WEBVTT 00:02.020 --> 00:05.160 The Catholic Church engulfed by scandal. 00:05.800 --> 00:09.640 Plagued by power struggles, controversy and corruption. 00:10.540 --> 00:14.000 For the first time in 600 years, a Pope resigns. 00:14.840 --> 00:18.380 With a new pontiff in town, will the Vatican reform and modernize? 00:18.660 --> 00:22.820 The Church is behind about 200 years to the modern world. 00:23.620 --> 00:28.960 Can the Argentinian Pope stop the loss of followers in the West and the Americas? 00:28.960 --> 00:31.940 People just don't give a damn about God anymore. 00:32.500 --> 00:34.560 We've come to Rome looking for answers. 00:35.100 --> 00:37.180 How authoritarian is the papacy? 00:37.560 --> 00:39.560 How imperial is the Vatican? 00:40.020 --> 00:43.020 It is still structured like an absolute monarchy. 00:43.560 --> 00:46.540 I am Marwan Bishara and this is him. 01:03.300 --> 01:07.600 The Catholic Church boasts of over a billion followers around the globe, 01:07.940 --> 01:12.560 with thousands of new followers in Africa and Asia joining every month. 01:12.840 --> 01:18.220 But like all organized religions, it's facing new challenges, both internal 01:18.220 --> 01:19.440 and external. 01:20.380 --> 01:24.920 The oldest and most populous Christian denomination is losing adherence in Europe 01:24.920 --> 01:25.820 and the Americas. 01:25.820 --> 01:32.220 Here in Italy, its foremost stronghold, churchgoers have dwindled by two-thirds 01:32.220 --> 01:33.760 over the last few decades. 01:34.480 --> 01:38.840 In the coming and going between the faithful and the faithless, the battle for 01:38.840 --> 01:43.300 hearts, minds and souls is more than just a numbers game. 01:44.320 --> 01:49.080 To discuss the challenges facing the Catholic Church, we are joined here in 01:49.080 --> 01:54.980 Rome by Marco Tossati, writer for La Stampa and author of several books on 01:54.980 --> 02:00.320 religion, including John Paul II, Portrait of a Pontiff. 02:01.240 --> 02:07.240 Father Norman Tanner, a Jesuit priest and author of New Short History of the 02:07.240 --> 02:08.060 Catholic Church. 02:08.980 --> 02:13.980 And last but not least, Marco Puliti, a journalist and author of Joseph 02:13.980 --> 02:16.700 Retzinger, Crisis of a Papacy. 02:18.140 --> 02:27.140 Two millennia in the making, a flock of 1.2 billion devotees, a legion of over a 02:27.140 --> 02:33.280 million foot soldiers, nuns, bishops, running a staggering quarter of the 02:33.280 --> 02:39.360 world's health care facilities and more than 200,000 schools across the globe. 02:40.580 --> 02:45.580 Still, Rome remains the beating heart of the Roman Catholic Church. 02:47.860 --> 02:53.900 But the far-flung outposts of the Catholic Empire are moving in from the margins. 02:59.480 --> 03:02.080 The center of gravity is shifting. 03:02.820 --> 03:10.980 Christianity is therefore not the cultural property of any particular country or 03:10.980 --> 03:12.980 continent or civilization. 03:13.840 --> 03:20.480 Over the last 40 years, Catholicism has seen a global shift southwards. 03:21.230 --> 03:27.100 An overwhelming half a billion Catholics live in Latin America and another 137 03:27.100 --> 03:28.780 million in Asia. 03:29.320 --> 03:35.460 But while Africa's Catholics have increased by 15%, Europe's have diminished 03:35.460 --> 03:36.840 by the same proportion. 03:37.480 --> 03:41.420 Why are people not going to church anymore? 03:41.960 --> 03:46.320 This Europe that has Christian roots is maybe abandoning its mission. 03:48.520 --> 03:54.900 Corruption, inflexibility, and worst of all, the sex abuse scandals have shrunk 03:54.900 --> 03:58.780 church membership and undermined its credibility. 03:59.360 --> 04:04.060 The sex abuse was a great problem for the church, not only for the type of crime 04:04.060 --> 04:09.920 that has been committed by clerical persons, but also for the sense that a 04:09.920 --> 04:15.140 lack of governance was practiced by bishops. 04:15.140 --> 04:19.400 But not all of the church's wounds are self-inflicted. 04:23.860 --> 04:29.120 Society is changing and society is disenchanted. 04:29.880 --> 04:34.100 People see no need for religion any longer in their day-to-day life. 04:34.540 --> 04:39.780 In fact, unbelievers now make up the world's third largest, for lack of a 04:39.780 --> 04:41.540 better word, religion. 04:41.540 --> 04:46.820 And that's just one of many new and old problems piling up. 04:46.900 --> 04:51.800 The church is facing the challenge of a lot of new Protestant churches. 04:52.440 --> 04:55.620 Think of a country like Brazil, where they say that more than a million 04:55.620 --> 05:00.420 Catholic faithful leave the church every year. 05:00.700 --> 05:05.920 They propose an answer to ordinary people, which apparently the Catholic church no 05:05.920 --> 05:06.520 longer does. 05:06.520 --> 05:11.480 The old church, however, is trying new tricks to stop the bleeding. 05:12.700 --> 05:17.440 Pop star priests, shiny new megachurches, and a Latin American pope will, 05:17.600 --> 05:21.780 it is hoped, win back some of the lapsed and the lost. 05:24.760 --> 05:31.000 In Africa, too, the sobriety and ceremony of Roman ritual is being transformed by 05:31.000 --> 05:33.580 the sweat and song of local cultures. 05:33.580 --> 05:39.060 But efforts to reinvigorate the faith at the margins are not always met with 05:39.060 --> 05:40.540 approval at the center. 05:41.440 --> 05:47.660 There's always some suspicion of what Africa has to bring to the table. 05:48.400 --> 05:55.600 Rome sets the tone for how local churches could practice Catholicism. 05:56.500 --> 06:02.080 Clinging to control, sticking to orthodoxy, insisting all roads lead to 06:02.080 --> 06:02.480 Rome. 06:02.820 --> 06:08.140 Could these be the causes and effects of a church in crisis? 06:14.500 --> 06:19.940 Marco Tosatta, Father Turner, Professor Politi, welcome to Empire. 06:20.660 --> 06:23.300 Professor, is the Catholic church in crisis? 06:23.980 --> 06:27.720 The Catholic church is an empire both vital and in crisis. 06:27.720 --> 06:32.340 It's vital because there are hundreds of thousands of priests and nuns all over the 06:32.340 --> 06:32.620 world. 06:32.760 --> 06:37.840 There are lay movements, associations, Bible groups, charities, hospitals, 06:38.260 --> 06:42.860 school, universities, TVs, radio, and so many initiatives all over the 06:42.860 --> 06:43.000 world. 06:43.240 --> 06:47.740 But in the same time, there is a deep crisis because there are less and less 06:47.740 --> 06:48.280 priests. 06:48.420 --> 06:50.620 And so there are no more priests for the parishes. 06:51.040 --> 06:53.640 And the parish has been the great invention of Christianity. 06:53.960 --> 06:56.480 It was a territory with a spiritual guide. 06:56.480 --> 06:58.180 So it's losing its essential base. 06:58.360 --> 07:02.400 It's losing its essential basis, and there are less and less nuns. 07:02.540 --> 07:04.680 The nuns are the infantry of the church. 