions. 07:21.360 --> 07:26.400 Luther comes back, doesn't approve of the decisions, and that leads to the problem. 07:28.040 --> 07:32.100 1522, he writes on the removal of images, which he is in favor of. 07:32.400 --> 07:33.500 Removing them, I mean. 07:33.640 --> 07:39.740 So, he's not in favor of these elaborate paintings and roderos and whatnot, 07:40.120 --> 07:41.340 statues in churches. 07:42.960 --> 07:47.640 January 1522, Wittenberg City Council authorizes the removal of statuary and 07:47.640 --> 07:50.000 other imagery from the churches in Wittenberg. 07:50.000 --> 07:55.880 And also officially approves Karlstad's changes to the communion service. 07:56.340 --> 08:03.220 Well, remember, Luther's fighting the devil in Wartburg, and Karlstad's running 08:03.220 --> 08:05.100 the show right now. 08:06.560 --> 08:10.180 January 19, 1522, marries Anna von Mokau. 08:10.700 --> 08:15.360 January 20, 1522, Holy Roman Empire, and the Pope orders Frederick the Wise, 08:15.500 --> 08:18.740 Elector of Saxony, to undo the communion changes. 08:18.740 --> 08:24.660 And Frederick complies, so Karlstad's service is trashed at that point. 08:25.580 --> 08:30.320 March 1522, Luther returns from Wartburg Castle, and boy, is he ticked off. 08:31.160 --> 08:36.140 He doesn't approve of anything that Karlstad has done, even though it's a lot 08:36.140 --> 08:38.860 of it is stuff that you would think Luther would have approved of. 08:39.160 --> 08:42.760 But Luther didn't do it, therefore it wasn't worth doing. 08:43.440 --> 08:47.660 He preaches a series of eight sermons in which he is, I put it, not fully 08:47.660 --> 08:50.400 supportive of Karlstad and his reform. 08:52.080 --> 08:56.860 And remember, by this time, Luther has become almost a mythical figure. 08:57.480 --> 09:03.120 Luther has gone to Worms and stood ten feet away from the Emperor of the Holy 09:03.120 --> 09:05.580 Roman Empire and said, you're a poo-poo head. 09:05.940 --> 09:10.940 I mean, Luther is an international superstar by this point. 09:10.940 --> 09:17.000 And the students, they just go crazy when Luther returns, which probably would tick 09:17.000 --> 09:18.200 Karlstad off. 09:19.960 --> 09:25.580 March 12, 1522, Karlstad speaks out against icons of the Virgin Mary, 09:25.680 --> 09:30.940 so he continues on that theme of his worshiping relics and statuary and smacks 09:30.940 --> 09:32.160 of worshiping idols. 09:33.740 --> 09:37.020 1523, disavows intercession of the saints. 09:38.440 --> 09:40.060 Why are you praying to saints? 09:40.220 --> 09:40.700 They're dead people. 09:45.740 --> 09:52.100 May 1523, he becomes pastor at the Orla Munde and Thuringia Institute of Reforms, 09:52.320 --> 09:54.760 more in line with Zwingli than Luther. 09:55.460 --> 10:00.120 He also strips the churches of their ornamentation, takes a spiritual view of 10:00.120 --> 10:03.740 communion, removes music from the services, etc. 10:03.740 --> 10:09.140 Well now, Luther and him essentially are enemies. 10:09.460 --> 10:10.600 Much more aligned with Calvin. 10:10.640 --> 10:14.340 Much more aligned with Calvin, taking music out of the services, 10:14.880 --> 10:15.360 etc. 10:15.660 --> 10:19.620 Remember, Luther didn't start out to start a new denomination. 10:20.740 --> 10:24.600 He's a Catholic who wants to reform the Catholic Church. 10:24.880 --> 10:30.640 So all the bells and whistles and smells and all that, Luther, he wanted to keep 10:30.640 --> 10:31.020 them. 10:31.020 --> 10:32.080 Well, Karlstadt did. 10:34.480 --> 10:40.320 Let's see, 1524-1525, the Peasants' War in Germany, in which 100,000 plus peasants 10:40.320 --> 10:40.820 are killed. 