We are in our course on the top 25 most influential reformers of the 16th century.
There I got it all into one phrase.
And we are on number 19 now, Andreas Karlstad.
So we have made our way through pretty much all the Anabaptists, so we won't be
talking about Anabaptists much anymore in this course.
Now we're getting into Lutherans and Reformed Church and the English Church and
all that kind of stuff, which makes up the bulk of the rest of the list.
So Andreas Karlstad is kind of, in some ways, the forgotten man of the
Reformation.
I think he got, I think he was treated poorly by Martin Luther and his reputation
suffered.
I don't think it was especially fair, but if he's up there looking down now he
can take solace in the fact that I did mention him in my course.
You thought he was treated unfairly?
Somebody remembered him.
He's born in 1486 in Karlstad, Franconia, so he's a good German.
Studied in 1499 at the University of Erfurt and then in 1503 at the University
of Cologne.
He was 13!
Very educated man, unlike, say, Thomas Münster or Melchior Hoffman,
who were less well-educated.
1510, he gets his doctorate of theology at the University of Wittenberg and he,
of course, will go on to fame.
Not fortune, but fame at Wittenberg.
He's appointed archdeacon and the chair of the theology department, which is pretty
significant if you think about what's about to happen in Wittenberg.
1511, the next year he's appointed chancellor of Wittenberg University.
This didn't work for me at HP.
I mean, the year I joined HP, I was not made the CEO the next year.
I don't know how it was for you.
Yeah, not so much.
Not so much.
It's good working together.
So, what, 25 there?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, he went to university when he was 13!
Well, that was...
1512, if we had a soundtrack, this is where it would go...
1512, he awards Martin Luther his doctorate at the University of Wittenberg.
So you would think these two would be affably linked from that point on,
and that was not to happen.
1515 to 1516, he goes on a sabbatical and studies canon law at the Sapienza in Rome.
So, this is a very learned guy.
April 26, 1517, inspired by the corruption he found in Rome, and he would not be the
first churchman to go to Rome and discover gasp corruption, Karl Stadt nails his 151
thesis to the door of the Church of All Saints, or the Castle Church.
And of course, they did not become as famous as someone else who would.
Where is the Castle Church?
That's Spittenberg.
Yeah, he's back from Rome at this point.
Sometime around 1518, he writes the Scripturus, or Scripture in English of
course, and he declares the Apocrypha to be non-authoritative.
I'll bet that went over big.
So that would be one of the early influences on taking the Apocrypha.
Whoops, there's Luther's first twitch.
1519, he has a Leipzig debate with Johann Eck.
So now he's traveling around getting into debates with Catholic scholars,
and of course, holding his own.
1520, Luther and Karl Stadt are almost excommunicated by Pope Leo X.
This is when Leo X issues the Bull of Excommunication, but it has an expiration
date on it, and the messengers bringing it to Wittenberg from Rome are kind of slow,
and by the time they get there, it has expired.
Luther, of course, burns the Bull of Excommunication in front of his cheer.
You have to wonder if those guys kept their job.
1520 would be another done-the-done in terms of the relationship between Karl
Stadt and Luther.
Karl Stadt criticizes Luther's rejection of the Book of James.
Now, why didn't Luther like the Book of James?
Well, Luther felt that we were justified by faith and faith alone.
What does James say?
It says, faith without works is hollow.
So, what did Luther call the Book of James?
A right straw-y epistle.
A right straw-y epistle, I think, were his exact words.
And Karl Stadt said, no.
I mean, James is as much a book of the New Testament as any other.
He can't just take it out.
Now, this is right after Karl Stadt had just ripped 12 books out of the Catholic
Bible.
So, you have to look into that.
1521, Luther and Karl Stadt are officially excommunicated.
And to general cheering and excitement in Wittenberg among his students.
Interestingly enough, in Gewalt, I'm no doubt pronouncing that wrong,
Karl Stadt denounces the use of force on behalf of the Church.
Which is interesting, because what he would later be accused of by Luther is
that he was in favor of mobs trashing churches, and Karl Stadt was never in
favor of mobs trashing churches, ever.
He also demands that all clergy be married, which is taking, of course,
the opposite extreme from the Roman Catholic faith.
Now, I actually, I don't agree with that.
I mean, if I was the Pope of Protestantism, I wouldn't demand that all
ministers be married.
But I understand the thought process.
How can you minister to your flock if you never have the same life experience they
have?
You know, family, grandchildren, and whatnot.
So, I understand that I wouldn't go that far.
Maybe June 1521 helps establish the Danish National Church at the request of King
Christian II.
So, once again, a little traveling there.
These guys, one thing that hit me when I was writing this was some of these guys
got around a lot more than I would have thought for 16th century.