07:04.840 --> 07:08.700 If the nuns make a strike, all the church will stop for one day. 07:09.400 --> 07:14.540 Because women are losing interest in the church because they don't participate in 07:14.540 --> 07:15.730 the decision-making process. 07:15.730 --> 07:23.270 And the last problem of big crisis is that people and believers more and more decide 07:23.270 --> 07:28.730 for themselves in an individualistic way about the life of relationship, 07:28.970 --> 07:29.670 the sexual life. 07:29.770 --> 07:33.930 They don't care about the instructions of the Vatican about abortion, divorce, 07:34.350 --> 07:35.550 pill, and so on. 07:35.550 --> 07:38.810 But I think that certainly there is a crisis in some places. 07:38.990 --> 07:44.170 But for instance, now in Poland, there are something like 6,000 seminarians 07:44.170 --> 07:46.150 in Czestochowa for a meeting. 07:46.530 --> 07:49.830 Now, 6,000 seminarians is a great number. 07:50.170 --> 07:54.930 And in Africa, for instance, well, the Catholics and the Christians are 07:54.930 --> 07:59.590 growing in a way that 10 years ago was not even thinkable. 07:59.590 --> 08:08.310 And they are winning the race against Islam. 08:08.470 --> 08:13.250 And that's why Islam has taken a face so terrible like Boko Haram. 08:13.750 --> 08:15.510 So, in Asia, they are growing. 08:15.890 --> 08:21.850 So, I think it's much more... well, we always see Europe and the United 08:21.850 --> 08:22.470 States. 08:22.850 --> 08:23.410 Let's talk about that. 08:23.410 --> 08:26.070 But we are a little bit much too Europe-centered, I think. 08:26.110 --> 08:26.870 Let's talk about that. 08:26.870 --> 08:31.710 But we must not forget what Cardinal Martini, the former Milan cardinal, 08:32.130 --> 08:38.970 a Jesuit like Pope Bergoglio, said just dying last August when he said the church 08:38.970 --> 08:43.070 is behind about 200 years to the modern world. 08:43.370 --> 08:44.750 It's too much pompos. 08:45.190 --> 08:47.170 There are too many empty buildings. 08:47.470 --> 08:49.250 And there is too much dust. 08:49.690 --> 08:51.570 I think this is a strong reminder. 08:52.270 --> 08:54.330 Well, the church has always been like that. 08:54.430 --> 08:56.710 I mean, it's always been in crisis. 08:57.730 --> 09:02.390 I'm sure, I'm not a historian, but I'm sure, as far as I was able to 09:02.390 --> 09:06.430 read, that there have been, even in Europe, periods where the church was in a 09:06.430 --> 09:07.270 real crisis. 09:08.630 --> 09:10.330 It's a living body. 09:10.630 --> 09:11.470 It's a living body. 09:11.710 --> 09:14.690 You mean it just lives in a crisis management mode all the time? 09:15.170 --> 09:17.670 Well, I think that Father Tanner can answer better than I do. 09:17.670 --> 09:23.370 Well, I think the professor has spoken very well that we perhaps concentrate too 09:23.370 --> 09:27.050 much on Europe and the Western world where there are certainly problems. 09:27.610 --> 09:32.090 But we remember the dynamic nature, vigorous nature of the church in other 09:32.090 --> 09:32.650 continents. 09:32.990 --> 09:36.050 But don't you think what's happening in Europe and the United States will happen 09:36.050 --> 09:37.030 later on on those continents? 09:37.170 --> 09:38.830 Because what is the problem in Europe and the United States? 09:39.010 --> 09:40.750 It's a question of secularism. 09:41.170 --> 09:41.610 Secularism. 09:41.910 --> 09:42.710 Modernism, right? 09:43.510 --> 09:43.950 Secularism. 09:43.950 --> 09:46.130 And these are coming to Latin America and other places. 09:46.130 --> 09:47.150 Many things. 09:47.350 --> 09:51.530 And also, I think, important to remember that we've had big crises in the church in 09:51.530 --> 09:52.010 the past. 09:52.090 --> 09:57.590 So, the center of the very early church was in Western Asia and North Africa. 09:58.010 --> 10:01.290 And, of course, those areas predominantly accepted Islam. 10:02.310 --> 10:06.310 So, we've had big shifts in the past too. 10:06.810 --> 10:08.870 But I want to go back to what Professor Pulido said. 10:09.490 --> 10:13.850 That there's a certain, allow me, backwardness in the church in the sense 10:13.850 --> 10:15.710 that it's not keeping up with the times. 10:15.710 --> 10:21.090 That on questions of marriage, on the question of contraception, 10:21.450 --> 10:25.490 on the corruption of gays, on the questions of women and their role, 10:25.850 --> 10:26.870 the church is way behind. 10:27.110 --> 10:28.090 It's behind the society. 10:28.370 --> 10:29.030 Behind what? 10:29.490 --> 10:30.870 The society, the modern times. 10:30.890 --> 10:35.210 Well, it depends if the church has to follow the society or not. 10:35.210 --> 10:40.350 The church normally thinks, even Father Bergoglio, who is a Jesuit as Martini is, 10:40.810 --> 10:45.350 was that the church must keep some values. 10:45.990 --> 10:52.590 Some values which, because they are not tied to what Benedict XVI called the 10:52.590 --> 10:53.190 trends. 10:54.810 --> 10:58.910 So, certainly, according to a secularistic point of view, the church is behind. 10:59.450 --> 11:03.110 But it depends where the secularist point of view will lead us. 11:03.110 --> 11:04.430 Well, let me ask you one example. 11:06.670 --> 11:08.110 Where are the women in the church? 11:08.230 --> 11:09.630 There have been promises about women. 11:10.230 --> 11:12.450 Women are more than half of the Catholic world. 11:12.750 --> 11:16.570 But in the hierarchy of the church, there is only two women in the top 11:16.570 --> 11:17.110 echelon. 11:17.590 --> 11:19.570 Well, let me start with a provocative statement. 11:20.750 --> 11:22.610 Christianity is a very deep mystery. 11:23.450 --> 11:27.850 And you might say it's a miracle that there's any Christian in such a deep 11:27.850 --> 11:28.170 mystery. 11:28.330 --> 11:32.170 So, we should be grateful for the number that there are. 11:33.250 --> 11:38.610 Then, as you also said, it's a difficult balance between keeping faithful to what 11:38.610 --> 11:43.490 we find in the Gospels, where we find all the twelve apostles were men, and other 11:43.490 --> 11:48.290 structures like that, or choices which we find in the early church. 11:48.750 --> 11:53.570 And to... yes, sure, you're completely right, the church must update itself. 11:53.790 --> 11:55.910 But these are delicate and quite difficult decisions. 11:56.450 --> 11:59.050 Professor Politi, it's been very slow coming, hasn't it? 11:59.090 --> 12:00.470 I would put it this way. 12:00.470 --> 12:04.170 Fifty years ago, there was here in Rome Vatican Council II. 12:04.910 --> 12:09.290 And it was a moment when the church felt that it was really behind the times. 12:09.550 --> 12:12.810 The church with Vatican Council II had to accept... 12:12.810 --> 12:12.890 In the mid-sixties. 12:13.010 --> 12:18.930 In the mid-sixties, had to accept freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, 12:19.270 --> 12:25.250 freedom of press, the democracy, and also the dignity of the other 12:25.250 --> 12:25.890 religions. 12:26.090 --> 12:28.230 It had to overcome antisemitism. 