WEBVTT

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Bob Trev, so good to have you here.

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I have been reading your magazine,
Freedom's Ring, for some time now and I

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want to tell you that God has raised you
up, brother, for such a time as this.

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You

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have a lot to tell us.

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And before we get into it, let's ask God's
Holy Spirit to be with us.

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Because I want to tell you, from what I
have already heard, you have a tremendous

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wealth of knowledge to share with us.

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So let's ask God's Holy Spirit to be with
us right now.

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Will you kneel with me?

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Dear Heavenly Father, I pray that you will
be with my brother Bob Trev.

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Dear Father, I thank you for raising him
up for such a critical time as this in the

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Seventh-day Adventist Church.

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Touch his lips with a hot coal from thine
altar now, dear Father, as he brings to us

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the revelations that he has found
happening, not only in the world,

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but in the Church, and how it leads to
end-time prophecy.

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To thy name's honor and glory we dedicate
this video in the holy and blessed name of

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Jesus and for his sake.

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Amen.

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Bob,

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when I was on vacation recently,
I took this bound volume of Freedom's Ring

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that you sent me, and I went through it
with a highlighter pen.

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And I want to tell you, brother,
it's been a long time since I have seen

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any document that has shaken me like this
material that you have put together.

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The Lord has given you a knowledge and an
insight into what is happening within our

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Church.

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And what we want to do on this video is
just to let you talk and reveal to God's

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people the things that you have uncovered
and put it on video for God's historic

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Adventist people to realize where we are
in this Church and in this Earth's

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history.

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Before we get into this, though,
I would like to know, and I think the

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Adventist people watching this video would
like to know also, what your history has

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been.

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I've got to be perfectly honest with you.

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A year ago, I'd never heard of Bob Drez.

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I didn't know who you were.

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And suddenly, I see this Freedom's Ring
everywhere and all this wonderful material

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and people talking about the material that
you have brought out.

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Give us a little bit of your history.

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Have you been a Seventh-day Adventist all
your life?

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Have you been through our educational
system?

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How did Freedom's Ring come into
existence?

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Give us an update.

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How did you get where you are now,
Bob?

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First of all, John, I'd like to say it's
really wonderful to be with you.

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We've enjoyed our experience here.

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And we feel that we owe you a real debt
for the work that you've done with your

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Celebration series.

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It has awakened the Church like nothing
else has.

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And it's a real honor to be here with you.

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I'm a third-generation Adventist,
John, and I grew up loving the Lord,

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had godly parents.

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I spent a lot of time hiking out in nature
as a boy and teenager, and I still do.

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I always have loved the influence of the
Spirit of God coming through the Word as

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well as the natural world.

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And as a boy, I was keenly aware about the
Second Advent.

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I had a picture of it in my bedroom.

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And I remember even praying to the Lord
that the Lord would somehow give me a

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dream of what it might be like at the
Second Advent.

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And I was keenly aware also about end-time
events.

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I suppose it was about at the age of 11
that I picked up the Great Controversy,

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not this one.

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But I was so astounded by what I read,
it gripped my heart like I think probably

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nothing I had ever read had gripped it.

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And I wondered, why am I not hearing these
things in sermons?

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This is absolutely fascinating.

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And my heart was just charmed by the story
of the Reformation and Luther and the

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Waldensees.

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And ever since then, whenever I've been
able to obtain old books on the subject of

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historical theology, I've gotten a hold of
them, read them.

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I love d'Aubigné's History of the
Reformation that Ellen and James White

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would read by the hour, Sabbath
afternoons.

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And as I went on through my educational
experience in academy and then in college,

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I felt a deepening hungering for the Lord.

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And I got to the point in college where I
would be spending three and four hours a

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day studying the Bible and the spirit of
prophecy.

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I had a Honda Trail 90 and I loved to go
up into the North Georgia mountains,

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the mountains of Tennessee, where the
sparkling lakes and the rivers and

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waterfalls and commune with the Lord.

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Now did you go to college at Southern
Missionary College?

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Right.

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That's where I was.

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I went there as well as at Atlantic Union
College.

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Came through our educational system except
for when I was in kindergarten and first

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grade was public school.

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So you were born and raised a Seventh-day
Adventist and came up through our

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educational system just like I did.

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I got to ask you, how old are you Bob?

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Forty-two.

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Forty-two.

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You beat me by two years.

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I just turned 40.

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So we come from the same generation.

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I think that's obvious.

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That's right.

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Both born and raised in the Seventh-day
Adventist Church.

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Now what happened in your college years?

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You gave me a little hint of that earlier.

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You know John, that's an interesting point
you make.

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We're both of the same generation,
same vintage.

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And we have seen the complete turning
inside out of our movement.

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And that has concerned both of us and led
us to do what we're doing.

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But your question was, what did I see in
college that stimulated and concerned me?

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Yes.

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Well, in the college dorm, you could walk
from one end of the dorm to the other,

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400 fellows, and not miss one word of the
main rock station in Chattanooga.

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Oh, you found that to be true in your dorm
too, huh?

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It was so bad, there was a young student,
a doctor's son there, who was 16 years

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old.

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And he came one day to my room and he
said, Bob, I am losing my mind here.

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The intense worldliness, doors open with
the music just pouring through the

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hallways, no relief.

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So I said to him, I have the answer for
you.

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And I said, you come with me.

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And we hopped on my Trail 90, and one hour
in the mountains he was just fine.

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But it was during that time that I read
the statement of the Spirit of Prophecy

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that the hours of sunrise and sunset are
God's appointed time for meeting with the

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youth.

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And I would jump on my cycle and go out
and be there when the sun rose and be up

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in the hills when the sun set,
just worshiping God.

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It was the most thrilling experience.

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And those rides out in the mountain,
it was an enig type of experience.

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I was 19 years old and, you know,
the ages around that.

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And I just reveled in the freedom and the
communion with God.

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To me it was the greatest thing in the
world to be able to commune with the

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Creator.

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Well, what started happening when you were
in college that helped you to realize that

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things were not on course as far as we as
the Seventh-day Adventists.

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You mentioned to me earlier that you
started to realize that in 20 years things

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were going to be drastically different.

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Because our colleagues, the age group that
you and I went to school with,

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are now in leadership positions in the
church.

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And you realized that then and you said in
20 years there is going to be a terrible

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upheaval in the Seventh-day Adventist
church.

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Because these are the church
administrators being trained right now.

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What was that in the 70s?

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Late 60s?

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Early 70s?

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Has that been true?

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Was that prophetic, Bob?

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Absolutely.

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As I looked around me, I knew there was a
titanic struggle.

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And John, this issue goes far beyond just
theology, which is very critical.

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It goes into the very core of our
experience.

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With the fear of the Lord, are we going to
surrender and submit to the Lord or are we

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going to imbibe of these things?

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And as I looked around, I said to myself,
in 20 years, we're going to see upheavals

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in this church like you wouldn't believe.

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You said earlier, I appreciate so much,
Bob, your honesty and forthrightness.

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And you admitted to me, you said,
John, I've got to be honest and truthful

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with you that I got caught up in the Ford
heresy.

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Tell us about that.

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Well, after I did a stint in Africa under
the Adventist Volunteer Service Corps,

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teaching college and academy right out of
the Bible, incidentally, in the spirit of

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prophecy.

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It was a tremendous experience.

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And I had a good, excellent Bible teacher
in college who comprehended the great

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controversy issues.

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That was very meaningful to me.

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And I came back and I attended the
seminary.

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I was very shocked by the ecumenical
stance of the seminary.

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I will say this, there are some good men
there, but the overall caste is an

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ecumenical type of caste and network.

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I found the same thing to be true in my
theological training.

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It was very disturbing.

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There is, of course, new theology being
taught there.

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We know that 20-20 vision now is being
used.

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And whole departments are in that
category.

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How did you get sucked up into this Ford
thing, though, Bob?

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Well, what happened was, after five
quarters at the seminary, I went to... my

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wife and I...

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This is Ed Andrews.

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Ed Andrews, right.

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I knew I had to answer some of these
questions.

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Even after having studied the spirit of
prophecy in the Bible for hours,

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every day for years, it was so disturbing
to me, the things that I encountered,

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that I knew I needed time to answer these
questions for myself.

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Was it the situation with the heavenly
sanctuary, the things they were twisting

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concerning that?

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That's what I found when I was at Southern
Missionary College.

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It was... with me, it was... it didn't
jibe with the Book of Great Controversy.

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It didn't jibe with the Three Angels'
Messages.

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You know, we use...

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What didn't jibe?

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What they were saying?

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The whole caste of the approach at the
seminary bothered me.

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The approach toward Rome was very
significant.

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Here, I, you know, I was... I cut my teeth
on...

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Great Controversy.

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Great Controversy.

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And it didn't square up.

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It didn't square up with what I had
taught.

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In fact, I had a class there right after I
came back from Africa in which we had

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outright ecumenical books.

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One was by James F.

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White, New Forms of Worship, where it
advocated dancing, hiring professional

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dancers to dance on the stage for worship.

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This is at seminary at Andrews.

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And recommended beyond that, even having
the congregations dance.

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And then our people wonder why our
preachers are the way they are today.

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And those with white hair in the Adventist
church say, You know, the things we're

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hearing from the pulpits today don't match
what we heard 30, 40 years ago.

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And they have a hard time understanding
why there's been this big shift.

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It's because our ministry has been trained
in ecumenicalism.

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Not only that, it started long before that
in the educational system, as you know,

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John.

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There was one very dedicated professor
there at the seminary who sometimes had to

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fast for days before he approached certain
subjects because of the hostility of the

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fellows who had been trained in our
colleges.

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They come into this with it fastened on
them early on.

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Anyway, in this particular class,
I had to critique the book.

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And I said, of course, well, this man had
even recommended, he said, we are past the

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literary era.

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And so we need to use the banners of love
and peace.

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And we're beyond the stage where people
will read the Bible and that type of

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thing.

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So I said, of course, this man is an
ecumenical and we cannot go along with

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what he's saying.

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We have to find our principles of worship
in the word of God and the spirit of

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prophecy.

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The professor was furious.

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He came into class with the sheaf of
analyses that the students had done.

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And he built up, as he was reading them,
finally got to mine at the end.

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And he said, brethren, ecumenism is not a
dirty word.

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And his face was just flushed with anger.

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He took excerpts from my paper and twisted
them out of context.

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And a couple of weeks later, he called me
into his office and he asked me the

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question.

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He said, are you an American?

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And I said, yes.

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He said, have you been a lifelong
Adventist?

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I said, yes.

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And he said, are your parents Adventists?

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And I said, yes.

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And questions like this.

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And finally he said to me, I noticed you
came down hard on the book we had for

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class.

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And I said, yes.

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And he said, now if this man was sitting
here in this chair, don't you think we

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ought to talk to him?

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Of course, meaning ecumenical.

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But I took it in a little different vein.

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And I said, I'd be happy to talk to the
man.

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But I said, as far as his book goes,
it was directly contrary to the first

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angel's message.

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And the professor's mouth metaphorically
dropped open and I got up and walked out

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of the office.

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But this is the kind of thing you
encounter.

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This is exactly what I encountered at
Southern College.

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Exactly.

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You know, I had been there my freshman
year in 1970.

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But then I went my sophomore and junior
year to last year.

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But then I had dropped out because I had
become disillusioned.

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But when the Lord called me distinctively
into the ministry and I went back to

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Southern College in 1979.

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This is exactly what I found at Southern
College.

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And I would find myself at odds with my
entire theology class and professor.

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Defending 1844, a day for a year,
the heavenly sanctuary, character

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perfection, Ellen White, our cardinal
doctrines.

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It was unbelievable.

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I couldn't believe the things were
happening.

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And to find out that the same exact thing
happened to you in our colleges.

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Well, I went, John, I took a break then
and went and worked with my dad's medical

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practice.

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Giving Bible studies.

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We remodeled a number of houses for
finances.

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We were on deferred appointment to Africa.

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And the conference ultimately offered me a
district.

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But at that time I needed to go back and
finish up my MDiv.

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And I ultimately went on for my MTH and
basically took the bulk of the class work

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was doctoral work.

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And about the time I began my thesis for
the MTH, I went back in the field.

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And I've been so busy ever since.

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And I was a college teacher.

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But in that break, at the end...

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You were a college teacher.

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So you've also taught on the college
level.

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Oh, yes.

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In fact, I taught virtually every
undergraduate course that is usually

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taught.

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Including some that aren't usually taught
like Biblical Aramaic.

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How did you get to the mindset where you
are today?

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How did you get in the groove of historic
Adventism and come out of all of this

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stuff?

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That's what people ask me.

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John, how did you go through our
educational system and get to where you

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are today?

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And I want to ask you that question now.

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Well, I knew it would be a battle at the
seminary.

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And particularly after our first stint,
when we went back the second time,

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I guarded, first of all, very carefully
the communion with God.

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I had prayer walks in the morning,
in the evening.

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I took my family for prayer walks morning
and evening.

15:20.680 --> 15:22.440
There were families breaking up around us.

15:22.840 --> 15:25.280
There were faculty families breaking up.

15:26.720 --> 15:30.200
There were fellows selling their Spirit of
Prophecy books, leaving the ministry,

15:30.360 --> 15:32.420
leaving the faith, all of that type of
thing.

15:32.420 --> 15:37.820
And I devoted a certain segment of each
day specifically for answering the

15:37.820 --> 15:41.720
questions that had arisen in my own mind
as a result of doubts that had been raised

15:41.720 --> 15:42.300
in classes.

15:43.060 --> 15:51.500
I had one class that was so, so subtly
satanic that I had to spend two hours each

15:51.500 --> 15:56.100
time after that class, after virtually
every class period, in communion with the

15:56.100 --> 15:58.800
Lord to get rid of the evil spirit that
haunted me after being in that class.

15:58.800 --> 16:05.520
Sometimes in my classes at Southern
College, I would find myself weeping

16:05.520 --> 16:09.620
because I found my theology being
rearranged.

16:09.740 --> 16:16.700
And I found my mind being rearranged and
twisted by, you know, trying to take on

16:16.700 --> 16:21.320
one student, trying to take on the entire
theology class and professors.

16:21.580 --> 16:22.760
That's awesome, Bob.

16:22.960 --> 16:26.220
Yet I found that day after day after day,
and it got to the place where I didn't

16:26.220 --> 16:31.300
want to go to class anymore because I
found out that defending historic

16:31.300 --> 16:33.840
Adventism made me an outcast.

16:34.060 --> 16:39.860
But, you know, I realized that the Lord,
Bob, was preparing me for this time now.

16:39.880 --> 16:41.260
When you look back, you can see it.

16:41.260 --> 16:45.640
Yes, the Lord, if I couldn't have taken
the onslaught that I got at Southern

16:45.640 --> 16:51.540
College as a student there, I could not
withstand the persecution and revilement

16:52.280 --> 16:54.260
that I'm taking now in this independent
ministry.

16:54.340 --> 16:55.580
So the Lord was preparing us.

16:55.780 --> 16:56.400
Praise His name.

16:56.400 --> 17:00.840
But you asked specifically, John,
about how did I get into this groove.

17:01.480 --> 17:07.100
And about the end of the time when we had
taken the break, just before I went back

17:07.100 --> 17:13.260
to the seminary to continue my studies,
we began getting Ford tapes.

17:13.440 --> 17:16.060
Ford had just come here from Australia to
PUC.

17:16.420 --> 17:21.920
And he was saying that justification is
the third angel's message in verity.

17:21.980 --> 17:23.600
It's exactly what Ellen White says.

17:24.320 --> 17:26.940
And he's a very engaging personality.

17:27.060 --> 17:29.900
Very humble in his appearance and all.

17:30.200 --> 17:35.040
And I suppose I listened to about eight
different sermons as I was working,

17:35.160 --> 17:36.000
remodeling houses.

17:36.380 --> 17:37.360
He's clever, Bob.

17:38.000 --> 17:38.820
He's clever.

17:39.360 --> 17:43.060
When we came back to the seminary,
the Fordite movement was in full swing

17:43.060 --> 17:43.440
there.

17:43.540 --> 17:47.800
And there were many Australian students,
many American students, lawyers,

17:48.180 --> 17:49.860
others who were entering the ministry.

17:49.860 --> 17:50.180
Brilliant people.

17:50.360 --> 17:51.000
Bright as light.

17:51.080 --> 17:51.720
Very keen.

17:51.860 --> 17:52.240
Yes.

17:52.240 --> 17:55.420
And these were our predominant friends.

17:55.660 --> 17:56.800
We ate in their homes.

17:56.940 --> 17:58.280
They ate in our home.

17:58.840 --> 18:06.280
We had fellowship and we had many
experiences together.

18:06.560 --> 18:10.180
But that fall, I went back to school in
the summertime, but that fall,

18:10.940 --> 18:17.640
I received the Pacific Union College forum
tape in which Ford began exposing what his

18:17.640 --> 18:19.660
real position was on the sanctuary.

18:19.660 --> 18:22.800
And that was what really began triggering
things in my experience.

18:22.920 --> 18:25.100
And I knew something horrendously was
wrong.

18:25.200 --> 18:27.160
It didn't jibe with Great Controversy.

18:27.220 --> 18:30.900
It didn't jibe with our historic Adventist
position on the sanctuary.

18:31.180 --> 18:35.240
I began getting up at 3 o'clock in the
morning, night after night, reading

18:35.240 --> 18:43.620
Leviticus 16 in Hebrew, Daniel 8 in
Hebrew, Hebrews 8 through 10 in Greek,

18:44.140 --> 18:45.060
wrestling with it.

18:45.100 --> 18:49.640
I remember one time I went on a walk and I
said, Lord, give me light on this.

18:49.880 --> 18:57.760
And so I not only began researching that
subject in depth, but I began studying one

18:57.760 --> 19:01.140
subject after another of Ford's entire
theological package.

19:01.640 --> 19:06.580
I studied his issue on the nature of sin,
his doctrine, compared it with Ellen White

19:06.580 --> 19:11.000
and the Scriptures, the nature of Christ,
the issue of obedience, justification,

19:11.460 --> 19:15.700
sanctification, Sabbath, sanctuary,
how the whole package fit together.

19:15.700 --> 19:21.540
And I came to the conclusion that there
were two systems of theology struggling

19:21.540 --> 19:25.700
for the mastery in a life-and-death combat
in our structure.

19:26.220 --> 19:29.920
And during this time, that fall,
I was in the Fordite movement.

19:30.040 --> 19:35.220
I was the acting treasurer, and at
Christmas time they put my name up to be

19:35.220 --> 19:36.680
president of the organization.

19:37.320 --> 19:42.640
And I declined because I had had enough
doubts at that point as to where it was

19:42.640 --> 19:46.640
going, and I told them I don't know enough
about where this movement is going.

19:46.840 --> 19:51.020
I did further research, and I came to the
point about February, it must have been,

19:51.080 --> 19:51.860
of the next year.

19:52.180 --> 19:52.780
What year was that?

19:53.420 --> 19:54.940
That would have been 81.

19:56.640 --> 19:58.640
No, no, no, sorry, that would have been
80.

19:59.620 --> 20:04.400
I came to the point that it was not of the
Lord.

20:04.440 --> 20:09.440
In fact, even the justification concepts
were forensic-only justification instead

20:09.440 --> 20:13.260
of the kind of concept we see in 1
Selected Messages 366.

20:14.160 --> 20:19.160
It's fascinating to note that this was
taking place in 1980, because in 79 and 80

20:19.160 --> 20:24.540
is when the Lord was pulling me as a brand
from the burning into a particular

20:24.540 --> 20:27.480
ministry that He had for me.

20:27.720 --> 20:31.900
And that's exactly, it looks, the time
that God was pulling you as a brand from

20:31.900 --> 20:36.440
the burning out of another lifestyle,
out of another movement into the work that

20:36.440 --> 20:37.420
He had for you to do.

20:37.680 --> 20:41.700
I saw on the road to Damascus experience
in preparation for what He really had for

20:41.700 --> 20:44.160
you to do at that time of 1980.

20:44.300 --> 20:45.860
That's when it was happening in my life,
too.

20:45.920 --> 20:47.580
That's exciting, Bob, to realize.

20:47.720 --> 20:51.340
Yeah, I would like to emphasize,
John, that the fellows that were in this

20:51.340 --> 20:53.980
movement were determined to take over this
church.

20:54.140 --> 20:54.600
Oh, absolutely.

20:54.860 --> 21:00.060
Their philosophy and their theology was we
are going to stay in this church and take

21:00.060 --> 21:00.380
it over.

21:00.460 --> 21:01.160
Take it over from the inside.

21:01.340 --> 21:05.440
The way the organization functioned on the
campus, there was a hardcore group of

21:05.440 --> 21:06.460
those who could be trusted.

21:07.320 --> 21:10.940
And we had, for instance, one time I
remember a missionary came through who had

21:10.940 --> 21:14.620
been let go in the Far East for his
doctrinal positions.

21:15.200 --> 21:22.680
He presented in eight areas in which the
New Theology needed to take over the

21:22.680 --> 21:23.020
church.

21:23.360 --> 21:28.000
He went on afterwards to get his
doctorate, and now he's teaching at the

21:28.000 --> 21:28.400
seminary.

21:28.480 --> 21:31.020
He was taken in immediately after
completion of his doctorate.

21:31.500 --> 21:34.920
And significant things have happened since
he has been back there.

21:34.920 --> 21:40.160
But then they would hold big meetings
where a professor who was in secret

21:40.160 --> 21:44.860
sympathy with this movement would speak,
but the general public didn't realize it.

21:45.480 --> 21:47.300
And during the meeting, the place would be
packed.

21:47.400 --> 21:49.000
He'd be a popular, eloquent speaker.

21:50.080 --> 21:53.660
The leaders of the movement would watch
the audience carefully, and anyone that

21:53.660 --> 21:57.320
they noted that was paying particularly
close attention, they would corner them on

21:57.320 --> 22:00.020
the way out and seek to draw them into the
group.

22:00.020 --> 22:06.140
I came to the point when I was convinced,
and I saw clearly, of the two systems of

22:06.140 --> 22:10.320
theology struggling for the mastery,
and that this was a false movement.

22:11.320 --> 22:16.200
I went in, I took to a committee meeting,
and I took my materials, and I handed them

22:16.200 --> 22:21.560
over, and I said, this movement is going
nowhere, and it is not the movement that

22:21.560 --> 22:22.660
we are called to give.