I mean, look at Belkier Hoffman.
I mean, he was on the road until they arrested him.
Look at Paul.
These people got around.
People have always gotten around.
Put a lot of miles on their toes.
December 25th, 1521, he performs a thoroughly Protestant communion service in
Wittenberg.
And we should point out, this is while Luther is in hiding in Wartburg Castle.
So, one of the things that's going to lead to this problem between the two of them,
Luther is away in Wartburg, so that kind of puts Karlstad in charge in Wittenberg.
He makes certain decisions.
Luther comes back, doesn't approve of the decisions, and that leads to the problem.
1522, he writes on the removal of images, which he is in favor of.
Removing them, I mean.
So, he's not in favor of these elaborate paintings and roderos and whatnot,
statues in churches.
January 1522, Wittenberg City Council authorizes the removal of statuary and
other imagery from the churches in Wittenberg.
And also officially approves Karlstad's changes to the communion service.
Well, remember, Luther's fighting the devil in Wartburg, and Karlstad's running
the show right now.
January 19, 1522, marries Anna von Mokau.
January 20, 1522, Holy Roman Empire, and the Pope orders Frederick the Wise,
Elector of Saxony, to undo the communion changes.
And Frederick complies, so Karlstad's service is trashed at that point.
March 1522, Luther returns from Wartburg Castle, and boy, is he ticked off.
He doesn't approve of anything that Karlstad has done, even though it's a lot
of it is stuff that you would think Luther would have approved of.
But Luther didn't do it, therefore it wasn't worth doing.
He preaches a series of eight sermons in which he is, I put it, not fully
supportive of Karlstad and his reform.
And remember, by this time, Luther has become almost a mythical figure.
Luther has gone to Worms and stood ten feet away from the Emperor of the Holy
Roman Empire and said, you're a poo-poo head.
I mean, Luther is an international superstar by this point.
And the students, they just go crazy when Luther returns, which probably would tick
Karlstad off.
March 12, 1522, Karlstad speaks out against icons of the Virgin Mary,
so he continues on that theme of his worshiping relics and statuary and smacks
of worshiping idols.
1523, disavows intercession of the saints.
Why are you praying to saints?
They're dead people.
May 1523, he becomes pastor at the Orla Munde and Thuringia Institute of Reforms,
more in line with Zwingli than Luther.
He also strips the churches of their ornamentation, takes a spiritual view of
communion, removes music from the services, etc.
Well now, Luther and him essentially are enemies.
Much more aligned with Calvin.
Much more aligned with Calvin, taking music out of the services,
etc.
Remember, Luther didn't start out to start a new denomination.
He's a Catholic who wants to reform the Catholic Church.
So all the bells and whistles and smells and all that, Luther, he wanted to keep
them.
Well, Karlstadt did.
Let's see, 1524-1525, the Peasants' War in Germany, in which 100,000 plus peasants
are killed.
This is Thomas Münster leading his 8,000 peasants, his army, in Münster.
Or not in Münster.
Frankenhausen, I think is the name of the town.
Under threat, Karlstadt hikes first in Rothenburg, on to Talber, and then in
Wittenberg.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Karlstadt supported the Peasants' Revolt.
Luther blamed the Peasants' Revolt on Karlstadt, said it was all his fault.
And where Luther got there, and I'm not saying this is good logic, but Luther got
there with this.
Luther is all for Roderos and statuary and whatnot in the churches, he's Catholic.
Karlstadt's not in favor of those things.
Karlstadt's more zwingly and doesn't think we should have all that stuff.
The Peasants' War, one of the things they do is they go into Catholic churches and
what do they do?
They rip out the statuary and the Roderos and all that stuff.
So in Luther's mind, it's all Karlstadt's fault that these unruly mobs that
Karlstadt has nothing to do with whatsoever, that these unruly mobs are
going into churches and trashing them.
So Luther believes Karlstadt is at fault in all of this stuff.
Well, Karlstadt's an easy target for him.
Let's see...
Spring 1524, Luther speaks out against Karlstadt for the first time and really
turns it into a war.
June 1524, Karlstadt resigns as the Archdeacon of the University of
Wittenberg.
August 1524, he writes several treatises on communion, one on baptism where he
disavows infant baptism.
You can imagine how well that goes over with Luther.
Meets with Conrad Grebel and Felix Lanz in Zurich.
Here I had said we weren't going to talk about the Anabaptists anymore,
but they will keep popping up from time to time.
And there they are.
August 22nd, 1524, a showdown at the Black Bear Inn in Jena between Luther and
Karlstadt, in which Luther continues to accuse Karlstadt of advocating violence,
something which Karlstadt never actually did.
And we actually have some of the text of this great debate.
And we're going to, you know, one of you gets to be Luther, one of you gets to be
Karlstadt.