12:28.230 --> 12:34.410 So, in the middle of the sixties of the last century, the church made a great 12:34.410 --> 12:37.390 effort to become up-to-date. 12:37.790 --> 12:39.550 But now there are new problems. 12:39.730 --> 12:42.470 And the great problem is the problem of secularism. 12:42.670 --> 12:47.510 This means that men and women all over the world, also in other religions, 12:47.690 --> 12:52.990 whether they are Muslim, Buddhist, or Hinduist, they don't live anymore 12:52.990 --> 12:56.390 following the rhythm of the sacred life. 12:56.390 --> 13:01.850 I mean, God is not important when you look for your job like it was important for a 13:01.850 --> 13:04.770 peasant to ask for the rain, to put it very... 13:04.770 --> 13:06.730 So, you could be a Catholic but not go to the church. 13:07.310 --> 13:13.010 Oh, there are many people who say they are Catholics or Jews or from Arabic 13:13.010 --> 13:18.110 tradition, and they don't go anymore to the mosque or to the synagogue or to the 13:18.110 --> 13:18.330 church. 13:18.550 --> 13:22.730 For the Catholic church, there are many people who say they are traditionalist 13:22.730 --> 13:27.290 Catholics for tradition, because their family was Catholic, but in their normal 13:27.290 --> 13:31.430 life, they are absolutely no more really believers. 13:31.830 --> 13:34.530 And there are also increasing atheism as well around the world. 13:35.010 --> 13:40.410 I would say that atheism is increasing, but above all, indifference is increasing. 13:40.630 --> 13:43.090 People just don't give a damn about God anymore. 13:43.250 --> 13:43.870 That's the problem. 13:43.970 --> 13:49.010 Because there are so many beautiful things all around. 13:49.750 --> 13:51.650 There is a do-it-yourself religion. 13:52.850 --> 13:57.090 Not everybody, but a lot of people, more and more in the modern society, 13:57.610 --> 14:02.590 Christian societies, are building their own rules and their own commandments, 14:02.810 --> 14:03.450 and that's the problem. 14:03.450 --> 14:09.030 And they would especially do that, Marco, when they look at what some in the 14:09.030 --> 14:13.790 church are doing, for example, in the sex abuse, in the abuse cases. 14:13.910 --> 14:15.350 That doesn't count very much. 14:15.410 --> 14:18.050 I mean, you start thinking about yourself before. 14:18.830 --> 14:20.430 You don't start thinking... 14:20.430 --> 14:24.110 You don't think the crisis in the child abuse case was not important? 14:25.210 --> 14:29.390 I think it was certainly important for the church. 14:29.790 --> 14:33.170 It was not very important for the outside of the church. 14:33.450 --> 14:41.430 I mean, the most of the cases of abuse happens in families, 70%. 14:41.430 --> 14:48.970 And the number, the percentage of priest abusers was not higher than Muslim men or 14:48.970 --> 14:49.530 rabbis. 14:49.530 --> 14:56.930 I mean, that's a very touchy point, and 80% of this was not really pedophilia. 14:59.210 --> 15:01.610 You are contradicting all the reports. 15:02.630 --> 15:03.570 Yes, of course. 15:04.370 --> 15:10.810 The 80% of the priests condemned in the United States for abuse was homosexual, 15:11.150 --> 15:14.790 and they didn't do sex with somebody under the age of puberty. 15:15.930 --> 15:18.330 But we're talking about tens of thousands of cases. 15:18.330 --> 15:24.250 Anyway, that doesn't matter at all about the process of secularization. 15:24.510 --> 15:31.970 You decide to do what you like, apart from religion, before. 15:32.630 --> 15:35.410 And that's something that you breathe right now in our society. 15:35.430 --> 15:36.990 We can say there are two phenomena. 15:37.470 --> 15:43.730 One is the lose of belief just in the dogmas of the church. 15:43.890 --> 15:47.770 And this is a process which is going on every decade more and more. 15:47.770 --> 15:53.790 But the sex abuse scandal was a mortal blow to the credibility of the church as 15:53.790 --> 15:55.950 institution, of the structures. 15:56.370 --> 16:01.190 So that's the point, because when Pope Benedict said to the bishops of Ireland, 16:01.390 --> 16:06.730 but it was the same message to the bishops all over the world, you didn't do your 16:06.730 --> 16:11.970 job, you didn't follow the rules, you didn't bring the criminal priests to 16:11.970 --> 16:15.150 the court, you didn't listen to the victims. 16:15.150 --> 16:21.750 This means that this was a great failure for the credibility of the structure and 16:21.750 --> 16:22.570 of the institution. 16:22.730 --> 16:29.090 And just the challenge today is just to reorganize the institution, and I would 16:29.090 --> 16:31.190 say also to democratize the institution. 16:31.330 --> 16:32.910 We're going to get to that, Professor Britti. 16:32.990 --> 16:38.990 But Father Tanner, what Professor Polit is saying, even if Marco Tosati is right 16:38.990 --> 16:41.810 about it, it's not huge in terms of number. 16:41.810 --> 16:46.730 But in a world of new media and satellite media, I tell you, anywhere I go, 16:47.170 --> 16:52.290 I hear about the complaints of what those, minority or otherwise, in the church are 16:52.290 --> 16:53.450 doing in the name of the church. 16:53.750 --> 16:57.590 Well, the sexual abuse is a very grave sin, there's no doubt. 16:58.030 --> 17:02.590 And especially priests with minors, that's a very, very serious sin. 17:02.990 --> 17:06.690 But as colleagues have said, it's obviously important to remember there are 17:06.690 --> 17:11.550 plenty of other very serious sins, and not to remember the seriousness of 17:11.550 --> 17:16.610 other sins, and not focus exclusively on the sexual abuse, which nevertheless is 17:16.610 --> 17:17.270 very serious. 17:17.650 --> 17:25.510 I'd just like to also, on the optimistic side, as Professor said, the Vatican II 17:25.510 --> 17:29.450 undoubtedly was a huge, tremendously important moment. 17:29.930 --> 17:35.070 And it's taken a long time, 50 years, for the Catholic Church to digest this big 17:35.070 --> 17:35.550 council. 17:35.550 --> 17:40.430 And just one corollary on that, that we tend to think, well, all the 17:40.430 --> 17:43.150 change and the responsibilities are on the Pope and the bishops. 17:43.410 --> 17:48.270 But remember all the activity of the ordinary Catholics and Christians, 17:48.490 --> 17:49.250 clergy, laity. 17:49.770 --> 17:53.050 And in all sorts of ways, they've been bringing the church forward. 17:53.390 --> 17:55.750 But I want to ask you particularly about that, Father. 17:55.930 --> 17:59.990 It's been said that the Catholic Church asks its believers, its adherents, 18:00.530 --> 18:04.050 to follow what it says, not what its clergy do. 18:04.630 --> 18:06.670 That's kind of hypocritical, isn't it? 18:07.230 --> 18:11.770 I mean, the men of the cloth, the men of the church, need to do exactly what they 18:11.770 --> 18:12.090 preach. 18:12.930 --> 18:13.810 Who does? 18:15.510 --> 18:16.750 The people of the church should. 18:17.190 --> 18:20.130 Should, but not only the people of the church, the politicians should. 18:20.610 --> 18:24.230 And the high authorities in all other religions should. 