10:40.980 --> 10:47.720 This is Thomas Münster leading his 8,000 peasants, his army, in Münster. 10:48.180 --> 10:48.940 Or not in Münster. 10:51.040 --> 10:53.240 Frankenhausen, I think is the name of the town. 10:56.840 --> 11:01.780 Under threat, Karlstadt hikes first in Rothenburg, on to Talber, and then in 11:01.780 --> 11:02.220 Wittenberg. 11:03.600 --> 11:08.440 There is no evidence whatsoever that Karlstadt supported the Peasants' Revolt. 11:09.440 --> 11:13.140 Luther blamed the Peasants' Revolt on Karlstadt, said it was all his fault. 11:13.860 --> 11:21.440 And where Luther got there, and I'm not saying this is good logic, but Luther got 11:21.440 --> 11:22.180 there with this. 11:22.980 --> 11:29.060 Luther is all for Roderos and statuary and whatnot in the churches, he's Catholic. 11:30.980 --> 11:33.160 Karlstadt's not in favor of those things. 11:33.840 --> 11:37.640 Karlstadt's more zwingly and doesn't think we should have all that stuff. 11:39.000 --> 11:43.000 The Peasants' War, one of the things they do is they go into Catholic churches and 11:43.000 --> 11:43.520 what do they do? 11:43.600 --> 11:47.040 They rip out the statuary and the Roderos and all that stuff. 11:47.040 --> 11:53.380 So in Luther's mind, it's all Karlstadt's fault that these unruly mobs that 11:53.380 --> 11:59.040 Karlstadt has nothing to do with whatsoever, that these unruly mobs are 11:59.040 --> 12:00.780 going into churches and trashing them. 12:01.140 --> 12:08.560 So Luther believes Karlstadt is at fault in all of this stuff. 12:08.580 --> 12:10.080 Well, Karlstadt's an easy target for him. 12:14.740 --> 12:16.260 Let's see... 12:16.260 --> 12:21.680 Spring 1524, Luther speaks out against Karlstadt for the first time and really 12:21.680 --> 12:22.920 turns it into a war. 12:23.780 --> 12:29.880 June 1524, Karlstadt resigns as the Archdeacon of the University of 12:29.880 --> 12:30.200 Wittenberg. 12:33.900 --> 12:39.380 August 1524, he writes several treatises on communion, one on baptism where he 12:39.380 --> 12:40.920 disavows infant baptism. 12:41.120 --> 12:43.500 You can imagine how well that goes over with Luther. 12:44.500 --> 12:47.640 Meets with Conrad Grebel and Felix Lanz in Zurich. 12:47.980 --> 12:50.440 Here I had said we weren't going to talk about the Anabaptists anymore, 12:50.680 --> 12:54.280 but they will keep popping up from time to time. 12:55.020 --> 12:55.960 And there they are. 12:57.000 --> 13:02.820 August 22nd, 1524, a showdown at the Black Bear Inn in Jena between Luther and 13:02.820 --> 13:07.600 Karlstadt, in which Luther continues to accuse Karlstadt of advocating violence, 13:08.100 --> 13:10.100 something which Karlstadt never actually did. 13:10.380 --> 13:15.040 And we actually have some of the text of this great debate. 13:15.340 --> 13:20.020 And we're going to, you know, one of you gets to be Luther, one of you gets to be 13:20.020 --> 13:20.600 Karlstadt. 13:20.920 --> 13:25.400 Or if I can only get one of you to want to talk, I could take one of the pieces. 13:29.240 --> 13:34.340 September 1524, he's exiled from Saxony by Frederick the Wise and George, 13:34.460 --> 13:35.160 Duke of Saxony. 13:35.600 --> 13:37.380 And he flees to South Germany, Switzerland. 13:37.980 --> 13:42.560 Now, why does he have to flee because of Frederick the Wise and George, 13:42.760 --> 13:43.400 Duke of Saxony? 13:43.980 --> 13:47.920 They're the only reason the Protestant Reformation has worked in Germany. 13:48.180 --> 13:53.520 It's because Luther had the secular armies and the secular princes on his side. 13:53.520 --> 13:56.220 So when they go against you, you're toast. 13:57.260 --> 14:01.560 Unless you've got the Holy Roman Emperor on your side, you're toast at that point. 