Or if I can only get one of you to want to talk, I could take one of the pieces.
September 1524, he's exiled from Saxony by Frederick the Wise and George,
Duke of Saxony.
And he flees to South Germany, Switzerland.
Now, why does he have to flee because of Frederick the Wise and George,
Duke of Saxony?
They're the only reason the Protestant Reformation has worked in Germany.
It's because Luther had the secular armies and the secular princes on his side.
So when they go against you, you're toast.
Unless you've got the Holy Roman Emperor on your side, you're toast at that point.
September 5th, 1524, Anabaptist co-founder Conrad Grebel writes approvingly of
Karlstadt in a letter to Munster.
Again, all this stuff is going to annoy Luther to no end.
1526, Luther again targets Karlstadt and the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of
Christ against the fanatics.
He lumps Karlstadt in with the fanatics.
Remember, this is the guy who gave him his doctorate.
This is the guy who, together, they created the Protestant Reformation in
Germany.
1529, composes dialogues with Melchior Hoffman and Holstein on the trial of
Hoffman in Flensburg.
So, Karlstadt, by this point, really has left its roots with Luther and Wittenberg.
1534, appointed minister of the university church in Basel and professor of Hebrew
and dean of the university.
So, he's back on his professional fast track here.
And December 24th, 1541, he dies in Basel of bubonic plague.
So, notice where he ends up.
He ends up in Switzerland.
Because the reformers in Switzerland all love him.
And he's not getting a lot of love from Luther anymore.
Well, as you said, Luther didn't want to leave the Catholic church.
He was more of a puritan than he was a pilgrim.
Karlstadt was a pilgrim.
This is a bunch of nonsense.
But Karlstadt was Luther's big rival.
He's the one that really could have put a huge dent in Lutheranism.
Especially intellectually.
Yes, because he could compete.
He was the guy who could go head-to-head all the time.
So, what Luther really did was annihilate his competition.
I was going to say, in order to push myself forward, I have to knock down my
biggest opponent.
Yes, that's really what he did.
We can't both be successful.
In order for one to be successful, you have to destroy the other.
That's right.
And that's exactly what he did.
Karlstadt's very German.
He's not quite Lutheran.
He's kind of associated more with Lutheranism than he is with the Reformed
faith.
He rejected imagery in churches, except the Zwingli views on the Eucharist.
So, he's not really Lutheran.
He's not quite an Anabaptist, although they all loved him.
He rejected infant baptism.
But on the other hand, he didn't re-baptize people who had been baptized as
children.
So, that was a key distinction.
He didn't believe in re-baptizing.
He just said, let's stop the practice of infant baptism.
So, he didn't go as far as the Anabaptists did.
He's not quite Reformed.
He rejected predestination, and he specially rejected double election.
Which wasn't so much Zwingli, that really was, I think we can all agree,
was Calvin.
What Calvin brought to the table in the predestination discussion.
So, he fit in everywhere and nowhere in the Reformation.
And as often happens, people who fit in everywhere and nowhere end up getting
attacked by everyone and no one.
But in his case, it was really the attack from Luther that mattered.
He was accepted by the Anabaptists, he was accepted by the Zwinglians.
His greatest battles were with Luther, even though they started out as allies.
Karlstad actually gave Luther his doctorate at Wittenberg.
But during Luther's exile at Wurttemberg, Karlstad continued to preach in
Wittenberg.
And developed a view of the Eucharist that was published by Zwingli, and then by
Luther.
Karlstad approved of the removal of statuary and other imagery in churches.
And there's a couple movies on Martin Luther.
There's one made in 56-57, and then there's the other one with Joseph Fiannis
that came out just a few years ago.
And the one that was made back in the 50s, it really is unfair to Karlstad.
Because what it shows is Luther returns from Wurttemberg, and it shows Karlstad
egging on the peasants who then go in and trash a Catholic church.
Well, as you saw on the timeline, there was a gap of like three years
between when Luther returned and when the Peasants' War broke out.
So, Karlstad really has been...
Don't let the facts get in the way of the truth.
Yeah, don't let the facts get in the way of the truth.
When Luther returned from Wurttemberg, he denounced Karlstad's church reforms,
and also his view on the Eucharist.
Luther would unfairly accuse Karlstad of supporting violence against churches to
force them to remove their statuary and imagery.
Something which Karlstad never advocated.
The more Luther castigated Karlstad, the closer Karlstad got to the Anabaptists
and the Zwinglings.
As often happens.
That the people I used to think were my friends keep dissing me, and the people I
thought were my enemies are, come, welcome, eventually I'm going to... come.
Right where he came to head with a showdown at the Black Bear Inn.
Isn't it great?
Showdown at the Black Bear Inn.