18:24.330 --> 18:24.750 Do they? 18:25.030 --> 18:26.030 But then they lose credibility. 18:26.030 --> 18:32.050 Well, everybody loses credibility, but it seems that the only place where 18:32.050 --> 18:34.890 there's hypocrisy is the Catholic Church, of course. 18:34.990 --> 18:39.970 I think also we should be very grateful for the journalists for bringing attention 18:39.970 --> 18:43.670 to these difficulties within the Catholic Church to the public attention. 18:43.770 --> 18:45.670 We must not forget one difference. 18:45.830 --> 18:50.770 I mean, if there is a sex abuse scandal in a football club or also in a political 18:50.770 --> 18:56.930 party, it is different whether it happens in the Catholic Church, which wants to be 18:56.930 --> 18:58.730 the supreme teacher of morality. 18:58.930 --> 19:01.730 Because a football club or a political party... 19:01.730 --> 19:02.490 We don't expect them to... 19:02.490 --> 19:06.790 You're right, Marco, but there have been a terrible... 19:06.790 --> 19:10.490 Let's get to the part about Latin America, because I think apparently that's where, 19:10.770 --> 19:15.290 aside from Europe and here maybe in Italy, it's in Latin America, Brazil, 19:15.410 --> 19:19.610 the biggest country, that is facing the biggest challenges, where it's really 19:19.610 --> 19:21.650 losing a lot of its believers. 19:22.350 --> 19:27.210 Marco Politti, why is Latin America turning its back to the Catholic Church? 19:28.370 --> 19:35.950 Well, one must never forget the situation of humiliation and of material needs of 19:35.950 --> 19:38.550 millions and millions of people in Latin America. 19:38.670 --> 19:40.410 Of course, also in other parts of the world. 19:41.190 --> 19:48.070 I was in many travels of John Paul II with him, and for me it was very important to 19:48.070 --> 19:54.210 come to the favelas, to these places where people live under human dignity. 19:54.210 --> 20:01.830 And during the 70s, a lot of these people in the basis communities and with the 20:01.830 --> 20:07.150 liberation theology had a perspective, maybe an utopistic perspective, 20:07.510 --> 20:13.310 of something new, of the possibility of an advancement, of opening a new page of 20:13.310 --> 20:13.710 history. 20:13.710 --> 20:20.230 The Vatican has crushed down liberation theology in Latin America, and a lot of 20:20.230 --> 20:26.410 people felt abandoned, and so they have turned to the evangelical groups which 20:26.410 --> 20:31.370 promise health, to become rich, to live better. 20:31.950 --> 20:37.170 And this, of course, is also utopistic, but the fact is that from Central America 20:37.170 --> 20:41.250 to South America, a lot of people turn to these evangelical groups. 20:41.250 --> 20:44.410 Millions and millions leave the Catholic Church. 20:44.570 --> 20:52.470 The evangelicals from North America, they finance these confessions, 20:52.870 --> 20:55.690 and they do what the Church doesn't do. 20:56.050 --> 20:59.210 They help, practically, the people. 20:59.750 --> 21:04.490 And that's why there's such a great... they turn their back to the Church, 21:04.590 --> 21:06.650 and they go to the evangelicals for this reason. 21:06.650 --> 21:11.490 But this does not contradict what Marco Politti said, in the sense that there's a 21:11.490 --> 21:14.930 fertile ground, because people are disappointed with the Catholic Church, 21:15.470 --> 21:17.230 as it turns its back on liberation theology. 21:17.510 --> 21:18.990 I don't think so very much. 21:19.230 --> 21:24.470 I think that, really, they meet somebody who can tell, OK, I'll help you to find a 21:24.470 --> 21:28.670 work, I'll help you to find a house, and they have the means to do it. 21:28.930 --> 21:31.410 The Catholic Church is the richest church. 21:32.230 --> 21:32.670 Where? 21:33.210 --> 21:34.850 The Catholic Church is the richest church. 21:34.850 --> 21:44.730 How many hospitals and librosari and health system the Catholic Church have in 21:44.730 --> 21:45.390 all over the world? 21:46.290 --> 21:47.990 So that should be a problem, then, in Latin America? 21:48.270 --> 21:51.490 Well, it's rich here. 21:51.650 --> 21:53.450 I mean, you see beautiful things, but it's not so rich. 21:53.450 --> 21:59.050 Even the Catholic Church hierarchy knows that, for instance, in many parishes are 21:59.050 --> 22:00.670 living a bureaucratic life. 22:00.850 --> 22:04.250 And these evangelical communities give you the sense of community. 22:04.250 --> 22:05.730 That they are more in touch with... 22:05.730 --> 22:10.670 In Brazil, a lot of people, of poor people, pay also taxes to these 22:10.670 --> 22:11.170 communities. 22:11.430 --> 22:15.830 They don't get... so they make a personal sacrifice to be part of the communities 22:15.830 --> 22:18.350 where they sing and live together. 22:18.770 --> 22:23.810 Do you think, Father Turner, before we go to a news break, you think this decline in 22:23.810 --> 22:26.690 the Catholic Church in Latin America and elsewhere, you think this is reversible, 22:26.910 --> 22:28.110 or is it irreversible? 22:28.110 --> 22:33.490 Well, first of all, obviously the Catholic Church remains very strong in Latin 22:33.490 --> 22:33.950 America. 22:34.410 --> 22:37.930 And it's certainly far from perfect. 22:38.070 --> 22:39.230 We're a church of sinners. 22:40.590 --> 22:45.750 And then another point I'd like to emphasize is the other Christian churches 22:45.750 --> 22:47.670 who, as you say, are gaining numbers. 22:47.850 --> 22:50.490 We remember that they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. 22:50.670 --> 22:53.090 And they are Christians, and in that sense we're close to them. 22:53.190 --> 22:56.350 And we're very grateful to them for all the good things they do. 22:56.350 --> 23:01.970 And they also actually help the Catholic Church to be... it criticizes the Catholic 23:01.970 --> 23:03.090 Church and helps the Catholic Church to... 23:03.090 --> 23:05.030 But there must be some competition and jealousy. 23:05.130 --> 23:05.330 What? 23:05.450 --> 23:07.030 There must be some competition and jealousy. 23:07.030 --> 23:11.390 Well, there is competition, but we should also see the cooperation. 23:12.570 --> 23:14.650 Gentlemen, we're going to take a news break. 23:14.730 --> 23:14.990 Good. 23:15.290 --> 23:20.270 And when we come back, we will look at what the next Pope is able to do for the 23:20.270 --> 23:20.770 Catholic Church. 23:21.690 --> 23:22.430 After another news break. 23:29.490 --> 23:31.610 After another news break. 23:31.610 --> 23:34.850 Everything about this place is grand and gilded. 23:35.310 --> 23:36.750 The columns soar. 23:37.290 --> 23:38.630 The costumes shimmer. 23:39.410 --> 23:40.830 The voices echo. 23:42.390 --> 23:43.810 And the crowds roar. 23:44.770 --> 23:51.170 Vatican City, a world unto itself, home to history's most durable hierarchy. 23:52.450 --> 23:57.670 All this began with the Christianization of the Roman Empire, giving birth to an 23:57.670 --> 24:00.550 imperial Vatican, a Catholic empire. 