WEBVTT 00:01.880 --> 00:06.140 DUP leader Ian Paisley was jostled, punched and then dragged out of the 00:06.140 --> 00:09.400 European Parliament today after interrupting a speech by the Pope. 00:09.840 --> 00:13.020 The disturbance came within seconds of the Pope starting to speak. 00:13.500 --> 00:18.200 Other Euro MPs responded angrily when Dr. Paisley heckled the Pope, saying he was 00:18.200 --> 00:19.080 the Antichrist. 00:20.540 --> 00:24.100 Permit me to say how much I... 00:27.620 --> 00:28.220 Stop 00:43.800 --> 00:44.980 this disturbance! 00:45.560 --> 00:46.160 Paisley 01:19.590 --> 01:23.230 claims he was punched and that he later received a personal apology from the head 01:23.230 --> 01:25.230 of security for failing to protect him. 01:26.090 --> 01:29.150 The poster stated simply, John Paul II Antichrist. 01:29.530 --> 01:33.010 A reference to the view supported by Archbishop Cranmer in Reformation times 01:33.010 --> 01:36.910 that by claiming to be God's earthly representative, Popes have usurped the 01:36.910 --> 01:37.810 position of Christ. 01:39.630 --> 01:43.050 He remained unrepentant despite being accused of being a bigot. 01:43.250 --> 01:48.090 Let me say this, if the honour of Christ is at stake, I would put my whole 01:48.090 --> 01:52.470 political career on the line for the honour of Jesus Christ and his truth. 01:52.810 --> 01:56.570 I happen to be a Protestant by conviction and I'm not going to sell my Protestant 01:56.570 --> 01:57.010 heritage. 02:00.890 --> 02:04.350 World attention was focused on the European Parliament earlier this week when 02:04.350 --> 02:08.570 the Northern Ireland MEP and leader of the DUP, Ian Paisley, denounced Pope John Paul 02:08.570 --> 02:12.310 II as the Antichrist, just as the Pope began to make his address to the 02:12.310 --> 02:15.690 Parliament, an address which looked forward to increased European unity in 02:15.690 --> 02:16.370 1992. 02:17.370 --> 02:20.210 The moderator of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, Dr. Godfrey Brown, 02:20.290 --> 02:23.470 stated earlier this year that there is no scriptural evidence for the Westminster 02:23.470 --> 02:26.370 Confession of Faith statement that the Pope is the Antichrist. 02:26.890 --> 02:30.110 The members of the Free Presbyterian Church, however, are still bound to regard 02:30.110 --> 02:31.350 the Pope as Antichrist. 02:31.830 --> 02:34.450 Reverend Ian Paisley, who is also, of course, the moderator of the Free 02:34.450 --> 02:37.710 Presbyterian Church, has addressed himself to the issue and has published an 02:37.710 --> 02:41.110 exposition called, simply, Antichrist, which he claims demonstrates from 02:41.110 --> 02:44.790 scripture, history and the Pope's own lips why the Pope is the Antichrist. 02:45.150 --> 02:48.510 Well, he is with me in the studio to discuss the issue and also with me is John 02:48.510 --> 02:50.470 Bach, who is also a theologian. 02:50.870 --> 02:55.830 John Bach, irrespective of the manner in which the evidence is presented by Ian 02:55.830 --> 02:59.450 Paisley in this book, can we address the central argument? 02:59.450 --> 03:01.610 Is his argument simply a wrong one? 03:02.130 --> 03:03.190 I think it's a dated one. 03:03.370 --> 03:05.210 Of course, the book claims to be by Ian R .K. 03:05.310 --> 03:05.990 Paisley on the cover. 03:06.110 --> 03:10.270 In fact, it's a rehash of a work produced in the last century by a man who had the 03:10.270 --> 03:13.870 amazing title of lecturer in Popery at some Protestant institute. 03:14.310 --> 03:19.230 But in the book, I find, for example, that the Pope invented sin, taught sin, 03:19.430 --> 03:23.930 enacted sin, trades in sin and is the incarnation of sin. 03:24.250 --> 03:27.850 And I have to say that I do find that really rather offensive, as I believe many 03:27.850 --> 03:28.750 Roman Catholics will. 03:28.750 --> 03:33.290 And I note that the present Anglo-Irish agreement, which is designed, as far as I 03:33.290 --> 03:36.710 can make out, to give comfort and succour to Roman Catholics who may feel they're 03:36.710 --> 03:40.430 being treated badly in the North, well, it isn't doing much to counter that. 03:40.570 --> 03:43.090 I believe that many Roman Catholic people will be hurt. 03:43.430 --> 03:47.370 And I must say, with the greatest of respect, that my study of this book, 03:47.450 --> 03:50.850 which incidentally is made up of short chapters of no more than three pages each, 03:51.130 --> 03:53.130 is an amalgam of ignorance and offensiveness. 03:53.130 --> 03:57.850 Well, Ian Paisley, you've written the book, you obviously are firmly convinced 03:57.850 --> 04:01.010 of the arguments, and that was demonstrated at the European Parliament 04:01.010 --> 04:01.790 earlier this week. 04:01.910 --> 04:02.750 What do you say to that? 04:03.330 --> 04:08.530 Well, first of all, the book makes it perfectly clear that this is a presa of 04:08.530 --> 04:09.470 Dr. G. 04:09.510 --> 04:09.630 A. 04:09.710 --> 04:12.830 Wiley's classic, which people say is the Antichrist. 04:13.010 --> 04:14.210 It makes that absolutely clear. 04:14.210 --> 04:20.570 Well, it is an exposition by me, because if Mr. Bach had read the 04:20.570 --> 04:26.010 introduction, he would have seen that there is also other material which was not 04:26.010 --> 04:27.890 from Dr. Wiley's book. 04:28.970 --> 04:31.070 Dr. Wiley is a well-known historian. 04:31.890 --> 04:39.230 His history of Protestantism is a basic work and is honoured by all historians, 04:39.810 --> 04:42.370 even those who disagree with his proposition. 04:42.370 --> 04:50.030 So, to say that because he lectured in Popery, in a very important institute in 04:50.030 --> 04:54.630 Edinburgh, which was connected with the three main Presbyterian bodies in 04:54.630 --> 04:59.190 Edinburgh, is that this man was someone to be reviled or rejected. 04:59.190 --> 05:00.870 That doesn't really stand up. 05:01.190 --> 05:06.170 But that, of course, is not the argument, because I am reminded of Lloyd George 05:06.170 --> 05:13.510 being in a tough political fight in Wales, and he was addressing a packed schoolroom 05:13.510 --> 05:16.390 of supporters, and suddenly through the window there came a stone. 05:17.510 --> 05:20.990 And the politician stopped and lifted up the stone, and he said, I don't need to 05:20.990 --> 05:21.590 argue any more. 05:21.730 --> 05:22.370 I won the argument. 05:23.110 --> 05:28.630 Because if you are not going to deal with basics, and you are only going to attack 05:28.630 --> 05:32.730 with people that put forward propositions, you are not coming to the argument. 05:32.730 --> 05:36.030 Let me come then to what Mr. Bath said. 05:36.470 --> 05:39.970 He said he didn't like what was said that the Pope invented sin. 05:40.770 --> 05:41.810 But it is a fact. 05:42.930 --> 05:50.510 Has Mr. Bath studied the volumes that the Church of Rome has issued concerning what 05:50.510 --> 05:53.770 is venial sin and what is moral sin? 05:53.770 --> 05:55.110 They have defined sin. 05:55.470 --> 06:00.630 They not only have defined sin, but they have actually said that certain 06:00.630 --> 06:05.110 things are sin, which according to the scriptures are not sin. 06:05.730 --> 06:09.330 For example, take the worship of images. 06:10.150 --> 06:14.930 The Church of Rome holds that a special worship should be given to images. 06:15.630 --> 06:20.810 The Bible holds the very opposite, and says, Thou shalt not bow thine eyes to 06:20.810 --> 06:22.370 them, nor serve them. 06:22.630 --> 06:27.010 So when this book says the Pope invented sin, and O'Reilly says that, he is 06:27.010 --> 06:27.870 speaking the truth. 06:28.010 --> 06:31.970 But you know what you are saying, it is important to take it point by point. 06:32.150 --> 06:35.510 What you said is that the Catholic Church has defined sin. 06:35.670 --> 06:38.290 There is a big difference between defining something and inventing it. 06:40.750 --> 06:47.130 To call something a sin that is not a sin, is inventing a sin. 06:47.390 --> 06:49.470 What about the Pope being the incarnation of sin? 06:49.630 --> 06:51.410 Being devious and diabolical? 06:51.710 --> 06:56.010 What about the suggestion that the Pope is a greater sinner than Judas Iscariot? 06:56.150 --> 06:58.150 That is deeply offensive to Roman Catholic people. 06:58.150 --> 07:04.330 Let me say this, that in the historical, and let's get back, I notice Mr. Bath said 07:04.330 --> 07:09.350 it was a dated position, but this is exactly what I am seeking to establish. 07:09.850 --> 07:14.970 Because when one says today that the Pope is the Antichrist, hands are raised in 07:14.970 --> 07:20.190 this ecumenical age of fudge, and people say, oh that should not be said. 07:20.190 --> 07:23.230 Mr. Bath belongs to the Church of Ireland. 07:23.910 --> 07:31.050 The Irish Articles of 1615 put it clearly that the Bishop of Rome is so far from 07:31.050 --> 07:36.230 being the supreme head of the universal Church of Christ, that his works and 07:36.230 --> 07:42.050 doctrine do plainly discover him to be that man of sin foretold in the Holy 07:42.050 --> 07:46.930 Scriptures, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and abolish 07:46.930 --> 07:48.290 with the brightness of his coming. 07:48.290 --> 07:51.450 Now no doubt that may be offensive to Roman Catholics. 07:51.910 --> 07:54.650 There are things in the Bible that are offensive to all sinners. 07:55.150 --> 07:56.350 But we have to accept them. 07:56.670 --> 08:01.330 That is the plain teaching, historically, of the Anglican Church in Ireland. 08:01.330 --> 08:05.650 As Mr. Bath very well knows, the Presbyterian Confession of Faith, 08:06.050 --> 08:09.750 and Mr. Brown, Dr. Brown may say, we don't accept it. 08:09.990 --> 08:13.470 But when he was ordained to the ministry, he was asked, did he accept it? 08:13.610 --> 08:15.990 And would he sign it as a confession of his own faith? 08:16.230 --> 08:18.730 And he did sign it as a confession of his own faith. 08:18.730 --> 08:23.370 The Savoy Confession of the Congregational Church makes the same statement. 08:23.790 --> 08:28.550 The Old Baptist Confession of 1688, and John Wesley and his notes in the New 08:28.550 --> 08:28.950 Testament. 08:29.390 --> 08:36.690 So I am contending for nothing more or nothing less than what was stated by the 08:36.690 --> 08:40.190 Reformed creeds of Protestant Christians. 08:40.190 --> 08:44.110 But John Barker, is that the official position of the Anglican Church in 08:44.110 --> 08:44.290 Ireland? 08:44.430 --> 08:47.630 Because if it is, Ian Paisley's argument would seem to hold a good deal of water. 08:48.030 --> 08:50.970 Ian Paisley is quite correct to say these are important historical formularies. 08:51.090 --> 08:53.790 They were written at the time of the Protestant Reformation, when there was a 08:53.790 --> 08:55.150 lot of persecution and martyrdom. 08:55.370 --> 08:59.790 And the real issue is whether these dated statements apply to the 20th century. 