You could write a whole history of Protestantism with that as the title.
Isn't this great?
You could make a movie of a Western with the same title.
August 22nd, 1524 in Thuringia, Germany is where this great debate
happens.
It was set up because Luther had seemingly accused Karlstad of advocating violence in
a sermon given at 7 o'clock that morning.
So Luther had got up in the town where Karlstad is and preaches a sermon where he
accuses Karlstad of initiating violence.
What are you going to do if you're Karlstad?
Are you going to let him stand?
Karlstad hadn't done anything.
So Karlstad then goes to Luther's lodging to call on him.
Knock, knock, knock.
And this starts the great debate.
So to sort of set it up, Karlstad complained that Luther had put him in the
same catalog with seditious and murderous spirits.
And that he had said that the murderous spirit at Allstad and the spirit which
broke the images and laid bans upon the sacrament were one and the same spirit.
That the spirit at Allstad had nothing in common with his doctrine of the sacrament.
That no one after the apostles had taught on the subject as he had done,
adopting the same manner of views and arguments.
Luther replied that he had not made the least mention of anyone, especially not of
Karlstad.
But that if he considered it as applying to himself, he might apply it to himself
in the name of God.
After they had sharply conferred with one another, the following dialogue took
place.
So, you know, it's the kind of thing where you give a sermon and you give somebody's
social security number and their driver's license number and you show a picture of
them behind you.
But then later you say, I didn't mention anybody by name.
I never mentioned somebody's name.
So that's basically what happened.
Okay, do we have a volunteer for Luther and a volunteer for Karlstad?
Because the dialogue here, this is one of the great debates of all time.
This is as if Socrates and Plato had gone against each other.
So do we have any volunteers?
Who wants to be Luther?
You have to volunteer, you or I'm going to have to do it.
I'll read.
So we should do it?
Yeah, where am I going to stand up?
Well, just get a little closer.
So do you want to be Luther or Karlstad?
That doesn't matter.
I'll be Karlstad.
Okay.
What I really want people to focus on is the high intellectual content of this
debate.
That's what I want you to focus on.
Okay, Luther.
You are, after all, on the side of the new prophets.
As far as they have right and truth on their side, as far as they are in the
wrong, let the devil side with them.
Write against me openly and not clandestinely.
If I were assured that you were so anxious for it, you might have your wish.
Only do so.
It shall be done.
Do so.
I will present you a florin for the purpose.
It's like tossing somebody a nickel or something.
It shall be done.
Oh, a florin?
If I don't do so, call me a knave.
Give it to me then, and I shall verily accept it.
Here's a quote.
I need a narrator.
Luther accordingly put his hand into his pocket, and drawing forth a gold florin,
he gave it to Karlstadt and said, Take it, and only boldly assail me.
Don't spare.
Karlstadt took the florin, and holding it up to all present, said, Dear brethren,
that is a rabbo, or money taken on account.
A token that I have authorized to write against Dr. Luther, and I pray you all to
be witnesses for me.
There is no need of it.
And Karlstadt bent it and put it in his purse, reached his hand to Dr. Luther,
and Dr. Luther toasted him.
And Karlstadt, returning the compliment, said, Doctor, I pray you therefore not to
prevent me from printing, neither to cause me any persecution or hindrance as to my
livelihood, for I intend to maintain myself with a plow, and whatever the plow
shall yield, you no doubt will earn.
How should I wish to prevent you when I desire you to write against me?
And I gave you the florin as evidence that you are not to spare me, and the more
boldly you attack me, the better I shall be pleased with you.
The court preacher, Wolfgang Stein, who had accompanied Luther on his journey,
said to Karlstadt, The doctor shall not prevent you from gaining your livelihood,
nor do you any injury.
Upon which Karlstadt said, Well then, if I miss you, it shall be my damage.
Thus Karlstadt returned home, and Martin, having preached, afterwards drove to
college.
I think that is brilliant.
I had arguments like that in the 6th grade on the playground.
Isn't that great?
Here's the two greatest minds of the 16th century.
The two greatest theologians of the 16th century.
And they finally meet for this great debate, and what do they do?
They sound like two 6th graders arguing over a basketball.
Karlstadt is throwing a slight at Luther, because Karlstadt is the one that gave him
his doctorate, right?
Dr. Luther.
Yeah, Dr. Luther.
I just think that was marvelous when I saw it.
Yeah, that's exactly what it sounds like.
It is one of the debates of the ages.
I mean, wow.
Karlstadt was also a prolific writer.
He wrote about 90 works in his lifetime.
So, to sum up, Karlstadt was brilliant.
Certainly everybody as brilliant as Luther.
I think he was mistreated by Luther.
I think there was personal jealousy involved.
And I wanted to bring him out to modern audiences.