22:23.020 --> 22:24.620
And their mouths dropped open.

22:24.720 --> 22:26.420
I got up and walked out.

22:26.420 --> 22:31.080
That summer, Glacier View took place.

22:35.060 --> 22:38.160
And at Glacier View, you know what
happened there.

22:38.640 --> 22:42.000
Men came in from all over the world at
great expense.

22:42.420 --> 22:51.540
Ford had spent six months preparing a
999-page document that gathered virtually

22:51.540 --> 22:57.820
every argument from history and current
thought against the sanctuary that could

22:57.820 --> 23:00.100
be mustered at church expense.

23:01.300 --> 23:06.400
And at that point in 1981, his sanctuary
position was condemned.

23:06.560 --> 23:12.000
I might say that Ford got his doctorate at
the University of Manchester.

23:12.200 --> 23:13.640
His major professor was F.F.

23:13.720 --> 23:17.900
Bruce, who was Plymouth Brethren,
once saved, always saved individual.

23:18.760 --> 23:25.200
And the Antiochus Epiphanes was seen as
the Antichrist in that dissertation.

23:25.440 --> 23:27.280
We studied Bruce when I was in college,
too.

23:27.400 --> 23:31.680
I remember one theology class that I had
where they were just bringing in all of

23:31.680 --> 23:34.180
these theologians, and I raised such a
stink.

23:34.260 --> 23:36.120
I said, why are we going to these men?

23:36.200 --> 23:37.560
Why are we learning from these men?

23:37.840 --> 23:41.260
And exactly the same situation happened
with you, happened with me, where the

23:41.260 --> 23:47.200
professor's face flushed red, and he just
became indignant that one of the theology

23:47.200 --> 23:50.500
students would question what he was doing
in the books that he was using.

23:51.300 --> 23:53.880
Yeah, it's amazing.

23:54.440 --> 23:55.400
And go ahead, John.

23:55.420 --> 23:57.460
Okay, Bob, I've just got two questions.

23:57.860 --> 24:00.800
How did you start publishing Freedom's
Ring?

24:00.960 --> 24:02.580
And what are all these books?

24:02.660 --> 24:04.260
I mean, they haven't even seen these on
videos.

24:04.620 --> 24:08.760
But folks, over here on two tables are
books.

24:08.880 --> 24:10.960
I mean, books and books and books.

24:10.960 --> 24:14.280
And I want to know what you have found in
your research.

24:14.500 --> 24:18.860
We can take a little bit more time to cap
off your history and to bring you into the

24:18.860 --> 24:21.740
arena of where you're publishing Freedom's
Ring now.

24:21.900 --> 24:27.660
But I want to show these books and the
material and how it relates to us as

24:27.660 --> 24:29.140
Seventh-day Adventists today.

24:29.700 --> 24:33.840
So bring us up to speed now to where you
are in publishing Freedom's Ring,

24:33.920 --> 24:34.900
how you got to this place.

24:34.900 --> 24:39.400
Well, while I was teaching college,
I've always loved religious liberty.

24:39.540 --> 24:41.320
One of my ancestors is William Penn.

24:43.140 --> 24:44.740
We had Huguenot ancestors.

24:45.260 --> 24:46.340
It's in my blood.

24:46.840 --> 24:50.680
And ever since college days, I've been
interested in religious liberty.

24:50.880 --> 24:51.920
And so I began studying it.

24:51.960 --> 24:57.720
I began realizing that I had to give an
answer myself at the end of time,

24:58.180 --> 25:02.440
personally, and give an account for where
I stood on these issues.

25:02.440 --> 25:05.320
And I knew I couldn't leave that research
up to anyone else.

25:05.460 --> 25:07.900
I began buying constitutional law books.

25:08.240 --> 25:10.520
I began speaking and writing on the
subject.

25:10.680 --> 25:13.980
And various ones began encouraging me
strongly to start up a paper.

25:14.380 --> 25:16.400
Actually, I'd wanted to do that for years.

25:16.940 --> 25:19.540
And finally we launched Freedom's Ring.

25:20.080 --> 25:24.060
And I do research, writing, editing.

25:24.360 --> 25:25.300
Now I love it.

25:25.420 --> 25:26.520
It's tremendous.

25:26.520 --> 25:32.260
Well, I tell you, I was sure edified by
this bound volume of Freedom's Ring that

25:32.260 --> 25:33.900
you sent me before I went on vacation.

25:33.960 --> 25:37.880
I was able to spend some time just going
through it page by page.

25:38.280 --> 25:46.920
I want to find out what is the first
inclination that you had of us heading

25:46.920 --> 25:48.640
toward Catholicism.

25:48.640 --> 25:49.620
Was it in college?

25:50.060 --> 25:56.440
When did you come to realize that a major
move was underway to get the Adventist

25:56.440 --> 26:00.460
church into the ecumenical movement and
embracing Catholicism?

26:00.500 --> 26:04.600
Because that is basically what you have
covered in page after page after page

26:04.600 --> 26:04.860
here.

26:05.240 --> 26:10.560
And it's in such depth that I'm wondering
how long have you been aware of this?

26:10.600 --> 26:12.040
How long have you been working on this?

26:12.340 --> 26:16.720
How long has it been since God has been
revealing this to your mind?

26:16.720 --> 26:21.340
Because many laymen today, and myself
included, realize that this is happening.

26:21.780 --> 26:23.540
When did you start getting wind of this?

26:24.440 --> 26:27.200
First of all, John, I want to give all the
glory to God.

26:27.320 --> 26:32.560
Because there are times when God has led
me in a bookstore to a certain page as

26:32.560 --> 26:33.480
I've opened the book.

26:33.740 --> 26:37.660
And I have said to myself, I've got to buy
this book just for that one sentence.

26:39.960 --> 26:44.780
Well, the question is, how did I begin to
become aware of Catholicism?

26:44.840 --> 26:46.360
I'd like to show you a book here,
John.

26:46.360 --> 26:48.020
Well, show us these books that you've got,
Bob.

26:51.680 --> 26:55.620
We're going to have to bring a camera over
here a little bit and show these viewers

26:55.620 --> 26:57.460
the close-up of this.

26:57.680 --> 26:59.080
But this is a tremendous amount.

26:59.120 --> 27:02.900
I mean, you've got hundreds of dollars
right here just in books.

27:02.980 --> 27:04.380
This is just a fraction of it,
John.

27:04.500 --> 27:08.800
And when you came to speak here at Rolling
Hills last Sabbath, it was so funny.

27:09.100 --> 27:10.840
You brought one big case of books in.

27:11.000 --> 27:13.420
Then somebody was following you,
I think it was your son, with another big

27:13.420 --> 27:13.960
case of books.

27:14.160 --> 27:15.540
And then another big case of books.

27:15.540 --> 27:17.800
And I said, I thought I carried around a
lot of books.

27:17.900 --> 27:19.440
This is phenomenal material.

27:19.820 --> 27:20.940
Let's just start in.

27:21.100 --> 27:25.280
And you start showing us book by book,
page by page, the things that you have

27:25.280 --> 27:25.600
found.

27:26.380 --> 27:32.000
Well, John, just as we were starting to
launch Freedom's Ring, I walked into a

27:32.000 --> 27:32.340
bookstore.

27:34.220 --> 27:38.940
And there was this book, The Keys of This
Blood, The Struggle for World Dominion.

27:39.340 --> 27:40.060
Malachi Martin.

27:40.260 --> 27:43.200
John Paul II, Mikhail Gorbachev,
and The Capitalist West.

27:43.200 --> 27:46.260
And I instantly knew that was a
significant book.

27:46.500 --> 27:53.040
In fact, the first issue of Freedom's Ring
dealt with just a quick synopsis of this

27:53.040 --> 27:53.440
book.

27:54.280 --> 28:04.080
And I immediately recognized that this was
completely the flip side of the coin of

28:04.080 --> 28:04.840
great controversy.

28:04.940 --> 28:07.760
What Ellen White says in the chapter,
Liberty of Conscience Threatened.

28:08.220 --> 28:11.400
Actually, I should back up just a little
bit here, John.

28:11.400 --> 28:16.100
We had started a study group in which we
were studying the celebration issue.

28:16.700 --> 28:20.960
And we had been studying out of modern
revivals and the great controversy,

28:21.180 --> 28:28.500
showing that this Pentecostalism was the
foretold false revival that is seeking to

28:28.500 --> 28:29.240
blunt the true.

28:29.760 --> 28:35.380
And, John, really what I see happening
right now in the Church is a titanic

28:35.380 --> 28:40.260
spiritual struggle of the Lord trying to
bring about the revival of primitive

28:40.260 --> 28:40.740
godliness.

28:40.740 --> 28:48.480
And certain agencies under the influence
of Christ's adversary doing everything

28:48.480 --> 28:50.100
possible to block it.

28:51.560 --> 28:56.740
But the connection with the papacy came
much more clearly.

28:57.500 --> 29:04.520
I noticed that Malachi Martin tells of how
the papacy was involved in bringing down

29:04.520 --> 29:09.580
the Iron Curtain, in the swift
developments that took place in Eastern

29:09.580 --> 29:12.100
Europe with the demise of Communism there.

29:12.860 --> 29:20.080
I had also been speaking, John,
about Penny Lerneau's book, The People of

29:20.080 --> 29:22.500
God, The Struggle for World Catholicism.

29:23.020 --> 29:28.480
And in this book, Penny Lerneau,
who is a liberal Catholic writer and

29:28.480 --> 29:34.360
worker in South America and Inter-America,
tells of how John Paul II is wanting to

29:34.360 --> 29:39.380
take the entire world back to the way it
was before the Protestant Reformation.

29:40.080 --> 29:45.440
It's a movement called Reconstructionism,
and it is a movement that involves

29:45.440 --> 29:51.400
integralism, which means integrating all
of life under the domination of the

29:51.400 --> 29:52.660
papacy.

29:53.400 --> 29:57.920
And so I was aware of some of these
developments that were taking place.

29:57.920 --> 30:06.180
In Malachi Martin's book, he discusses in
a chapter there the picture of John Paul

30:06.180 --> 30:12.740
II contemplating the world scene and
categorizing each ideological entity that

30:12.740 --> 30:18.000
he is having to overcome in his drive for
global domination over every individual,

30:18.200 --> 30:22.760
over every nation, over every religion,
over everything in the world.

30:22.760 --> 30:29.100
And in one compartment, in one room,
he classifies the minimalists,

30:29.480 --> 30:32.400
and Seventh-day Adventism appears right
there.

30:32.540 --> 30:34.000
It's right in the book.

30:35.020 --> 30:39.900
And the position of John Paul II,
according to Malachi Martin, as he surveys

30:39.900 --> 30:43.700
the Seventh-day Adventists and people in
that category, the minimalists are people

30:43.700 --> 30:47.920
who don't believe that they will ever have
a majority of the human population on

30:47.920 --> 30:48.400
their side.

30:49.860 --> 30:56.140
He says that the Seventh-day Adventists,
the minimalists, are going to have to fit

30:56.140 --> 30:59.380
into the New World Order or become
extinct.

31:00.920 --> 31:01.880
Or become extinct.

31:02.060 --> 31:07.260
Does that remind you of Revelation 13
about us being killed?

31:07.820 --> 31:08.420
Absolutely.

31:08.600 --> 31:11.020
Verse 15, I believe it is, that they shall
be killed.

31:11.140 --> 31:15.340
That if we do not go along with what they
want, we will become extinct.

31:15.340 --> 31:22.780
And he says individuals may hold out for a
longer time, but it will come to the point

31:22.780 --> 31:26.100
where they'll have to fit in, or else
become extinct.

31:27.580 --> 31:34.200
And so, we dealt in the second issue of
Freedom's Ring with John Paul's confident

31:34.200 --> 31:38.340
assessment of the minimalists,
and Seventh-day Adventists in particular,

31:38.740 --> 31:43.520
that they will be absorbed into the full
faith of the Roman Catholic Church,

31:43.880 --> 31:44.380
ultimately.

31:45.380 --> 31:49.060
The thing that was so fascinating for me
in your bound volume of Freedom's Ring,

31:49.140 --> 31:54.500
and listen, right here at the outset,
let's give your address of how the people

31:54.500 --> 31:55.880
can get copies of Freedom's Ring.

31:55.980 --> 32:01.860
If anybody does not have copies of
Freedom's Ring, Bob, do you call it a

32:01.860 --> 32:02.880
magazine, a newsletter?

32:04.180 --> 32:06.520
It's a paper on religious liberation.

32:06.740 --> 32:07.260
A paper, okay.

32:07.920 --> 32:11.960
If you're not getting Bob's paper entitled
Freedom's Ring, you need to be on his mail

32:11.960 --> 32:12.140
list.

32:12.140 --> 32:14.800
Give us the address right now,
we'll put it up on the screen.

32:15.060 --> 32:20.600
Right now, the paper runs about 18 pages,
and the address is Box 200, Hermosa,

32:23.260 --> 32:25.760
South Dakota, 57744.

32:26.120 --> 32:27.880
Now, do you have a subscription price?

32:28.040 --> 32:28.700
How does this work?

32:28.720 --> 32:33.520
Well, we figure that we need to get about
$3 per issue to function.

32:33.880 --> 32:37.440
And that's what we ask for as a
contribution, as a gift.

32:37.440 --> 32:45.400
And the bound volume of all of Volume 1
and Volume 2, we need a gift of $25.

32:46.000 --> 32:50.380
Okay, so for $25, can they get this
complete bound edition that you gave to

32:50.380 --> 32:50.580
me?

32:50.700 --> 32:51.500
What a deal.

32:51.720 --> 32:58.900
From the very beginning, you have made it
clear that celebration fits right in to

32:58.900 --> 33:03.720
the Catholic scheme of bringing all the,
quote, Protestant churches that have run

33:03.720 --> 33:06.160
away from the Mother Church back into the
fold.

33:06.160 --> 33:08.940
Explain how celebration fits into all of
this, Bob.

33:08.940 --> 33:09.920
That's the next stage, John.

33:10.000 --> 33:14.220
I was walking through my personal library
one evening, and I was thinking how

33:14.220 --> 33:19.440
interesting it would be to lay hands on
top Jesuit documents of their plan for

33:19.440 --> 33:22.680
accomplishing what Ellen White says in
Great Controversy about bringing all the

33:22.680 --> 33:24.720
churches back into their fold.

33:25.540 --> 33:29.580
And I thought, lacking that, I can deal at
least with public material.

33:29.880 --> 33:33.500
And I had a copy of the Vatican II
documents.

33:35.120 --> 33:37.020
Now, that's two volumes, isn't it?

33:37.040 --> 33:41.880
Because I have two volumes concerning
Vatican II.

33:42.200 --> 33:45.900
Now, was Pope John XXIII...

33:45.900 --> 33:46.840
XXIII called it.

33:47.020 --> 33:48.840
Right, back in 1962, wasn't it?

33:48.840 --> 33:52.380
He actually called it on January 25th,
1959.

33:52.760 --> 33:54.000
Okay, now what was Vatican II?

33:55.620 --> 33:59.280
Okay, John, if I could give a little
historical background of celebration,

33:59.400 --> 33:59.840
I'd like to.

33:59.900 --> 34:00.460
Would that be alright?

34:00.620 --> 34:01.020
Absolutely.

34:02.340 --> 34:08.160
First of all, just my encountering the
documents of Vatican II, the first section

34:08.160 --> 34:12.180
of the documents of Vatican II is the
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy.

34:12.920 --> 34:14.000
Explain that word.

34:14.380 --> 34:16.800
Liturgy means the worship service format.

34:17.660 --> 34:19.800
Liturgy, it means the worship service.

34:19.900 --> 34:20.440
Format.

34:20.560 --> 34:23.520
And that's, of course, what has been
agitating our church.

34:23.520 --> 34:24.940
That's what celebration is.

34:24.940 --> 34:25.420
Right.

34:25.580 --> 34:30.060
Now, the Sacred Council, it says here,
has set out to impart ever-increasing

34:30.060 --> 34:34.380
vigor to the Christian life of the
faithful, to adapt more closely to the

34:34.380 --> 34:38.840
needs of our age, those institutions which
are subject to change, to foster whatever

34:38.840 --> 34:43.980
can promote union among all who believe in
Christ, to strengthen whatever can help to

34:43.980 --> 34:47.120
call all mankind into the Church's fold.

34:47.960 --> 34:53.300
Accordingly, it sees particularly cogent
reasons for undertaking the reform and

34:53.300 --> 34:54.940
promotion of the liturgy.

34:55.040 --> 35:01.780
So, this is the foreword or the preface of
Vatican II, that it is out to change the

35:01.780 --> 35:07.420
worship hour of Protestant churches,
and to blend them in to the liturgy or the

35:07.420 --> 35:09.960
worship service of the Roman Catholic
Church.

35:10.020 --> 35:13.760
Because the purpose is to call all mankind
into the Church's fold, and in Roman

35:13.760 --> 35:15.860
Catholic thinking, there's one Church.

35:15.860 --> 35:15.980
Right.

35:16.360 --> 35:20.140
And they're going to use the worship
structure, the worship hour structure,

35:20.420 --> 35:20.980
to do it.

35:21.100 --> 35:21.320
Sure.

35:22.400 --> 35:26.360
It reaches the congregation at the
broadest level.

35:26.500 --> 35:27.940
Everyone's expected to be there.

35:28.000 --> 35:28.620
At the worship hour.

35:28.720 --> 35:33.920
And page 46 calls on the pastors to
introduce it, gradually explaining the

35:33.920 --> 35:35.580
reasons for it as they go along.

35:35.840 --> 35:35.840
We've heard that.

35:35.840 --> 35:36.540
We've heard that.

35:36.760 --> 35:41.260
Now, John, when we look at the term
celebration, and incidentally,

35:41.340 --> 35:44.700
it occurs on virtually every page of the
Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy,

35:44.700 --> 35:47.280
as many as 14 times on a page.

35:47.440 --> 35:49.500
Celebrant, celebration, celebrate.

35:49.900 --> 35:51.220
It's all through Vatican II.

35:52.460 --> 35:56.280
Celebration is the Catholic term for its
services.

35:56.720 --> 36:01.600
Marriages, funerals, the Eucharist,
Mass, they're all celebrations.

36:01.860 --> 36:08.080
In fact, even the Council of Trent was
called a celebration.

36:08.500 --> 36:12.300
And in here we have the bull for the
celebration of the Council of Trent.

36:12.300 --> 36:16.340
And yet, I felt that I didn't know where
it came from.

36:16.460 --> 36:20.760
But suddenly, several years ago,
we just began seeing celebration in

36:20.760 --> 36:21.180
everything.

36:21.320 --> 36:24.640
All of our periodicals, everybody was
talking about it in the church bulletins.

36:25.020 --> 36:28.860
Suddenly the word celebration just sprang
to life in the Seventh-day Adventist

36:28.860 --> 36:29.060
Church.

36:29.280 --> 36:33.060
And I couldn't figure out for the life of
me where we got that term.

36:33.160 --> 36:35.400
We started naming magazines after it and
everything.

36:35.680 --> 36:39.020
Everybody in all the leadership was
talking about celebration this and

36:39.020 --> 36:39.680
celebration that.

36:39.740 --> 36:40.780
Everything was a celebration.

36:40.780 --> 36:48.880
And now to realize that back in 1962,
this was the term that was used throughout

36:48.880 --> 36:56.680
the documentation of Vatican II for the
worship hour.

36:57.180 --> 36:58.640
And that's where it comes from.

36:58.800 --> 37:02.360
But it's been called... you see,
in Roman Catholicism, celebration is a

37:02.360 --> 37:03.280
very ancient term.

37:03.380 --> 37:05.580
It's always called its services
celebrations.

37:06.120 --> 37:08.740
Like the Council of Trent was in the 16th
century.

37:08.740 --> 37:10.500
And we've just adopted this Catholic term.

37:10.520 --> 37:15.420
All the sessions of the Council of Trent
were called celebrations.

37:16.080 --> 37:19.420
In fact, it goes back to the mystery
religions in Babylon, ancient Babylon.

37:19.640 --> 37:21.240
They celebrated the mysteries.

37:21.700 --> 37:25.840
But Bob, if it was just the word,
that would be one thing.

37:25.960 --> 37:29.640
But we've adopted much more than just the
Catholic word celebration.

37:30.200 --> 37:34.000
It's everything that the word celebration
in Catholicism entails.

37:34.000 --> 37:41.160
Yes, and the sequence, the historical
sequence of developments leading us to the

37:41.160 --> 37:44.740
point we are at now is absolutely
fascinating and stunning.

37:45.520 --> 37:47.920
Now, John, a little more history about
this celebration.

37:48.440 --> 37:52.260
According to Vatican II, Sunday is the
chief celebration of Rome.

37:52.560 --> 37:53.620
The chief celebration.

37:54.260 --> 38:00.940
And in the Constitution of the Sacred
Liturgy, there is a flow that I began

38:00.940 --> 38:01.380
noticing.

38:01.380 --> 38:06.380
I began underlining things that were
paralleling developments in our church.

38:07.200 --> 38:11.880
And I saw that musical celebrations were
to be the most effective celebrations.

38:12.320 --> 38:13.820
Music has something to do with this?

38:14.020 --> 38:16.240
And the popular music was to be brought
in.

38:16.320 --> 38:19.120
Now, 25 years ago, that was pretty
revolutionary.

38:19.680 --> 38:24.360
And we know, we have good friends who were
Roman Catholics who are now historic

38:24.360 --> 38:25.460
biblical Adventists.

38:25.460 --> 38:30.520
And they said they noticed immediately
after Vatican II, the guitars were brought

38:30.520 --> 38:30.780
in.

38:31.020 --> 38:32.840
The whole music was changed.

38:32.900 --> 38:36.400
But I want to address some of that a
little more in depth a little bit later,

38:36.600 --> 38:36.680
John.

38:36.700 --> 38:41.320
Because here's something that tells us,
gives us an ominous note as to where

38:41.320 --> 38:43.800
celebration ultimately goes.

38:43.800 --> 38:50.300
And that is, in the Spanish Inquisition,
the most pious and the most holy

38:50.300 --> 38:56.880
celebration of the papacy was the auto de
fe, the burning of heretics at the stake.