09:00.250 --> 09:04.170 And the assumption behind Ian Paisley's argument is that the Roman Catholic Church 09:04.170 --> 09:05.230 has not changed at all. 09:05.450 --> 09:08.410 And I think that's where the real intellectual debate must begin. 09:08.410 --> 09:12.350 There was a time when Roman Catholics would have absolutely nothing to do with 09:12.350 --> 09:13.410 Protestants at all. 09:13.770 --> 09:14.930 Mercifully that's changed. 09:15.210 --> 09:19.470 And as Mr Paisley surely will know, there has recently been a defection from 09:19.470 --> 09:24.050 the papacy of a right-wing theologian called Archbishop Lefebvre, who wants to 09:24.050 --> 09:25.310 go back to those days. 09:25.310 --> 09:28.070 The assumption being that the Vatican has changed. 09:28.410 --> 09:33.470 And I really don't see any purpose in resurrecting bitter and horrible days, 09:33.590 --> 09:37.190 which we should really put behind us and instead try and rediscover what love and 09:37.190 --> 09:40.130 forgiveness are, because these are pretty fundamental Christian ideals. 09:40.130 --> 09:45.090 Let me say that we are dealing here with a biblical doctrine. 09:45.850 --> 09:52.050 This doctrine set forth in the historic creeds of Christendom and in the formulas 09:52.050 --> 09:55.890 of the Reformation churches was based upon the scriptures. 09:55.890 --> 10:02.870 Now the scriptures make it clear that such an Antichrist would arise. 10:03.070 --> 10:08.550 We have the prophecies of Daniel, we have the prophecies of the Lord Jesus 10:08.550 --> 10:14.450 Christ, we have the prophecies of the Apostle Paul, and the prophecies of the 10:14.450 --> 10:15.610 Apostle John. 10:15.610 --> 10:21.430 And that the Apostle Paul has said there are certain marks that are going to 10:21.430 --> 10:23.430 distinguish the Antichrist. 10:23.690 --> 10:27.950 And it's these marks that this book is considering. 10:28.430 --> 10:32.710 This book says from the very beginning, it demonstrates from scripture, 10:33.170 --> 10:35.090 from history, and from his own lips. 10:35.090 --> 10:39.910 Now the papacy has not changed. 10:40.510 --> 10:46.510 The papacy said in Vatican II that there would be no departure from the doctrine of 10:46.510 --> 10:47.350 the Council of Trent. 10:47.490 --> 10:48.830 That's written into their documents. 10:49.130 --> 10:53.390 I debated that with a Jesuit priest at Queen's University, Father Corbusier, 10:53.570 --> 10:55.630 as you know, that was the basis of our debate. 10:55.630 --> 11:03.290 But the Pope of Rome claims to be another Christ on earth. 11:03.590 --> 11:11.930 And when he was crowned as the Pontiff, he was set up above the throne. 11:12.490 --> 11:15.510 And the Cardinals came and kissed his feet. 11:15.970 --> 11:21.630 And we have explained in this book the whole ceremony of his coronation and what 11:21.630 --> 11:22.110 it means. 11:22.110 --> 11:24.850 And what is more, I have the hundred texts of T.C. 11:24.930 --> 11:29.310 Hammond, of the Irish Church Missions, which is a Church of Ireland organization, 11:29.630 --> 11:30.690 as Mr. Bath knows. 11:31.170 --> 11:38.550 And they repeat what Pope Pius IX said, I alone, despite my unworthiness, 11:38.930 --> 11:42.330 am the successor of the Apostles, the Vicar of Christ. 11:42.930 --> 11:46.970 I alone have the mission to guide and direct the bark of Peter. 11:47.410 --> 11:50.590 I am the way, the proof, and the life. 11:50.590 --> 11:53.730 They who are with me are with the Church. 11:54.090 --> 11:57.070 And they who are not with me are out of the Church. 11:57.390 --> 12:00.230 They are out of the way, the truth, and the life. 12:00.470 --> 12:04.930 Now there is no difference between that and the present claims of the papacy. 12:05.450 --> 12:09.170 And this is the issue that we should be addressing ourselves to. 12:09.170 --> 12:14.290 If Mr. Bath can show me something in any document from Rome, I have studied every 12:14.290 --> 12:18.290 document that has been issued by the Vatican very carefully, even the one on 12:18.290 --> 12:18.970 ecumenism. 12:19.230 --> 12:25.610 And he knows perfectly well that the old human sanctum creed is still underlined in 12:25.610 --> 12:29.790 that document, that they alone are the true Church. 12:30.290 --> 12:36.490 And while others may be in some way seeking the truth, the truth is in us and 12:36.490 --> 12:37.090 in us alone. 12:37.090 --> 12:37.450 John? 12:37.790 --> 12:40.890 Well that kind of monopoly position of Rome is one which clearly as a Protestant 12:40.890 --> 12:41.590 I don't accept. 12:41.830 --> 12:44.750 But I think the important thing is neither do liberally minded Roman Catholics. 12:45.130 --> 12:46.990 And we've got to recognize that things have changed. 12:47.250 --> 12:50.810 Now I'm interested in what Ian Paisley says about Antichrist in Scripture. 12:50.810 --> 12:54.550 Now I can debate this until the cars come home. 12:54.590 --> 12:58.750 And if you look for example at the book of Daniel, to which this book alludes a great 12:58.750 --> 13:04.250 deal, the fact is that book was written at a time when a man called Antiochus 13:04.250 --> 13:08.950 Epiphanes was busy attacking Jerusalem, forbidding Jewish customs upon the plane 13:08.950 --> 13:09.370 of death. 13:09.370 --> 13:13.890 And this apocalyptic, that's the technical name, this apocalyptic literature was a 13:13.890 --> 13:17.610 way of saying don't believe any of all this, our cause is victorious. 13:17.830 --> 13:21.130 Exactly the same applies in the book of Revelation, which was written at a time of 13:21.130 --> 13:22.990 massive persecution by the Roman Empire. 13:23.350 --> 13:26.850 Now to take those statements, which quite plainly were addressed to historic 13:26.850 --> 13:31.110 figures, Antiochus Epiphanes and the Emperor Domitian, and to say somehow they 13:31.110 --> 13:35.870 apply to the papacy in the 1980s, I have to say is a far fetched and not a 13:35.870 --> 13:36.910 sound exegesis of Scripture. 13:36.910 --> 13:42.090 Well I think it is amazing to hear Mr. Bath make that statement about the book of 13:42.090 --> 13:42.410 Daniel. 13:43.050 --> 13:50.150 For the book of Daniel prophesies about four kingdoms, or four world empires that 13:50.150 --> 13:51.050 were going to come. 13:51.710 --> 13:56.350 Daniel was not dealing with the present situation at all, he was dealing with a 13:56.350 --> 13:57.950 situation that was yet to come. 13:57.950 --> 14:05.430 And anyone that reads the book will remember the great dream of the massive 14:05.430 --> 14:12.130 image with the head of gold, the breast of silver, the loins of brass, and the legs 14:12.130 --> 14:16.490 of iron, and the toes part of iron and part of clay. 14:16.490 --> 14:22.250 And Daniel prophesied clearly that there was four great world empires going to 14:22.250 --> 14:22.790 arise. 14:22.970 --> 14:28.590 There was the one at present, a thou, O king, art that head of gold. 14:28.810 --> 14:33.170 And he was referring there to the dynasty of the Babylonian Empire. 14:33.170 --> 14:36.690 Secondly, after Babylon came the Persian Empire. 14:37.050 --> 14:40.170 After the Medo-Persian Empire came the Greek Empire. 14:40.570 --> 14:45.730 After the Greek Empire came the Roman Empire, which divided to east and west. 14:46.070 --> 14:54.090 And after that came the Holy Roman Empire, the ten toes of the great figure. 14:54.090 --> 14:57.130 So, Daniel was dealing with future. 14:57.910 --> 15:02.350 And don't worry about... He wasn't a fortune teller, he was telling the future. 15:02.470 --> 15:04.190 Christ told the future. 15:04.770 --> 15:09.710 We are not dealing with fortune telling, we are dealing with heavenly prophecies, 15:09.910 --> 15:11.270 which all came true. 15:11.550 --> 15:14.170 Who was to know there was going to be four world empires? 15:14.850 --> 15:18.690 Who was to know that these things were going to happen, that Rome was going to 15:18.690 --> 15:19.890 divide in two? 15:19.950 --> 15:20.850 Who was to know that? 15:20.850 --> 15:23.970 Well, of course, I'm not going to be leaving with every scholarly book that has 15:23.970 --> 15:25.530 ever been written about Daniel and Revelation. 15:25.910 --> 15:26.950 Let me take you to another... 15:26.950 --> 15:28.890 Let me just tell you another thing. 15:29.510 --> 15:32.910 There are some of the greatest scholars even living, expound Daniel. 15:33.410 --> 15:36.150 And they take this view that I'm putting forward. 15:36.490 --> 15:39.610 What about Professor Dick Wilson of Princeton, who was one of the greatest 15:39.610 --> 15:40.610 scholars of his day? 15:40.610 --> 15:46.670 I mean, to write these people off and say, because you believe in the Bible and you 15:46.670 --> 15:50.330 believe that the Bible can tell you something that's going to happen in the 15:50.330 --> 15:54.070 future, that's one of the tests, if it is, the word of God. 15:54.350 --> 15:55.830 God knows what's going to happen in the future. 15:55.890 --> 15:58.830 I don't think that John should just write everybody off. 15:58.830 --> 16:00.370 Neither should he. 16:00.410 --> 16:03.010 I'm not prepared to write anybody off. 16:03.330 --> 16:08.270 I'm prepared to say I have established an historic view, and I'm not seeking to 16:08.270 --> 16:08.750 defend it. 16:08.830 --> 16:12.010 Now, let me take, if I may, another biblical view, because it's important we 16:12.010 --> 16:13.610 go back to basic principles. 16:14.050 --> 16:18.650 In the New Testament, you have the idea of the Antichrist being the person who denies 16:18.650 --> 16:20.010 that Jesus has come in the flesh. 16:20.210 --> 16:23.750 That is to say, the Antichrist being the denier of the Incarnation. 16:23.750 --> 16:29.250 Now, in this book by Mr. Wiley, rehashed by you, there is the suggestion 16:29.250 --> 16:31.850 that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't believe in the Incarnation. 16:32.110 --> 16:33.730 And that's surely rather far-fetched, isn't it? 16:34.810 --> 16:40.670 I think that if Mr. Bach read the book properly, he would understand that the 16:40.670 --> 16:45.550 book is dealing with the doctrines of the New Testament and putting over against 16:45.550 --> 16:49.510 those doctrines of the New Testament the doctrines of the Church of Rome. 16:50.350 --> 16:56.710 Every doctrine of Christianity has been taken by the Church of Rome and has been 16:56.710 --> 16:59.710 twisted and distorted by the Church of Rome. 16:59.790 --> 17:04.330 For instance, the Church of Rome's religion is not today the religion of the 17:04.330 --> 17:06.330 Father, it's the religion of the Mother. 17:06.330 --> 17:12.290 And the Pope himself claims to be the Holy Father. 17:12.790 --> 17:17.270 But the Bible says that we are not to call in a spiritual sense any man Father, 17:17.770 --> 17:19.150 because one is your Father. 17:19.350 --> 17:25.590 And the title Holy Father is given alone in the New Testament to God the Father. 17:25.590 --> 17:28.510 So you take the Incarnation, let's come to the Incarnation. 