24:02.630 --> 24:08.250 And at the very heart of it, the Pope himself, a medieval emperor in the modern 24:08.250 --> 24:08.790 world. 24:09.790 --> 24:11.690 He who leads for life. 24:12.530 --> 24:18.470 He who presides over powerful Curia, assisted by an assembly of cardinals not 24:18.470 --> 24:21.330 different from the Senate of ancient Rome. 24:22.590 --> 24:29.410 In 1870, the Church officially declared the Pope infallible, incapable of error on 24:29.410 --> 24:31.550 matters of moral and principle. 24:33.510 --> 24:38.790 But supreme though the pontiff may be, his election reflects the Vatican's 24:38.790 --> 24:41.410 responsiveness to the outside world. 24:42.290 --> 24:47.970 Over the last 50 years, three different Popes have left their mark on the Church. 24:48.930 --> 24:52.570 Paul VI was the first Pope to visit the United States. 24:52.990 --> 24:56.930 Leading the Church after the Second Vatican Council, he would begin the 24:56.930 --> 25:00.190 dialogue between the Church and the modern world. 25:01.150 --> 25:08.410 After his death, a political Polish Pope, John Paul II, presided at the height of 25:08.410 --> 25:15.190 the Cold War, setting the Church at the center of a polarized world, daring to 25:15.190 --> 25:18.810 take sides, defying the Soviet Empire. 25:19.850 --> 25:22.610 But the next Pope would turn inward. 25:23.390 --> 25:26.410 Benedict was focused on theology and theory. 25:26.770 --> 25:31.370 His distance and disconnection would lead to a series of major scandals, 25:31.970 --> 25:37.810 widening the rift between Rome and Muslims, Jews, women, and reform-minded 25:37.810 --> 25:39.570 Catholics around the world. 25:40.310 --> 25:45.610 This year brings a new Pope, and the choice of the man now holding the reins of 25:45.610 --> 25:52.490 power suggests that even the Vatican, so set in its ancient ways, is capable of 25:52.490 --> 25:53.830 doing the unexpected. 25:54.650 --> 25:58.330 Really, the election of Pope Francis was a surprise. 25:59.190 --> 26:06.350 And the first Jesuit Pope, the first Latin American Pope, not Italian, not connected 26:06.350 --> 26:07.490 with the Roman Curia. 26:08.170 --> 26:13.530 Even his choice of a name was a surprise, and perhaps a signal. 26:13.770 --> 26:21.130 St. Francis was a man who built his little community against the traditional Church, 26:21.310 --> 26:22.210 against the Curia. 26:22.210 --> 26:31.150 So to see the Pope choose, paradoxically, the name Francis, the anti-Rome 26:31.150 --> 26:34.050 establishment man, is quite extraordinary. 26:34.850 --> 26:39.650 So the big questions of Francis' papacy, can he live up to his name? 26:40.090 --> 26:41.970 Can he overcome the Curia? 26:42.590 --> 26:47.830 Will he offer, like his namesake, a more humble and modest vision of the 26:47.830 --> 26:51.150 Catholic Church, one devoted to peace and the poor? 26:51.150 --> 26:56.290 He is asking the clergy to be credible. 26:56.990 --> 27:00.550 And being credible is about having a lifestyle similar to the one that most 27:00.550 --> 27:04.770 people have, in order to feel closer to them, in order to get inside their hearts, 27:05.130 --> 27:07.010 and in some way, share life with them. 27:08.010 --> 27:13.570 Francis is said to oppose any deviation from conservative Church doctrine on 27:13.570 --> 27:14.470 social issues. 27:15.290 --> 27:21.010 And yet there are high hopes he will get the Church out of its reactionary rut and 27:21.010 --> 27:22.930 steer it in a new direction. 27:24.350 --> 27:27.290 In Latin, pontiff means bridge. 27:27.950 --> 27:32.910 So the question is, can this new Pope bridge the gap between an ancient 27:32.910 --> 27:37.770 institution in crisis and a modern world in turmoil? 27:43.150 --> 27:44.610 Gentlemen, welcome back. 27:45.410 --> 27:49.490 Father Tanner, you've wrote a book about the new history of the Catholic Church. 27:50.570 --> 27:56.070 Tell me, would you say that the Catholic Church is built on the model of the Roman 27:56.070 --> 27:56.390 Empire? 27:57.070 --> 27:58.390 Well, there are certainly big influences. 27:58.770 --> 28:01.670 The Roman Empire was the Roman Empire when Christ was born. 28:01.810 --> 28:05.570 He was part of the Roman Empire, and it had a big influence for the first 28:05.570 --> 28:06.670 400 years. 28:07.250 --> 28:09.550 But the world democratized since. 28:10.090 --> 28:12.990 You think the Catholic Church should probably democratize as well? 28:12.990 --> 28:16.550 Well, we have to... yes and no, should I say. 28:16.830 --> 28:24.210 We have a long history, institutions which have built up, bishops and Pope and so on. 28:26.070 --> 28:31.850 But equally, we have to... the Church has always tried to adapt to the century in 28:31.850 --> 28:36.510 which it's existed, sometimes better and sometimes not so well. 28:36.510 --> 28:41.750 And of course, as has been mentioned, the Vatican too gave a huge impulse to the 28:41.750 --> 28:43.290 Catholic Church to modernize. 28:43.870 --> 28:48.630 Professor Politti, would you say that some of the problems we mentioned in the first 28:48.630 --> 28:53.450 half could have been resolved or could have been avoided if the structure wasn't 28:53.450 --> 28:54.610 so authoritarian? 28:55.610 --> 29:00.910 I would say that it's very interesting what were the first words of Pope Francis 29:00.910 --> 29:06.910 when he got to the loggia and spoke to the Roman people just a few hours after he was 29:06.910 --> 29:07.270 elected. 29:07.850 --> 29:16.810 He said, the Roman Church chairs the other churches with love, which is an old 29:16.810 --> 29:20.690 expression of the first centuries of Christianity. 29:20.690 --> 29:27.310 This means that he wants the Vatican here, the center, not to be a bureaucratic 29:27.310 --> 29:34.930 center, a power center, but more a federative center, who with the other 29:34.930 --> 29:39.930 bishops of the world decides what are the strategies and how to resolve the 29:39.930 --> 29:40.290 problems. 29:40.630 --> 29:45.110 Certainly, a lot of problems come to the Catholic Church by the fact that it is 29:45.110 --> 29:47.750 still structured like an absolute monarchy. 29:47.750 --> 29:54.350 The Pope, until the moment of the election of Francis, was the absolute monarch, 29:54.530 --> 29:56.870 a sort of semi-divine emperor. 29:57.510 --> 30:02.570 The red shoes are still the purple shoes of the Roman emperors. 30:03.150 --> 30:06.590 Pontiff is a pagan name, it's not a Christian name. 30:06.970 --> 30:12.450 And diocese means department in the old administrative division. 30:12.450 --> 30:21.050 So it was modeled over the idea of a Pope, especially in the last 500 years, 30:21.470 --> 30:24.490 of a Pope who decides everything alone. 30:24.670 --> 30:30.850 Now it's the moment that the Pope has to decide and makes its choices together with 30:30.850 --> 30:31.930 the bishops of the world. 30:32.010 --> 30:37.570 Certainly, the Church is a monarchy, but it's a very, very particular monarchy. 30:37.570 --> 30:46.130 I mean, I don't think that in the last 400 years there's been a single decision taken 30:46.130 --> 30:50.210 by a Pope without consulting a lot of other people. 