38:57.360 --> 39:01.660
And here I have Henry Charles Lee's
History of the Inquisition of Spain.

39:01.780 --> 39:06.340
Now, Henry Charles Lee is the definitive
work on this subject.

39:06.460 --> 39:08.680
He went into the very archives of Spain.

39:08.680 --> 39:15.820
It was called a celebrado in the Spanish
Inquisition, the service of burning people

39:15.820 --> 39:16.280
at the stake.

39:16.400 --> 39:19.580
They would have people, they would have
choirs singing, tediums.

39:19.880 --> 39:22.340
They would have a thousand notables
marching.

39:22.480 --> 39:23.640
The king would be present.

39:24.340 --> 39:27.880
And here's a chapter called the
celebration, right here.

39:28.680 --> 39:29.320
The celebration.

39:29.620 --> 39:30.900
Celebration of the auto de fe.

39:30.900 --> 39:36.240
And if people found that they were losing
their nerve as they watched people burning

39:36.240 --> 39:41.480
at the stake and wanted reconciliation
with the church, they could request that.

39:41.580 --> 39:43.740
And the inquisitors would speak with them.

39:44.100 --> 39:48.500
And if they decided to grant them
reconciliation, canon law said that they

39:48.500 --> 39:50.520
had to spend the rest of their days in
prison.

39:50.720 --> 39:54.640
So you were faced in the Inquisition,
if you were even suspect of a heretic,

39:55.100 --> 39:56.020
of being a heretic.

39:56.020 --> 40:01.680
And Leonard Levy, in his Origins of the
Fifth Amendment, a Pulitzer Prize winning

40:01.680 --> 40:08.320
book in 1969, says that anyone that got in
the toils of the Inquisition, of all of

40:08.320 --> 40:14.000
those individuals, there is not one record
of anyone ever escaping unscathed.

40:14.000 --> 40:16.660
So once you were suspected, that was it.

40:16.800 --> 40:22.340
And it was the stake, if you were
faithful, imprisonment if you recanted.

40:22.340 --> 40:31.140
So you had to be so totally against the
heretics to escape being even caught.

40:31.880 --> 40:37.740
It kind of reminds me of the French
Revolution to where anybody that was even

40:37.740 --> 40:41.840
suspect of being a sympathizer was taken
to the guillotine.

40:42.000 --> 40:42.780
That's right, John.

40:43.160 --> 40:49.840
And Henry Charles Lee also has definitive
work on the Inquisition of the Middle

40:49.840 --> 40:50.220
Ages.

40:50.220 --> 40:57.940
And he tells in this book, this is just a
paperback section of it, the three volume

40:57.940 --> 40:59.700
set is about, you know, yea wide.

41:00.200 --> 41:04.660
But he tells of how the Inquisitors would
come into an area, they would call all the

41:04.660 --> 41:08.160
population out, and everyone was to tell
everything they knew about any heretics.

41:08.940 --> 41:13.020
There was only one area that escaped from
this, and that was because the people

41:13.020 --> 41:15.440
covenanted not to tell on each other.

41:16.020 --> 41:17.900
And the Inquisitors couldn't do anything.

41:18.020 --> 41:19.800
It was still in the early stages of the
Inquisition.

41:19.800 --> 41:21.560
And they had ways of dealing with that
later on.

41:22.240 --> 41:27.780
But betrayal of others was the proof of
conversion, you see.

41:28.580 --> 41:36.760
And what happened was the Inquisition was
designed to instill terror in the

41:36.760 --> 41:37.420
population.

41:38.140 --> 41:42.620
Utter fear so that the people would
subject themselves, tell everything they

41:42.620 --> 41:42.800
knew.

41:42.800 --> 41:49.640
They had records of everything across
Europe, and any heretic, their genealogy

41:49.640 --> 41:52.240
was examined, and they kept records for
generations.

41:52.480 --> 41:54.000
But Bob, that was hundreds of years ago.

41:54.080 --> 41:56.820
That doesn't have anything to do with the
Adventist Church and what we're going

41:56.820 --> 41:58.220
through today, does it?

41:58.620 --> 42:01.920
Well, what does Great Controversy tell us
in the chapter, Liberty of Conscience

42:01.920 --> 42:02.320
Threatened?

42:02.340 --> 42:03.620
I'm being facetious, obviously.

42:03.620 --> 42:04.260
I know, John.

42:04.280 --> 42:05.460
That's exactly what it says.

42:05.460 --> 42:06.400
But it's coming back.

42:06.480 --> 42:07.120
It's coming back.

42:07.120 --> 42:11.280
It's coming back, and the Pope is
absolutely clear that this is where he's

42:11.280 --> 42:12.300
wanting to take us to.

42:12.300 --> 42:18.120
You see, the Inquisition was the effort to
impose uniformity and unity in the Church.

42:18.180 --> 42:22.740
And in the name of unity, they burned
people, imprisoned them, cut their tongues

42:22.740 --> 42:24.120
out, tortured them, whatever.

42:24.660 --> 42:29.460
So, what we see of persecution of historic
Adventists today in the Seventh-day

42:29.460 --> 42:33.820
Adventist Church is minuscule in
comparison to what we are going to see in

42:33.820 --> 42:35.040
the coming months and years.

42:35.260 --> 42:36.500
This is just the beginning.

42:36.500 --> 42:41.260
This didn't start out... the Inquisition
didn't start out doing this horrendous

42:41.260 --> 42:42.820
crimes against mankind.

42:43.280 --> 42:47.060
It started out subtly, just as the
persecution is starting out now in the

42:47.060 --> 42:48.320
Seventh-day Adventist Church subtly.

42:48.600 --> 42:52.540
But I want to tell our historic Adventist
people that we haven't seen anything...

42:52.540 --> 42:56.840
this is child's play in the comparison to
what God's people are going to have to go

42:56.840 --> 43:00.580
through from their very own fellow
Seventh-day Adventists before this thing

43:00.580 --> 43:01.480
is all said and done.

43:01.760 --> 43:04.460
Bob, how have we played into Rome's hands?

43:04.460 --> 43:06.860
How have we done their bidding?

43:07.040 --> 43:12.780
How has our leadership come to the place
where we are following the history of the

43:12.780 --> 43:13.860
Inquisition?

43:14.000 --> 43:19.180
Okay, John, I'd like to look at a sequence
of developments here with you on this very

43:19.180 --> 43:20.480
subject historically.

43:20.740 --> 43:21.880
Just look at the facts.

43:22.100 --> 43:24.920
And that's what my concern is,
to look at the facts.

43:25.520 --> 43:31.280
In the 1950s, we as biblical Adventists
know that there was tremendous ferment in

43:31.280 --> 43:33.580
our church over the evangelical
conferences.

43:33.580 --> 43:36.380
1956-1957, questions on doctrine.

43:36.740 --> 43:40.760
And then in 1958, it's very interesting
that G.C.

43:41.320 --> 43:45.520
Burkhardt, a prominent Dutch Reformed
theologian, put out a book, Recent

43:45.520 --> 43:49.480
Developments in Roman Catholic Thought,
where he examined what was going on in the

43:49.480 --> 43:51.440
thinking of Roman Catholicism.

43:51.540 --> 43:57.240
And he warned the world that if they could
not take a position of, we know,

43:57.400 --> 44:02.100
based on the Word, they would lapse back
into the ex-cathedral decisions of Rome.

44:02.100 --> 44:08.500
The very next year, 1959, Pope John XXIII,
January XXV, announces his intention to

44:08.500 --> 44:10.500
call an ecumenical council.

44:11.540 --> 44:17.400
1962-65, you have the Vatican Council
meeting, which would forever change the

44:17.400 --> 44:18.980
face of the religious world.

44:19.640 --> 44:24.300
And this, of course, calls for revitalized
celebration services to attract the world

44:24.300 --> 44:26.200
back into the fold of Rome.

44:26.200 --> 44:33.080
Now, immediately after that council,
in 1966, the Catholic charismatic movement

44:33.080 --> 44:34.160
begins exploding.

44:34.800 --> 44:37.500
And this all can be documented,
John.

44:38.000 --> 44:44.920
We have this book, The Pentecostal
Movement, by Edward D.

44:44.960 --> 44:49.580
O'Connor, the definitive study of a
dynamic spiritual rebirth from the

44:49.580 --> 44:53.440
standpoint of Catholic theology and its
significance in Catholic life and thought

44:53.440 --> 44:53.440
today.

44:53.440 --> 44:55.360
Catholics looking at Pentecostalism.

44:55.400 --> 44:56.480
I'd like to see that.

44:57.060 --> 45:00.440
Well, John, there's a lot more.

45:00.620 --> 45:05.440
There's a lot of material that can be
produced on this subject.

45:06.140 --> 45:11.200
Catholics looking into Pentecostalism and
us understanding today how Pentecostalism

45:11.200 --> 45:15.300
fits in with the Catholic strategy to
unify all the churches and how they plan

45:15.300 --> 45:20.940
on using the speaking in tongues and the
charismatic movement and how it ties in

45:20.940 --> 45:22.020
with love and unity.

45:22.020 --> 45:24.760
Have we been hearing about love and unity
in the Seventh Adventist Church?

45:25.200 --> 45:26.720
We've been hammered with it for decades.

45:27.080 --> 45:28.740
Oh, it's nauseating, Bob.

45:28.820 --> 45:31.500
It's that lovesick sentimentalism that
Ellen White talks about.

45:31.800 --> 45:37.700
We have just been inundated from every
direction with this banner of love and

45:37.700 --> 45:38.220
unity.

45:38.420 --> 45:41.100
And it comes right out of Vatican II.

45:41.360 --> 45:43.980
I mean, reading this material of yours is
just phenomenal.

45:44.320 --> 45:46.460
This is what's going on in the Seventh
Adventist Church.

45:46.660 --> 45:49.600
And to realize that it came out of Vatican
II in 1962.

45:49.600 --> 45:53.460
And that's what we see, you know,
here 30 years later in the Seventh

45:53.460 --> 45:54.300
Adventist Church.

45:54.560 --> 45:54.720
Exactly.

45:54.900 --> 45:59.600
If we are not walking closely with the
Lord in the fear of the Lord, we get swept

45:59.600 --> 46:00.220
into all of this.

46:00.400 --> 46:00.560
Unbelievable.

46:00.560 --> 46:02.540
At the end of time, there's only two
camps.

46:02.720 --> 46:05.900
Those who are standing on the three
angels' messages and Babylon.

46:06.660 --> 46:11.260
And Sarah Diamond, who is a sociologist in
her book, Spiritual Warfare, The Politics

46:11.260 --> 46:17.020
of the Christian Right, documents for us
how high-level contacts were made then

46:17.020 --> 46:20.720
between the Catholic charismatic movement,
which shortly was a million members

46:20.720 --> 46:27.220
strong, and how they joined in the council
organization at the highest levels with

46:27.220 --> 46:29.720
the Protestant charismatic movement.

46:30.040 --> 46:32.300
They didn't want the members to know about
it.

46:32.380 --> 46:33.060
Oh, everything is a secret.

46:33.060 --> 46:34.320
But they did it secretly.

46:34.440 --> 46:34.860
Yes.

46:34.960 --> 46:36.620
And she talks about that in here.

46:37.080 --> 46:42.720
This is a very fascinating book because
she paints the very picture for us there.

46:42.720 --> 46:44.880
Now, we're showing these on screen.

46:45.460 --> 46:48.380
Now, they can pick these up at the public
bookstore or public library.

46:48.480 --> 46:48.900
Where can people get these books?

46:48.900 --> 46:50.880
In most cases, you can order them,
like, from B.

46:50.960 --> 46:51.780
Dalton Bookseller.

46:51.900 --> 46:56.000
Now, Documents of Vatican II, you can get
from Erdman's for $9.95.

46:56.240 --> 46:57.900
They pay the shipping on it.

46:59.120 --> 47:00.960
You may have to special order them.

47:01.260 --> 47:04.460
So, any diligent researcher, though,
can get their hands on these books that

47:04.460 --> 47:05.100
you're referring to.

47:05.120 --> 47:05.780
Oh, absolutely.

47:05.780 --> 47:11.840
I noticed here that it talks about how
they realized that they must educate the

47:11.840 --> 47:13.240
ministry into celebration.

47:13.320 --> 47:13.580
Oh, yes.

47:13.660 --> 47:16.760
And that's exactly what we see going on
today in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

47:16.900 --> 47:20.560
Every institution of higher learning was
to promote ecumenism.

47:20.560 --> 47:26.380
Now, John, coming in a timeline here,
in 1968, it's very interesting what

47:26.380 --> 47:26.720
happened.

47:26.860 --> 47:34.760
Because we joined a significant part of
the World Council of Churches called the

47:34.760 --> 47:36.680
World Confessional Families.

47:37.340 --> 47:41.180
And this book documents it, Dictionary of
the Ecumenical Movement, which just came

47:41.180 --> 47:41.440
out.

47:41.860 --> 47:43.920
It costs about $70, this book.

47:44.380 --> 47:49.700
But, at any rate, we joined it in 1968,
the World Confessional Families.

47:50.860 --> 47:53.700
Now, is that everything to do with the
World Council of Churches?

47:53.820 --> 47:54.120
Absolutely.

47:54.420 --> 47:55.460
It's very significant.

47:55.640 --> 48:01.880
Because it is so significant that the top
Jesuits, when they go to write a book

48:01.880 --> 48:09.680
based on statements or decisions made by
the World Council of Churches,

48:09.740 --> 48:11.940
they consult heavily with the World
Council of Churches.

48:11.980 --> 48:12.760
And I'll tell you why.

48:13.840 --> 48:15.700
1968, we joined this.

48:15.880 --> 48:17.660
Now it's called Christian World
Communions.

48:17.660 --> 48:23.420
And at the same time, in the same year,
the Vatican Secretariat for Promoting

48:23.420 --> 48:25.420
Christian Unity joined.

48:26.220 --> 48:29.120
But our people are told whenever they ask
B.B.

48:29.220 --> 48:32.280
Beech or any of these men at the General
Conference if we have anything to do with

48:32.280 --> 48:36.960
the World Council of Churches,
they categorically deny that we have

48:36.960 --> 48:39.760
joined the World Council of Churches or
the National Council of Churches,

48:39.840 --> 48:41.760
and that we have nothing to do with that.

48:41.920 --> 48:45.880
We're just an advisory type situation,
but we're not members.

48:45.880 --> 48:51.180
And they just try to tell our people that
this is just these independent ministries

48:51.180 --> 48:54.020
stirring up a tempest in a teapot,
and it's not true.

48:54.400 --> 48:56.700
But now you're saying that we're a member
of what?

48:57.400 --> 49:00.340
On a technicality, John, we are not a
technical member.

49:00.560 --> 49:05.260
But we belong to the World Confessional
Families, which the Roman Catholic Church

49:05.260 --> 49:05.940
belongs to.

49:06.100 --> 49:11.400
And the Roman Catholic Church is swinging
a tremendous influence in the World

49:11.400 --> 49:15.340
Council of Churches, having joint working
groups, etc.

49:15.600 --> 49:23.620
And not only that, but we have been
sitting on the Faith and Order Commission.

49:24.260 --> 49:30.260
Now this is a book on Faith and Order
1985-1989, which is the most important

49:30.260 --> 49:32.540
commission in the World Council of
Churches.

49:33.180 --> 49:35.840
This is a report on their meeting in 1989.

49:36.640 --> 49:41.440
And right in the back here you can read
who our representative is on it.

49:41.440 --> 49:45.680
Dr. Raoul Detteren, Seventh-day Adventist
Church, SDA Theological Seminary.

49:46.260 --> 49:48.140
And he's been sitting on this.

49:48.380 --> 49:50.480
We have had a representative on Faith and
Order.

49:50.780 --> 49:54.600
And this is one of our major professors
teaching our theologians, training our

49:54.600 --> 49:55.000
pastors.

49:55.120 --> 49:58.400
And then we wonder why we hear what we
hear from the Adventist pulpits today.

49:58.520 --> 50:04.260
One reason, John, our ministry worldwide
could not cope with the Fordite issue was

50:04.260 --> 50:07.940
because they were already several steps
down the New Theology from their training.

50:07.940 --> 50:12.780
For decades now, New Theology positions on
the nature of sin and the nature of Christ

50:12.780 --> 50:14.760
have been taught at the seminary.

50:14.840 --> 50:18.020
And that's why the rank-and-file minister
couldn't come to grips with it,

50:18.020 --> 50:20.740
because he was already several steps down
that road.

50:21.760 --> 50:28.020
You say here that the pattern was set,
celebrate, then annihilate.

50:28.100 --> 50:29.060
Now what do you mean by that?

50:29.080 --> 50:31.020
Well, that's just what we were talking
about.

50:31.020 --> 50:35.240
Because the union of the churches,
according to great controversy,

50:35.440 --> 50:37.740
is the last step before persecution.

50:38.300 --> 50:43.680
And persecution, at the end of time,
ultimately winds up in the universal death

50:43.680 --> 50:44.640
decree against the faithful.

50:44.640 --> 50:48.100
Bob, can we give encouragement to our
historic Adventists that the fact that the

50:48.100 --> 50:52.300
celebration movement from Catholicism has
now come in full force into the

50:52.300 --> 50:58.340
Seventh-day Adventist Church, that the
next step is major persecution and the

50:58.340 --> 51:04.180
time of trouble, that this is just the
precursor of what we're going into as far

51:04.180 --> 51:06.280
as the time of trouble, the beginning of
the time of trouble?

51:06.460 --> 51:08.700
John, this is not my position only.

51:09.000 --> 51:15.800
Talking to other prominent, faithful,
eminent leaders of our church who are

51:15.800 --> 51:21.360
Biblical Adventists, they concur with
this, John, that we are now in the early

51:21.360 --> 51:26.720
stages of something that is going to
develop and deepen and become worldwide,

51:27.040 --> 51:27.320
global.

51:28.040 --> 51:33.860
And as we see the New World Order
developing, and all of these things,

51:34.160 --> 51:37.640
maybe a little later on we can look at
some of the constitutional and

51:37.640 --> 51:42.600
international developments, but all of
these things point to the striking

51:42.600 --> 51:47.700
fulfillment of what we have been
preaching, John, for years and years.

51:47.700 --> 51:49.760
What an exciting time to live.

51:50.120 --> 51:53.680
What does celebration have to do with the
three angels' message?

51:54.320 --> 51:59.560
Well, celebration for the Roman Catholic
movement and for the World Council of

51:59.560 --> 52:07.500
Churches is their code term for liturgical
change and liturgical matters,

52:07.820 --> 52:11.320
just like Rome's code term for labor
unions is what?

52:12.340 --> 52:12.940
Solidarity.

52:13.080 --> 52:13.560
Oh, yes.

52:13.700 --> 52:13.880
You see?

52:14.040 --> 52:15.920
That's here in America as well as over in
Poland.

52:15.960 --> 52:16.120
Sure.

52:16.120 --> 52:21.700
So this is their term for the convergence
of the churches.

52:21.940 --> 52:28.640
Now, John, by the time we get to 1974,
there's secret high-level union taking

52:28.640 --> 52:32.600
place now between the Catholic and
Protestant charismatic movements.

52:33.080 --> 52:38.200
In 1977, of course, the world confessional
families are meeting in Rome, and our

52:38.200 --> 52:40.500
representative at those meetings,
B.B.

52:40.600 --> 52:45.440
Beach, gives the gold medal to the Pope on
May 18 of 1977.

52:46.140 --> 52:51.980
In 1981, Father Braun, a Roman Catholic,
gives the keynote address at the Full

52:51.980 --> 52:55.200
Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship World
Convention.

52:55.760 --> 53:00.520
The Vatican charismatic movement monthly
publication in the 1980s, New Covenant,

53:00.820 --> 53:03.300
mirrors the Protestant Pentecostal paper,
Charisma.

53:03.300 --> 53:06.340
So you have now convergence taking place.

53:06.860 --> 53:10.220
Now, convergence is a big thing in all of
this.

53:10.340 --> 53:14.760
This is a World Council of Churches book
entitled, Baptism and Eucharist,

53:14.940 --> 53:19.140
Ecumenical Convergence in Celebration,
and that answers your question.

53:19.940 --> 53:26.100
Celebration is the term that is being used
here for the ecumenical convergence that's

53:26.100 --> 53:26.600
taking place.

53:26.600 --> 53:31.860
Now, this is dealing with two key areas
that Rome is interested in, in unifying

53:31.860 --> 53:34.840
the churches, baptism and Eucharist.

53:34.840 --> 53:38.960
That's so obvious because, you see,
celebration totally negates the three

53:38.960 --> 53:39.700
angels' message.

53:39.860 --> 53:40.600
Yes, it does.

53:41.060 --> 53:42.260
It is the opposite.

53:42.380 --> 53:45.760
See, there are two movements at the end of
time, and these movements cross all

53:45.760 --> 53:46.240
boundaries.

53:46.900 --> 53:50.540
There is God's movement of the three
angels' messages to every nation,

53:50.720 --> 53:50.740
kingdom, and tribe...

53:50.740 --> 53:51.760
Calling people out!

53:51.760 --> 53:56.300
...to pull people out of Babylon,
every aspect of Babylonian celebration.

53:56.300 --> 53:58.440
And celebration gets everybody in unity.

53:58.600 --> 54:02.660
And the other movement is the ecumenical
movement, which is bringing all the

54:02.660 --> 54:06.340
people, knitting them together in Babylon
with the coalition of the papacy,

54:06.920 --> 54:09.480
spiritualism, and apostate Protestantism.

54:09.780 --> 54:10.260
Unbelievable!

54:10.520 --> 54:11.340
So, these two things.

54:11.440 --> 54:14.760
And, you see, we're going to see company
after company leave, and tribe after tribe

54:14.760 --> 54:15.720
come in.

54:16.360 --> 54:19.600
There's going to be great confusion and
people crossing the boundaries.

54:19.600 --> 54:24.820
But the defining point is the three
angels' messages, because that's the

54:24.820 --> 54:26.380
cleaver of truth.

54:27.040 --> 54:28.600
That's the mighty cleaver.

54:29.040 --> 54:29.940
Isn't that exciting?

54:30.140 --> 54:31.320
Now, John, it's interesting.