14:04.720 --> 14:09.820 September 5th, 1524, Anabaptist co-founder Conrad Grebel writes approvingly of 14:09.820 --> 14:12.220 Karlstadt in a letter to Munster. 14:12.660 --> 14:17.620 Again, all this stuff is going to annoy Luther to no end. 14:19.040 --> 14:24.040 1526, Luther again targets Karlstadt and the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of 14:24.040 --> 14:25.740 Christ against the fanatics. 14:25.960 --> 14:28.840 He lumps Karlstadt in with the fanatics. 14:29.260 --> 14:32.220 Remember, this is the guy who gave him his doctorate. 14:32.460 --> 14:36.700 This is the guy who, together, they created the Protestant Reformation in 14:36.700 --> 14:37.000 Germany. 14:38.820 --> 14:45.180 1529, composes dialogues with Melchior Hoffman and Holstein on the trial of 14:45.180 --> 14:46.460 Hoffman in Flensburg. 14:46.460 --> 14:54.980 So, Karlstadt, by this point, really has left its roots with Luther and Wittenberg. 14:57.660 --> 15:03.120 1534, appointed minister of the university church in Basel and professor of Hebrew 15:03.120 --> 15:04.640 and dean of the university. 15:05.040 --> 15:09.620 So, he's back on his professional fast track here. 15:10.600 --> 15:17.160 And December 24th, 1541, he dies in Basel of bubonic plague. 15:17.800 --> 15:19.460 So, notice where he ends up. 15:19.540 --> 15:20.460 He ends up in Switzerland. 15:22.520 --> 15:25.320 Because the reformers in Switzerland all love him. 15:26.060 --> 15:29.820 And he's not getting a lot of love from Luther anymore. 15:30.320 --> 15:32.820 Well, as you said, Luther didn't want to leave the Catholic church. 15:32.900 --> 15:35.280 He was more of a puritan than he was a pilgrim. 15:35.820 --> 15:37.560 Karlstadt was a pilgrim. 15:37.560 --> 15:38.900 This is a bunch of nonsense. 15:39.740 --> 15:44.140 But Karlstadt was Luther's big rival. 15:44.340 --> 15:47.900 He's the one that really could have put a huge dent in Lutheranism. 15:48.180 --> 15:50.440 Especially intellectually. 15:50.880 --> 15:52.340 Yes, because he could compete. 15:52.500 --> 15:55.380 He was the guy who could go head-to-head all the time. 15:55.580 --> 16:00.220 So, what Luther really did was annihilate his competition. 16:00.440 --> 16:04.040 I was going to say, in order to push myself forward, I have to knock down my 16:04.040 --> 16:04.480 biggest opponent. 16:04.480 --> 16:05.180 Yes, that's really what he did. 16:07.440 --> 16:09.180 We can't both be successful. 16:09.340 --> 16:11.780 In order for one to be successful, you have to destroy the other. 16:11.780 --> 16:12.220 That's right. 16:12.440 --> 16:13.680 And that's exactly what he did. 16:17.320 --> 16:18.540 Karlstadt's very German. 16:20.760 --> 16:22.560 He's not quite Lutheran. 16:23.220 --> 16:26.700 He's kind of associated more with Lutheranism than he is with the Reformed 16:26.700 --> 16:27.040 faith. 16:27.500 --> 16:31.620 He rejected imagery in churches, except the Zwingli views on the Eucharist. 16:31.960 --> 16:33.460 So, he's not really Lutheran. 16:33.460 --> 16:37.260 He's not quite an Anabaptist, although they all loved him. 16:38.100 --> 16:39.500 He rejected infant baptism. 16:40.000 --> 16:43.420 But on the other hand, he didn't re-baptize people who had been baptized as 16:43.420 --> 16:43.860 children. 16:44.020 --> 16:45.380 So, that was a key distinction. 16:46.020 --> 16:47.660 He didn't believe in re-baptizing. 16:47.760 --> 16:51.040 He just said, let's stop the practice of infant baptism. 16:51.560 --> 16:53.860 So, he didn't go as far as the Anabaptists did. 16:54.900 --> 16:56.940 He's not quite Reformed. 16:58.460 --> 17:02.560 He rejected predestination, and he specially rejected double election. 