30:50.370 --> 30:51.030 Because he's the emperor. 30:51.390 --> 30:54.010 He's the emperor, no, he's the king. 30:54.650 --> 30:59.410 As an ordinary priest, the ordinary Catholics have a better balance and 30:59.410 --> 31:02.170 they're not really quite as focused on the hierarchy. 31:02.810 --> 31:04.930 But shouldn't they be focused on the hierarchy? 31:04.930 --> 31:08.550 The hierarchy of bishops, Pope, very important, but the life of the Church 31:08.550 --> 31:11.950 very much comes from the faithful, from below. 31:12.070 --> 31:16.650 But it's your, let me call it revisionist reading of the history of the Catholic 31:16.650 --> 31:22.350 Church, that connects the institutionality of the Church with the religious, 31:22.910 --> 31:24.030 strictly religious practices of the Church. 31:24.030 --> 31:24.870 Well, that's a good point. 31:25.030 --> 31:27.650 I mean, there's always been two senses of the Church. 31:28.030 --> 31:29.590 The Church, the word, the Church. 31:29.650 --> 31:32.370 We think of the hierarchy of the Church, Pope and Bishop and so on. 31:32.370 --> 31:36.910 And then secondly, the Church is the people of God, the people of God, 31:36.990 --> 31:37.370 the faithful. 31:37.810 --> 31:41.530 So you have to keep, we need both as it were, but you have to keep them both in 31:41.530 --> 31:41.830 balance. 31:42.190 --> 31:47.390 But do you think the question of the sexual abuse and other issues that were 31:47.390 --> 31:52.190 problematic would have been resolved if there were more transparency and 31:52.190 --> 31:53.450 accountability within the Church? 31:53.510 --> 31:55.230 Yes, and I think I've said that already. 31:55.230 --> 31:58.610 I think that we're grateful for the journalists and other people who've 31:58.610 --> 32:03.710 brought this very serious sin to public knowledge. 32:03.910 --> 32:08.010 And you're absolutely right that the institutional Church did try to cover it 32:08.010 --> 32:08.630 up too much. 32:08.970 --> 32:13.350 And there were also the problems of money and the Vatican Bank and so on and so 32:13.350 --> 32:13.550 forth. 32:13.550 --> 32:24.250 Both Benedict XVI and both John Paul II and both Francis now talk about the 32:24.250 --> 32:25.630 hierarchy as a service. 32:26.170 --> 32:28.250 Now, that's the main point. 32:28.790 --> 32:30.530 What do you mean hierarchy as a service? 32:30.870 --> 32:31.290 Service. 32:31.890 --> 32:32.770 You are here. 32:33.730 --> 32:36.650 I mean, Benedict XVI didn't want to become a Pope. 32:37.110 --> 32:40.370 He was ready to go to his books and so on. 32:40.370 --> 32:41.850 And he accepted. 32:42.250 --> 32:43.690 He accepted as a service. 32:43.910 --> 32:47.190 Yes, he sacrificed himself because he knew very well that he didn't like it. 32:47.690 --> 32:50.170 He has tried already to resign a couple of times. 32:50.270 --> 32:50.970 He didn't want to. 32:51.150 --> 32:53.090 You take a great charge on yourself. 32:53.690 --> 32:57.470 Not because it gives power, because the powers in the world are not the Church. 32:57.610 --> 33:01.190 The powers are petrodollars and a lot of other things, financial... 33:01.190 --> 33:03.250 This is called soft power, Marco, to sacrifice. 33:03.290 --> 33:03.410 Soft. 33:04.890 --> 33:05.330 Soft. 33:05.470 --> 33:08.070 I mean, you don't have a real power. 33:08.070 --> 33:13.310 Regardless of the personal sacrifice of the Pope as an individual, but the 33:13.310 --> 33:15.310 position he holds... 33:15.310 --> 33:17.670 What does it give you? 33:17.790 --> 33:18.010 No, no. 33:18.090 --> 33:21.930 The position he holds is, of course, a very influential social position. 33:21.930 --> 33:25.610 But you cannot take decisions that are against some people because otherwise you 33:25.610 --> 33:26.510 have big problems. 33:26.710 --> 33:34.170 You see, Benedict XVI took some decisions and he had a very divided opinion on some 33:34.170 --> 33:34.550 things. 33:34.550 --> 33:39.090 And he was not very helped, and so that really crushed him. 33:39.690 --> 33:41.870 I mean, from a physical point of view. 33:42.030 --> 33:45.110 So you have to have a consensus, even if you are a monarch. 33:45.570 --> 33:48.550 Father Tanner, the part about infallibility... 33:49.310 --> 33:52.970 I mean, that is pretty problematic for me, that a person, an intelligent person... 33:52.970 --> 33:53.970 Intelligent or otherwise. 33:54.890 --> 33:57.370 Infallibility is a problem for me in the modern world. 33:57.570 --> 34:03.670 Why would we give anybody that is human that quality of never, ever making a 34:03.670 --> 34:03.710 mistake? 34:03.710 --> 34:08.650 Well, I think, may I suggest, you read carefully what the First Vatican Council 34:08.650 --> 34:13.250 in 1870, when it made the definition, and it said that... it didn't simply say 34:13.250 --> 34:14.430 the Pope is infallible. 34:14.610 --> 34:19.030 It said when he is speaking solemnly as Pope on matters of faith and morals, 34:19.310 --> 34:24.610 he enjoys the infallibility, the prevention from error, which Christ willed 34:24.610 --> 34:25.770 his Church to possess. 34:26.650 --> 34:31.050 So that the infallibility of the Pope is put very neatly within the infallibility 34:31.050 --> 34:33.390 which is given to all of us as Christians. 34:33.390 --> 34:36.850 But it was interpreted in various problematic ways throughout history. 34:37.150 --> 34:42.010 It is also interpreted in a very problematic way within the Catholic Church 34:42.010 --> 34:42.610 itself. 34:43.030 --> 34:47.390 I mean, the proclamation of the infallibility of the Pope more than 100 34:47.390 --> 34:55.670 years ago was actually the top of the evolution of the monarchic system. 34:55.950 --> 35:01.790 Since then, only once the infallibility has been used, because the Catholic world 35:01.790 --> 35:06.270 itself, the bishops and the cardinals know that it makes problem. 35:06.870 --> 35:11.630 But what is interesting is to see that in these days, after the election of Pope 35:11.630 --> 35:16.490 Francis, a revolution is going on, at least in the declarations. 35:16.730 --> 35:21.770 Because when the Pope comes out, Francis, and never uses the word pontiff, 35:22.230 --> 35:23.610 it has a meaning. 35:24.030 --> 35:26.690 He speaks about himself only about bishops. 35:26.690 --> 35:30.170 He continues to wear his black shoes. 35:30.490 --> 35:35.350 He doesn't live in the papal apartment, but just in the little hotel within the 35:35.350 --> 35:35.470 Vatican. 35:35.470 --> 35:39.350 So, do you think that Pope Francis is going to be a transformative Pope? 35:39.710 --> 35:42.090 Certainly, he wants to be a transformative Pope. 35:42.190 --> 35:45.410 Otherwise, he wouldn't have named himself Francis. 35:46.230 --> 35:47.910 Which connotates what exactly? 35:48.370 --> 35:53.870 Well, Francis, in the Middle Ages, there was a famous dream of Francis when 35:53.870 --> 35:59.090 Jesus was telling him, come and repair my church, restore my church. 35:59.170 --> 35:59.950 So he's a reformer? 36:00.290 --> 36:02.650 He can be a reformer. 