54:31.460 --> 54:40.760
In this book here, this book came out in
the 1980s, and it describes that there is

54:40.760 --> 54:42.940
a two-pronged movement in celebration.

54:43.460 --> 54:47.120
One is to change the liturgies,
and as the churches come together

54:47.120 --> 54:53.340
theologically and ecumenically,
the liturgy expresses the convergence that

54:53.340 --> 54:59.240
is taking place substantively in the
thinking of the churches, and they

54:59.240 --> 55:02.620
converge together liturgically.

55:02.800 --> 55:06.800
So, the first prong is liturgical
convergence.

55:07.200 --> 55:08.340
The second prong...

55:08.340 --> 55:11.040
And that's adopting the same type of
worship style.

55:11.040 --> 55:11.420
Yes.

55:12.100 --> 55:17.540
The second prong is to bring all the
churches under the control of the church.

55:17.720 --> 55:22.180
All the individuals under the control of
the church, and the church will regulate

55:22.180 --> 55:24.740
all of human life according to the times.

55:25.600 --> 55:28.500
Does that sound like Daniel 7.25?

55:28.740 --> 55:29.140
What do you mean?

55:29.180 --> 55:33.080
It sounds like the Seventh-day Adventist
Church today, trying to control every

55:33.080 --> 55:34.240
portion of our lives.

55:34.280 --> 55:39.060
Well, but I'm talking about a global
picture here of what Rome is wanting to

55:39.060 --> 55:39.160
do.

55:39.160 --> 55:43.540
Now, it's interesting that in the
documents of Vatican II, part of the

55:43.540 --> 55:48.720
strategy is to bring all the churches
together on the matter of the Eucharist.

55:48.820 --> 55:53.520
To bring the Protestant churches closer
and closer, and in their Lord's...

55:53.520 --> 55:55.980
Explain to some exactly what the Eucharist
is.

55:56.000 --> 55:56.320
All right.

55:56.400 --> 55:59.440
The Eucharist is the dedicated host.

55:59.700 --> 56:00.660
When the priest says...

56:00.660 --> 56:01.200
The little wafer.

56:01.280 --> 56:01.800
The wafer.

56:02.020 --> 56:03.320
The hoc est corpus meum.

56:03.400 --> 56:04.300
This is my body.

56:04.460 --> 56:04.620
Yeah.

56:04.740 --> 56:07.720
Then it is something to be worshipped.

56:07.720 --> 56:09.620
They say it's actually the body of Christ.

56:09.920 --> 56:14.020
Now, John, there were thousands of people
that lost their lives for speaking out

56:14.020 --> 56:15.400
against this idolatry.

56:15.500 --> 56:15.660
That one thing.

56:16.080 --> 56:20.440
They would be put to death just for a word
against it if they didn't kneel as it went

56:20.440 --> 56:21.460
by in a procession.

56:21.560 --> 56:23.980
Incidentally, processions are being called
for.

56:24.640 --> 56:29.680
There is so much that is involved in all
of this.

56:29.680 --> 56:38.240
And in 1982, a prominent SDA theologian
representing our church signs a certain

56:38.240 --> 56:39.840
critical document, John.

56:40.320 --> 56:45.500
And that is the Baptism, Eucharist,
and Ministry document in Lima,

56:45.660 --> 56:45.940
Peru.

56:46.740 --> 56:47.380
1982.

56:47.960 --> 56:48.820
We signed that.

56:48.900 --> 56:51.100
Right on the back here, John, it says...

57:00.060 --> 57:03.100
...for the common study and official
response of the churches.

57:03.240 --> 57:05.840
They represented virtually all the major
church traditions.

57:06.340 --> 57:09.820
Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox,
Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Lutheran,

57:09.860 --> 57:13.820
Anglican, Reformed, Methodist,
United Disciples, Baptist, Adventist,

57:13.940 --> 57:14.780
and Pentecostal.

57:15.520 --> 57:17.520
So it's right there on the back of this
document.

57:17.520 --> 57:23.660
Now this document calls for the churches
to unify in the areas of Baptism,

57:24.200 --> 57:29.820
Eucharist, which the Ecumenical Council of
Vatican II called for.

57:29.860 --> 57:33.060
Incidentally, ask for Volume 1 when you
get it from Eerdmans.

57:33.740 --> 57:35.400
Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry.

57:35.540 --> 57:38.500
So the integration of the ministry is
involved, John.

57:38.660 --> 57:40.200
And we've been seeing that for years.

57:40.660 --> 57:45.240
In some areas, our Adventist ministers now
are the leading ecumenical ministers.

57:45.240 --> 57:50.820
They have been holding the worldwide Week
of Prayer for Christian Unity,

57:51.000 --> 57:55.220
which is viewed by the World Council of
Churches as one of the most fundamental

57:55.220 --> 57:58.340
things that has to be done for ecumenical
unity.

57:59.160 --> 58:04.660
And we are now hearing reports from the
East Coast, the West Coast, New Zealand,

58:04.860 --> 58:08.740
Australia, of ministers calling the Lord's
Supper, the Eucharist.

58:08.740 --> 58:13.920
They are calling the people forward to
receive the bread in the front,

58:14.240 --> 58:15.440
Roman Catholic style.

58:15.940 --> 58:27.600
When I started Prophecy Countdown in 1984,
in 1985 the Florida Conference sent a

58:27.600 --> 58:31.940
pastor in to the Bonita Springs Church
that I had pastored.

58:32.280 --> 58:36.600
And I stepped down and started doing
television ministry through Prophecy

58:36.600 --> 58:37.540
Countdown full time.

58:37.540 --> 58:40.820
The pastor that they sent in to take my
place...

58:40.820 --> 58:45.680
I remember how startled I was in our First
Communion when the pastor, the Seventh-day

58:45.680 --> 58:48.940
Adventist minister that the conference had
sent in to take my place...

58:48.940 --> 58:51.620
and by the way to get me out of that
church...

58:51.620 --> 58:56.080
started using the term the Eucharist in
referring to communion.

58:56.260 --> 58:57.680
I couldn't believe it.

58:57.840 --> 58:59.580
He started using Catholic terms.

58:59.860 --> 59:04.060
This is the first hint that I had ever had
of how our Seventh-day Adventist ministers

59:04.060 --> 59:04.900
were starting...

59:04.900 --> 59:07.300
were being trained to use Catholic terms.

59:07.300 --> 59:08.980
It was unbelievable.

59:09.440 --> 59:13.020
Here in your paper, Freedom's Ring,
you not only have that celebration is the

59:13.020 --> 59:16.680
Vatican code word for the new style church
services...

59:16.680 --> 59:19.780
but you go on and show how the reading of
the Psalms...

59:19.780 --> 59:21.520
Now there is nothing wrong with reading of
the Psalms.

59:21.560 --> 59:22.880
I read the Psalms all the time.

59:23.100 --> 59:25.440
But how it plays into the celebration
movement.

59:25.720 --> 59:28.900
You also bring in about the physical
movements of celebration such as the

59:28.900 --> 59:29.200
applause.

59:29.400 --> 59:33.820
They were necessary, viewed as necessary,
physical movement in celebration.

59:33.820 --> 59:38.240
And you have brought in all this stuff and
gone to Catholic sources and found...

59:38.240 --> 59:41.800
how that all of this stuff was part of the
things that were mandated there out of

59:41.800 --> 59:43.680
Vatican II for celebration.

59:43.840 --> 59:45.880
This is exactly what we have in the
celebration movement.

59:45.880 --> 59:47.180
The Garden of Prayer is right here.

59:47.220 --> 59:48.100
The Garden of Prayer.

59:48.260 --> 59:48.920
The applause.

59:49.060 --> 59:49.960
The reading of the Psalms.

59:50.020 --> 59:51.160
The words upon the screen.

59:51.580 --> 59:52.140
I mean...

59:52.140 --> 59:53.640
And then the music.

59:53.740 --> 59:54.700
You go into the music.

59:54.780 --> 59:56.160
How this has all been planned.

59:56.640 --> 59:57.940
This reminds me...

59:57.940 --> 59:59.600
Bob, this reminds me...

59:59.600 --> 01:00:03.400
of how we as Seventh-day Adventists for
years have done research on Sunday

01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:03.740
worship.

01:00:04.080 --> 01:00:04.220
Yeah.

01:00:04.300 --> 01:00:06.860
And how we go back and show people,
look.

01:00:07.140 --> 01:00:10.600
You know, this thing just didn't all of a
sudden happen on the church.

01:00:10.760 --> 01:00:14.180
It's been brought in over hundreds of
years very slowly and subtly...

01:00:14.180 --> 01:00:18.680
how that Satan has brought the Sunday
worship in through the Catholic church

01:00:18.680 --> 01:00:19.700
into the Christian church.

01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:21.660
And that's where we are today.

01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:24.640
But I find exactly the same thing with
celebration.

01:00:24.860 --> 01:00:28.820
It has come to the Christian church and
into the Seventh-day Adventist church much

01:00:28.820 --> 01:00:29.580
faster...

01:00:29.580 --> 01:00:34.000
but in the same way that Satan brought
Sunday worship into the Christian church.

01:00:34.100 --> 01:00:34.940
It's unbelievable.

01:00:35.180 --> 01:00:38.260
You've gone to Catholic sources of
research and found all this stuff.

01:00:38.540 --> 01:00:41.700
I mean, this is mind-boggling to our
Adventist people, Bob.

01:00:42.100 --> 01:00:46.600
John, you know, as you look at what's
happened in the 80s now...

01:00:46.600 --> 01:00:49.780
there is an acceleration that's happened
chronologically.

01:00:50.200 --> 01:00:53.680
By the mid-1980s, there is a steady stream
of literature...

01:00:54.100 --> 01:00:56.700
pouring into the hands of Charismatics
around the world...

01:00:56.700 --> 01:00:57.680
calling for unity.

01:00:57.680 --> 01:01:01.760
And the Jesuit cardinal, Augustine B.,
reports favorably...

01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:06.980
on Pentecostalism's fresh infusion of
energy into the Vatican effort to achieve

01:01:06.980 --> 01:01:07.320
unity.

01:01:09.340 --> 01:01:12.880
John, here we have Confessions in
Dialogue.

01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:17.400
This is a survey of bilateral
conversations among world confessional

01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:17.900
families.

01:01:18.380 --> 01:01:22.760
We belong to this organization in the
World Council of Churches...

01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:24.300
as well as Roman Catholicism.

01:01:24.300 --> 01:01:28.390
Now, in this book, it's very significant
and very interesting that...

01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:34.560
in 1972, meetings were held between the
Pentecostal Church and the Roman Catholic

01:01:34.560 --> 01:01:35.060
Church.

01:01:35.880 --> 01:01:40.900
The dialogue was between the Vatican
Secretariat for Promoting Christian

01:01:40.900 --> 01:01:41.300
Unity...

01:01:42.060 --> 01:01:46.520
and actually had its beginnings in 1969
and 1970.

01:01:46.680 --> 01:01:50.410
Now, the Vatican joined the world
confessional families in 1968...

01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:52.020
the same year that we did.

01:01:52.020 --> 01:01:54.840
In 1969, they're talking with the
Pentecostals.

01:01:55.140 --> 01:02:00.780
Are you saying or hinting that there is
some type of union that has taken place...

01:02:00.780 --> 01:02:02.980
between the Catholic Church and the
Pentecostal Church...

01:02:02.980 --> 01:02:06.920
to use the Pentecostal tongue-speaking
charismatic movement...

01:02:06.920 --> 01:02:12.860
tying it in with Catholicism to bring a
one world church and a unity among all

01:02:12.860 --> 01:02:13.260
churches?

01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:15.560
Let me tell you exactly what they say.

01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:20.040
The concluding sentence of the account of
the 1973 meeting...

01:02:20.040 --> 01:02:23.980
illustrates the amazing change in mutual
attitudes that has occurred within the

01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:24.800
last few decades.

01:02:25.200 --> 01:02:27.300
Quote, the participants in the dialogue...

01:02:27.620 --> 01:02:30.180
now this is between Rome and the
Pentecostals...

01:02:30.780 --> 01:02:34.200
have become increasingly aware of the
growing extent and dimension...

01:02:34.640 --> 01:02:38.180
of the Pentecostal churches and the
charismatic renewal...

01:02:38.180 --> 01:02:41.760
and realized that these movements could
have profound repercussions...

01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:46.460
on the renewal of the churches and
progress towards Christian unity.

01:02:46.460 --> 01:02:51.280
You know, it only makes sense that
Catholicism and Pentecostalism...

01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:54.400
join hands because they are being both
led...

01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:57.240
have been led from the outset by the same
person.

01:02:57.300 --> 01:02:58.000
Same spirit.

01:02:58.120 --> 01:02:59.540
Same spirit is leading both.

01:03:00.520 --> 01:03:03.260
Spiritualism is very deep in the Roman
Catholic Church.

01:03:03.380 --> 01:03:06.260
Spiritualism and Catholicism and those two
unions coming together.

01:03:06.340 --> 01:03:08.220
Isn't that exactly what our prophet said
would happen?

01:03:08.600 --> 01:03:09.120
Exactly.

01:03:09.380 --> 01:03:12.460
And so here we have from their own lips...

01:03:12.460 --> 01:03:15.540
in the early 70s, late 60s...

01:03:16.540 --> 01:03:20.600
their plans of working together for the
unification of the churches.

01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:25.520
So the Pentecostal charismatic renewal is
the vehicle...

01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:30.460
which Rome is using to bring all the
churches back into her fold.

01:03:30.860 --> 01:03:33.840
That's why we have the Pentecostal
dimensions...

01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:36.220
to the celebration movement in our church.

01:03:36.560 --> 01:03:40.700
And how are they tying the Eucharist into
all this with Pentecostalism?

01:03:40.700 --> 01:03:41.360
That's right.

01:03:41.480 --> 01:03:44.700
The Eucharist is seen as the basis for
Christian unity.

01:03:45.460 --> 01:03:50.180
So that has to do with the Baptism,
Eucharist, and Ministry document.

01:03:50.260 --> 01:03:52.870
Now remember that the documents of Vatican
II...

01:03:53.900 --> 01:03:56.040
called for unity in the area of the
Eucharist.

01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:59.120
Now the World Council of Churches takes
this up...

01:03:59.120 --> 01:04:02.200
and they put out this document,
the most significant document...

01:04:02.200 --> 01:04:04.760
in the 55-year history of the Faith and
Order Commission.

01:04:05.180 --> 01:04:09.780
And we ourselves, in our response to it,
call it the most significant document...

01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:12.640
calling for unity in the area of the
Eucharist.

01:04:12.720 --> 01:04:15.780
Now right away the Jesuits got on this...

01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:20.880
and Carl Rayner, who is probably the top
Jesuit of this century...

01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:25.920
joined up with Heinrich Freis,
a Roman Catholic ecumenical theologian...

01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:31.540
and put out this book in 1983,
one year after this comes out.

01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:36.440
One year after that they come out with
their strategy for the unification of the

01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:36.740
churches.

01:04:36.740 --> 01:04:41.080
Explain what the role of the Jesuits is in
the Seventh-day Adventist Church,

01:04:41.360 --> 01:04:41.500
Bob...

01:04:41.500 --> 01:04:42.500
to those who may not know.

01:04:42.860 --> 01:04:47.000
The role of the Jesuits is to undo all
that Protestantism has done.

01:04:48.140 --> 01:04:50.340
Ignatius Loyola came on the scene about
the time...

01:04:50.340 --> 01:04:50.860
What is that?

01:04:51.000 --> 01:04:52.100
Explain exactly what...

01:04:53.180 --> 01:04:54.060
Ignatius Loyola.

01:04:54.340 --> 01:04:55.400
Ignatius Loyola.

01:04:55.520 --> 01:04:55.880
That's right.

01:04:56.200 --> 01:04:59.100
He is the head of the Jesuits,
the founder of the Jesuits...

01:04:59.100 --> 01:05:02.840
in the very century that Luther was
promoting the Reformation.

01:05:03.380 --> 01:05:07.380
The Counter-Reformation was spearheaded by
the Jesuit order.

01:05:08.260 --> 01:05:09.900
Now, that will tie in...

01:05:09.900 --> 01:05:12.340
and I think we want to look at that just a
little bit later, John...

01:05:12.340 --> 01:05:16.820
that will tie in with the mysticism that
is being brought into our churches now...

01:05:16.820 --> 01:05:20.460
and the actual introduction of the
spiritual exercises of the Jesuits.

01:05:20.520 --> 01:05:23.720
But I'd like to touch that a little later
on in more depth.

01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:27.240
So, you see, not only are we dealing with
celebration...

01:05:27.240 --> 01:05:29.180
we're dealing with neuro-linguistic
programming.

01:05:29.860 --> 01:05:31.660
So, this is all going to tie in.

01:05:31.660 --> 01:05:34.260
And this is exciting to see the research
that you've done, Bob...

01:05:34.260 --> 01:05:36.320
It all ties in with the New Age,
too.

01:05:36.520 --> 01:05:40.620
But right now, let's keep on our track of
looking at...

01:05:40.620 --> 01:05:43.380
the chronology, John, of this is so
significant.

01:05:43.560 --> 01:05:46.800
Now, I'd like to just hit a point here...

01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:49.700
out of this book which is most
significant.

01:05:50.840 --> 01:05:55.440
In fact, I came across this book because I
was walking through a bookstore...

01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:57.460
and noticed this book promoting unity...

01:05:57.460 --> 01:05:59.100
themes in Lutheran-Catholic dialogue.

01:05:59.100 --> 01:06:04.100
I just opened the book up and I saw on
page 58...

01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:09.220
here a discussion of Rayner and Fry's book
here, Unity of the Churches.

01:06:09.860 --> 01:06:11.100
And here is their strategy.

01:06:11.340 --> 01:06:14.380
Just the gross strategy, the overview.

01:06:14.620 --> 01:06:16.760
And you just happened to find this as you
were walking through a bookstore?

01:06:16.940 --> 01:06:17.380
Oh, yes.

01:06:17.500 --> 01:06:19.320
I case the bookstores carefully.

01:06:19.340 --> 01:06:20.520
Just stumble upon this stuff.

01:06:22.220 --> 01:06:27.180
In contrast to this, the author writes,
George Anderson and James Crumley...

01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:31.760
Rayner, that's the Jesuit, and Fry's
attention...

01:06:31.760 --> 01:06:34.400
focuses on the hierarchical, juridical,
and institutional.

01:06:34.820 --> 01:06:39.240
So they are interested in bringing about
the unification of the churches...

01:06:39.240 --> 01:06:43.380
utilizing the hierarchical patterns in the
churches...

01:06:43.380 --> 01:06:46.040
and the institutional dimension of it.

01:06:46.480 --> 01:06:47.780
And the juridical.

01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:51.560
Unification is seen as proceeding from top
to bottom.

01:06:51.640 --> 01:06:53.180
So you get the top ones first...

01:06:53.700 --> 01:06:56.900
and it filters down to the lower echelons
of the church.

01:06:56.900 --> 01:06:59.080
From higher levels to lower ones.

01:06:59.580 --> 01:07:01.900
Perhaps the most vivid indication of
this...

01:07:02.460 --> 01:07:05.940
is when they argue that Protestants on the
whole...

01:07:05.940 --> 01:07:09.060
are just as passive in their church
membership as Catholics...

01:07:09.060 --> 01:07:12.800
and therefore can be expected to follow
their leaders into union with Rome.

01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:16.700
Now, after reading that statement,
I knew I had to get Rayner's book.

01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:17.640
So I ordered it.

01:07:18.060 --> 01:07:21.440
And here is what Rayner says about this
very subject.

01:07:21.620 --> 01:07:24.000
What he is discussing is his concern
about...

01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:29.000
how will the leaders of the churches have
sufficient authority...

01:07:29.880 --> 01:07:32.660
to bring their members back into union
with Rome.

01:07:32.720 --> 01:07:35.000
He spends several pages on this because he
is concerned...

01:07:35.520 --> 01:07:40.480
that there might be the possibility that
enough vital Protestantism...

01:07:40.480 --> 01:07:43.020
may remain, be residual in these
churches...

01:07:43.020 --> 01:07:46.080
that will rise up and oppose the reunion
with Rome.

01:07:46.140 --> 01:07:47.460
You better believe there is.

01:07:47.660 --> 01:07:51.100
But he thinks he's got a solution here.

01:07:51.540 --> 01:07:52.480
And here is what he says.

01:07:52.480 --> 01:07:57.840
However, even if one recognizes a
significant difference in parish life...

01:07:57.840 --> 01:07:59.480
between Catholic and Protestant
congregations...

01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:02.480
with respect to ecclesiastical
leadership...

01:08:03.160 --> 01:08:06.530
the average congregation in the Protestant
churches, in fact...

01:08:07.140 --> 01:08:10.540
usually practices the kind of obedience to
their church leaders...

01:08:10.540 --> 01:08:12.680
that is customary in the Roman Catholic
Church.

01:08:12.820 --> 01:08:15.720
I'd like to digress for just a second
here, John...

01:08:15.720 --> 01:08:18.460
and talk about the way the Jesuit strategy
functions.

01:08:18.940 --> 01:08:20.380
They like to infiltrate.

01:08:20.380 --> 01:08:23.490
They like to change the thinking,
the philosophy...

01:08:24.540 --> 01:08:26.440
the attitudes, the ideology.

01:08:26.740 --> 01:08:28.720
They like to prepare their...

01:08:28.720 --> 01:08:30.960
and take plenty of time making their
preparation.

01:08:31.820 --> 01:08:33.520
And then when the time comes to strike...

01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:34.940
they strike with lightning speed...

01:08:34.940 --> 01:08:38.220
when they feel that they have gained what
they're wanting...

01:08:38.220 --> 01:08:41.260
through the honeycombing of the structure
that they're working with.

01:08:41.520 --> 01:08:43.040
This happened in Eastern Europe.

01:08:43.460 --> 01:08:45.380
In fact, by the early 1980s...

01:08:46.140 --> 01:08:48.400
Malachi Martin says that the
preponderance...

01:08:48.400 --> 01:08:52.400
of the Eastern Orthodox bishops and
Russian Orthodox bishops...

01:08:53.300 --> 01:08:55.520
were prepared to accept the primacy of the
Pope.

01:08:55.980 --> 01:08:59.120
And when they knew their hour of
infiltration had reached far enough...