17:03.310 --> 17:07.280 Which wasn't so much Zwingli, that really was, I think we can all agree, 17:07.340 --> 17:07.840 was Calvin. 17:08.560 --> 17:12.400 What Calvin brought to the table in the predestination discussion. 17:13.280 --> 17:17.440 So, he fit in everywhere and nowhere in the Reformation. 17:17.840 --> 17:21.960 And as often happens, people who fit in everywhere and nowhere end up getting 17:21.960 --> 17:24.540 attacked by everyone and no one. 17:24.900 --> 17:28.480 But in his case, it was really the attack from Luther that mattered. 17:28.480 --> 17:34.780 He was accepted by the Anabaptists, he was accepted by the Zwinglians. 17:36.180 --> 17:40.640 His greatest battles were with Luther, even though they started out as allies. 17:41.040 --> 17:44.840 Karlstad actually gave Luther his doctorate at Wittenberg. 17:45.800 --> 17:50.740 But during Luther's exile at Wurttemberg, Karlstad continued to preach in 17:50.740 --> 17:51.160 Wittenberg. 17:51.160 --> 17:55.740 And developed a view of the Eucharist that was published by Zwingli, and then by 17:55.740 --> 17:55.960 Luther. 17:59.520 --> 18:04.360 Karlstad approved of the removal of statuary and other imagery in churches. 18:05.080 --> 18:09.180 And there's a couple movies on Martin Luther. 18:09.380 --> 18:14.100 There's one made in 56-57, and then there's the other one with Joseph Fiannis 18:14.100 --> 18:16.080 that came out just a few years ago. 18:17.380 --> 18:23.460 And the one that was made back in the 50s, it really is unfair to Karlstad. 18:24.140 --> 18:31.620 Because what it shows is Luther returns from Wurttemberg, and it shows Karlstad 18:31.620 --> 18:36.120 egging on the peasants who then go in and trash a Catholic church. 18:36.240 --> 18:40.860 Well, as you saw on the timeline, there was a gap of like three years 18:40.860 --> 18:44.980 between when Luther returned and when the Peasants' War broke out. 18:44.980 --> 18:48.980 So, Karlstad really has been... 18:49.620 --> 18:51.120 Don't let the facts get in the way of the truth. 18:51.140 --> 18:52.820 Yeah, don't let the facts get in the way of the truth. 18:54.540 --> 18:58.500 When Luther returned from Wurttemberg, he denounced Karlstad's church reforms, 18:58.880 --> 19:00.520 and also his view on the Eucharist. 19:03.220 --> 19:07.600 Luther would unfairly accuse Karlstad of supporting violence against churches to 19:07.600 --> 19:09.560 force them to remove their statuary and imagery. 19:10.320 --> 19:12.680 Something which Karlstad never advocated. 19:14.980 --> 19:20.240 The more Luther castigated Karlstad, the closer Karlstad got to the Anabaptists 19:20.240 --> 19:21.540 and the Zwinglings. 19:23.060 --> 19:24.160 As often happens. 19:25.160 --> 19:29.900 That the people I used to think were my friends keep dissing me, and the people I 19:29.900 --> 19:36.200 thought were my enemies are, come, welcome, eventually I'm going to... come. 19:37.440 --> 19:42.640 Right where he came to head with a showdown at the Black Bear Inn. 19:42.820 --> 19:43.780 Isn't it great? 19:44.820 --> 19:47.020 Showdown at the Black Bear Inn. 19:47.380 --> 19:50.300 You could write a whole history of Protestantism with that as the title. 19:50.600 --> 19:51.600 Isn't this great? 19:52.100 --> 19:54.720 You could make a movie of a Western with the same title. 19:55.180 --> 20:01.240 August 22nd, 1524 in Thuringia, Germany is where this great debate 20:01.240 --> 20:01.660 happens. 20:02.780 --> 20:07.420 It was set up because Luther had seemingly accused Karlstad of advocating violence in 20:07.420 --> 20:09.760 a sermon given at 7 o'clock that morning. 