17:29.070 --> 17:35.670 I believe in the Incarnation and I believe in the virgin birth. 17:35.790 --> 17:38.590 I don't know whether Mr. Bach does or not, but I happen to do. 17:39.350 --> 17:45.550 And I would like to say to him, he knows perfectly well that the Church of 17:45.550 --> 17:52.270 Rome takes a different view of Mary than the Reformed and Reformation faith would 17:52.270 --> 17:52.930 take of Mary. 17:52.930 --> 17:56.490 Mary was not immaculately conceived. 17:56.950 --> 17:59.630 She was not without sin. 17:59.750 --> 18:03.730 In fact, she said, I rejoice in God my Saviour. 18:04.150 --> 18:09.490 That is what we are trying to say, that their view of the Incarnation and 18:09.490 --> 18:14.490 their view of the virgin birth is entirely different from the view that we would 18:14.490 --> 18:14.870 take. 18:14.870 --> 18:16.450 And we are entitled to do that. 18:16.530 --> 18:17.830 That is from her own books. 18:18.070 --> 18:21.110 But let's look at the claims of the Pope of Rome. 18:21.230 --> 18:21.850 Let's look at his claims. 18:22.210 --> 18:25.130 Let's take the ceremony off us, obviously. 18:25.450 --> 18:31.190 And here is, perhaps John Bach would like to dissociate himself from this too. 18:31.470 --> 18:36.650 This is one of the famous bishops of his own church, Bishop Christopher Wordsworth. 18:36.650 --> 18:40.770 The cover is perfect. 18:41.050 --> 18:44.190 That is the only argument you can put, John. 18:44.310 --> 18:44.970 You are very short. 18:53.910 --> 18:59.830 And he also gives the full ceremony of the crowning of the Pope. 19:02.830 --> 19:08.870 Take thou the tiara, adorned with the triple crown, and know that thou art the 19:08.870 --> 19:13.150 father of princes and of kings, and the governor of the world. 19:13.410 --> 19:15.090 Now, that is what the Bible was talking about. 19:15.470 --> 19:18.390 I am not a theologian, and I am no bibliophile. 19:18.710 --> 19:23.750 But I want to ask you, as someone who is neither of those two, why does it matter? 19:23.990 --> 19:27.510 Why should it matter to me whether or not the Pope is the Antichrist? 19:27.590 --> 19:28.470 That is what I do not understand. 19:28.470 --> 19:30.750 Well, I can answer that very well. 19:31.210 --> 19:34.690 The Bible has warned us about what the Antichrist is going to do. 19:35.010 --> 19:36.850 That he is going to deceive people. 19:37.390 --> 19:39.570 And that is exactly what the Pope is doing. 19:39.570 --> 19:43.450 One of the deceptions of Rome has been exposed today. 19:43.890 --> 19:45.390 The fake of the Turin Shroud. 19:46.030 --> 19:47.970 And he has deceived the people. 19:48.530 --> 19:51.830 And we have seen that on every hand, the deceptions. 19:52.290 --> 19:54.750 The Pope is not the Holy Father. 19:54.930 --> 19:55.750 There is only one Holy Father. 19:55.930 --> 19:58.350 He is not the representative of God on earth. 19:58.570 --> 20:03.230 He is not as the bishops of Ireland, 749, another Christ. 20:03.570 --> 20:04.330 He is not that. 20:04.330 --> 20:06.170 No, he is not that. 20:06.590 --> 20:08.730 And a man who claims to be that. 20:09.350 --> 20:10.430 These are the claims of the Pope. 20:10.490 --> 20:14.170 I did not say that the Pope, that I said the Pope said these are the official 20:14.170 --> 20:15.530 claims of the Pope. 20:15.870 --> 20:19.670 Well, if a man comes and claims these things, and he is not these things, 20:19.750 --> 20:24.370 and I read the Scripture that a man will come, and he will say these things, 20:24.550 --> 20:27.890 and he will emphasize that, and the Bible warns us against that. 20:27.890 --> 20:31.570 Well, of course, this idea of some evil figure who is going to come in the future. 20:32.070 --> 20:35.150 Some people have tried to take that out of Daniel and Revelation, and not to take 20:35.150 --> 20:36.590 these books in their proper context. 20:37.010 --> 20:39.050 And, of course, it is not just the Pope who has been accused. 20:39.370 --> 20:43.410 Over the crazy centuries, people thought it all referred to Napoleon, or Hitler, 20:43.610 --> 20:44.170 or Stalin. 20:44.450 --> 20:47.190 And I believe that is every bit as ridiculous as saying it refers to the 20:47.190 --> 20:47.510 papacy. 20:47.510 --> 20:50.170 Now, of course, there is such a thing as evil. 20:50.590 --> 20:53.250 Of course, there is such a thing as a force which opposes Christ. 20:53.630 --> 20:57.690 And I think the only sensitive Christian thing to do is to ask whether you and I, 20:57.790 --> 21:00.210 both of us, represent part of that ourselves. 21:00.650 --> 21:04.430 And the trouble with externalizing it, and saying there is the Pope, or there is 21:04.430 --> 21:07.970 Napoleon, who is the personification of evil, is it means we do not face up to the 21:07.970 --> 21:09.490 reality of evil in our own lives. 21:09.490 --> 21:13.990 But there is stuff in this, you know, which really is deeply offensive. 21:14.470 --> 21:17.710 I mean, to talk about the papacy is devious and diabolical. 21:17.930 --> 21:22.330 To say that the Pope stained the world with blood and peopled hell. 21:22.690 --> 21:25.890 I feel deeply sorry for Roman Catholic people who listen to this. 21:26.070 --> 21:29.830 And I believe, politically, it is absolutely disastrous, because it makes 21:29.830 --> 21:33.710 the intervention of the Irish Republic to help Roman Catholics seem justifiable. 21:33.990 --> 21:35.290 I do not think it is justifiable. 21:35.570 --> 21:38.010 But this book, frankly, does not make the cause of the Union much easier. 21:38.010 --> 21:43.750 Well, I would like to say to Mr. Baum, as you prepare to turn a blind eye to 21:43.750 --> 21:48.850 history, let him just go down to any library and pull out the Encyclopedia 21:48.850 --> 21:55.250 Britannica, and look up one reference, the Inquisition, and see just exactly what 21:55.250 --> 21:56.950 the Church of Rome did do. 21:57.530 --> 22:00.750 And see what she is continuing to do in places throughout the world. 22:00.750 --> 22:07.990 This idea that it is untrue to say that the Pope did not shed innocent blood. 22:08.390 --> 22:13.490 Your own Bishop says in this book, your own Bishop, Christopher Wordsworth, 22:13.990 --> 22:16.190 whom you could not question his scholarship. 22:16.390 --> 22:17.890 Another dated document, I see. 22:17.910 --> 22:19.670 It is not a dated document at all. 22:19.810 --> 22:21.290 Well, it is a pretty old thing, isn't it? 22:21.610 --> 22:24.990 Well, I mean, if you are saying, then, the Bible is dated. 22:25.250 --> 22:27.270 No, I am saying the papacy has changed. 22:27.470 --> 22:27.890 That is the difference. 22:27.890 --> 22:29.630 Well, the papacy has not changed. 22:29.950 --> 22:33.450 The papacy itself says it has not changed, but let's not get away from it. 22:34.110 --> 22:37.670 The Inquisition, let them read it in the Encyclopedia Britannica. 22:38.030 --> 22:43.510 And then tell me, is it not so that the Roman Catholic Church is responsible and 22:43.510 --> 22:48.730 as drunk as the Bible says in Revelation 17, and as this Bishop says in his book, 22:48.990 --> 22:51.470 with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. 22:51.470 --> 22:57.390 Now, I want to tell you this, Mr. Bath, today, that I am not here to be offensive 22:57.390 --> 22:57.990 to anybody. 22:58.350 --> 23:01.510 I am here to speak what I believe to be the truth. 23:01.630 --> 23:02.490 Yes, but what I don't understand... 23:04.150 --> 23:08.430 Many things have been said about me and people that are offensive. 23:08.530 --> 23:09.390 They have to take them. 23:09.970 --> 23:16.590 It is my business to proclaim there is only one Christ, and that is the Lord 23:16.590 --> 23:17.490 Jesus Christ. 23:17.750 --> 23:20.310 He is the sole King and Head of the Church. 23:20.310 --> 23:25.950 But if anybody else comes and says, I am another Christ on earth, I am the 23:25.950 --> 23:30.130 way, the truth and the life, outside me there is no salvation for you. 23:30.410 --> 23:32.850 That man is acting in the way that the Bible says he would act. 23:32.850 --> 23:35.950 Yes, but there is one thing that I don't understand. 23:36.570 --> 23:39.050 There are many, many faiths throughout the world. 23:39.190 --> 23:43.570 There is Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, there is Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., 23:43.570 --> 23:43.790 etc. 23:43.810 --> 23:46.030 There are many, many faiths that you would question. 23:46.030 --> 23:50.630 What I don't quite understand is why you cannot simply cleave to your own 23:50.630 --> 23:56.390 particular faith, which you believe in strongly, and stay with that and not use 23:56.390 --> 24:00.690 words and deeds, like Strasbourg, which many people find offensive. 24:01.510 --> 24:03.810 Well, let me say what I said in Strasbourg. 24:04.090 --> 24:10.970 I quoted the simple words of Archbishop Cranmer, that I reject the Pope as 24:10.970 --> 24:14.830 Christ's enemy and as Antichrist with all his doctrines. 24:14.830 --> 24:19.510 Now, for doing that, Archbishop Cranmer, the first Archbishop of Canterbury, 24:19.850 --> 24:24.090 was put to the fire and was burned. 24:24.430 --> 24:25.550 That's all I said. 24:25.930 --> 24:29.010 Now, that is a statement of my faith as well. 24:29.330 --> 24:33.450 I was not permitted, and I better put this on the line, I was not permitted to have a 24:33.450 --> 24:37.030 discussion in Strasbourg, neither was the Parliament, whether we should invite the 24:37.030 --> 24:37.170 Pope. 24:37.170 --> 24:40.410 I would have thought a democratic assembly, if they were going to invite 24:40.410 --> 24:42.310 somebody, would have the opportunity to debate it. 24:42.590 --> 24:44.090 I would have said that in the debate. 24:44.470 --> 24:46.510 I would have moved that we would not have accepted it. 24:46.690 --> 24:47.850 I would have cast my vote. 24:47.910 --> 24:49.190 I was never given that opportunity. 24:49.930 --> 24:53.850 And I want to say that that is an opportunity in a Parliament like that, 24:54.110 --> 24:55.650 which is now divided the nations. 24:55.830 --> 24:58.770 Protestants are a very tiny minority in Europe, as everybody knows. 24:59.030 --> 24:59.830 That's what should have been done. 25:00.090 --> 25:01.130 We weren't given that opportunity. 25:01.410 --> 25:04.250 But what was done to me was to try and silence me. 25:04.250 --> 25:08.410 Now, the table office themselves at Strasbourg said that the President was 25:08.410 --> 25:08.790 wrong. 25:09.090 --> 25:12.430 And he has now admitted that he was wrong in saying that he could silence me and 25:12.430 --> 25:13.250 keep me from speaking. 25:13.510 --> 25:14.830 I have a right under the rules. 25:15.210 --> 25:17.690 I have seen far worse protests than that. 25:18.030 --> 25:24.270 But my offense was that I said about the Pope, because the Pope has to be treated 25:24.270 --> 25:25.610 as a special person. 25:25.610 --> 25:29.410 His claims have to be upheld that he is Christ on earth. 