01:08:59.120 --> 01:08:59.620
then they struck.

01:08:59.680 --> 01:09:00.420
Bang, bang, bang, bang.

01:09:00.440 --> 01:09:02.560
And all those nations fall at their feet.

01:09:03.500 --> 01:09:07.300
But now listen here to the rest of this
paragraph.

01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:08.500
It is so significant.

01:09:10.160 --> 01:09:12.440
So, what would they be interested in
doing, John?

01:09:12.540 --> 01:09:14.400
They want to get the congregation...

01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:18.380
so that they have the same attitude toward
the leadership...

01:09:18.380 --> 01:09:20.320
that the Roman Catholic congregation has
to theirs.

01:09:21.300 --> 01:09:23.960
Therefore, one should not overestimate the
danger...

01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:26.580
of a rebellion at the grassroots...

01:09:26.580 --> 01:09:29.960
against their ecclesiastical leaders'
decisions regarding unification.

01:09:30.500 --> 01:09:33.520
On the basis of their theological
expertise...

01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:35.220
and their religious conscience...

01:09:35.220 --> 01:09:37.740
the representatives of this ecclesiastical
leadership...

01:09:37.740 --> 01:09:40.340
can decide in favor of church unity...

01:09:40.340 --> 01:09:44.120
and can also work with sufficient zeal
among the church members...

01:09:44.120 --> 01:09:46.460
to gain their understanding for this
decision.

01:09:46.460 --> 01:09:48.660
So, if a grassroots rebellion starts...

01:09:49.260 --> 01:09:52.420
all that has to happen is for the
ecclesiastical leadership...

01:09:52.420 --> 01:09:53.940
to be a little more zealous...

01:09:53.940 --> 01:09:57.700
and use their expertise that the average
person doesn't have...

01:09:57.700 --> 01:10:01.960
to knit them into the fold as they go step
by step.

01:10:02.040 --> 01:10:05.280
And I will say this, it is a step-stage
process.

01:10:05.360 --> 01:10:06.720
Yes, we have seen that.

01:10:06.720 --> 01:10:07.400
Step-stage process.

01:10:07.900 --> 01:10:09.160
We have absolutely seen that.

01:10:09.180 --> 01:10:11.420
Now, a number of other significant
things...

01:10:11.420 --> 01:10:13.640
that Rayner brings out in this book,
John...

01:10:13.640 --> 01:10:16.440
is that in the world church-to-be...

01:10:16.440 --> 01:10:19.600
each church will keep its own structure.

01:10:20.240 --> 01:10:22.520
It's far more subtle than most people
realize.

01:10:22.620 --> 01:10:24.440
Each church will keep its own structure...

01:10:25.020 --> 01:10:27.680
and will have its own set of fundamental
beliefs...

01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:31.740
but they will work together in an
atmosphere of reconciled diversity.

01:10:32.240 --> 01:10:35.440
And they will ultimately be led to
recognize...

01:10:36.120 --> 01:10:38.440
the patrine service of the papacy...

01:10:39.000 --> 01:10:43.820
as being the guarantor of love and unity
and orthodoxy.

01:10:43.820 --> 01:10:45.860
The ministries will be integrated...

01:10:45.860 --> 01:10:48.000
by working together on the same kind of
programs.

01:10:48.260 --> 01:10:50.540
And we're seeing that type of thing taking
place...

01:10:50.540 --> 01:10:51.800
on the local level in our church.

01:10:52.260 --> 01:10:54.440
Well, this is incredible stuff that you're
showing us.

01:10:54.460 --> 01:10:56.780
And it's pretty heavy, you know,
deep stuff.

01:10:57.020 --> 01:10:59.500
And our people are really going to have
to...

01:10:59.500 --> 01:11:02.460
probably watch these videos more than
once.

01:11:02.500 --> 01:11:03.660
They're going to have to watch them over
and over again.

01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:05.160
I get letters all the time from people
saying...

01:11:05.160 --> 01:11:09.640
I've watched your NLP one tape ten times.

01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:13.540
And if they have had to do that...

01:11:13.540 --> 01:11:16.940
in order to absorb all the material that
we have...

01:11:16.940 --> 01:11:19.840
I can just imagine how they're going to
have to...

01:11:19.840 --> 01:11:22.840
get these videos and watch them over and
over and over again...

01:11:22.840 --> 01:11:26.500
to really assimilate everything that we're
dealing with here.

01:11:27.000 --> 01:11:29.120
Here is something that we just got in the
mail.

01:11:29.260 --> 01:11:30.360
It's really something.

01:11:30.500 --> 01:11:31.720
This day of taping.

01:11:32.140 --> 01:11:34.020
This just came in the mail just this
morning.

01:11:34.120 --> 01:11:34.980
I'll be very honest with you.

01:11:35.300 --> 01:11:37.840
I have not had much time to spend with it.

01:11:37.880 --> 01:11:39.940
I just summed through it quickly before
taping.

01:11:40.220 --> 01:11:42.120
I'm going to show it to you for the first
time.

01:11:42.120 --> 01:11:44.540
This is from Andrews University.

01:11:44.980 --> 01:11:46.040
It's their yearbook.

01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:48.500
Their joker that shows the pictures of all
their students.

01:11:48.860 --> 01:11:50.400
And I just want you...

01:11:50.400 --> 01:11:51.640
We're going to show it on screen to the
viewers.

01:11:51.720 --> 01:11:52.740
And I just want you...

01:11:52.740 --> 01:11:55.280
with your knowledge and expertise in this
field...

01:11:55.280 --> 01:12:00.320
to start going through this new picture
book from...

01:12:01.860 --> 01:12:02.860
Andrews University.

01:12:02.900 --> 01:12:04.060
Our Theological Seminary.

01:12:04.620 --> 01:12:07.300
Here in the United States for our Seventh
Adventist ministers...

01:12:07.300 --> 01:12:09.020
and our Seventh Adventist College and
University.

01:12:09.020 --> 01:12:13.020
And just give your definitions of
thought...

01:12:13.560 --> 01:12:15.840
in turning the pages...

01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:18.180
after we have been hearing and studying
about...

01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:19.900
what we've been talking about so far.

01:12:20.200 --> 01:12:23.240
How this has been Catholicism's plan...

01:12:23.240 --> 01:12:24.980
to get all of these churches...

01:12:24.980 --> 01:12:26.360
especially the Seventh Adventist Church...

01:12:26.360 --> 01:12:31.000
back into the Catholic vice.

01:12:31.300 --> 01:12:33.080
And I want you to see what you think...

01:12:33.080 --> 01:12:35.520
of this picture book.

01:12:35.620 --> 01:12:36.300
This joker.

01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:37.900
This yearbook.

01:12:37.900 --> 01:12:39.900
I guess it's called The Cast here...

01:12:39.900 --> 01:12:41.700
at Andrews University.

01:12:42.100 --> 01:12:43.280
Tell us what you think of it.

01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:46.380
John, this is one of the most striking
things that I've seen.

01:12:46.520 --> 01:12:48.460
I heard about this before I came here.

01:12:48.460 --> 01:12:49.340
I have heard about it too.

01:12:49.380 --> 01:12:50.120
This is the first time I've seen it.

01:12:50.200 --> 01:12:51.980
Today is the first time I've seen it.

01:12:53.300 --> 01:12:55.480
And the whole...

01:12:57.060 --> 01:13:00.380
artistry of the book is...

01:13:01.980 --> 01:13:02.380
blatantly...

01:13:02.760 --> 01:13:04.560
what is a better word than blatant?

01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:08.580
It is incredibly Roman Catholic.

01:13:09.260 --> 01:13:12.780
First of all, here right on the title
page...

01:13:13.080 --> 01:13:15.200
we have the two fingers of the Pope.

01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:19.020
The papal sign that Ellen White utterly
condemned.

01:13:19.800 --> 01:13:22.620
And then we have the picture of...

01:13:22.620 --> 01:13:23.820
apparently the Virgin Mary.

01:13:24.140 --> 01:13:26.840
It's in the same posture as the Virgin
Mary...

01:13:26.840 --> 01:13:29.240
as characteristically pictured with a
halo.

01:13:30.380 --> 01:13:31.900
And then you go through...

01:13:32.700 --> 01:13:34.900
a few pages of the...

01:13:34.900 --> 01:13:35.820
pictures.

01:13:36.580 --> 01:13:39.260
And then you have another figure...

01:13:39.260 --> 01:13:41.720
medieval figure with a halo...

01:13:41.720 --> 01:13:43.040
of sorts on the head.

01:13:43.980 --> 01:13:46.080
And you pass through some more pictures.

01:13:47.920 --> 01:13:51.900
And you have a monk with a shaven crown...

01:13:52.600 --> 01:13:55.220
pondering with a halo around his head.

01:13:55.360 --> 01:13:56.900
Now Bob, what would possess...

01:13:57.680 --> 01:13:59.380
Andrews University...

01:13:59.380 --> 01:14:00.940
to print this abomination?

01:14:00.940 --> 01:14:03.100
You know what I think it is, John?

01:14:03.660 --> 01:14:05.620
I think it's the same thing that
possessed...

01:14:05.620 --> 01:14:07.060
Malachi Martin to write his book.

01:14:07.460 --> 01:14:09.060
They are so confident now...

01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:11.500
that they are being bold.

01:14:11.640 --> 01:14:11.980
Plain.

01:14:12.600 --> 01:14:13.060
Bold.

01:14:13.300 --> 01:14:15.360
The Roman Catholic plan...

01:14:15.360 --> 01:14:17.160
for the takeover of this planet...

01:14:17.160 --> 01:14:21.940
is not a secret stealthy thing anymore.

01:14:22.300 --> 01:14:22.840
It's open.

01:14:23.160 --> 01:14:24.080
It's right there in the open.

01:14:24.160 --> 01:14:25.680
Just like Mein Kampf with Hitler.

01:14:26.520 --> 01:14:27.500
The next picture...

01:14:27.500 --> 01:14:29.420
this is to me probably...

01:14:29.420 --> 01:14:31.660
one of the most startling ones in the
book.

01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:33.820
Most offensive.

01:14:33.960 --> 01:14:34.620
And offensive.

01:14:35.700 --> 01:14:39.220
Look at the scantily clad aspect of
Christ...

01:14:39.220 --> 01:14:42.320
and there is the pouring of water...

01:14:42.320 --> 01:14:43.300
instead of the baptism.

01:14:44.820 --> 01:14:46.660
Totally a Catholic...

01:14:47.700 --> 01:14:50.400
method of paganism...

01:14:50.400 --> 01:14:51.700
that is brought into the Christian Church.

01:14:51.760 --> 01:14:53.920
Incidentally, that fits right in with the
theme...

01:14:53.920 --> 01:14:56.500
of coming together in the area of
baptism...

01:14:56.500 --> 01:14:58.180
with the baptism Eucharist and ministry.

01:14:58.180 --> 01:14:59.280
Oh, what is that one?

01:14:59.800 --> 01:15:00.660
This one...

01:15:00.660 --> 01:15:02.220
here you have the papal sign again.

01:15:02.940 --> 01:15:05.560
You comment on that one, John,
yourself.

01:15:06.040 --> 01:15:08.340
Rejoice with me, I have found my sheep.

01:15:09.460 --> 01:15:10.520
Look at the two fingers.

01:15:10.700 --> 01:15:12.280
Now, why...

01:15:12.280 --> 01:15:14.200
I mean...

01:15:14.200 --> 01:15:15.460
Do you think...

01:15:15.460 --> 01:15:17.180
Bob, do you think that the editors...

01:15:18.040 --> 01:15:20.500
of this yearbook...

01:15:20.500 --> 01:15:21.200
who are students...

01:15:21.740 --> 01:15:22.820
But you have staff working on it,
too.

01:15:22.820 --> 01:15:23.700
Oh, yeah, I understand.

01:15:23.860 --> 01:15:24.760
You have Andrew's staff.

01:15:24.820 --> 01:15:25.560
They cannot get...

01:15:25.560 --> 01:15:27.040
They can say, oh, well, the students did
this.

01:15:27.080 --> 01:15:27.920
We didn't have anything to do with it.

01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:28.900
That is baloney.

01:15:29.680 --> 01:15:31.640
Do you think there's any way, though...

01:15:31.640 --> 01:15:33.860
that they could have done this innocently?

01:15:34.740 --> 01:15:35.120
Oh, no.

01:15:36.360 --> 01:15:37.740
I mean, it's a planned thing.

01:15:38.020 --> 01:15:39.840
That's all the artwork.

01:15:40.480 --> 01:15:42.540
All the artwork is of this character...

01:15:42.540 --> 01:15:43.020
in this book.

01:15:43.460 --> 01:15:46.000
And coming along here, we have...

01:15:46.000 --> 01:15:49.480
a Catholic rendition of the Lord's Supper.

01:15:49.980 --> 01:15:51.300
You have the halos.

01:15:52.080 --> 01:15:52.640
And...

01:15:53.560 --> 01:15:56.400
coming on further, here's a very striking
one.

01:15:56.400 --> 01:16:00.160
And at that time, thy people shall be
delivered...

01:16:00.160 --> 01:16:02.480
every one that shall be found written in
the book.

01:16:02.600 --> 01:16:03.520
Now, what is that saying?

01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:06.540
That's saying that those Catholic people
there...

01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:08.600
the monks, the priests...

01:16:09.080 --> 01:16:10.640
are part of God's people...

01:16:10.960 --> 01:16:12.300
during the time of trouble.

01:16:12.400 --> 01:16:14.360
And these are the 144,000.

01:16:14.660 --> 01:16:15.480
The nuns.

01:16:16.020 --> 01:16:17.940
These are the ones that will be delivered.

01:16:18.400 --> 01:16:19.880
This is unbelievable.

01:16:20.400 --> 01:16:23.400
I mean, did you ever dream that our
church...

01:16:24.440 --> 01:16:25.800
that our institutions...

01:16:25.800 --> 01:16:28.740
that people calling themselves Seventh-day
Adventists...

01:16:28.740 --> 01:16:31.920
would not only be looking at...

01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:33.940
but be promoting and printing...

01:16:33.940 --> 01:16:35.960
and endorsing this type of thing...

01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:38.280
in the periodicals of our institutions?

01:16:38.560 --> 01:16:41.280
And the significance of Andrews is
enormous...

01:16:41.280 --> 01:16:43.680
because there you have the pastors in
training...

01:16:43.680 --> 01:16:45.980
the administrators, the teachers...

01:16:45.980 --> 01:16:47.980
from the entire world field.

01:16:49.120 --> 01:16:54.100
Here's one of a figure with the nun's neck
piece...

01:16:54.100 --> 01:16:55.460
that comes way up to the chin.

01:16:57.280 --> 01:17:00.000
And on the back is one of the most
significant of all.

01:17:01.020 --> 01:17:02.700
Behold the man, it says.

01:17:03.380 --> 01:17:05.780
And there is a Catholic picture of
Christ...

01:17:05.780 --> 01:17:08.580
with the two-finger sign of the Pope...

01:17:08.580 --> 01:17:09.880
with one hand.

01:17:09.980 --> 01:17:12.460
And in the other hand there is a crystal
ball...

01:17:12.460 --> 01:17:15.480
which represents the union of
spiritualism...

01:17:15.480 --> 01:17:16.440
and the papacy.

01:17:19.760 --> 01:17:22.320
That printing from Andrews University...

01:17:22.320 --> 01:17:24.320
is absolutely so significant...

01:17:25.080 --> 01:17:27.760
that it just shows that everything we've
been talking about...

01:17:27.760 --> 01:17:29.320
thus far on this video...

01:17:29.980 --> 01:17:32.320
is being promoted...

01:17:33.220 --> 01:17:36.800
by our Seventh-day Adventist leadership...

01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:38.640
by our institutions...

01:17:38.640 --> 01:17:40.560
and even by our theological seminary...

01:17:41.120 --> 01:17:43.640
that is training our ministers.

01:17:44.080 --> 01:17:47.580
Our people need to wonder no more...

01:17:48.220 --> 01:17:50.720
why they are hearing what they are
hearing...

01:17:50.720 --> 01:17:52.620
from our Seventh-day Adventist pulpits.

01:17:52.820 --> 01:17:55.120
Our people need to wonder no more...

01:17:55.120 --> 01:17:58.700
why they are hearing preached on
Sabbath...

01:17:58.700 --> 01:18:00.460
things they have never heard preached
before...

01:18:00.460 --> 01:18:02.160
why they are reading in our periodicals...

01:18:02.160 --> 01:18:04.740
things they have never seen in print from
the Seventh-day Adventist church before.

01:18:05.160 --> 01:18:08.720
They can understand now why there is such
a diabolical persecution...

01:18:09.740 --> 01:18:12.540
being organized against the independent
ministries...

01:18:12.540 --> 01:18:15.740
who are daring to stand up against this
apostasy...

01:18:15.740 --> 01:18:17.120
that is taking place in our church.

01:18:17.120 --> 01:18:19.120
I mean, our people surely...

01:18:20.160 --> 01:18:21.680
by this time...

01:18:21.680 --> 01:18:23.060
anybody who is sincere...

01:18:23.060 --> 01:18:25.340
Historic Adventist can see...

01:18:25.340 --> 01:18:27.120
the mindset of our leadership...

01:18:27.120 --> 01:18:29.140
and where this denomination is headed...

01:18:29.140 --> 01:18:30.800
and who is in control of it.

01:18:31.140 --> 01:18:31.620
Absolutely.

01:18:32.300 --> 01:18:35.120
John, it is absolutely stunning...

01:18:35.840 --> 01:18:36.780
and astounding.

01:18:39.940 --> 01:18:41.240
It's as if...

01:18:41.240 --> 01:18:43.620
in some of the statements I have run
across...

01:18:43.620 --> 01:18:45.880
and we want to look at some of them in a
few minutes...

01:18:45.880 --> 01:18:48.880
it's as if we are following the script
precisely...

01:18:50.120 --> 01:18:51.120
that is laid out.

01:18:51.140 --> 01:18:51.940
Following an agenda.

01:18:54.080 --> 01:18:54.880
You know...

01:18:55.360 --> 01:18:56.700
like you say, a script.

01:18:56.900 --> 01:18:58.280
It's like we are following a script.

01:18:58.440 --> 01:19:00.860
I can't think of a better definition...

01:19:00.860 --> 01:19:01.860
for what it is.

01:19:02.160 --> 01:19:03.880
John, in this...

01:19:03.880 --> 01:19:06.880
Carl Rayner's book of the unity of the
churches...

01:19:08.360 --> 01:19:09.160
we have...

01:19:09.160 --> 01:19:11.960
some very, very significant things
which...

01:19:11.960 --> 01:19:12.740
What page are you on there?

01:19:12.740 --> 01:19:15.720
Well, it's the next to the last issue,
John.

01:19:16.220 --> 01:19:19.460
In yours it may be the last issue.

01:19:19.500 --> 01:19:22.820
It's like the Jesuits have planned all
this...

01:19:22.820 --> 01:19:25.920
and we are following their pre-planned
script.

01:19:26.340 --> 01:19:29.700
Well, I think that when we understand...

01:19:29.700 --> 01:19:31.600
what the Jesuits are saying...

01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:33.480
and we compare it...

01:19:33.480 --> 01:19:37.140
it leads us to some very sober
reflections.

01:19:38.880 --> 01:19:43.160
John, here on page 8, for example...

01:19:43.160 --> 01:19:46.120
there are a number of theses in this
book...

01:19:46.120 --> 01:19:47.060
unity of the churches.

01:19:47.820 --> 01:19:48.800
What month is this?

01:19:48.960 --> 01:19:51.180
This would be the October month.

01:19:51.300 --> 01:19:52.440
Ok, October 91?

01:19:53.500 --> 01:19:54.410
Right, 1991.

01:19:57.860 --> 01:20:01.960
The first thesis deals with the use of
creeds.

01:20:02.460 --> 01:20:04.780
And I'd like to just comment on that for a
minute, John.

01:20:04.780 --> 01:20:09.800
Because when we responded to this...

01:20:10.900 --> 01:20:13.040
Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry
document...

01:20:13.040 --> 01:20:15.840
you see all the churches are to respond to
this.

01:20:16.780 --> 01:20:17.740
186 churches...

01:20:17.740 --> 01:20:19.640
And the Seventh-day Adventist Church
signed with that, right?

01:20:19.760 --> 01:20:22.700
We not only signed calling for the unity
of the churches...

01:20:22.700 --> 01:20:24.940
but we sent in our official response.

01:20:25.040 --> 01:20:25.940
And that's in this book...

01:20:26.560 --> 01:20:28.000
Churches Respond to BEM...

01:20:28.560 --> 01:20:30.420
that's Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry...

01:20:30.420 --> 01:20:32.180
Volume 2, the official response.

01:20:32.180 --> 01:20:34.520
And the Seventh-day Adventist Church is
listed in that official document?

01:20:34.520 --> 01:20:38.200
Who was the Seventh-day Adventist
representative that signed this?

01:20:38.720 --> 01:20:41.780
The one on the Faith and Order Commission,
I understand...

01:20:41.780 --> 01:20:42.600
Dr. Detterman.

01:20:42.640 --> 01:20:43.160
Dr. Detterman.

01:20:43.280 --> 01:20:44.980
And isn't it amazing?

01:20:45.100 --> 01:20:47.540
He teaches at the Theological Seminary in
Andrews, right?

01:20:47.600 --> 01:20:47.920
Oh, yes.

01:20:47.980 --> 01:20:49.120
As for decades.

01:20:49.560 --> 01:20:50.080
Absolutely.

01:20:50.980 --> 01:20:55.740
John, I first came across the fact that we
had responded...

01:20:55.740 --> 01:20:59.780
from this book, Baptism, Eucharist,
and Ministry, 1982-1990...

01:20:59.780 --> 01:21:02.340
report on the process and responses.

01:21:02.340 --> 01:21:05.200
You see, it's a process of convergence.

01:21:06.420 --> 01:21:09.700
And all the churches are responding...

01:21:09.700 --> 01:21:13.800
and discussing what they agree with,
what they disagree with...

01:21:13.800 --> 01:21:15.940
how they react to this statement.

01:21:16.240 --> 01:21:19.880
But yet, if you ask any of our church
officials if any of this stuff is going

01:21:19.880 --> 01:21:20.480
on...