20:10.340 --> 20:16.660 So Luther had got up in the town where Karlstad is and preaches a sermon where he 20:16.660 --> 20:20.400 accuses Karlstad of initiating violence. 20:21.220 --> 20:23.060 What are you going to do if you're Karlstad? 20:23.180 --> 20:23.900 Are you going to let him stand? 20:24.440 --> 20:26.080 Karlstad hadn't done anything. 20:26.760 --> 20:30.600 So Karlstad then goes to Luther's lodging to call on him. 20:30.860 --> 20:32.820 Knock, knock, knock. 20:33.160 --> 20:36.000 And this starts the great debate. 20:40.060 --> 20:43.200 So to sort of set it up, Karlstad complained that Luther had put him in the 20:43.200 --> 20:46.120 same catalog with seditious and murderous spirits. 20:46.840 --> 20:50.320 And that he had said that the murderous spirit at Allstad and the spirit which 20:50.320 --> 20:54.940 broke the images and laid bans upon the sacrament were one and the same spirit. 20:54.940 --> 20:58.860 That the spirit at Allstad had nothing in common with his doctrine of the sacrament. 20:59.200 --> 21:02.620 That no one after the apostles had taught on the subject as he had done, 21:03.100 --> 21:05.060 adopting the same manner of views and arguments. 21:05.640 --> 21:09.960 Luther replied that he had not made the least mention of anyone, especially not of 21:09.960 --> 21:10.480 Karlstad. 21:10.940 --> 21:15.140 But that if he considered it as applying to himself, he might apply it to himself 21:15.140 --> 21:16.120 in the name of God. 21:16.520 --> 21:22.540 After they had sharply conferred with one another, the following dialogue took 21:22.540 --> 21:22.880 place. 21:22.880 --> 21:29.100 So, you know, it's the kind of thing where you give a sermon and you give somebody's 21:29.100 --> 21:32.600 social security number and their driver's license number and you show a picture of 21:32.600 --> 21:33.300 them behind you. 21:34.160 --> 21:36.520 But then later you say, I didn't mention anybody by name. 21:36.960 --> 21:38.520 I never mentioned somebody's name. 21:39.380 --> 21:40.620 So that's basically what happened. 21:42.840 --> 21:46.860 Okay, do we have a volunteer for Luther and a volunteer for Karlstad? 21:46.960 --> 21:50.300 Because the dialogue here, this is one of the great debates of all time. 21:50.300 --> 21:56.100 This is as if Socrates and Plato had gone against each other. 21:56.820 --> 21:57.980 So do we have any volunteers? 21:59.260 --> 21:59.740 Who wants to be Luther? 21:59.740 --> 22:01.660 You have to volunteer, you or I'm going to have to do it. 22:02.500 --> 22:02.940 I'll read. 22:03.020 --> 22:03.720 So we should do it? 22:03.900 --> 22:05.760 Yeah, where am I going to stand up? 22:06.280 --> 22:07.440 Well, just get a little closer. 22:07.740 --> 22:09.440 So do you want to be Luther or Karlstad? 22:09.700 --> 22:10.740 That doesn't matter. 22:12.680 --> 22:14.000 I'll be Karlstad. 22:14.240 --> 22:14.480 Okay. 22:15.600 --> 22:21.660 What I really want people to focus on is the high intellectual content of this 22:21.660 --> 22:22.020 debate. 22:22.180 --> 22:23.520 That's what I want you to focus on. 22:25.060 --> 22:26.120 Okay, Luther. 22:26.600 --> 22:29.100 You are, after all, on the side of the new prophets. 22:29.620 --> 22:33.720 As far as they have right and truth on their side, as far as they are in the 22:33.720 --> 22:35.680 wrong, let the devil side with them. 22:36.360 --> 22:38.700 Write against me openly and not clandestinely. 22:39.080 --> 22:43.120 If I were assured that you were so anxious for it, you might have your wish. 22:43.120 --> 22:44.520 Only do so. 22:44.800 --> 22:46.080 It shall be done. 22:46.500 --> 22:47.120 Do so. 22:47.240 --> 22:49.720 I will present you a florin for the purpose. 