25:29.690 --> 25:35.270 I saw them scuttling away to take down certain decorations that the Pope didn't 25:35.270 --> 25:37.390 believe in and cover them up. 25:37.610 --> 25:39.470 And I had a terrible job. 25:39.630 --> 25:41.950 I had to fight to even get into my seat. 25:42.650 --> 25:45.290 To get into my seat they blocked the passageways to keep me out of my seat. 25:45.630 --> 25:47.030 I just want to say this. 25:47.290 --> 25:51.810 It is my duty to state my views above board and clearly. 25:52.110 --> 25:53.430 I have stated my views in this book. 25:53.610 --> 25:55.150 I hope people will read this book. 25:55.150 --> 25:58.950 And will see what I have said and the plebeian teachings. 25:59.210 --> 26:03.230 And I have said nothing that is contrary to what has been said by others. 26:03.650 --> 26:05.070 I want to bring in John Barker. 26:05.290 --> 26:12.050 What do you think the impact of not just the book, but the protest at the European 26:12.050 --> 26:16.390 Parliament, what will the impact be on Roman Catholic people and people let's say 26:16.390 --> 26:18.990 in the Presbyterian and Church of Ireland faith? 26:18.990 --> 26:21.550 I think many of them will be deeply offended. 26:21.810 --> 26:24.690 Everybody knows about the Protestant Reformation and the bloodshed and the 26:24.690 --> 26:24.910 bitterness. 26:25.390 --> 26:27.650 People also know that Roman Catholics were martyred too. 26:28.050 --> 26:32.290 And I think every intelligent person wants to put those sad days behind them. 26:32.610 --> 26:36.650 And what worries me most is the vast crowd, the growing crowd of people who 26:36.650 --> 26:40.610 find all religion objectionable because they perceive that Christianity can only 26:40.610 --> 26:43.550 exist by bringing up these old vitriolic debates. 26:43.550 --> 26:45.630 I want to put them behind us. 26:46.070 --> 26:48.570 And Rome made mistakes, Protestantism made mistakes. 26:49.090 --> 26:53.610 And I find in this book not only an attack on the papacy, I find an attack on 26:53.610 --> 26:57.430 ecumenists who are told that they reject the Bible, that they are deluded, 26:57.750 --> 27:00.330 they are drugged by the satanic poison of Rome. 27:00.330 --> 27:02.590 Even Billy Graham is attacked in this book. 27:02.830 --> 27:07.290 As to atheists, they are apparently haters of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27:07.730 --> 27:12.790 Now I'm very sympathetic to the person who is atheistic because they cannot believe 27:12.790 --> 27:15.850 in a God who stirs up and is responsible for hatred. 27:16.290 --> 27:20.210 And such people maybe have rather more moral gut than those who are stirring up 27:20.210 --> 27:20.630 this hatred. 27:20.630 --> 27:25.370 Now, Mr. Paisley has been quoting to me from a number of dated books. 27:25.650 --> 27:27.410 Let me offer him a simple quotation. 27:27.790 --> 27:28.850 It's rather more up to date. 27:29.130 --> 27:33.150 It is from the contemporary edition of the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church 27:33.150 --> 27:38.390 where it says that the identification of the Pope with the Antichrist has 27:38.390 --> 27:44.190 frequently been made especially in the less educated circles of Protestantism. 27:44.390 --> 27:45.750 Is the Oxford Dictionary right? 27:45.750 --> 27:51.090 Well, I want to say that the Oxford Dictionary that says that indicts the 27:51.090 --> 27:55.550 whole Protestant communion because you have already stated that this was the 27:55.550 --> 27:57.910 basic principles of Protestants. 27:58.310 --> 27:59.190 It's in their formulas. 27:59.590 --> 28:04.910 So if you want to say that the formula of your church and the 39 articles which goes 28:04.910 --> 28:08.810 on which would be offensive to Roman Catholics in regard to the Mass, 28:08.930 --> 28:12.030 that the Mass was a blasphemous feeble and a dangerous deceit. 28:12.030 --> 28:15.730 If you are prepared to say that these were drawn up by ignorant men. 28:16.070 --> 28:20.530 You have an ignorant confession of faith on your head. 28:20.610 --> 28:22.610 Be it if that's the sort of church you belong to. 28:22.970 --> 28:24.730 Let me say this to you today. 28:25.030 --> 28:27.910 What I have said in this book is entirely scriptural. 28:28.330 --> 28:30.210 You have said nothing to me today. 28:30.530 --> 28:32.130 All you can say it is all dated. 28:32.250 --> 28:33.170 The Bible is dated. 28:33.170 --> 28:35.150 We go back to the foundation. 28:35.650 --> 28:36.850 The Bible is dated. 28:37.470 --> 28:40.550 Is the Bible true or is the Bible not true? 28:40.950 --> 28:46.310 And you have brought not one shred of evidence today to say to me these 28:46.310 --> 28:50.790 prophecies, in fact you have laughed at the fact that the Bible might be able to 28:50.790 --> 28:51.550 tell the future. 28:51.550 --> 28:53.550 I don't believe the Bible is about fortune telling. 28:53.570 --> 28:55.590 You don't believe the Bible can tell the future. 28:55.730 --> 28:58.610 You don't believe that Jesus Christ and his predictions were right. 28:59.070 --> 29:01.330 You don't believe that atheists are wrong. 29:01.790 --> 29:06.630 I want to say there is one way to heaven and it's not by a Protestant church or a 29:06.630 --> 29:07.750 Roman Catholic church. 29:08.170 --> 29:10.850 It is through Christ and through Christ alone. 29:11.350 --> 29:13.630 Neither is there salvation in any other. 29:21.030 --> 29:23.510 Neither is there salvation in any other. 29:23.850 --> 29:27.910 There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. 29:28.130 --> 29:31.610 You know perfectly well that is not the doctrine of the church of Rome. 29:31.970 --> 29:36.690 You need a priest to perform baptism to take away your original sin. 29:37.210 --> 29:38.250 You need the confession. 29:38.970 --> 29:41.630 You need all the sacraments of the church. 29:41.630 --> 29:44.270 That's the machinery of the church of Rome. 29:44.330 --> 29:45.790 Let me ask you a direct question. 29:46.990 --> 29:49.970 Do you ever discuss these views with Roman Catholics? 29:50.190 --> 29:50.330 Yes. 29:50.530 --> 29:54.770 I'm beginning to think the difference between us is that I enjoy talking to my 29:54.770 --> 29:58.390 Roman Catholic friends and finding out how they do interpret these things which we 29:58.390 --> 29:59.610 did find offensive in the past. 29:59.850 --> 30:04.630 Today I find massive changes and I believe some kind of dialogue is the way ahead. 30:04.630 --> 30:09.310 I talk to more Roman Catholics than Mr. Bach ever talks to. 30:09.390 --> 30:11.310 I talk to them in my advice centers. 30:11.510 --> 30:12.890 I talk to them in the streets. 30:13.290 --> 30:15.390 I entertain them in my home. 30:15.730 --> 30:17.090 I know what Roman Catholics say. 30:17.170 --> 30:20.210 Let me tell you I'm not talking about individual Roman Catholic beliefs. 30:20.790 --> 30:23.170 I'm talking about what the church teaches. 30:23.670 --> 30:25.270 What does the church say? 30:25.690 --> 30:27.590 Not what some individual says. 30:27.710 --> 30:29.410 That's not the teaching of the church Mr. Bach. 30:29.410 --> 30:31.810 We have to leave it at that point. 30:31.970 --> 30:33.250 We've been flooded with telephone calls. 30:33.350 --> 30:34.670 I promise I'll bring them to you tomorrow. 30:34.770 --> 30:35.930 But as usual the clock has beaten us. 30:36.030 --> 30:36.770 John Bach, it's a pleasure. 30:36.870 --> 30:37.570 Thank you for joining us. 30:37.850 --> 30:40.570 Join us again on Talkback tomorrow, usual time, after the news at noon. 30:40.710 --> 30:40.930 Goodbye. 30:41.930 --> 30:55.750 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, where we have in a few verses the description given by 30:55.750 --> 31:01.750 the Holy Spirit through the lips of the Apostle. 31:01.750 --> 31:11.770 Oh for the coming man of sin as he was in the days of Paul. 31:12.630 --> 31:18.010 Let no man deceive you, verse 3, by any means. 31:19.230 --> 31:21.830 For that day shall not come. 31:22.590 --> 31:26.010 That is the day of the coming of the Lord Jesus. 31:26.010 --> 31:33.770 Mentioned in verse 1, and the gathering together of God's people unto Him. 31:34.650 --> 31:40.290 Except there come a falling away first. 31:41.330 --> 31:51.690 Apostasy, a departure from the truth, will precede the second coming of Christ. 31:52.350 --> 32:04.330 And with that apostasy the man of sin will be revealed, the son of perdition, 32:05.530 --> 32:19.570 who opposeth and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped. 32:19.570 --> 32:31.450 He can't, of course, exalt himself above God, but he exalts himself in the 32:31.450 --> 32:40.330 falsehood of his religion above all that is called God, or that is worshipped. 32:40.330 --> 32:52.570 So that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 32:53.290 --> 33:02.110 The Antichrist's marks are the marks of a usurper. 33:03.870 --> 33:18.630 He usurps the place of God, he usurps the persons of the Godhead, and he usurps the 33:18.630 --> 33:20.890 power of God. 33:20.890 --> 33:32.710 And you go from one end of the earth to the other, and look for anyone who usurps 33:32.710 --> 33:41.730 the place of God, and the persons of the Godhead, and the power of God. 33:42.570 --> 33:53.050 And you will only find those marks clearly, distinctly, vividly portrayed and 33:53.050 --> 33:57.490 delineated in the Pope of Rome. 33:57.490 --> 34:07.190 If you go back to Daniel, you will find that Daniel deals with a dynasty when he 34:07.190 --> 34:09.930 talks about the little horn. 34:10.800 --> 34:17.770 And the dynasty of the popes have all been the same Cleomes. 34:18.830 --> 34:22.930 Of them Christ spoke in the gospel of Matthew. 34:23.890 --> 34:33.110 And he said, many would come, but they would all say, I am the Christ. 34:33.110 --> 34:34.170 Many! 34:35.150 --> 34:36.950 That's the dynasty. 34:38.970 --> 34:42.670 The Cleome, I am the Christ. 34:43.490 --> 34:51.050 That's the individual Cleome of each possessor of the people Tyara and the 34:51.050 --> 34:52.310 people of Rome. 34:54.050 --> 35:00.210 We live in a day when the Reformation is almost forgotten. 35:00.210 --> 35:08.710 We live in a day when the battle for the Bible is almost forgotten. 35:09.330 --> 35:17.350 We live in a day when the church would like to forget about its history. 35:18.210 --> 35:25.730 And when evil men would like to keep people from knowing the truth. 35:26.650 --> 35:32.250 The great scheme of Rome is deception. 35:34.050 --> 35:43.130 And this portion of Scripture says, they will all believe the lie. 35:43.810 --> 35:47.290 They will all believe the lie. 35:48.790 --> 35:52.110 As Christ is the truth. 35:53.110 --> 35:57.310 The empty Christ is the lie. 35:58.330 --> 36:07.050 And this week, we saw something of the world wanting to believe the lie. 36:09.950 --> 36:18.710 Last Lord's Day, as those that attend this house regularly know, I was far from well. 36:18.710 --> 36:21.890 Maybe that's why they gave me this pillbox tonight. 