01:21:20.480 --> 01:21:22.260
they will lie to our people.

01:21:22.340 --> 01:21:27.020
They lie to our people and say,
No, oh no, we're having nothing to do with

01:21:27.020 --> 01:21:27.220
this.

01:21:27.240 --> 01:21:28.080
This is not going on.

01:21:28.080 --> 01:21:31.310
And here, these publications that you and
your research...

01:21:31.660 --> 01:21:34.840
have just gone to the public bookstores
and libraries and found...

01:21:34.840 --> 01:21:38.500
it lists us and we find out and our people
are waking up to the fact...

01:21:38.500 --> 01:21:41.900
that our denominational leadership has
been involved in this for years.

01:21:42.460 --> 01:21:42.960
Right.

01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:45.160
Oh, for decades.

01:21:45.360 --> 01:21:47.800
And our people have been lied to by our
leadership.

01:21:48.220 --> 01:21:48.900
For decades.

01:21:49.020 --> 01:21:50.640
It's been going on behind the scenes.

01:21:51.220 --> 01:21:56.200
Now, I first stumbled on the fact that we
had made a response from this book...

01:21:56.200 --> 01:21:59.340
on the process and responses of the
churches.

01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:03.100
And here, it lists a number of categories
of churches that responded.

01:22:03.300 --> 01:22:06.200
And it says, some communions have adopted
one common response.

01:22:06.720 --> 01:22:09.900
Roman Catholic Church, Salvation Army,
and Seventh-day Adventists.

01:22:10.420 --> 01:22:14.460
And the report that was drawn up for the
Roman Catholic Church...

01:22:14.460 --> 01:22:18.520
was prepared by the Secretariat for
Promoting Christian Unity in

01:22:18.520 --> 01:22:19.080
collaboration.

01:22:19.600 --> 01:22:22.460
Incidentally, the Secretariat for
Promoting Christian Unity...

01:22:22.460 --> 01:22:25.580
sits with us on the World Confessional
Families...

01:22:25.580 --> 01:22:27.620
or Christian World Communions now.

01:22:28.200 --> 01:22:32.580
It was prepared by them in collaboration
with the Congregation for the Doctrine of

01:22:32.580 --> 01:22:32.960
the Faith.

01:22:33.120 --> 01:22:36.440
That's the modern term for the Holy Office
of the Inquisition.

01:22:37.680 --> 01:22:39.260
So, they responded.

01:22:39.540 --> 01:22:40.380
We responded.

01:22:41.620 --> 01:22:46.720
So, I desperately wanted to get our
response to examine it...

01:22:46.720 --> 01:22:49.120
and see just what we said.

01:22:49.120 --> 01:22:54.500
Because the Unity of the Churches strategy
by Karl Rayner...

01:22:55.260 --> 01:22:58.380
rests upon the Baptism, Eucharist,
and Ministry document...

01:22:58.800 --> 01:23:02.560
which in turn rests upon the documents of
Vatican II.

01:23:03.340 --> 01:23:08.500
And in the very beginning of the Unity of
the Churches book by Karl Rayner...

01:23:08.500 --> 01:23:12.340
it discusses how the book was produced...

01:23:12.340 --> 01:23:18.040
in collaboration and in consultation with
the World Confessional Families...

01:23:18.040 --> 01:23:19.840
which we are a part of...

01:23:19.840 --> 01:23:22.020
and the Roman Catholic Church is a part
of...

01:23:22.020 --> 01:23:25.220
and the Faith and Order Commission,
which we have a member sitting on.

01:23:26.140 --> 01:23:30.940
I'm just overwhelmed as I'm sitting here
listening to you present all this

01:23:30.940 --> 01:23:31.960
information to us.

01:23:32.360 --> 01:23:36.080
The debt of gratitude, number one,
that the historic Adventists owe to you

01:23:36.080 --> 01:23:37.540
for the research that you have done...

01:23:37.540 --> 01:23:43.580
but also our thanks be to God for
inspiring you to do this...

01:23:43.580 --> 01:23:44.820
for calling you into this...

01:23:44.820 --> 01:23:48.300
because God realized that our historic
Adventist people...

01:23:48.300 --> 01:23:52.240
had to have a valid researcher that
collected all this data...

01:23:52.240 --> 01:23:55.180
and we have been involved in this
ecumenical movement...

01:23:55.180 --> 01:23:58.080
and this joining and clasping the hands of
the Roman power...

01:23:58.080 --> 01:24:01.060
and bringing Roman Catholicism right into
the Seventh-day Adventist Church...

01:24:01.060 --> 01:24:02.860
and it's been going on for years...

01:24:02.860 --> 01:24:07.080
and how this whole celebration movement
has been calculated and planned...

01:24:07.080 --> 01:24:09.360
and we are following a pre-set agenda.

01:24:09.920 --> 01:24:13.300
I even had, just a few days ago...

01:24:13.300 --> 01:24:17.380
a couple sent me a tape of a sermon that
was preached in their church...

01:24:18.080 --> 01:24:19.660
along with the transcript of the tape...

01:24:19.660 --> 01:24:24.500
in which the pastor told the congregation
that Catholic means universal.

01:24:24.980 --> 01:24:28.120
Therefore, you are Catholic, Adventists.

01:24:28.580 --> 01:24:32.120
And he said more specifically,
you are a Roman Catholic.

01:24:32.940 --> 01:24:35.020
And I listened to it with my own ears on
the tape.

01:24:35.180 --> 01:24:36.600
And this is a Seventh-day Adventist
minister?

01:24:36.720 --> 01:24:38.100
Yes, right from the pulpit, Sabbath
morning.

01:24:39.180 --> 01:24:41.340
Here is the statement I'm referring to.

01:24:41.340 --> 01:24:43.700
This book on the strategy...

01:24:43.700 --> 01:24:47.320
based on the BEM document and the Vatican
II...

01:24:47.320 --> 01:24:49.120
is a product of seasoned scholars...

01:24:49.120 --> 01:24:53.680
building on the earlier work of the Second
Vatican Council...

01:24:53.680 --> 01:24:56.620
the Faith and Order Commission of the
World Council of Churches...

01:24:56.620 --> 01:24:59.820
dialogues and theological reflection in
world confessional families...

01:24:59.820 --> 01:25:01.920
like the Lutheran World Federation.

01:25:02.700 --> 01:25:05.700
So, it's all tied together.

01:25:06.160 --> 01:25:07.460
You see, it's all interlocking.

01:25:08.160 --> 01:25:10.740
And in the first thesis...

01:25:10.740 --> 01:25:13.140
the creedal element becomes very dominant.

01:25:13.340 --> 01:25:15.420
And John, this is what is very clear.

01:25:15.440 --> 01:25:16.340
What do you mean by creedal?

01:25:16.640 --> 01:25:19.140
You mean what's taken from the creed of
the Roman Catholic Church?

01:25:19.140 --> 01:25:20.460
Let me just read the thesis.

01:25:20.760 --> 01:25:22.740
It says, the fundamental truths of
Christianity...

01:25:23.660 --> 01:25:26.240
as they are expressed in Holy Scripture in
the Apostles' Creed...

01:25:26.240 --> 01:25:27.740
in that of Nicaea and Constantinople...

01:25:28.440 --> 01:25:31.460
are binding on all partner churches of the
one church to be.

01:25:31.820 --> 01:25:33.580
You see, what the Jesuits want to do...

01:25:33.580 --> 01:25:36.680
is bypass the 16th century Reformation...

01:25:36.680 --> 01:25:40.020
go back to the way things were before
that...

01:25:40.020 --> 01:25:42.220
and it is very open that Rayner...

01:25:42.220 --> 01:25:44.020
very clear...

01:25:44.020 --> 01:25:45.900
that Rayner regards...

01:25:45.900 --> 01:25:48.100
and the Jesuits regard...

01:25:48.100 --> 01:25:50.960
the Protestant Reformation as a
rebellion...

01:25:50.960 --> 01:25:52.820
which took place...

01:25:52.820 --> 01:25:55.180
but now the churches are laying aside
their rebellion.

01:25:55.400 --> 01:25:56.880
They have ecumenical consciousness.

01:25:57.420 --> 01:25:59.300
They're all coming back to the mother
church.

01:25:59.300 --> 01:26:00.100
Come back home.

01:26:00.760 --> 01:26:03.060
Telling all the Protestant churches to
come back home.

01:26:03.080 --> 01:26:04.040
Let's have love and unity.

01:26:04.080 --> 01:26:06.880
Let's have love and unity and celebration
together.

01:26:07.180 --> 01:26:07.700
Absolutely.

01:26:08.220 --> 01:26:08.680
That's it.

01:26:08.680 --> 01:26:09.700
That's the code word.

01:26:10.140 --> 01:26:11.660
So, now...

01:26:11.660 --> 01:26:14.420
remember how the church went into
apostasy?

01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:17.980
The arguments from the great controversy
were...

01:26:17.980 --> 01:26:20.840
that Ellen White records that were
current...

01:26:20.840 --> 01:26:22.680
when the apostasy was developing...

01:26:23.460 --> 01:26:26.420
was that with some concessions on their
part...

01:26:26.420 --> 01:26:27.420
that's the idolaters...

01:26:27.420 --> 01:26:29.860
they proposed that Christians should make
concessions...

01:26:29.860 --> 01:26:33.320
that all might unite on the platform of
belief in Christ.

01:26:33.500 --> 01:26:33.680
Yes.

01:26:33.880 --> 01:26:34.520
Constantine.

01:26:35.080 --> 01:26:38.660
Now, a very important part of this first
thesis is...

01:26:38.660 --> 01:26:40.520
as they comment on it...

01:26:40.520 --> 01:26:42.720
Heinrich Fries comments on it in the
book...

01:26:42.720 --> 01:26:44.560
the one church to be is a possibility...

01:26:44.560 --> 01:26:46.280
only if it is a community of faith.

01:26:46.600 --> 01:26:49.240
Now, I ran into that over and over again
at the seminary.

01:26:49.660 --> 01:26:52.260
In the scholarly writings of the Jesuits
and the scholars...

01:26:52.260 --> 01:26:55.120
there is this emphasis on the community of
faith.

01:26:55.540 --> 01:26:57.840
Only the community of faith can do
theology.

01:26:58.460 --> 01:27:02.280
Only the community of faith is prior to
the individual.

01:27:02.680 --> 01:27:05.420
The individual is assumed into the
community of faith.

01:27:05.420 --> 01:27:07.540
What they do is they take the Protestant
Reformation...

01:27:08.100 --> 01:27:09.480
of the priesthood of all believers...

01:27:09.480 --> 01:27:11.540
and turn it on its head.

01:27:12.080 --> 01:27:16.480
And the church takes emphasis over the
individual.

01:27:17.020 --> 01:27:19.980
Now, I have a book over here, John...

01:27:19.980 --> 01:27:21.260
that I'd like to refer to.

01:27:25.610 --> 01:27:28.870
It's a book by a Jesuit from Notre Dame.

01:27:29.390 --> 01:27:30.170
Yes, here it is.

01:27:30.210 --> 01:27:31.250
What did he have to say?

01:27:31.730 --> 01:27:34.730
This is Mackenzie from Notre Dame...

01:27:34.730 --> 01:27:38.010
and he goes in some detail at the
beginning of this book...

01:27:38.010 --> 01:27:42.230
to describe the fact that the church
community...

01:27:42.230 --> 01:27:44.590
has priority over the individual.

01:27:45.510 --> 01:27:50.010
And the church gives the word to the
individual.

01:27:50.530 --> 01:27:52.730
Therefore, you see, if that is the case...

01:27:53.450 --> 01:27:56.090
then the church is above the word.

01:27:56.510 --> 01:27:56.670
Yes.

01:27:56.970 --> 01:27:59.450
The word comes out of the church.

01:27:59.710 --> 01:28:01.890
Therefore, the church has priority over
the word.

01:28:01.950 --> 01:28:03.990
And if you don't accept the word of the
church...

01:28:03.990 --> 01:28:05.370
then you are divisive.

01:28:05.710 --> 01:28:06.510
And you're in apostasy.

01:28:06.690 --> 01:28:08.310
You're in apostasy and you're a heretic.

01:28:08.610 --> 01:28:09.990
That's exactly right.

01:28:10.090 --> 01:28:12.390
It seems like I've heard that someplace
before.

01:28:12.590 --> 01:28:15.390
Yes, and you see, what is the Protestant
concept?

01:28:15.550 --> 01:28:19.190
The Protestant concept is that the word
has preeminence.

01:28:19.210 --> 01:28:19.650
Amen.

01:28:19.690 --> 01:28:22.990
And the church is to be in submission to
the word.

01:28:23.090 --> 01:28:26.970
And the message of the word calls the
church into being.

01:28:27.270 --> 01:28:28.790
That's how our movement got started.

01:28:28.830 --> 01:28:30.830
That's why we are Protestants.

01:28:30.850 --> 01:28:31.390
That's right.

01:28:31.390 --> 01:28:35.530
Because we won't accept the interpretation
of the church of the word.

01:28:35.890 --> 01:28:39.430
We are the priesthood of all believers who
are able to stand on our own two spiritual

01:28:39.430 --> 01:28:39.730
feet.

01:28:40.010 --> 01:28:42.070
That's what Martin Luther said.

01:28:42.130 --> 01:28:43.550
That's what started this whole thing.

01:28:43.790 --> 01:28:46.990
John, I want to touch on something here
before we move too far.

01:28:47.410 --> 01:28:49.130
And I have another book here I want you to
see.

01:28:49.670 --> 01:28:51.250
You've got a lot of books, Bob.

01:28:52.550 --> 01:28:55.390
And, you know, we're just going to keep
the tape rolling, brother.

01:28:55.490 --> 01:28:58.210
You just show us this material that you've
got.

01:28:58.210 --> 01:29:03.770
This is a book by one of the most
prominent Jesuits, John Kirtney Murray,

01:29:04.310 --> 01:29:05.190
Society of Jesus.

01:29:05.370 --> 01:29:09.290
We Hold These Truths, Catholic Reflections
on the American Proposition.

01:29:09.870 --> 01:29:13.870
Now, what this Jesuit does, and he is very
intelligent and very keen...

01:29:13.870 --> 01:29:15.210
Do you know a Jesuit that is not?

01:29:15.850 --> 01:29:19.670
I mean, these guys are masters at what
they do.

01:29:20.370 --> 01:29:26.590
What this book is, John, he attacks the
foundations of the philosophy upon which

01:29:26.590 --> 01:29:28.050
our Constitution rests.

01:29:28.050 --> 01:29:30.190
And he attacks John Locke.

01:29:30.330 --> 01:29:36.130
Now, John Locke propounded the concept of
the law of nature upon which our concept

01:29:36.130 --> 01:29:40.230
of inalienable human rights, natural
rights, rests.

01:29:40.670 --> 01:29:43.710
He attacks that, and he says that is
selfish.

01:29:44.590 --> 01:29:51.270
And what we need is Roman Catholic natural
law, in which he makes a sharp distinction

01:29:51.270 --> 01:29:55.650
between the law of nature of John Locke
and Roman Catholic natural law.

01:29:55.650 --> 01:29:58.310
Now, Roman Catholic natural law...

01:29:58.310 --> 01:30:02.830
That's what Clarence Thomas, all through
the hearings for Clarence Thomas,

01:30:02.890 --> 01:30:07.450
that's what I kept hearing over and over
and over again, was this natural law.

01:30:07.570 --> 01:30:08.610
What was he talking about?

01:30:08.670 --> 01:30:10.970
What's this natural law that Clarence
Thomas was talking about?

01:30:11.370 --> 01:30:17.090
The one who developed it to its apex was
Thomas Aquinas, the greatest systematic

01:30:17.090 --> 01:30:21.770
theologian that the Catholic Church has
ever had, and it rests on Plato's

01:30:21.770 --> 01:30:22.410
Republic.

01:30:22.410 --> 01:30:28.270
And what it means, basically, John,
is that this man is attacking the

01:30:28.270 --> 01:30:29.510
Protestant foundations.

01:30:30.150 --> 01:30:35.630
You see, in the Protestant thinking,
the priority of conscience, in direct

01:30:35.630 --> 01:30:39.570
submission to the Word and to Jesus
Christ, assumes precedent.

01:30:40.110 --> 01:30:44.950
And the concept of the priesthood of all
believers was so powerful, and the

01:30:44.950 --> 01:30:50.390
experience of the Reformers was so strong,
and in the Puritan movement, that

01:30:50.390 --> 01:30:53.150
government had to shape itself around
that.

01:30:53.410 --> 01:30:57.870
Churches had to shape itself around it,
like Ellen White says, that the Pilgrim

01:30:57.870 --> 01:31:02.210
Fathers that came here founded a nation
without a king, and a church without a

01:31:02.210 --> 01:31:04.590
pope, because individual conscience was
supreme.

01:31:05.050 --> 01:31:09.770
Now, if vital Protestantism is gone,
and that supremacy of individual

01:31:09.770 --> 01:31:14.870
conscience in relationship to God is gone,
natural law can move in, because in

01:31:14.870 --> 01:31:20.850
natural law, the individual submits to the
order imposed by the church and the state.

01:31:21.190 --> 01:31:26.270
So, this natural law that our new Supreme
Court Justice Clarence Thomas believes in,

01:31:26.630 --> 01:31:28.090
is Catholic-oriented.

01:31:28.090 --> 01:31:29.970
It is a Catholic law.

01:31:30.190 --> 01:31:34.830
And when he was talking about natural law,
he was talking about a Roman Catholic

01:31:34.830 --> 01:31:35.410
principle.

01:31:35.770 --> 01:31:39.870
Well, they are studying this book at
Catholic universities.

01:31:39.870 --> 01:31:42.030
This is Catholic thinking.

01:31:42.210 --> 01:31:46.770
This is the Catholic blueprint for
undermining and destroying our

01:31:46.770 --> 01:31:47.350
Constitution.

01:31:47.530 --> 01:31:53.450
But why I point this out, John,
is because this Jesuit attack upon the

01:31:53.450 --> 01:31:59.550
primacy of individual conscience is so
broad and far-reaching, it's hitting every

01:31:59.550 --> 01:32:02.550
aspect of our society, as well as our
church.

01:32:02.550 --> 01:32:08.830
And what we're struggling with in our
church right now is, which concept is

01:32:08.830 --> 01:32:09.810
going to be supreme?

01:32:10.310 --> 01:32:14.290
Is the word going to be supreme,
and the individual conscience in

01:32:14.290 --> 01:32:17.710
submission to that word, which is
Protestantism, according to Ellen White's

01:32:17.710 --> 01:32:19.650
chapter on the protest at Spires?

01:32:20.790 --> 01:32:23.090
Conscience is above the church?

01:32:23.210 --> 01:32:28.410
Or will it be a situation where the church
dominates the conscience, and the

01:32:28.410 --> 01:32:33.010
conscience has to submit to church
structure and government structure?

01:32:33.450 --> 01:32:38.310
That's the struggle that's going on in
Seventh-day Advent church between the

01:32:38.310 --> 01:32:41.390
organized conferences and the independent
ministries.

01:32:41.750 --> 01:32:45.210
And the independent ministries are
pleading with our people to please read

01:32:45.210 --> 01:32:46.370
and study on their own.

01:32:46.650 --> 01:32:51.610
It's the Protestant concept of doing your
own reading and researching and standing

01:32:51.610 --> 01:32:52.650
on your own spiritual feet.

01:32:52.650 --> 01:32:55.550
And the conference is saying, just trust
us.

01:32:55.690 --> 01:32:56.650
Stay with the conference.

01:32:57.010 --> 01:33:00.650
The church is going through, and the
church is the conference.

01:33:00.750 --> 01:33:01.890
The conference is the church.

01:33:02.150 --> 01:33:03.030
And just trust us.

01:33:03.250 --> 01:33:06.390
And if you need to know anything,
it will come out in the Union paper or in

01:33:06.390 --> 01:33:07.310
the Adventist Review.

01:33:07.710 --> 01:33:08.430
Just trust.

01:33:08.750 --> 01:33:10.650
It's this... I see now...

01:33:10.650 --> 01:33:14.790
It is the struggle between Protestantism
and Roman Catholicism taking place right

01:33:14.790 --> 01:33:15.830
now in our church.

01:33:15.830 --> 01:33:16.710
In the Seventh-day Adventist church.

01:33:16.810 --> 01:33:19.470
And that's the struggle between the
independent ministries and the conference.

01:33:19.470 --> 01:33:25.910
Is the principle of Protestantism versus
Catholicism.

01:33:26.030 --> 01:33:32.010
You realize that as long as we've been in
this struggle, that I have never realized

01:33:32.010 --> 01:33:35.470
that it was Protestantism versus
Catholicism.

01:33:35.790 --> 01:33:40.910
I mean, it may seem elementary and simple
to you, but I have to be totally honest

01:33:40.910 --> 01:33:45.470
with you that this is the first time that
I have really understood this.

01:33:45.470 --> 01:33:51.910
For what it was, that we're dealing with
Protestantism and Catholicism between the

01:33:51.910 --> 01:33:54.850
independent ministries and the organized
conferences.

01:33:55.970 --> 01:34:00.790
One is people standing on their own two
spiritual feet, and the other is trust the

01:34:00.790 --> 01:34:01.150
church.

01:34:01.590 --> 01:34:03.410
And it is a fierce battle.

01:34:03.810 --> 01:34:03.970
Believe me.

01:34:04.910 --> 01:34:05.910
It is a fierce battle.

01:34:06.170 --> 01:34:06.450
Unbelievable.

01:34:06.730 --> 01:34:10.910
And that's why this book, Great
Controversy, every lesson in it we have to

01:34:10.910 --> 01:34:11.610
have mastered.

01:34:12.050 --> 01:34:12.430
Oh.

01:34:13.450 --> 01:34:14.090
Every lesson.

01:34:14.090 --> 01:34:16.090
I tell you, I just feast on that book.

01:34:16.490 --> 01:34:21.730
If there is one thing that people have
learned from my videos, it's my love for

01:34:21.730 --> 01:34:23.190
the Triumph of God's Love, the Great
Controversy.

01:34:24.050 --> 01:34:28.330
And I just love that big Karl Porter
edition there with the big print.

01:34:28.430 --> 01:34:29.130
And I just go through it.

01:34:29.130 --> 01:34:30.430
When I get to the end, I go through it
again.