22:50.820 --> 22:53.600 It's like tossing somebody a nickel or something. 22:54.660 --> 22:56.300 It shall be done. 22:57.380 --> 22:58.700 Oh, a florin? 22:59.880 --> 23:02.320 If I don't do so, call me a knave. 23:02.780 --> 23:05.860 Give it to me then, and I shall verily accept it. 23:07.020 --> 23:07.780 Here's a quote. 23:07.980 --> 23:09.840 I need a narrator. 23:11.040 --> 23:14.920 Luther accordingly put his hand into his pocket, and drawing forth a gold florin, 23:15.100 --> 23:19.420 he gave it to Karlstadt and said, Take it, and only boldly assail me. 23:19.720 --> 23:20.320 Don't spare. 23:20.880 --> 23:26.180 Karlstadt took the florin, and holding it up to all present, said, Dear brethren, 23:26.840 --> 23:30.120 that is a rabbo, or money taken on account. 23:30.800 --> 23:35.760 A token that I have authorized to write against Dr. Luther, and I pray you all to 23:35.760 --> 23:37.060 be witnesses for me. 23:37.580 --> 23:38.680 There is no need of it. 23:38.680 --> 23:44.320 And Karlstadt bent it and put it in his purse, reached his hand to Dr. Luther, 23:44.420 --> 23:46.180 and Dr. Luther toasted him. 23:46.280 --> 23:50.940 And Karlstadt, returning the compliment, said, Doctor, I pray you therefore not to 23:50.940 --> 23:55.260 prevent me from printing, neither to cause me any persecution or hindrance as to my 23:55.260 --> 23:59.580 livelihood, for I intend to maintain myself with a plow, and whatever the plow 23:59.580 --> 24:01.780 shall yield, you no doubt will earn. 24:02.620 --> 24:07.640 How should I wish to prevent you when I desire you to write against me? 24:07.640 --> 24:12.780 And I gave you the florin as evidence that you are not to spare me, and the more 24:12.780 --> 24:15.660 boldly you attack me, the better I shall be pleased with you. 24:17.540 --> 24:23.340 The court preacher, Wolfgang Stein, who had accompanied Luther on his journey, 24:23.820 --> 24:27.740 said to Karlstadt, The doctor shall not prevent you from gaining your livelihood, 24:28.300 --> 24:29.480 nor do you any injury. 24:30.040 --> 24:35.180 Upon which Karlstadt said, Well then, if I miss you, it shall be my damage. 24:35.180 --> 24:40.000 Thus Karlstadt returned home, and Martin, having preached, afterwards drove to 24:40.000 --> 24:40.640 college. 24:41.280 --> 24:43.340 I think that is brilliant. 24:43.880 --> 24:48.760 I had arguments like that in the 6th grade on the playground. 24:50.620 --> 24:51.560 Isn't that great? 24:51.800 --> 24:55.800 Here's the two greatest minds of the 16th century. 24:56.220 --> 24:59.580 The two greatest theologians of the 16th century. 24:59.580 --> 25:04.180 And they finally meet for this great debate, and what do they do? 25:04.340 --> 25:08.360 They sound like two 6th graders arguing over a basketball. 25:09.000 --> 25:13.100 Karlstadt is throwing a slight at Luther, because Karlstadt is the one that gave him 25:13.100 --> 25:13.940 his doctorate, right? 25:14.380 --> 25:15.380 Dr. Luther. 25:15.740 --> 25:17.500 Yeah, Dr. Luther. 25:18.980 --> 25:22.960 I just think that was marvelous when I saw it. 25:23.100 --> 25:24.320 Yeah, that's exactly what it sounds like. 25:24.320 --> 25:30.360 It is one of the debates of the ages. 25:30.620 --> 25:31.500 I mean, wow. 25:32.720 --> 25:34.360 Karlstadt was also a prolific writer. 25:35.180 --> 25:37.620 He wrote about 90 works in his lifetime. 25:38.380 --> 25:41.620 So, to sum up, Karlstadt was brilliant. 25:42.800 --> 25:44.520 Certainly everybody as brilliant as Luther. 25:45.600 --> 25:47.500 I think he was mistreated by Luther. 25:48.080 --> 25:50.300 I think there was personal jealousy involved. 25:50.300 --> 25:57.860 And I wanted to bring him out to modern audiences.