36:02.730 --> 36:05.250 At least we can see now three goals. 36:05.490 --> 36:11.010 The first goal is to reorganize the Roman Curia and to bring also a slimming therapy 36:11.010 --> 36:13.330 to the central government of the church. 36:13.470 --> 36:16.810 The second goal is to bring to the church more transparency. 36:17.090 --> 36:20.550 And certainly he will change also the situation of the Vatican Bank. 36:20.550 --> 36:27.290 And the third big goal is to have a church which is more collegial, as Vatican 36:27.290 --> 36:28.510 Council to ask. 36:28.670 --> 36:29.790 What means collegiality? 36:29.890 --> 36:36.590 It means that the bishops of the world are part of the decision-making process of the 36:36.590 --> 36:38.050 strategy of the Popes. 36:38.370 --> 36:41.850 That the church is ruled by the Pope with the bishops. 36:42.250 --> 36:46.390 This would be really a great revolution in the life of the church. 36:46.490 --> 36:46.490 Transformation. 36:46.510 --> 36:49.410 Well, that sounds pretty transformative for me. 36:49.410 --> 36:52.070 Yes, it will transform something, certainly. 36:52.770 --> 36:56.150 And it was what Benedict XVI wanted to do. 36:57.450 --> 36:58.750 He certainly didn't, right? 36:59.330 --> 37:01.310 He had no strength to do it. 37:01.430 --> 37:05.430 Because, you know, the church, I mean the church top as we know it, 37:05.990 --> 37:10.550 it's been created in the 70s by Paul VI. 37:10.970 --> 37:12.210 Now it's 40 years. 37:12.210 --> 37:17.730 And you don't have an institution which has lasted without changes in its 37:17.730 --> 37:20.650 organization at the top in 40 years. 37:20.750 --> 37:22.250 I mean, certainly, it's high time. 37:22.330 --> 37:23.510 That's not a very positive thing. 37:24.310 --> 37:25.110 Not at all. 37:25.190 --> 37:27.830 But John Paul II didn't want to do it. 37:27.990 --> 37:30.330 And he was not probably much interested. 37:30.430 --> 37:34.590 He wanted to go around and say, OK, I have some good news to tell you. 37:35.030 --> 37:38.830 And Benedict XVI, he did a lot of things. 37:38.830 --> 37:42.430 But he did something that's not covered by the media. 37:42.890 --> 37:44.450 He chased more than 80 bishops. 37:44.970 --> 37:51.790 And he worked every day on the curricula of the new bishops to be appointed. 37:51.930 --> 37:56.470 Because he knew that the church is strong if the bishop is strong and is a good 37:56.470 --> 37:56.890 person. 37:57.430 --> 38:00.950 And all the problems, for instance, the abuse you like so much, well, 38:01.130 --> 38:03.450 they were originated by local bishops. 38:04.350 --> 38:09.770 And some of them were, most of them, I mean, very progressive bishops. 38:09.930 --> 38:14.390 If I can add something, Marco was speaking about John Paul II. 38:14.830 --> 38:19.990 John Paul II understood that he couldn't rule anymore the church just sitting in 38:19.990 --> 38:20.210 Rome. 38:20.350 --> 38:22.850 That's because he was going around all over the world. 38:23.490 --> 38:28.950 And now Pope Francis understands that the bishops from all over the world have to 38:28.950 --> 38:31.090 come to Rome to give him suggestions. 38:31.090 --> 38:39.150 That's the reason why just a few days ago he has formed a crown council. 38:39.330 --> 38:43.810 He has created a crown council of cardinals, of eight cardinals, 38:43.970 --> 38:45.310 of all over the world. 38:45.430 --> 38:50.170 And the Europeans in this crown council are only two Europeans. 38:50.190 --> 38:51.590 And there's an Indian and an African. 38:51.590 --> 38:53.010 There is an Indian and African. 38:53.010 --> 38:54.670 There are three from the Americas. 38:54.970 --> 38:59.530 One from North America, especially the cardinal of Boston, Sean O'Malley, 38:59.690 --> 39:02.240 who was so strong against the sex abuse scandals. 39:02.870 --> 39:04.310 Two from Latin America. 39:04.890 --> 39:11.830 So, Father Turner, the fact that he was elected in the fifth round by 90 39:11.830 --> 39:13.590 cardinals, what does that say to you? 39:14.110 --> 39:18.210 Well, that was a much quicker election than we'd expected, or at least I as an 39:18.210 --> 39:18.570 amateur. 39:18.570 --> 39:25.570 Although, remember, because Benedict had resigned and then we had nearly a month of 39:25.570 --> 39:28.930 actual preparation before the actual concave began. 39:29.110 --> 39:31.450 So it was not so hasty as one might think. 39:31.650 --> 39:37.630 And now with those 90 votes, Marco Politi, do you think Pope Francis is going to have 39:37.630 --> 39:43.750 not just the will but the capacity to impose a new vision for the Church? 39:43.910 --> 39:47.030 Well, he got more votes than Ratzinger. 39:47.810 --> 39:53.530 And just the fact that he created a Crown Council of eight cardinals from all over 39:53.530 --> 39:59.790 the world means also that he wants the bishops and the cardinals to be part of 39:59.790 --> 40:01.050 the renewal process. 40:01.910 --> 40:08.770 And we must not forget that within the Roman Curia, he finds allies in his reform 40:08.770 --> 40:13.610 policy because the Roman Curia is structured in different parties, 40:13.830 --> 40:14.810 if we can say so. 40:14.810 --> 40:21.890 And some parties also before the conclave were absolutely in favor of a Pope coming, 40:22.310 --> 40:25.410 not from Europe, not from Italy, not from the Vatican. 40:25.410 --> 40:28.390 And they were in favor of this Latin American Pope. 40:28.390 --> 40:31.450 And he's an Argentinian, but he's also originally Italian. 40:31.750 --> 40:32.490 Yes, he's a Jesuit. 40:32.630 --> 40:37.230 I mean, that certainly helps him to have a very clear vision of all what is needed. 40:38.070 --> 40:38.790 Why is that? 40:38.890 --> 40:39.370 Why is that? 40:39.370 --> 40:46.770 Because the Jesuits are very well trained and they are capable people, normally 40:46.770 --> 40:47.550 speaking, I think. 40:47.710 --> 40:49.270 They know how to do the hard work. 40:49.530 --> 40:53.090 They know how to do politics within the church and outside the church. 40:53.430 --> 40:55.150 Something that Ratzinger did not do very well? 40:55.230 --> 40:58.970 No, he was absolutely a non-political temperament, a non-geopolitical 40:58.970 --> 40:59.530 temperament. 40:59.530 --> 41:05.910 He was certainly somebody who saw a problem, the cleanness of a church, 41:06.250 --> 41:13.770 and he worked as a devil to leave his successor a stronger and a cleaner church. 41:13.870 --> 41:14.690 That's what he did. 41:15.370 --> 41:16.730 Ratzinger, absolutely, absolutely. 41:16.910 --> 41:20.170 But the church was absent from the world of Marco Tosatti. 41:20.230 --> 41:20.230 Was it? 41:20.230 --> 41:20.710 I don't know. 41:20.830 --> 41:21.330 I don't think so. 41:21.330 --> 41:23.410 Certainly John Paul was part of the present. 41:23.410 --> 41:29.370 If you go around here and you go in a parish and you see how the church is 41:29.370 --> 41:34.110 present in the real world, the people who need something go to the parish. 41:34.370 --> 41:38.090 You don't think John Paul was far more active and far more present in the world 41:38.090 --> 41:38.090 than Ratzinger? 