01:34:30.670 --> 01:34:34.630
If our people were just reading and
studying, they could see this thing for

01:34:34.630 --> 01:34:35.390
what it is.

01:34:35.550 --> 01:34:35.590
That's right.

01:34:36.150 --> 01:34:40.170
It's a struggle between Protestantism and
Catholicism.

01:34:40.330 --> 01:34:40.730
Absolutely.

01:34:40.730 --> 01:34:44.510
And this struggle over the Baptism,
Eucharist, and Ministry document is

01:34:44.510 --> 01:34:45.410
precisely that.

01:34:45.950 --> 01:34:49.970
Because let me read to you a little bit
out of the Waldensian response.

01:34:50.270 --> 01:34:51.350
You know the old Waldensians?

01:34:51.530 --> 01:34:51.890
Oh, yeah.

01:34:52.030 --> 01:34:53.050
They responded to this.

01:34:53.130 --> 01:34:56.870
Now, I don't believe they should be in
this process any more than we should.

01:34:57.210 --> 01:35:04.990
But they were notable for their rejection
of the basic premise of the BEM document.

01:35:04.990 --> 01:35:10.710
Whereas we were noted in the materials
that came out from the Faith and Order

01:35:10.710 --> 01:35:15.330
Commission in this book, we were noted as
being one of the most affirmative churches

01:35:15.330 --> 01:35:18.490
in affirming our appreciation...

01:35:18.490 --> 01:35:19.350
To the Roman Catholic Church.

01:35:19.370 --> 01:35:22.150
...to the Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry
document.

01:35:22.730 --> 01:35:27.770
We, as well as the Roman Catholic Church,
were noted in here for our appreciation.

01:35:27.770 --> 01:35:31.430
Well, that's why we have the Roman
Catholics coming to our general conference

01:35:31.430 --> 01:35:35.830
sessions in Indianapolis and addressing
the group and welcoming them.

01:35:36.330 --> 01:35:41.190
And why we are just mollycoddling the
Roman Catholics.

01:35:41.370 --> 01:35:46.170
Because we are one of the Protestant
churches that is being the quickest to

01:35:46.170 --> 01:35:48.350
clasp the hands of the Roman power.

01:35:49.730 --> 01:35:52.150
It's absolutely unbelievable.

01:35:52.570 --> 01:35:58.970
And still, our faithful Adventist people
that have been in the church all their

01:35:58.970 --> 01:36:02.030
lives are saying, Just stay with the
church.

01:36:02.110 --> 01:36:03.050
The church is going through.

01:36:03.110 --> 01:36:06.470
Did you read that article in the recent
review with the ship on the front?

01:36:07.330 --> 01:36:08.550
Was it by Roger Kuhn?

01:36:08.630 --> 01:36:09.210
Who was it by?

01:36:11.890 --> 01:36:17.550
The article on, or maybe it was Robert
Olson, about how the church is going

01:36:17.550 --> 01:36:22.670
through and twisting the writings of Ellen
White showing that the conference is the

01:36:22.670 --> 01:36:22.970
church.

01:36:23.070 --> 01:36:24.370
We've got to stay with the conference.

01:36:24.810 --> 01:36:26.790
And our people are just accepting this
stuff.

01:36:27.090 --> 01:36:28.110
Do you know why, Bob?

01:36:28.350 --> 01:36:29.030
They're not studying.

01:36:29.030 --> 01:36:31.650
I took the words right out of my mouth.

01:36:31.870 --> 01:36:33.030
They're not studying.

01:36:33.130 --> 01:36:34.570
Our people are not studying.

01:36:35.150 --> 01:36:39.870
No one of us, I believe, understands the
gravity of this issue.

01:36:39.990 --> 01:36:45.790
Because Satan's plan, according to Great
Controversy, is to get people away from

01:36:45.790 --> 01:36:50.330
studying for themselves and to put their
confidence in pastors, teachers,

01:36:50.630 --> 01:36:52.310
professors of theology, and church
leaders.

01:36:54.630 --> 01:36:55.910
She's warned us.

01:36:56.230 --> 01:36:56.730
It's there.

01:36:56.810 --> 01:36:58.450
But the Waldensees, what did they say?

01:36:58.450 --> 01:37:01.850
They had the strongest criticism of all
the churches.

01:37:02.470 --> 01:37:06.030
Among this group of critical comments,
the strongest ones come from the

01:37:06.030 --> 01:37:07.890
Waldensean and Methodist churches in
Italy.

01:37:08.350 --> 01:37:11.970
Their synod points out, together with
differentiations and affirmative remarks,

01:37:12.150 --> 01:37:17.730
that BEM, quote, indicates a convergence
in a sacramental and clerical direction,

01:37:17.810 --> 01:37:21.690
that's what we're talking about,
which is opposite to the direction in

01:37:21.690 --> 01:37:24.990
which the gospel calls the church in its
witness in the world.

01:37:24.990 --> 01:37:30.250
And that, quote, this ecumenical document
centers the faith, communion, and

01:37:30.250 --> 01:37:35.170
Christian witness not on God and the
gospel, but rather on the church as a

01:37:35.170 --> 01:37:39.530
sacred structure that has and gives
guarantees of the Spirit's activities

01:37:39.530 --> 01:37:44.910
through a cast endowed with priestly
powers, mediatorial and representing the

01:37:44.910 --> 01:37:45.370
divine.

01:37:45.950 --> 01:37:49.030
And that is exactly the struggle that
we're in now.

01:37:51.950 --> 01:37:54.890
Bob, you keep referring to this BEM
volume.

01:37:55.110 --> 01:37:56.170
Okay, this is volume 6.

01:37:56.750 --> 01:37:58.310
That has the Roman Catholic response in
it.

01:37:59.010 --> 01:38:00.890
Now this has the Seventh-day Adventist
response in it.

01:38:00.910 --> 01:38:06.230
Okay, now all these... I just realized
they all have these three wavy lines all

01:38:06.230 --> 01:38:06.410
the way.

01:38:06.470 --> 01:38:06.930
What are these?

01:38:07.310 --> 01:38:10.270
Do you think there's any significance to
these three wavy lines on all these?

01:38:10.410 --> 01:38:12.030
Now these are the responses...

01:38:12.550 --> 01:38:14.390
The responses of the churches to the
document.

01:38:14.390 --> 01:38:16.690
Of the churches to Vatican II?

01:38:16.690 --> 01:38:20.730
Well, in essence, that's what it boils
down to because the Baptism, Eucharist,

01:38:20.770 --> 01:38:22.470
and Ministry document rests on that.

01:38:22.470 --> 01:38:22.550
Who's this printed by?

01:38:23.070 --> 01:38:25.030
This is printed by the World Council of
Churches.

01:38:25.050 --> 01:38:26.650
This is printed by the World Council of
Churches.

01:38:26.750 --> 01:38:30.290
Do you think there's any significance to
these three wavy lines on all of these BEM

01:38:30.290 --> 01:38:30.870
documents?

01:38:31.390 --> 01:38:32.390
What do you see in it, John?

01:38:32.750 --> 01:38:37.870
I see something that very closely looks
like our new in-gathering brochure.

01:38:37.870 --> 01:38:38.290
Is that right?

01:38:38.830 --> 01:38:39.370
Is that right?

01:38:39.370 --> 01:38:45.430
There are three wavy lines almost in all
the artwork on every page of the new

01:38:45.430 --> 01:38:49.030
in-gathering brochure to be used for this
year's in-gathering campaign.

01:38:49.430 --> 01:38:50.850
There are three wavy lines.

01:38:51.490 --> 01:38:56.190
And then it comes down to the end to where
it just goes into one wavy line.

01:38:56.530 --> 01:39:02.910
Now, do you see anything in these three
wavy lines of apostate Protestantism,

01:39:03.150 --> 01:39:05.070
Catholicism, and Spiritualism?

01:39:05.450 --> 01:39:06.670
Well, there's three parts to Babylon.

01:39:06.770 --> 01:39:07.130
I know that.

01:39:07.130 --> 01:39:11.670
And then at the end it goes into one line
to where it takes the three elements of

01:39:11.670 --> 01:39:20.270
the three unclean spirits like frogs that
go together into one at the very end of

01:39:20.270 --> 01:39:20.850
the brochure.

01:39:20.930 --> 01:39:21.770
It's startling.

01:39:22.070 --> 01:39:26.810
And I see these same three wavy lines on
all of this stuff that's from the World

01:39:26.810 --> 01:39:27.730
Council of Churches.

01:39:27.790 --> 01:39:29.630
I see it on this.

01:39:30.270 --> 01:39:31.870
It's even on the BEM document.

01:39:32.350 --> 01:39:34.230
Is this the first time that you've noticed
this?

01:39:34.290 --> 01:39:35.790
I didn't.

01:39:35.790 --> 01:39:39.310
It didn't register with me about the three
lines on every one of them.

01:39:39.490 --> 01:39:41.370
Have you seen our in-gathering brochure?

01:39:41.470 --> 01:39:41.670
No, I haven't.

01:39:41.670 --> 01:39:42.650
Oh, you haven't.

01:39:42.710 --> 01:39:44.350
So I'm telling you about this for the
first time.

01:39:44.470 --> 01:39:44.610
That's right.

01:39:44.930 --> 01:39:45.990
We're both learning today.

01:39:46.650 --> 01:39:50.430
I'm noticing that on all of these books
you've got, we've got these three wavy

01:39:50.430 --> 01:39:51.670
lines on all of them.

01:39:51.990 --> 01:39:56.290
And this is exactly the three wavy lines
that are in the new Seventh-day Adventist

01:39:56.290 --> 01:39:58.050
in-gathering brochure.

01:39:58.050 --> 01:40:03.110
And it represents apostate Protestantism,
Catholicism, and Spiritualism.

01:40:03.350 --> 01:40:04.670
And they're all coming together.

01:40:05.690 --> 01:40:09.350
You know, this is just incredible stuff,
Bob.

01:40:09.570 --> 01:40:14.770
John, you know, what led us into all of
this was the fact that as I breezed

01:40:14.770 --> 01:40:21.050
quickly through the Seventh-day Adventist
response here, I underlined and made notes

01:40:21.050 --> 01:40:24.790
where we referred to the fundamental
beliefs.

01:40:24.790 --> 01:40:30.450
Because the first part, the very first
thesis of the strategy for bringing all

01:40:30.450 --> 01:40:34.590
the churches together, the Jesuit
strategy, is this matter of a creed and

01:40:34.590 --> 01:40:35.430
the community of faith.

01:40:35.530 --> 01:40:43.990
Incidentally, there was a recent editorial
in the review that strongly supported this

01:40:43.990 --> 01:40:48.570
concept of the community of faith and
opposed the idea that anyone could develop

01:40:48.570 --> 01:40:55.590
theology in isolation, like Noah or Elijah
or Moses, you know, or anything like this.

01:40:55.970 --> 01:41:01.150
Anyway, over and over again, the
fundamental beliefs are referred to.

01:41:01.490 --> 01:41:06.010
There is not one direct quote from the
Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy in our

01:41:06.010 --> 01:41:06.350
response.

01:41:06.650 --> 01:41:08.310
All we refer to is our creed.

01:41:08.330 --> 01:41:09.090
Fundamental beliefs.

01:41:09.110 --> 01:41:10.870
Have we adopted a creed, Bob?

01:41:10.990 --> 01:41:13.190
Well, de facto, absolutely.

01:41:13.610 --> 01:41:14.170
Absolutely.

01:41:14.490 --> 01:41:16.390
And it's in the review editorials.

01:41:16.390 --> 01:41:21.110
We have established a creed and that has
become our document of faith.

01:41:21.150 --> 01:41:25.390
But what is so significant about it,
John, is that the Jesuits like to have a

01:41:25.390 --> 01:41:29.190
church moved on to a creed because then
they can work that creed.

01:41:29.310 --> 01:41:34.070
And the creed can change and evolve into
bringing all the churches back together.

01:41:34.490 --> 01:41:34.950
It sure is.

01:41:34.950 --> 01:41:36.350
Does our church manual change?

01:41:36.410 --> 01:41:37.810
You better believe it does.

01:41:38.210 --> 01:41:41.330
To the whims of the conference brethren,
they change it.

01:41:42.050 --> 01:41:48.150
I will say that they did a rather strict
analysis in comparison to our fundamental

01:41:48.150 --> 01:41:48.630
beliefs.

01:41:49.150 --> 01:41:55.190
And they did even make the comment here
that the BEM document is too Catholic in

01:41:55.190 --> 01:41:55.650
intent.

01:41:55.930 --> 01:42:02.450
But I would emphasize that there is always
a staged development in the process.

01:42:02.770 --> 01:42:08.130
And you see, the fact, this crucial fact
for me, is that it's resting on a creed

01:42:08.130 --> 01:42:08.430
now.

01:42:08.650 --> 01:42:09.810
Our response to this.

01:42:09.810 --> 01:42:13.290
First of all, we shouldn't be in the
process of ecumenism at all.

01:42:13.630 --> 01:42:17.870
Second of all, the fact that we are now
resting our case on a creed, which is

01:42:17.870 --> 01:42:18.970
changing steadily.

01:42:19.430 --> 01:42:20.970
I just thought of something, Bob.

01:42:21.250 --> 01:42:22.770
I'm not trying to change the subject.

01:42:22.970 --> 01:42:25.190
I just thought of something and I want to
comment on it.

01:42:25.730 --> 01:42:29.750
Do you realize what you are opening
yourself up to?

01:42:30.350 --> 01:42:34.350
Coming here to Prophecy Countdown and
appearing in this video with me.

01:42:34.350 --> 01:42:39.350
They have absolutely unleashed the demons
of hell upon me and this ministry.

01:42:40.490 --> 01:42:45.230
Every type of diabolical smear tactic that
they possibly can use against me,

01:42:45.290 --> 01:42:45.930
they have used.

01:42:46.110 --> 01:42:48.370
And are continuing and it is intensifying
daily.

01:42:48.730 --> 01:42:50.470
They have disfellowshipped me personally.

01:42:50.570 --> 01:42:51.910
They have disbanded my church.

01:42:52.370 --> 01:42:56.810
They have done every form of persecution
that is legal thus far.

01:42:57.190 --> 01:43:01.230
They have hired a full time pastor,
taken him from his church to do nothing

01:43:01.230 --> 01:43:03.770
but in private investigation try to dig up
dirt on me.

01:43:03.770 --> 01:43:07.290
And have made the rounds of all former
employees of Prophecy Countdown.

01:43:07.950 --> 01:43:09.910
Disgruntled church members of the Rolling
Hills Church.

01:43:10.010 --> 01:43:14.570
Anybody that has anything that is of a
disparaging nature that they can come up

01:43:14.570 --> 01:43:15.690
with against Prophecy Countdown.

01:43:15.890 --> 01:43:19.910
They are even trying to come up with a
video to refute what I am doing.

01:43:20.230 --> 01:43:25.250
Do you understand and have you understood
before this moment what you were doing

01:43:25.250 --> 01:43:28.230
when you appeared on this video with me.

01:43:28.370 --> 01:43:30.290
And the truth that you are bringing out.

01:43:30.290 --> 01:43:33.690
Do you realize how this is going to shake
up our Adventist people when they see

01:43:33.690 --> 01:43:34.090
this.

01:43:34.630 --> 01:43:38.130
I mean and from what I understand from you
Bob.

01:43:38.670 --> 01:43:42.650
The tactics that they are using against me
to discredit me in this ministry and

01:43:42.650 --> 01:43:44.070
trying to crush what I am doing.

01:43:44.530 --> 01:43:51.530
And to stop this material going out to our
Adventist people and to diffuse it.

01:43:53.130 --> 01:43:56.490
Also is right out of the Roman Papacy.

01:43:56.670 --> 01:44:00.070
And right out of the tactics used by the
Jesuits.

01:44:00.730 --> 01:44:04.690
First off I want to ask you if you
realized what you were getting into when

01:44:04.690 --> 01:44:05.270
you came here.

01:44:05.490 --> 01:44:11.330
And number two how it plays into the whole
scenario of Catholicism bringing the

01:44:11.330 --> 01:44:13.410
Seventh-day Adventist Church back into the
fold.

01:44:13.470 --> 01:44:15.770
And all the Protestant churches back to
the Mother Church.

01:44:16.010 --> 01:44:17.930
And if this has been used in the past.

01:44:17.930 --> 01:44:21.450
And if it has anything, the tactics that
are being used against this ministry and

01:44:21.450 --> 01:44:25.390
me have anything to do with the material
that you have already shown us.

01:44:26.190 --> 01:44:30.870
John, first of all for the first question
I realize what I am doing coming here.

01:44:31.790 --> 01:44:32.890
We are in a war.

01:44:33.330 --> 01:44:33.730
Absolutely.

01:44:33.790 --> 01:44:36.550
The devil is making war against the
remnant.

01:44:37.050 --> 01:44:39.130
And I would like to get another book here.

01:44:39.830 --> 01:44:41.990
Bob go ahead and bring as many books as
you need over.

01:44:42.030 --> 01:44:44.090
If we need to move some of these off we
will.

01:44:44.090 --> 01:44:51.150
Well first of all, John, the subject of
rumor is an interesting one.

01:44:51.770 --> 01:44:58.530
In the Inquisition popular rumor was used
as the basis for apprehending people and

01:44:58.530 --> 01:45:00.210
dragging them into the Inquisition.

01:45:02.610 --> 01:45:10.870
The use of rumor and propaganda was used
against Martin Luther.

01:45:10.870 --> 01:45:15.330
And I would like to just bring you
something from D'Aubigny's history of the

01:45:15.330 --> 01:45:15.690
Reformation.

01:45:16.270 --> 01:45:17.610
Oh, Ellen White loved that book,
didn't she?

01:45:17.650 --> 01:45:21.570
Yes, she and James would read it for hours
every Sabbath afternoon.

01:45:21.690 --> 01:45:24.250
So they used these same tactics against
Martin Luther.

01:45:24.590 --> 01:45:26.390
Well, that makes me feel better.

01:45:27.570 --> 01:45:29.290
Well, here is the situation.

01:45:29.450 --> 01:45:32.730
You know, Staupitz introduced Luther to
Christ.

01:45:33.170 --> 01:45:34.770
Right, he is the one that brought him
into...

01:45:34.770 --> 01:45:39.930
But now as the heat came upon Martin
Luther something happened to Staupitz.

01:45:41.590 --> 01:45:44.950
Some of his friends seemed inclined to
retrace their steps.

01:45:45.650 --> 01:45:48.670
Staupitz, whom he designated his father,
appeared shaken.

01:45:49.250 --> 01:45:53.750
The Pope had accused him, and Staupitz had
declared his willingness to submit to the

01:45:53.750 --> 01:45:54.810
decision of his holiness.

01:45:55.570 --> 01:46:00.470
I fear, wrote Luther to him, that by
accepting the Pope for judge, you seem to

01:46:00.470 --> 01:46:02.730
reject me and the doctrines I have
maintained.

01:46:03.230 --> 01:46:06.770
If Christ loves you, he will constrain you
to recall your letter.

01:46:06.770 --> 01:46:09.990
Christ is condemned, stripped,
and blasphemed.

01:46:10.450 --> 01:46:13.130
This is a time not to fear, but to raise
the voice.

01:46:13.670 --> 01:46:17.550
For this reason, while you exhort me to be
humble, I exhort you to be proud.

01:46:17.930 --> 01:46:20.690
For you have too much humility,
as I have too much pride.

01:46:21.110 --> 01:46:26.250
The world may call me proud, covetous,
an adulterer, a murderer, anti-Pope,

01:46:26.370 --> 01:46:28.010
one who is guilty of every crime.

01:46:28.290 --> 01:46:29.250
So it all came in on him.

01:46:29.250 --> 01:46:30.950
They accused him of all those things.

01:46:30.950 --> 01:46:35.030
What matters it, provided I am not
reproached with having wickedly kept

01:46:35.030 --> 01:46:39.610
silence at the moment our Lord said with
sorrow, I looked on my right hand,

01:46:39.870 --> 01:46:42.250
and beheld, but there was no man that
would know me.

01:46:42.530 --> 01:46:45.990
The word of Jesus Christ is a word not of
peace, but of the sword.

01:46:46.350 --> 01:46:50.230
If you will not follow Jesus Christ,
I will walk alone, will advance alone,

01:46:50.270 --> 01:46:52.470
and alone I will carry the fortress.

01:46:53.330 --> 01:46:56.530
And so Luther recognized that he was in a
battle.

01:46:56.530 --> 01:47:01.790
They used propaganda warfare of rumor
against him to try to destroy him.

01:47:02.130 --> 01:47:05.050
In fact, a lot of Daubenier is occupied
with that.

01:47:05.170 --> 01:47:06.670
It's an old tactic.

01:47:07.870 --> 01:47:08.890
Go ahead, John.

01:47:09.050 --> 01:47:15.590
Well, that is incredible that this man
that was responsible for bending Martin

01:47:15.590 --> 01:47:21.590
Luther's early relationship with the Lord
and establishing Martin Luther in the

01:47:21.590 --> 01:47:28.070
faith, eventually turned against him,
said he had gone too far, accused him of

01:47:28.070 --> 01:47:33.570
all these treacherous deeds, and went
heading back towards Rome.

01:47:33.970 --> 01:47:35.950
Can I identify with that?

01:47:36.190 --> 01:47:36.570
Wow!

01:47:36.810 --> 01:47:38.810
I mean, that has happened to me.

01:47:38.810 --> 01:47:44.810
I mean, men who I fellowshiped with at one
time and were very close to have now

01:47:44.810 --> 01:47:50.070
turned against me and accused me of the
very things that they accused Martin

01:47:50.070 --> 01:47:54.230
Luther of and have headed back towards
Rome and say that I have gone too far.

01:47:54.790 --> 01:47:56.150
I'll have to be honest with you.

01:47:56.190 --> 01:47:58.050
I can really identify with that.

01:47:58.310 --> 01:47:59.510
Well, John, another thing.

01:48:00.170 --> 01:48:05.350
Martin Luther was accused of dividing the
church at the very time when it needed to

01:48:05.350 --> 01:48:05.870
be unified.

01:48:05.870 --> 01:48:08.730
The Turks were banging at the gates of
Vienna.

01:48:08.910 --> 01:48:11.990
They had swept across North Africa and up
into Spain.