36:23.430 --> 36:31.530 My wife said to me, you'll never make Strasbourg if you're in the state of 36:31.530 --> 36:33.450 health you're in today. 36:34.130 --> 36:40.290 I said, dear, if I have to swim to Strasbourg, I'm going to be there. 36:41.230 --> 36:48.270 But last Sunday night, this congregation specially prayed for me. 36:49.170 --> 36:53.710 And I want to give honor to the Lord that those prayers were answered. 36:54.570 --> 37:02.230 And when I got up at five o'clock on Monday morning, I was fresh and well and 37:02.230 --> 37:04.370 ready for the journey. 37:05.250 --> 37:12.970 My assistant, the Lord Mayor of this city, Councillor Dodge, because of civic duties, 37:13.850 --> 37:18.670 wasn't able to go with me to Strasbourg. 37:19.950 --> 37:25.910 The Reverend David McElveen, a brother beloved, took his place. 37:26.670 --> 37:32.130 I'm glad the Lord always said, go two by two. 37:32.130 --> 37:38.810 For the company of a man of God, and the fellowship of a man of God, 37:39.630 --> 37:48.110 and the times of prayer with a man of God, are very precious, very comforting, 37:48.990 --> 37:55.610 and very encouraging in a time of battle and in a time of conflict. 37:56.450 --> 38:01.970 And I knew perfectly well that I was going into the lion's den. 38:02.710 --> 38:11.210 And I knew perfectly well that when you touch the people, see, you touch the very 38:11.210 --> 38:14.890 holiest of all of the system of Rome. 38:21.080 --> 38:27.400 I got to the first sitting of the house at five o'clock on Monday. 38:27.400 --> 38:38.140 I had hardly taken my seat to Mr. Andrews, who is a MEP from the Irish Republic. 38:39.500 --> 38:44.960 He is a member of Charlie Hockey's Finnafield party. 38:46.140 --> 38:49.640 He's also a well-known drinker. 38:50.640 --> 38:56.980 They say in the Parliament he smells like a brewery from eight o'clock in the 38:56.980 --> 38:57.260 morning. 38:58.280 --> 39:05.300 He's also the man that has advocated the licensing of brothels in the city of 39:05.300 --> 39:05.600 Dublin. 39:05.900 --> 39:10.040 So you know the type of man Mr. Andrews is. 39:10.700 --> 39:15.200 He rose to his feet and he said, Mr. President, as you know... 39:15.200 --> 39:21.160 I'm reading from the official report, the Hansard report of the European 39:21.160 --> 39:22.680 Assembly or Parliament. 39:23.540 --> 39:30.740 Mr. President, as you know, tomorrow we have the great honour and distinction of 39:30.740 --> 39:35.100 receiving His Holiness Pope John Paul II. 39:36.100 --> 39:44.780 What measures have you taken to ensure that His hearing is not disrupted by 39:44.780 --> 39:50.180 bigots who are inclined to disrupt such meetings? 39:51.040 --> 39:58.000 I refer, of course, to the previous interruptions by Mr. Paisley of Mrs. 39:58.080 --> 40:02.520 Thatcher and Dr. Hillary, President of Ireland. 40:02.520 --> 40:14.140 Is there any way we can ensure that Mr. Paisley, who is considered by many to be 40:14.140 --> 40:21.320 an institutional terrorist, does not get the floor tomorrow for international 40:21.320 --> 40:26.780 publicity which would bring this house into disrepute? 40:27.700 --> 40:31.880 And there's a little note, applause from the right. 40:33.660 --> 40:37.420 I rose and was eventually caught. 40:38.460 --> 40:47.060 I'm glad this is on the record because the press in this country concealed the full 40:47.060 --> 40:50.820 remarks that I made for their own reason. 40:51.180 --> 40:53.160 But I'll come back to that in a minute or two. 40:53.160 --> 40:58.460 But here on the record is my statement of faith. 40:59.380 --> 41:05.980 Mr. President, under the rules of this house, I think I am entitled to make a 41:05.980 --> 41:11.140 personal statement after the vicious attack that has been made upon 41:11.140 --> 41:18.600 Protestantism and upon those who adhere to the principles of Protestantism both in 41:18.600 --> 41:23.240 this assembly and in the whole of Europe. 41:24.000 --> 41:31.300 I came to this house, Mr. President, with the votes of three times more people 41:31.300 --> 41:37.180 than the Honorable Member who made this vicious attack upon me. 41:37.180 --> 41:42.060 I resent very deeply what he said about my position. 41:42.940 --> 41:51.140 And I must say to him that perhaps he would like to open an Inquisition torture 41:51.140 --> 41:58.240 chamber in this Parliament so that he could put on the rack those who do not 41:58.240 --> 42:04.720 agree with him or with the claims of the Roman Pontiff that will be received here 42:04.720 --> 42:05.700 tomorrow. 42:05.700 --> 42:16.840 As a Protestant, Mr. President, I have no apology to make for the attitude 42:16.840 --> 42:23.060 of Reformation Protestantism to the claims of the Pope of Rome. 42:24.060 --> 42:27.180 Another little note, loud protests. 42:28.420 --> 42:34.920 I totally and absolutely repudiate those claims. 42:36.080 --> 42:40.260 I do not believe that the Pope is infallible. 42:41.240 --> 42:47.740 I do not believe he is the sole representative of Christ on earth. 42:47.740 --> 42:54.020 I do not believe he has the power to forgive sins. 42:54.960 --> 43:03.060 I do not believe that he has the power to change the wafer into the body and blood 43:03.060 --> 43:04.040 of Christ. 43:05.060 --> 43:14.300 I totally and absolutely reject, in the name of the Savior that I worship, 43:14.300 --> 43:21.640 the abominable claims, the idolatrous claims of the Roman Pontiff. 43:22.900 --> 43:30.980 If this house is prepared to say to a Protestant with convictions, you shall be 43:30.980 --> 43:37.140 silent tomorrow, then, Mr. President, upon your head be it. 43:37.780 --> 43:45.040 You never gave this house, or me, an opportunity to discuss whether the 43:45.040 --> 43:49.800 Roman Pontiff should be invited to this house. 43:50.440 --> 43:58.060 By not doing that, and giving this house a free, open and democratic discussion, 43:59.040 --> 44:05.840 you would try to silence those that object to your invitation. 44:05.840 --> 44:11.900 Mr. President, I will be here tomorrow. 44:13.180 --> 44:19.160 I will make whatever protest I feel I should make. 44:20.080 --> 44:26.560 And if this house wants to condemn me and throw me out, I shall be quite happy. 44:27.640 --> 44:32.360 I have no apology to make for my Protestantism. 44:32.360 --> 44:39.660 And I will never apologize to the Republicans from the south of Ireland, 44:40.400 --> 44:46.260 who have destroyed the Protestant community in the south of Ireland. 44:47.120 --> 44:53.820 By this time, Mr. Andrews was in a speech shouting, your hands drip with blood. 44:55.420 --> 45:02.580 I said when our island home was divided, there were over ten percent Protestants in 45:02.580 --> 45:03.160 the Republic. 45:03.900 --> 45:07.300 Now there is only two percent. 45:08.440 --> 45:14.860 They are the eliminators of Protestants, and not the Ulster Protestants, 45:14.860 --> 45:20.700 who have given every facility of liberty to the Roman Catholics in the north of 45:20.700 --> 45:21.000 Ireland. 45:22.100 --> 45:26.720 Mr. President, Mr. Andrews is talking about blood. 45:27.640 --> 45:35.720 It is his church that has been responsible for the torture and murder of millions in 45:35.720 --> 45:37.840 the Spanish Inquisition days. 45:38.360 --> 45:40.920 And well, he knows it. 45:40.920 --> 45:45.640 He need not read lessons to me as a Protestant. 45:46.420 --> 45:48.400 They then cut off the microphone. 45:48.980 --> 45:51.120 Well, I do not need a microphone, thank God. 45:51.400 --> 45:53.940 So I proceeded with my speech. 45:54.380 --> 45:59.640 But of course, that which is not on the microphone is not recorded. 46:00.740 --> 46:07.780 The President then said, Mr. Pearsley, you have said what you had to say about 46:07.780 --> 46:09.120 ten times. 46:09.120 --> 46:13.740 A very cheap remark, because I did not repeat myself. 46:14.220 --> 46:19.460 The trouble with the President was, what I said was too strong, and was going 46:19.460 --> 46:21.840 right to the heart of the matter. 46:22.440 --> 46:27.960 Billy Sunday, the American evangelist, used to say, when you hit the bull's eye, 46:28.140 --> 46:29.000 the bell rings. 46:29.300 --> 46:33.840 And all the bells were ringing in that assembly on that occasion. 46:34.810 --> 46:38.540 Some of us show our Christianity in different ways. 46:39.900 --> 46:42.760 You have been allowed to make a statement today. 46:42.860 --> 46:44.400 I want you to notice that statement. 46:44.800 --> 46:45.480 You are allowed. 46:46.440 --> 46:53.720 As if there is some grace and fever and condescension to allow an elected member 46:53.720 --> 46:58.180 to speak, let me say, friend, that is what Europe is about. 46:58.880 --> 47:04.340 If you do not speak what they want you to say, they will silence you. 47:04.540 --> 47:08.940 But I want to say, as long as the people of this province send me to Europe, 47:09.300 --> 47:11.300 I will not be silent. 47:11.900 --> 47:16.420 I will speak what I believe with all my heart. 47:17.200 --> 47:21.880 I warn you, said the President, that tomorrow morning we shall not be 47:21.880 --> 47:23.820 holding the usual parliamentary sitting. 47:24.500 --> 47:29.520 How could you have a usual parliamentary sitting with the Pope and Ian Paisley in 47:29.520 --> 47:31.500 the same room at the same time? 47:32.040 --> 47:35.680 Anybody with a pinhead of brain between their ears would know that. 47:35.960 --> 47:38.000 We did not need the President to tell us that. 47:39.420 --> 47:42.240 We shall be holding a formal sitting. 47:43.700 --> 47:48.460 You say that you will be quite happy if you are removed from this house. 47:48.460 --> 47:54.300 And I assure you that in the formal sitting, this will be the case. 47:55.180 --> 48:00.740 So before I was going to be permitted to speak, I was to be turfed out. 48:00.900 --> 48:03.380 And then there is a little note, applause. 48:03.980 --> 48:06.040 And the house applauded. 48:07.300 --> 48:12.760 I went to the table at the front of the Parliament. 48:13.680 --> 48:17.500 I spoke to one of the chief men of the Secretariat. 48:18.820 --> 48:21.160 And I looked him straight in the eye. 48:22.360 --> 48:26.660 I said to him, there is the book of rules. 48:27.760 --> 48:36.460 Would you please show me under what rule and by what authority the President can 48:36.460 --> 48:39.220 keep me from speaking tomorrow? 48:40.940 --> 48:42.300 And he smiled. 48:43.200 --> 48:49.820 And he said, you know as well as I know that he has no authority and he has no 48:49.820 --> 48:50.220 rule. 48:50.960 --> 48:52.280 I said, of course I do. 48:53.320 --> 48:59.440 But I said, why do you not tell him that when he is so ignorant or else 48:59.440 --> 49:00.980 deliberately ignorant? 49:01.740 --> 49:02.580 Maybe you would tell him. 49:02.580 --> 49:08.780 Well he said, we will have a discussion and perhaps we can talk in the morning. 