41:38.090 --> 41:39.050 He was a media man. 41:39.150 --> 41:43.410 I loved him very much, but he was a media man and he did a great job. 41:43.410 --> 41:51.410 Ratzinger did really what Kipling said, the toil of serf and sweeper. 41:52.170 --> 41:56.190 A tale of common things, but he did a beautiful, great job. 41:56.330 --> 41:59.410 According to me, he was a great secret pope. 41:59.570 --> 42:04.090 But he was not so present on the international political scene. 42:04.270 --> 42:06.290 Certainly John Paul II was more active. 42:06.690 --> 42:10.330 Ratzinger had absolutely no temperament for geopolitical problems. 42:10.330 --> 42:12.830 Since Marco Politi wrote the book about Ratzinger, we're going to... 42:12.830 --> 42:13.550 But let's say something. 42:13.690 --> 42:17.990 The church, in the political affairs of the world, doesn't count anything. 42:18.790 --> 42:26.410 There's been a Madrid meeting about Terra Santa, Palestine, and the church, 42:26.510 --> 42:29.930 it was the time of John Paul II, was not even invited. 42:30.330 --> 42:34.570 Because the real powers of the world don't give a damn about what the church says. 42:34.570 --> 42:39.910 John Paul made a very clear position, took a very clear position on the war in 42:39.910 --> 42:41.890 Iraq in 2003, and he followed it up. 42:43.470 --> 42:47.570 There have been some major transformations in the Arab world over the last several 42:47.570 --> 42:48.990 years, including the Arab Spring. 42:49.410 --> 42:50.610 We don't hear much from the church. 42:51.850 --> 42:53.990 Well, that's the difference between the two popes. 42:54.350 --> 42:56.310 John Paul II was a geopolitical pope. 42:56.310 --> 43:03.390 He really organized for months a policy in order to isolate Bush and Blair, 43:03.570 --> 43:08.570 who never got the majority of the Security Council, because some Catholic countries, 43:08.990 --> 43:13.350 Mexico and Chile, didn't vote for Bush and Blair in the Security Council. 43:13.650 --> 43:19.790 So at least John Paul II succeeded in showing that the Iraqi war was an American 43:19.790 --> 43:24.470 affair, was not the war of the West against the East and of the Christian 43:24.470 --> 43:26.210 world against Islam. 43:26.750 --> 43:34.570 What is certainly a sign of the failure of Ratzinger as a political pope on the 43:34.570 --> 43:40.670 international scene is the fact that during the Arab Spring, he never made a 43:40.670 --> 43:43.550 wide-range speech on this phenomenon. 43:43.990 --> 43:48.310 The bishops of the Middle East, of course, intervened, spoke and made 43:48.310 --> 43:48.850 declarations. 43:48.850 --> 43:50.550 But not the pope as such. 43:50.650 --> 43:53.010 It's been 50 years since the Second Council. 43:53.910 --> 43:56.090 Do you think it's time for a Third Council? 43:56.250 --> 44:01.390 Do you think Pope Francis is able to do that major transformation that church 44:01.390 --> 44:07.190 needs through a major participatory sort of consultation like a Third Council? 44:08.230 --> 44:17.270 Well, I think the councils come when the Holy Spirit inspires the church to have 44:17.270 --> 44:17.470 them. 44:17.470 --> 44:21.670 We may think that a council is a solution to every problem. 44:21.850 --> 44:22.110 No. 44:22.650 --> 44:26.030 There are a number of these big councils which have gone badly wrong, which we tend 44:26.030 --> 44:26.770 to forget about. 44:27.190 --> 44:32.090 So, personally, I'm cautious about the need to have another council. 44:32.530 --> 44:33.050 Marco Politi? 44:33.150 --> 44:39.170 Cardinal Martini, in the year 1999, asked for a Third Vatican Council or at 44:39.170 --> 44:42.750 least an assembly of representative bishops from all over the world. 44:42.750 --> 44:47.350 He had no great luck, neither with John Paul II nor with Pope Ratzinger. 44:47.850 --> 44:54.450 But I think this little cardinal working group, which has been established by Pope 44:54.450 --> 44:55.230 Francis... 44:55.230 --> 44:55.850 With eight members. 44:55.990 --> 45:00.570 With the eight members from all over the world, can be the first step for 45:00.570 --> 45:03.750 establishing a mechanism of permanent consultations. 45:03.750 --> 45:10.730 And if the bishops have the possibility to meet regularly on special issues, 45:10.930 --> 45:16.050 they can solve some problems which are still on the table, like the problems of 45:16.050 --> 45:18.390 the priests or also the women issue. 45:18.490 --> 45:21.590 More speeches and more documents and more speeches and more documents. 45:22.390 --> 45:23.310 And you don't think that helps? 45:23.470 --> 45:24.350 Oh, I don't think so. 45:24.430 --> 45:27.170 I mean, the Vatican Council still has to be applied. 45:27.730 --> 45:30.590 And I think that's the main problem. 45:30.590 --> 45:39.430 I think that certainly to lead 1,200,000 Catholics from so different places like 45:39.430 --> 45:47.850 Alaska and Mindanao, it's something that needs a great capacity of consultation. 45:48.210 --> 45:50.270 And I think that... but it happens. 45:50.430 --> 45:53.970 I mean, the people here in Rome doesn't pass their time doing this. 45:54.070 --> 45:54.590 They don't? 45:54.590 --> 45:55.170 They don't. 45:55.270 --> 45:55.810 They don't. 45:55.970 --> 46:01.550 Even if John Paul XXIII, when they asked how many people does it work in the 46:01.550 --> 46:03.090 Vatican, he says nearly the half. 46:04.950 --> 46:08.450 They do work and they do this for the church. 46:08.590 --> 46:09.550 I mean... 46:09.550 --> 46:11.470 But they have to decide on new problems. 46:11.730 --> 46:13.230 They have to decide on new problems. 46:13.250 --> 46:14.810 Gentlemen, the discussion goes on. 46:14.930 --> 46:18.550 I must come back in order for us to continue this at other time. 46:18.890 --> 46:21.750 For the time being, thank you for joining Empire. 46:22.010 --> 46:23.290 And I'll be back for a last thought. 46:27.390 --> 46:31.010 Over the last few days, I've been asked whether this program is about religion. 46:31.470 --> 46:31.970 It is not. 46:32.530 --> 46:35.930 As always, Empire is about transnational and global power. 46:36.610 --> 46:38.590 Its use, misuse, and abuse. 46:39.330 --> 46:40.910 The Vatican is no exception. 46:41.830 --> 46:43.890 Power, you see, is about the accumulation of means. 46:44.170 --> 46:48.330 Soft, hard, organizational, financial, all need to be put in check. 46:48.330 --> 46:54.090 In that way, abuse in the church, by the church, or by any other religious 46:54.090 --> 46:57.310 authority needs to be examined without prejudice. 46:58.070 --> 47:03.310 In fact, the greater the presumption of a higher moral calling, the greater the need 47:03.310 --> 47:04.710 for public scrutiny. 47:05.830 --> 47:08.590 Remember, power has no religion. 47:09.590 --> 47:14.390 And remember to follow us on Facebook and Twitter and write to me with your feedback 47:14.390 --> 47:15.510 and suggestions. 47:16.550 --> 47:17.310 Until next time. 47:21.750 --> 47:23.150 Thank you for watching.