49:09.500 --> 49:16.040 In the morning when I took my seat at nine o'clock, the General Secretary of the 49:16.040 --> 49:22.460 Parliament and the top security officer of the house came down to my desk. 49:22.860 --> 49:25.020 And they said, we would like to speak to you. 49:26.220 --> 49:30.760 And I stood up from the desk and went into one of the corners of the building. 49:30.760 --> 49:34.060 And they said, you know we have a difficulty. 49:34.920 --> 49:36.880 I said, well I do not have any difficulty. 49:37.640 --> 49:41.460 You have a difficulty, that is your cup of tea, not mine. 49:41.560 --> 49:42.760 I do not have any difficulty. 49:43.500 --> 49:49.560 I have come to speak and speak I must and speak I will. 49:50.440 --> 49:59.340 Now if any other member had have called any other member a terrorist, what would 49:59.340 --> 50:00.580 the President have done? 50:01.000 --> 50:02.720 He would have called him to order. 50:03.460 --> 50:05.180 I did not call him to order. 50:05.640 --> 50:06.400 You know why? 50:06.960 --> 50:12.920 Because it was a Protestant that was being attacked and that suited the President 50:12.920 --> 50:15.080 that I should be attacked. 50:16.100 --> 50:18.120 I said, you do not have any rules. 50:18.560 --> 50:20.500 These are the rules of this assembly. 50:20.820 --> 50:22.060 Are you going to keep them? 50:22.360 --> 50:25.600 Now I said, if I was an Ulster where there is still a little bit of freedom. 50:26.200 --> 50:27.760 You know where I would be this morning? 50:28.260 --> 50:32.780 I would be in the high courts looking for an injunction to restrain the President 50:32.780 --> 50:34.500 breaking the laws of the Parliament. 50:35.760 --> 50:39.060 But I said, we do not have any democracy over here. 50:40.840 --> 50:44.520 Well they said, could we not have a sort of low key protest? 50:45.440 --> 50:51.080 Did you ever know of a low key protest when Ian Paisley and the Pope were 50:51.080 --> 50:51.500 together? 50:52.020 --> 50:54.380 What would you think of such a suggestion? 50:55.480 --> 50:58.240 How stupid these people are. 50:58.780 --> 51:04.840 They do not understand that this is the battle of the ages that we are engaged in. 51:05.360 --> 51:09.640 This is no Sunday school picnic or soiree. 51:10.000 --> 51:13.480 This is a battle for truth against the lie. 51:13.480 --> 51:16.620 The battle of heaven against hell. 51:17.100 --> 51:21.280 The battle of Christ against the Antichrist. 51:22.080 --> 51:24.020 Well I said, we will carry you out. 51:24.480 --> 51:26.400 Well I said, you will just have to do that. 51:26.840 --> 51:30.780 But before I am carried out, this assembly will hear me. 51:31.740 --> 51:39.620 I went down to my room and Brother McElveen and myself had a time of prayer. 51:39.620 --> 51:48.420 And I read those three Psalms that I expounded this morning in the morning 51:48.420 --> 51:49.100 service. 51:49.820 --> 51:56.000 Psalm 46, Psalm 47 and Psalm 48. 51:56.880 --> 52:01.760 They would have to go to get us place in the public gallery. 52:02.600 --> 52:09.640 You know, God works out all things in His eternal will. 52:10.680 --> 52:13.260 I went down in the morning to the desk. 52:13.800 --> 52:14.920 He went down first. 52:15.080 --> 52:18.320 He asked for a ticket to the gallery and they said, they are all gone. 52:18.640 --> 52:22.420 A little French man said, you cannot get into the gallery? 52:22.640 --> 52:23.380 They are all gone. 52:24.360 --> 52:29.840 I have a friend of mine who is pretty well placed in the European Parliament. 52:29.840 --> 52:31.340 I went to him. 52:31.480 --> 52:34.160 I said, I need to have a ticket for David McElveen. 52:35.240 --> 52:37.060 He said, there is plenty of seats. 52:38.340 --> 52:42.160 He said, you go down and put the pressure on them and they will soon bend. 52:42.880 --> 52:44.840 So I went down to the desk. 52:45.040 --> 52:48.160 I produced my pass as a member. 52:48.400 --> 52:49.140 I threw it down. 52:49.280 --> 52:52.140 I said, this man must have a ticket. 52:53.300 --> 52:54.340 Oh no, no. 52:54.740 --> 52:55.800 He has no tickets. 52:56.280 --> 52:57.380 I have receipt taken. 52:57.380 --> 53:00.820 I said, do not give me that. 53:01.400 --> 53:06.580 I have proof from a security man in this house. 53:06.720 --> 53:07.900 There is plenty of seats. 53:08.520 --> 53:13.360 And he immediately took a card and wrote me out a ticket and handed it to me. 53:13.960 --> 53:14.940 No seats. 53:15.600 --> 53:16.260 Of course there were. 53:17.100 --> 53:25.340 But Mr. McElveen was put beside the President's wife, Libby Plum. 53:25.340 --> 53:28.140 And Libby Plum was speaking. 53:28.320 --> 53:32.540 She was sitting with a wife of another English Tory MEP. 53:33.560 --> 53:37.660 And she said, you know, Henry is in a bad way. 53:38.680 --> 53:42.440 He should not have done what he did with Ian Paisley yesterday. 53:43.000 --> 53:44.480 He broke the rules. 53:45.460 --> 53:48.000 And he ought not to have made that statement. 53:48.820 --> 53:55.480 So there was from his own wife a confession that I was in the right and he 53:55.480 --> 53:56.520 was in the wrong. 53:57.240 --> 53:58.960 But I was left in my room. 53:59.920 --> 54:06.020 And there seemed to be some commotion in the courtyard outside my office. 54:06.500 --> 54:09.060 My office is on the first floor. 54:09.860 --> 54:16.020 And it is directly over the back door of the MEP's suite of offices. 54:16.020 --> 54:23.520 And to my surprise, I saw a great cavalier of cars coming. 54:24.260 --> 54:28.280 And it was the Pope coming in by the back door. 54:28.920 --> 54:31.080 Well, that was too good to be missed. 54:31.700 --> 54:42.220 So I opened my office window and I shouted as loud as I could as he stepped from his 54:42.220 --> 54:45.280 car and was being received by the officials. 54:46.900 --> 54:47.520 Antichrist! 54:49.700 --> 54:51.520 It was like a bombshell. 54:52.740 --> 54:56.080 I immediately withdrew and closed the window and sat at my desk. 54:56.700 --> 54:59.400 And I could see the people but they could not see me. 54:59.980 --> 55:02.360 And they were silent and they were looking up. 55:03.860 --> 55:07.680 And they looked at every window in that office. 55:08.320 --> 55:12.220 But could they discern where that voice came from? 55:12.220 --> 55:19.540 The Pope scurried in like a little rat in through the back door of the building. 55:20.480 --> 55:32.220 As I sat down at my desk, I was encouraged that the weakest instrument can be strong 55:32.220 --> 55:34.880 if God stands with him. 55:35.900 --> 55:38.220 At half past eleven I left my office. 55:40.420 --> 55:48.380 And when I got to the stairway that leads up to the section of the building that 55:48.380 --> 55:53.740 crosses over to the Parliament property, I discovered that the Roman Catholic civil 55:53.740 --> 55:57.980 servants had all blocked the stairway. 55:58.480 --> 56:04.700 So that I in no way could get to the Parliament and take my seat. 56:04.700 --> 56:09.240 This of course was part of the policy. 56:10.140 --> 56:15.460 And I knew that if I did not get through that way I would have to go to another 56:15.460 --> 56:20.900 lift, go on to another floor and possibly would not get in in time. 56:21.780 --> 56:27.580 So as I stood at the foot of the stairs and saw this mass of people, there must 56:27.580 --> 56:33.000 have been at least a hundred people in a small stairway cramming it, maybe more 56:33.000 --> 56:33.520 than a hundred. 56:33.520 --> 56:37.420 I said, Ian, you have got to be a bulldozer. 56:38.020 --> 56:45.940 And I put my head down and I went through that crowd, I tell you, as they were never 56:45.940 --> 56:47.220 pushed in their life. 56:47.340 --> 56:50.120 And they did their best to stop me. 56:50.520 --> 56:53.800 But I was determined to go through and I got through. 56:54.340 --> 56:59.580 When I got to the top of the stairs the security stopped me and said, you cannot 56:59.580 --> 57:00.800 get in this way. 57:00.800 --> 57:07.700 I said, I am a member of the house, stand back, I am going into this session. 57:08.460 --> 57:13.800 And so eventually I got round to the chamber. 57:15.180 --> 57:16.760 The Pope of course came in. 57:17.220 --> 57:23.020 I stayed outside while he came in because I was not going to either sit and be lost 57:23.020 --> 57:28.960 in the crowd that were standing and I certainly was not going to stand like Mr. 57:29.140 --> 57:35.440 Taylor and clap my hands like Mr. Taylor and receive him as a Christian because the 57:35.440 --> 57:42.560 Pope to me is the Antichrist, the man of sin and the son of perdition. 57:44.420 --> 57:47.060 Lord Plum, I stood outside the chamber. 57:47.220 --> 57:52.900 Lord Plum then gave his eulogy about the Pope and a great welcome. 57:52.900 --> 57:59.820 And then the Pope stood to speak and I said, it is now my opportunity. 58:00.620 --> 58:06.220 Now on my left hand side in the European Parliament there sits the representative 58:06.220 --> 58:09.020 of the Basque terrorist movement. 58:09.860 --> 58:15.640 And on the other side of me there sits a Calvinist from Holland. 58:17.960 --> 58:23.160 So the Calvinist from Holland, he would not come in or he would not stand 58:23.160 --> 58:23.660 with me. 58:24.120 --> 58:28.540 The Basque terrorist, he would not come in for he evidently does not like the Pope 58:28.540 --> 58:28.800 either. 58:29.480 --> 58:37.440 So I realized that I was given an opportunity to block the way to anybody 58:37.440 --> 58:38.580 that was attacking me. 58:38.580 --> 58:45.640 So I took their chairs and I pulled them out from under their desks and I built 58:45.640 --> 58:50.960 with their chairs on my own a nice semicircle where I could stand. 58:51.380 --> 58:54.660 One of the officials caught on what I was doing and he tried to shift them. 58:54.760 --> 58:58.000 I said, do not you put your hands on those chairs, just you leave them. 58:58.240 --> 59:00.660 So that gave me a little bit of leeway. 59:01.500 --> 59:10.800 I wondered what I should say and I was led of the Lord just to repeat the testimony 59:10.800 --> 59:13.440 of Archbishop Cranmer. 59:14.520 --> 59:22.320 Before Cranmer was pulled from the platform in Oxford and dragged down to the 59:22.320 --> 59:30.760 spot where Latimer and Ridley also were burned, he said, I refuse the Pope as 59:30.760 --> 59:36.380 Christ's enemy and antichrist with all his doctrine. 59:37.100 --> 59:42.760 So I stood there and quoted those great words of Cranmer. 59:43.280 --> 59:53.600 I refuse you as Christ's enemy and antichrist with all your false doctrine. 59:54.640 --> 01:00:01.480 I have read in the book of the Revelation the power of the word of testimony. 01:00:02.700 --> 01:00:07.420 But I never realized what power was in a martyr's testimony. 01:00:08.420 --> 01:00:14.880 For if I had brought a ton of explosives and let them off in that assembly, 01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:16.960 it could not have had a greater effect. 01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:27.420 My, that assembly erupted and the books started to fly and the punches started to 01:00:27.420 --> 01:00:30.880 be thrown and the kicking started. 01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:36.880 But I held my place and maintained my testimony. 01:00:38.060 --> 01:00:46.040 There is no difference between Europe today and Europe in Reformation times. 01:00:46.040 --> 01:00:54.440 I read again the story of Luther this afternoon at the Diet of Worms. 01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:57.340 Who presided over the Diet of Worms? 01:00:57.940 --> 01:01:03.020 The Emperor Charles, head of the Holy Roman Empire. 01:01:03.140 --> 01:01:03.700 Who was he? 01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:05.320 He was a Habsburg. 01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:13.500 It is interesting to note that one of the men that was attacking me is the last of 01:01:13.500 --> 01:01:14.040 the Habsburgs. 01:01:15.540 --> 01:01:21.820 Otto Habsburg, the pretender to the crown of Austria and Hungary. 01:01:22.500 --> 01:01:23.700 And there he was. 01:01:23.820 --> 01:01:29.440 I said, the Habsburgs are still lusting for Protestant blood. 01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:33.700 They are still the same as they were in the days of Luther. 01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:42.320 The members of the Roman Catholic party of Mr. Le Pen, of which John Taylor is a 01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:42.600 member. 01:01:42.600 --> 01:01:47.540 They were around me, battering away at me as hard as they could. 01:01:48.680 --> 01:01:52.400 I have some little experience of protests. 01:01:53.080 --> 01:01:58.900 And I know if you go to protest and you are one poster, it is not any good. 01:01:59.260 --> 01:02:02.680 Because of the tear it down, your protest is over. 01:02:03.240 --> 01:02:06.580 So I filled my pockets with posters. 01:02:06.580 --> 01:02:12.360 The little girl in the RTE said I was like a conjurer. 01:02:12.980 --> 01:02:16.080 From every pocket I was bringing posters. 01:02:16.660 --> 01:02:20.560 And when one disappeared, a second one took its place. 01:02:21.100 --> 01:02:25.080 When the second one disappeared, a third one took its place. 01:02:25.660 --> 01:02:31.080 And with some exaggeration, she said I had posters in every pocket. 01:02:31.420 --> 01:02:33.120 Well, I did not have them in every pocket. 01:02:33.120 --> 01:02:34.900 I had them in one pocket. 01:02:35.080 --> 01:02:38.300 For I knew if I had them in their side pockets, they would tear them. 01:02:38.640 --> 01:02:41.180 So I had them buttoned here inside. 01:02:41.860 --> 01:02:47.420 And I had them folded in such a way that they opened up almost simultaneously when 01:02:47.420 --> 01:02:48.560 I got them out of the pocket. 01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:50.360 And got them up. 01:02:51.480 --> 01:02:54.160 Eventually, I was hauled out. 01:02:54.900 --> 01:03:02.760 The security men had allowed a vicious attack on a member of the House. 01:03:03.560 --> 01:03:07.440 A violation of all the laws of the Parliament. 01:03:08.500 --> 01:03:15.780 And yet, the President never once rebuked anybody who did the throwing of books, 01:03:16.540 --> 01:03:22.260 or the beating of this preacher, this member, or the attack upon me 01:03:22.260 --> 01:03:22.660 physically. 01:03:22.660 --> 01:03:27.380 All he did was attack me for what I said. 01:03:27.980 --> 01:03:31.860 The security men, when they got out, then attacked the press. 01:03:33.020 --> 01:03:37.540 And the BBC man got his equipment interfered with. 01:03:38.220 --> 01:03:45.100 One photographer almost got his camera smashed. 01:03:45.420 --> 01:03:46.440 They pulled it from him. 01:03:47.720 --> 01:03:55.280 There seemed to be a concerted effort that my story would not be told. 01:03:56.060 --> 01:04:04.360 But I must say to you tonight that in spite of the local press and the English 01:04:04.360 --> 01:04:13.440 press taking such a vicious stand against me in many of their articles, that did not 01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:14.600 happen on the continent. 01:04:14.600 --> 01:04:23.640 My full appearance on Monday and everything I said that I have just read to 01:04:23.640 --> 01:04:32.280 you was carried in full on French television and translated faithfully. 01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:40.520 So much so that a leading Protestant in Strasbourg rang me on Tuesday morning. 01:04:41.420 --> 01:04:42.700 He said, I am a Protestant. 01:04:42.700 --> 01:04:48.860 I have been contending for Protestantism in this city for a long time. 01:04:49.640 --> 01:04:56.360 And he said last night I was thrilled Mr. Paisley on my television to hear your 01:04:56.360 --> 01:04:59.420 faithful testimony against the Pope. 01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:05.540 It has put heart and courage into the Protestants of Strasbourg. 01:05:06.200 --> 01:05:09.100 We thank God for that testimony. 01:05:09.100 --> 01:05:16.980 And across the world the banner, the poster was on the front page of every 01:05:16.980 --> 01:05:20.320 important national daily throughout the world. 01:05:21.020 --> 01:05:24.420 Our brother Dr. Leuthold was traveling up from Jamaica. 01:05:25.240 --> 01:05:29.140 He had been down in the Caribbean in meetings and he was telling me on the 01:05:29.140 --> 01:05:33.640 phone the other day, he said that morning when I opened the paper there you were 01:05:33.640 --> 01:05:35.980 right on the front page with your banner. 01:05:35.980 --> 01:05:43.200 And he said the message was straight and clear and plain. 01:05:44.600 --> 01:05:51.320 The amazing thing is that the local press, for some reason or other, they did not 01:05:51.320 --> 01:05:52.820 want the message to get out. 01:05:54.840 --> 01:06:00.580 I issued a full statement at the end of the protest. 01:06:01.580 --> 01:06:09.080 I pointed out that the IRA hunger strikers had been tried and found guilty of 01:06:09.080 --> 01:06:18.020 multiple terrorist murders, had a special emissary from the Pope arrived with golden 01:06:18.020 --> 01:06:21.500 crucifixes in order to comfort them. 01:06:22.200 --> 01:06:29.160 And that Mrs. Jures, the mother of Francis Jures, one of the murderers, stated that 01:06:29.160 --> 01:06:38.380 her son was dying in confidence and peace because the Holy Father had sent this 01:06:38.380 --> 01:06:45.500 tangible token of His support for the stand her son and his colleagues had 01:06:45.500 --> 01:06:45.840 taken. 01:06:46.840 --> 01:06:51.720 British press ignored that, but the world press did not. 01:06:52.060 --> 01:06:59.840 And the International Herald, which is an American-based international paper 01:06:59.840 --> 01:07:07.200 produced across the world, my statement of that matter was corried in full. 01:07:08.680 --> 01:07:15.540 The people realized that the Pope was saying one thing in Europe, but over here 01:07:15.540 --> 01:07:17.240 he was saying a different thing. 01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:23.740 Saying in Europe he is against terrorists and then he is sending golden crucifixes 01:07:23.740 --> 01:07:27.340 to them when they are convicted of murder. 01:07:28.280 --> 01:07:36.460 In this statement I pointed out that the claims of the Pope are totally contrary to 01:07:36.460 --> 01:07:37.200 Holy Scripture. 01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:44.660 And he himself is prophesied of in the Bible as the Antichrist. 01:07:45.480 --> 01:07:52.400 All the historic Reformation creeds spell this out in the plainest possible 01:07:52.400 --> 01:07:53.020 language. 01:07:53.760 --> 01:08:00.140 He takes the title Holy Father, thus intruding himself into the office of 01:08:00.140 --> 01:08:01.200 God the Father. 01:08:01.200 --> 01:08:08.380 The only person in Scripture entitled to be called Holy Father is God the Father. 01:08:09.120 --> 01:08:14.260 He intrudes himself into the office of Christ claiming he is the sole 01:08:14.260 --> 01:08:21.360 representative of Christ on earth and that there is no salvation for any individual 01:08:21.360 --> 01:08:25.060 on earth except in submission to him. 01:08:25.060 --> 01:08:33.340 He intrudes himself into the office of the Holy Spirit who alone is the Vicar of 01:08:33.340 --> 01:08:34.820 Christ on earth. 01:08:35.840 --> 01:08:40.860 The Pope is a usurper, an imposter, and a liar. 01:08:41.780 --> 01:08:49.520 And in the name of the only true and living God I raise my voice against him, 01:08:50.260 --> 01:08:53.560 branding him as the Antichrist. 01:08:53.560 --> 01:09:00.780 These are the matters that are totally concealed by our own press at home and by 01:09:00.780 --> 01:09:02.640 the British press. 01:09:03.220 --> 01:09:10.080 I am not concerned about attacks made upon my person. 01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:15.020 I am not concerned about what they say about me. 01:09:15.620 --> 01:09:22.980 But I must say I am concerned about what the Pope says about the Son of God and 01:09:22.980 --> 01:09:28.000 what he says he is when he is not. 01:09:29.260 --> 01:09:35.440 These things happen unto us for the furtherance of the Gospel. 01:09:37.580 --> 01:09:43.320 The little book that I wrote on my holiday, this phrasing, was a timely 01:09:43.320 --> 01:09:44.020 publication. 01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:52.480 I think one of the best fruits of this protest has been the discussion I had with 01:09:52.480 --> 01:09:57.960 John Bach on Thursday in Talkback program. 01:09:58.620 --> 01:10:04.260 By the way, the recording studio has copies of that on tape. 01:10:04.740 --> 01:10:09.860 And if you want to get a copy of that discussion, you can get it on tape tonight 01:10:09.860 --> 01:10:12.220 before you leave the service. 01:10:14.020 --> 01:10:22.040 If the Lord ever helped a preacher, the Lord helped me on Thursday morning. 01:10:22.960 --> 01:10:30.440 And I want to say that that message has been the means of opening many, 01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:34.840 many people's eyes to what this controversy is about. 01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:39.680 In fact, I had a member of this church who is in the teaching profession, 01:10:40.380 --> 01:10:47.140 and he told us the interesting story about a teaching colleague of John Bach's in the 01:10:47.140 --> 01:10:49.640 University of Ulster, in Coleraine. 01:10:50.620 --> 01:10:57.160 And this priest was asked, well, did you hear Bach and Paisley on the 01:10:57.160 --> 01:10:57.600 Talkback? 01:10:58.020 --> 01:10:58.940 He said, I did. 01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:01.600 He said, what did you think of it? 01:11:02.620 --> 01:11:05.280 Oh, well, he said he and Paisley thrashed him. 01:11:06.040 --> 01:11:08.800 And he said it was so interesting, I recorded it. 01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:14.780 And he says, I'm going into my class now, and we're going to play it and listen to 01:11:14.780 --> 01:11:15.720 it again. 01:11:16.580 --> 01:11:23.960 I trust some seed of gospel truth will get into that priest's heart. 01:11:23.960 --> 01:11:31.740 And I trust he will be led out of darkness into light, and from the power of sin and 01:11:31.740 --> 01:11:33.500 Satan unto God. 01:11:34.100 --> 01:11:40.580 Our friend Franco from Italy, who we haven't heard from for some time because 01:11:40.580 --> 01:11:46.100 of the religious persecution he has been suffering, rang my wife and said 50 01:11:46.100 --> 01:11:51.460 ex-priests and himself were together having some study and prayer. 01:11:51.460 --> 01:11:57.620 And my message came through on Italian television. 01:11:58.240 --> 01:12:03.300 And he said we all fell to our knees and gave the Lord thanks. 01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:11.420 And he said every week now our houses are attacked, the windows are smashed, 01:12:11.780 --> 01:12:15.760 and we're under supreme and terrible persecution. 01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:24.540 And he said how happy we were to see a brother standing up and preaching against 01:12:24.540 --> 01:12:26.980 potpourri the way it ought to be preached against. 01:12:27.740 --> 01:12:33.860 I believe that this matter will happen for the furtherance of the gospel. 01:12:34.540 --> 01:12:36.100 Let us pray that it will. 01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:42.800 And I trust that those who have been deceived by ecumenism and Romanism, 01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:51.300 and those that still flirt in membership with churches within the World Council of 01:12:51.300 --> 01:12:55.720 Churches, and the British Council of Churches and the ecumenical movement, 01:12:56.460 --> 01:13:04.080 will now at long last take a stand for truth and for righteousness and for 01:13:04.080 --> 01:13:05.060 biblical freedom. 01:13:05.060 --> 01:13:13.480 This is the hour for the people of God to take a stand in His name. 01:13:14.400 --> 01:13:20.000 I'd like to finish this message with the words of C. 01:13:20.040 --> 01:13:20.220 H. 01:13:20.320 --> 01:13:20.740 Spurgeon. 01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:29.220 He said it is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist. 01:13:29.220 --> 01:13:38.180 And as to what Antichrist is, no sane man ought to raise a question. 01:13:39.100 --> 01:13:45.940 If it be not the potpourri in the Church of Rome, there is nothing in the world 01:13:45.940 --> 01:13:48.300 that can be called by that name. 01:13:49.280 --> 01:13:57.500 If there were to be issued a hue and a cry for Antichrist, we would certainly take up 01:13:57.500 --> 01:13:59.340 this church on suspicion. 01:14:00.260 --> 01:14:07.060 And it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the 01:14:07.060 --> 01:14:07.640 description. 01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:16.780 Potpourri is country to Christ's gospel, and is the Antichrist, and we ought to 01:14:16.780 --> 01:14:18.280 pray against it. 01:14:18.280 --> 01:14:25.560 It should be the daily prayer of every believer that Antichrist might be hurled 01:14:25.560 --> 01:14:28.300 like a millstone into the flood. 01:14:29.740 --> 01:14:39.000 And Antichrist wounds Christ because it robs Christ of His glory. 01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:46.480 It puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of 01:14:46.480 --> 01:14:53.760 bread into the place of the Savior, and a few drops of water into the place of 01:14:53.760 --> 01:15:01.820 the Holy Ghost, and puts a mere fallible man like ourselves up as a vicar of Christ 01:15:01.820 --> 01:15:02.280 on earth. 01:15:02.280 --> 01:15:11.660 If we pray against it, because it is against Christ, we shall love the persons, 01:15:12.020 --> 01:15:14.440 though we hate their errors. 01:15:14.900 --> 01:15:20.700 We shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas. 01:15:21.300 --> 01:15:27.540 And so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces 01:15:27.540 --> 01:15:30.660 toward Christ when we pray. 01:15:30.660 --> 01:15:36.260 I trust that every one of us will so order our prayers. 01:15:37.080 --> 01:15:44.260 And if there be a Protestant in this house, unconverted, let me say to you in 01:15:44.260 --> 01:15:51.960 love, but with the strength of God behind me, it will be more tolerable in the day 01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:58.960 of judgment for a benighted, superstitious, priest-ridden Romanist than 01:15:58.960 --> 01:15:59.540 for you. 01:15:59.540 --> 01:16:02.240 You have the Bible in your hand. 01:16:02.980 --> 01:16:05.240 Christ is at your side tonight. 01:16:06.120 --> 01:16:10.780 You have refused Him and turned your back on Him. 01:16:11.380 --> 01:16:16.380 Oh, my dear Protestant hearer tonight, turn to Christ. 01:16:17.100 --> 01:16:19.780 Receive Him this night as your Savior. 01:16:20.440 --> 01:16:22.980 Be born again of the Holy Spirit. 01:16:23.720 --> 01:16:28.960 And if there be some Roman Catholic with us tonight, we are glad you have come. 01:16:28.960 --> 01:16:31.840 To hear the truth of the gospel. 01:16:32.100 --> 01:16:36.620 And I implore you to turn away from your church. 01:16:37.180 --> 01:16:40.180 I don't ask you to turn to Protestantism. 01:16:40.680 --> 01:16:43.120 I ask you to turn to Jesus. 01:16:44.000 --> 01:16:46.100 He alone can save your soul. 01:16:46.700 --> 01:16:50.040 I am not going to heaven because I am a Protestant. 01:16:50.560 --> 01:16:55.260 I am going to heaven because I am saved by the grace of God. 01:16:55.260 --> 01:17:03.800 And it is because I am saved by the grace of God that I protest the great truths of 01:17:03.800 --> 01:17:04.340 the Bible. 01:17:05.120 --> 01:17:09.840 And protest against all errors that are contrary to those truths. 01:17:10.660 --> 01:17:13.340 Neither is there salvation in any other. 01:17:13.860 --> 01:17:20.960 There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. 01:17:20.960 --> 01:17:25.300 Be saved this night in Jesus' name. 01:17:25.960 --> 01:17:26.800 May it be so. 01:17:27.220 --> 01:17:28.320 Let's bow our heads. 01:17:35.500 --> 01:17:38.560 I felt very nervous to come here tonight just to do this. 01:17:39.120 --> 01:17:41.140 And then I took courage just in thinking this. 01:17:41.540 --> 01:17:45.660 How did our minister feel when he was amongst the enemies of the gospel? 01:17:46.280 --> 01:17:48.360 The enemies of Christ at Strasbourg this week. 01:17:48.940 --> 01:17:52.640 And you know just from the session and the congregation of this church, we would like 01:17:52.640 --> 01:17:56.920 to present this little memento to Dr. Paisley for his stand this past week 01:17:56.920 --> 01:18:00.820 against the Roman Antichrist and earnestly contending for the faith. 01:18:01.400 --> 01:18:05.320 We do pray that the Lord will continue to bless him and strengthen him and give him 01:18:05.320 --> 01:18:09.700 grace in these days when so much of so-called Christendom is for the Church of 01:18:09.700 --> 01:18:09.900 Rome. 01:18:10.460 --> 01:18:14.880 We thank God for our own minister who stands for the gospel and the things of 01:18:14.880 --> 01:18:15.080 God. 01:18:15.160 --> 01:18:19.600 And we do pray that the Lord will continue to strengthen him and bless him and do him 01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:20.480 good in these days. 01:18:20.860 --> 01:18:21.640 Dr. Paisley. 01:18:21.640 --> 01:18:23.120 Thank you very much. 01:18:23.480 --> 01:18:24.100 Thank you. 01:18:24.420 --> 01:18:26.520 Am I supposed to open this, Morris? 01:18:37.810 --> 01:18:39.670 Thank you very much, Morris. 01:18:40.330 --> 01:18:42.470 I hope you don't think I need pills. 01:18:44.890 --> 01:18:47.090 Thank you very much, Morris. 01:18:47.090 --> 01:18:48.570 I really appreciate that. 01:18:51.070 --> 01:18:55.690 This Reformation audio track is a production of Stillwater's Revival Books. 01:18:56.830 --> 01:19:01.750 SWRB makes thousands of classic Reformation resources available free and 01:19:01.750 --> 01:19:04.950 for sale in audio, video, and printed formats. 01:19:05.970 --> 01:19:10.190 Our many free resources, as well as our complete mail-order catalog containing 01:19:10.190 --> 01:19:14.410 thousands of classic and contemporary Puritan and Reform books, tapes, 01:19:14.630 --> 01:19:24.030 and videos at great discounts, is on the web at www.swrb.com. 01:19:24.030 --> 01:19:37.510 We can also be reached by email at swrb at swrb.com, by phone at 780-450-3730, 01:19:38.090 --> 01:19:49.110 by fax at 780-468-1096, or by mail at 4710-37A, Edmonton, 01:19:52.150 --> 01:19:59.390 Alberta, abbreviated capital A, capital B, Canada, T6L3T5. 01:19:59.790 --> 01:20:01.970 You may also request a free printed catalog. 01:20:02.710 --> 01:20:06.710 And remember that John Calvin, in defending the Reformation's regulative 01:20:06.710 --> 01:20:10.750 principle of worship, or what is sometimes called the scriptural law of worship, 01:20:11.310 --> 01:20:15.690 commenting on the words of God, which I commanded them not, neither came 01:20:15.690 --> 01:20:23.190 into my heart, from his commentary on Jeremiah 731, writes, God here cuts off 01:20:23.190 --> 01:20:28.130 from men every occasion for making evasions, since he condemns by this one 01:20:28.130 --> 01:20:32.810 phrase, I have not commanded them, whatever the Jews devised. 01:20:33.330 --> 01:20:37.730 There is then no other argument needed to condemn superstitions, than that they are 01:20:37.730 --> 01:20:39.090 not commanded by God. 01:20:39.590 --> 01:20:43.290 For when men allow themselves to worship God according to their own fancies, 01:20:43.510 --> 01:20:47.090 and attend not to his commands, they pervert true religion. 01:20:47.090 --> 01:20:52.470 And if this principle was adopted by the Papists, all those fictitious modes of 01:20:52.470 --> 01:20:57.210 worship, in which they absurdly exercise themselves, would fall to the ground. 01:20:57.730 --> 01:21:01.770 It is indeed a horrible thing for the Papists to seek to discharge their duties 01:21:01.770 --> 01:21:04.910 towards God, by performing their own superstitions. 01:21:05.570 --> 01:21:10.270 There is an immense number of them, as it is well known, and as it manifestly 01:21:10.270 --> 01:21:10.670 appears. 01:21:11.430 --> 01:21:15.730 Were they to admit this principle, that we cannot rightly worship God, 01:21:15.810 --> 01:21:20.590 except by obeying his word, they would be delivered from their deep abyss of error. 01:21:21.330 --> 01:21:26.050 The prophet's words then are very important, when he says, that God had 01:21:26.050 --> 01:21:29.850 commanded no such thing, and that it never came to his mind. 01:21:30.330 --> 01:21:35.530 As though he had said, that men assume too much wisdom, when they devise what he 01:21:35.530 --> 01:21:38.570 never required, nay, what he never knew.