01:48:12.450 --> 01:48:14.710
They were threatening the very existence
of Christendom.

01:48:15.110 --> 01:48:19.370
And people came to Luther and they said,
What are you doing splitting the church

01:48:19.370 --> 01:48:24.210
with your doctrine at this very critical
hour when we need church unity above all

01:48:24.210 --> 01:48:24.430
else?

01:48:24.910 --> 01:48:29.930
And Martin Luther said, Our safety lies in
obedience to the Word.

01:48:29.930 --> 01:48:32.810
And, you know, it was the same with the
Waldensees.

01:48:32.950 --> 01:48:39.390
I have a tract at home in which the Roman
Catholic Church accused the Waldensees of

01:48:39.390 --> 01:48:41.130
being opposed to church unity.

01:48:41.950 --> 01:48:44.010
And this is something very common.

01:48:44.110 --> 01:48:48.430
And here is an argument also which is
used.

01:48:50.450 --> 01:48:57.330
Here was a Miltitz who was trying to win
Martin Luther over with a very kindly

01:48:57.330 --> 01:49:04.210
approach, with a very thoughtful and
accommodating approach to try to squelch

01:49:04.210 --> 01:49:06.950
the Reformation through kindness at the
very beginning.

01:49:07.510 --> 01:49:10.850
My dear Martin, said the Pope's
chamberlain in a fawning tone,

01:49:11.350 --> 01:49:15.090
I thought you were an old theologian who,
seated quietly at his fireside,

01:49:15.150 --> 01:49:17.370
was laboring under some theological
crotchet.

01:49:17.470 --> 01:49:21.010
But I see you are still a young man and in
the prime of life.

01:49:21.010 --> 01:49:25.630
Do you know, continued he, assuming a
graver tone, that you have drawn away

01:49:25.630 --> 01:49:28.350
everybody from the Pope and attached them
to yourself?

01:49:29.190 --> 01:49:30.430
Have you ever heard that argument?

01:49:31.050 --> 01:49:31.490
Exactly!

01:49:31.710 --> 01:49:37.190
You know that I am some self-proclaimed
Messiah that is supposed to...

01:49:37.190 --> 01:49:38.870
Well, how ridiculous!

01:49:39.770 --> 01:49:41.550
Number one, I'm not self-proclaimed.

01:49:41.670 --> 01:49:44.010
And number two, I'm not setting myself up
as an example.

01:49:44.270 --> 01:49:46.310
All I'm saying is get back to the Word.

01:49:46.430 --> 01:49:47.750
Get back to thus saith the Lord.

01:49:48.050 --> 01:49:49.590
Read and study for yourself.

01:49:49.590 --> 01:49:55.790
And using these tactics of slander,
you were telling me earlier, Bob,

01:49:55.850 --> 01:50:01.470
that this is not only the tactics of
modern warfare and that we can go back for

01:50:01.470 --> 01:50:06.590
some time and explore that, but it's also
incorporated by the Pentagon, by the CIA.

01:50:07.210 --> 01:50:08.870
How does all of this tie in?

01:50:08.930 --> 01:50:09.710
I would like to know.

01:50:09.890 --> 01:50:11.270
I want to look at that in just a second.

01:50:11.790 --> 01:50:19.570
Here is... the nuncio went on saying that
he had...

01:50:19.570 --> 01:50:23.470
...that you yourself have inflicted on the
Church and that you alone can heal.

01:50:24.050 --> 01:50:26.110
Beware, said he, dropping a few tears.

01:50:26.250 --> 01:50:30.510
Beware of raising a tempest that would
cause the destruction of Christendom.

01:50:30.970 --> 01:50:32.890
Oh, the destruction of the Church.

01:50:32.970 --> 01:50:33.770
We've got to do something.

01:50:33.870 --> 01:50:35.150
The Perth Declaration.

01:50:35.550 --> 01:50:40.010
And now that I've read about how the
conference presidents and union presidents

01:50:40.010 --> 01:50:44.990
are not happy with the Perth Declaration
and they even want them to put more bite

01:50:44.990 --> 01:50:50.790
and teeth into it and call us by name and
say what we are doing and just really

01:50:50.790 --> 01:50:56.350
getting vehement against the independent
ministries that are daring to reveal to

01:50:56.350 --> 01:50:59.930
our historic Adventist people what is
really going on in the Church.

01:51:00.510 --> 01:51:07.050
John, it's interesting that Hitler
understood the use of propaganda very

01:51:07.050 --> 01:51:07.810
powerfully.

01:51:07.810 --> 01:51:13.330
In fact, from the time of Marx and Engels
on, in modern strategy, in the study of

01:51:13.330 --> 01:51:18.490
modern strategy, warfare is conceived of,
first of all, as being diplomatic.

01:51:18.650 --> 01:51:20.690
That's like what the nuncio was doing with
Luther.

01:51:22.210 --> 01:51:29.110
Diplomatic, ideological warfare,
propaganda warfare, economic warfare,

01:51:29.110 --> 01:51:31.450
and military is only at the last resort.

01:51:31.570 --> 01:51:33.310
You can even look at the Kuwait War for
that.

01:51:33.610 --> 01:51:34.770
But here's what Hitler said.

01:51:34.770 --> 01:51:40.290
He said, the place of artillery
preparation for frontal attack will in the

01:51:40.290 --> 01:51:43.090
future be taken by revolutionary
propaganda.

01:51:43.530 --> 01:51:48.790
He explained, in this way he would conquer
the enemy's sight before his armies needed

01:51:48.790 --> 01:51:49.870
to fire their guns.

01:51:50.390 --> 01:51:55.290
How to achieve the moral breakdown of the
enemy before the war has started,

01:51:55.610 --> 01:51:57.570
that is the problem that interests me.

01:51:57.570 --> 01:52:03.870
And so Hitler was interested in how to
break down the moral defenses of the enemy

01:52:03.870 --> 01:52:04.750
by using propaganda.

01:52:05.250 --> 01:52:08.930
To wipe them out psychologically,
to wipe them out morally.

01:52:09.170 --> 01:52:13.510
And here we have, published in Freedom's
Ring in our last issue, our

01:52:13.510 --> 01:52:20.430
November-December issue, a course outline
from the Pentagon that was used in

01:52:20.430 --> 01:52:25.730
training Latin American military officers
on the utilization and containment of

01:52:25.730 --> 01:52:26.050
rumors.

01:52:26.050 --> 01:52:30.050
How to use rumor to destroy the enemy.

01:52:30.350 --> 01:52:33.990
And copies of this and other courses
taught at the School of the Americas in

01:52:33.990 --> 01:52:39.370
the Panama Canal Zone have also appeared
in the Jesuit magazine, Diagolo Social,

01:52:39.990 --> 01:52:41.390
published in Panama City.

01:52:41.950 --> 01:52:48.590
And so this is a course, and we have the
outline here, in how to utilize rumor to

01:52:48.590 --> 01:52:49.470
destroy the enemy.

01:52:49.630 --> 01:52:53.930
One interesting formula in it is PR equals
I times A.

01:52:53.930 --> 01:52:59.890
The power of the rumor, PR, equals I,
the importance of the theme it refers to,

01:53:00.170 --> 01:53:02.250
times A, the ambiguity present.

01:53:04.230 --> 01:53:09.010
And so the objective of the course is to
teach the dynamic of the procedure for

01:53:09.010 --> 01:53:09.930
disseminating rumors.

01:53:10.030 --> 01:53:13.850
Now, we're looking at a tremendous
artillery barrage.

01:53:13.850 --> 01:53:18.530
You know, at the end of World War II,
the Russians, when they began their last

01:53:18.530 --> 01:53:25.050
assault against Germany, unleashed 1,000
artillery pieces at the same time,

01:53:25.370 --> 01:53:26.710
early one morning.

01:53:27.230 --> 01:53:31.010
And we're now in a tremendous artillery
barrage of propaganda.

01:53:31.290 --> 01:53:32.490
It's not stopping now.

01:53:32.950 --> 01:53:33.930
It's going to continue.

01:53:34.590 --> 01:53:39.110
It's going to increase until God's people
are made the objects of universal

01:53:39.110 --> 01:53:40.430
execration.

01:53:40.430 --> 01:53:43.610
We have to count the cost, like Jesus
said.

01:53:43.930 --> 01:53:47.570
Count the cost and see whether you're
prepared.

01:53:48.310 --> 01:53:54.870
And I want to tell you, this Perth
Declaration is the first major barrage,

01:53:55.210 --> 01:53:59.150
salvo, from the denominational leadership
against the independent ministries.

01:53:59.230 --> 01:54:07.270
Really organized, calculated, orchestrated
attack, like the 1,000 pieces of artillery

01:54:07.270 --> 01:54:09.110
by the Germans at one time.

01:54:09.110 --> 01:54:11.150
And it's just the beginning, folks.

01:54:11.310 --> 01:54:12.610
It is just the beginning.

01:54:13.250 --> 01:54:17.530
They are starting the intense persecution
on the independent ministries because we

01:54:17.530 --> 01:54:22.670
have dared to wake up the sleeping saints
in God's church and show them the stuff

01:54:22.670 --> 01:54:26.730
that's been going on for years right under
our nose and nobody knew it.

01:54:26.910 --> 01:54:30.970
And praise God that He has raised up men
like you to do the research to reveal to

01:54:30.970 --> 01:54:32.150
God's people what is going on.

01:54:32.150 --> 01:54:38.690
And I want to tell you, when our people
see this research that you have done,

01:54:39.710 --> 01:54:42.550
Brother Bob, they've got to make either
two choices.

01:54:43.150 --> 01:54:45.990
Either for Protestantism or for
Catholicism.

01:54:46.450 --> 01:54:48.610
That's what it's all coming down to.

01:54:48.990 --> 01:54:53.410
You either accept Protestantism or you
accept Catholicism.

01:54:53.730 --> 01:54:54.230
That's it.

01:54:54.690 --> 01:54:55.090
That's it.

01:54:55.390 --> 01:55:00.050
And Protestantism comes down, in the final
analysis, to the three angels' messages.

01:55:00.050 --> 01:55:00.750
Absolutely.

01:55:01.050 --> 01:55:01.610
In verity.

01:55:02.430 --> 01:55:05.750
You know, one of the methods of
dissemination, according to this course,

01:55:05.830 --> 01:55:07.130
is the use of agents.

01:55:07.610 --> 01:55:11.350
And it says, friends in the affected
region originate the rumor within the

01:55:11.350 --> 01:55:17.670
group and they will create it by means of
questions that insinuate their responses.

01:55:18.370 --> 01:55:23.490
And they will encourage sympathizers to
disseminate stories and to distort them.

01:55:23.630 --> 01:55:27.690
And in a state of friendly confidence,
they will spread the rumors.

01:55:27.690 --> 01:55:28.950
Friendly confidence.

01:55:29.710 --> 01:55:31.070
Does that have anything to do with NLP?

01:55:31.690 --> 01:55:33.290
Getting a person on your side?

01:55:33.830 --> 01:55:34.310
Pacing?

01:55:35.250 --> 01:55:35.730
Mirroring?

01:55:35.910 --> 01:55:36.310
Imaging?

01:55:37.210 --> 01:55:40.430
You know, all of these different
techniques taught in NLP.

01:55:40.570 --> 01:55:42.550
How to get a person on your side.

01:55:42.690 --> 01:55:47.950
Get into their mind and work their mind
around to your way of thinking and get

01:55:47.950 --> 01:55:48.890
the...

01:55:48.890 --> 01:55:50.690
It all fits together, John.

01:55:50.970 --> 01:55:51.390
All fits together.

01:55:51.390 --> 01:55:57.070
And what the devil is wanting to
accomplish is to completely, with a

01:55:57.070 --> 01:56:02.750
knockout blow, nip in the bud the attempt
at a revival of primitive godliness.

01:56:03.050 --> 01:56:04.510
Exactly what Satan is trying to do.

01:56:04.530 --> 01:56:05.350
That's what Satan is trying to do.

01:56:05.430 --> 01:56:07.650
That's the purpose of the celebration
movement.

01:56:07.650 --> 01:56:07.670
Yes.

01:56:07.770 --> 01:56:10.150
The purpose of the charismatic movement.

01:56:10.270 --> 01:56:11.170
The false revival.

01:56:11.290 --> 01:56:13.430
The Catholic charismatic movement.

01:56:13.430 --> 01:56:20.170
I... so many things are bursting on my
consciousness as I talk with you.

01:56:21.830 --> 01:56:26.490
This sounds elementary and I'm kind of
afraid to say it, but this is the...

01:56:26.490 --> 01:56:32.250
And I guess I knew it all along,
but maybe this is the first time that I've

01:56:32.250 --> 01:56:34.170
put it together and verbalized it.

01:56:34.490 --> 01:56:41.150
To realize that the celebration movement
totally negates the three angels message.

01:56:41.150 --> 01:56:50.230
And the celebration movement has been
organized and formulated to counteract the

01:56:50.230 --> 01:56:51.790
preaching of the three angels message.

01:56:52.110 --> 01:56:52.730
Absolutely.

01:56:53.650 --> 01:57:01.510
And John, thesis number two of the Jesuit
strategy is that nothing may be rejected

01:57:01.510 --> 01:57:06.650
decisively and confessionally in one
partner church which is binding dogma in

01:57:06.650 --> 01:57:07.610
another partner church.

01:57:07.610 --> 01:57:08.890
Do you understand that?

01:57:09.050 --> 01:57:15.730
That means that anything that the Roman
Catholic Church holds cannot be decisively

01:57:15.730 --> 01:57:20.010
rejected in the world church to be by
another group or entity.

01:57:20.350 --> 01:57:26.110
You cannot condemn Sunday keeping,
you see, the Eucharist, any of that.

01:57:26.370 --> 01:57:30.050
That is all part of the strategy for the
world church to be.

01:57:30.050 --> 01:57:36.590
Bob, it's just dawning on me here,
something I've said in letters to our

01:57:36.590 --> 01:57:40.810
constituency for some time now,
but now as I'm beginning to assimilate all

01:57:40.810 --> 01:57:48.270
of this information that you're giving us
here, it's just becoming so clear that if

01:57:48.270 --> 01:57:53.270
we are going to preach the three angels
message to the world, the laity have got

01:57:53.270 --> 01:57:53.970
to do it.

01:57:53.970 --> 01:57:58.250
Our denomination and our leadership and
our church is not going to preach the

01:57:58.250 --> 01:58:00.510
three angels message to the world.

01:58:00.670 --> 01:58:02.470
We quit doing that years ago.

01:58:03.150 --> 01:58:07.710
And if we are... and they are even... not
only are they not going to preach the

01:58:07.710 --> 01:58:11.570
three angels message, they quit that years
ago, but even if we're not going to preach

01:58:11.570 --> 01:58:18.290
it, they have now formulated a strategy to
crush the preaching of the three angels

01:58:18.290 --> 01:58:19.990
message and to negate it.

01:58:19.990 --> 01:58:23.590
Not only are they not preaching it,
but they have now brought in celebration

01:58:23.590 --> 01:58:28.630
which totally strikes at the heart and
does away with the preaching of the three

01:58:28.630 --> 01:58:29.210
angels message.

01:58:29.490 --> 01:58:34.630
So not only are they not going to preach
it, but they don't want us, the laity,

01:58:34.770 --> 01:58:35.490
to preach it either.

01:58:35.710 --> 01:58:37.710
And that's what celebration is all about.

01:58:38.070 --> 01:58:43.470
And so what God's historic people,
Adventist people must do is get serious

01:58:43.470 --> 01:58:48.510
about formulating our own plans through
the power of the Holy Spirit to preach the

01:58:48.510 --> 01:58:50.150
three angels message to the world.

01:58:50.290 --> 01:58:52.270
We're the ones that are going to have to
do it.

01:58:52.510 --> 01:58:57.750
We are the ones whom God is calling to
preach the three angels message to the

01:58:57.750 --> 01:58:58.170
world.

01:58:58.290 --> 01:58:58.650
Exactly.

01:58:59.210 --> 01:59:02.950
And our weapon is the weapon of truth and
the Holy Spirit.

01:59:03.230 --> 01:59:04.950
We can only use the weapons of heaven.

01:59:05.850 --> 01:59:10.730
And if we start to use the weapons of the
enemy, we move over into his camp.

01:59:10.730 --> 01:59:17.370
So practical godliness is so critical and
that we have the actual spirit of Christ.

01:59:17.470 --> 01:59:18.330
Now it's very interesting.

01:59:18.490 --> 01:59:22.690
In commenting on this thesis about no one
condemning anything that's in another

01:59:22.690 --> 01:59:27.450
church, Carl Rainer says, and this is his
reasoning and it fits in exactly with what

01:59:27.450 --> 01:59:33.170
the Great Controversy says, he says that
no one can depend anymore on his own study

01:59:33.170 --> 01:59:35.170
to form his conclusions and his worldview.

01:59:35.170 --> 01:59:39.130
Quote, as an individual, one becomes ever
more impotent.

01:59:39.510 --> 01:59:44.170
One has to depend more and more on the
knowledge of others which one can no

01:59:44.170 --> 01:59:47.330
longer assimilate or check oneself.

01:59:47.750 --> 01:59:51.950
In other words, we have to depend on the
ecclesiastical authorities.

01:59:52.290 --> 01:59:57.010
And he points out the holy office of the
Inquisition, the sacred congregation for

01:59:57.010 --> 02:00:00.230
the doctrine of the faith as being the
only body that can approach to this kind

02:00:00.230 --> 02:00:02.450
of competence in dealing with this.

02:00:02.450 --> 02:00:08.910
Incidentally, John, as you were talking,
I remembered that one of the strategies of

02:00:08.910 --> 02:00:16.270
Carl Rainer in his book is that the
ecclesiastical leadership of each church

02:00:16.270 --> 02:00:21.870
is responsible for maintaining discipline
in its own ranks along the drive toward

02:00:21.870 --> 02:00:23.250
union with Rome.

02:00:23.450 --> 02:00:28.580
Maintaining discipline, getting rid of the
dissidents and the ones who are divisive.

02:00:28.580 --> 02:00:33.840
And have you noticed that just in the last
several years have they added the clause

02:00:33.840 --> 02:00:39.660
to their creedal document, the church
manual, that gives another reason for

02:00:39.660 --> 02:00:41.640
church discipline, and that is being
divisive.

02:00:42.400 --> 02:00:46.700
That was never part of the creed of the
Seventh-day Advent Church before until

02:00:46.700 --> 02:00:51.340
recently because they wanted a way to
disfellowship and get rid of the

02:00:51.340 --> 02:00:52.340
independent ministers.

02:00:52.660 --> 02:00:54.060
That's all in canon law, John.

02:00:54.200 --> 02:00:54.620
Absolutely.

02:00:54.960 --> 02:00:56.600
It's right out of Roman Catholic canon
law.

02:00:56.600 --> 02:01:04.820
Canon law is the Catholic article,
the Catholic institution of law,

02:01:04.940 --> 02:01:07.440
this natural law, this Catholic law.

02:01:07.800 --> 02:01:10.020
Let me get you a copy of it, John.

02:01:10.700 --> 02:01:13.680
So canon law is Catholic law.

02:01:15.540 --> 02:01:19.660
You need to make sure that people
understand because I know throughout

02:01:19.660 --> 02:01:23.520
Freedom's Ring you refer to canon law and
they need to understand that what you're

02:01:23.520 --> 02:01:26.600
referring to when you say canon law is
Catholic law.

02:01:26.860 --> 02:01:27.300
Oh, absolutely.

02:01:27.640 --> 02:01:33.580
This was promulgated by John Paul II in
1983, Code of Canon Law.

02:01:34.260 --> 02:01:42.460
And in this book, at the back you have the
sequence for trials under canon law.

02:01:42.560 --> 02:01:46.480
Now that's a whole other subject,
John, which I hope if we have time we can

02:01:46.480 --> 02:01:51.540
get into, the difference between Roman
Catholic canon law and English common law

02:01:51.540 --> 02:01:53.120
and American constitutionalism.

02:01:53.240 --> 02:01:59.580
Our whole system of law that we have in
America rests upon English common law,

02:01:59.680 --> 02:02:06.300
which battled against canon law in
providing safeguards and guarantees for

02:02:06.300 --> 02:02:09.300
the people of England and then ultimately
in America.

02:02:09.460 --> 02:02:13.160
For instance, under canon law you could be
arrested in the middle of the night under

02:02:13.160 --> 02:02:14.720
suspicion because of rumor.

02:02:15.260 --> 02:02:18.720
The judge can make the decision to have
you arrested himself.

02:02:18.920 --> 02:02:20.560
You can be arrested in the middle of the
night.

02:02:20.860 --> 02:02:22.460
Your family don't know where you've gone.

02:02:22.760 --> 02:02:23.500
You're in prison.

02:02:23.940 --> 02:02:28.880
You can be judged by the judge in secret
and put to death in secret.

02:02:28.940 --> 02:02:30.660
No one ever knows what happened to you.

02:02:30.800 --> 02:02:32.020
That's what happened during the Dark Ages.

02:02:32.120 --> 02:02:33.480
During the Dark Ages, yes.

02:02:34.260 --> 02:02:38.860
Now, under English common law,
first of all, if someone comes and takes

02:02:38.860 --> 02:02:43.960
you away in the middle of the night,
your wife can get a writ of habeas corpus

02:02:43.960 --> 02:02:49.840
to demand the jailer to show cause why you
are in prison.

02:02:50.060 --> 02:02:51.060
Here is the body.

02:02:51.220 --> 02:02:53.120
You bring the body up out of the jail.

02:02:53.540 --> 02:02:54.740
Here is the reason he's in.

02:02:55.360 --> 02:03:01.400
And then the accusations have to be made
in public by an accuser.

02:03:01.480 --> 02:03:02.900
The judge is impartial.

02:03:03.300 --> 02:03:07.880
There is a jury that decides, of your
peers, that decides whether you are guilty

02:03:07.880 --> 02:03:08.540
or innocent.

02:03:08.540 --> 02:03:15.300
And then the impartial judge will mete out
the sentence.

02:03:15.960 --> 02:03:20.940
And in our whole Bill of Rights,
there is the defense against Roman

02:03:20.940 --> 02:03:21.840
Catholic canon law.

02:03:21.900 --> 02:03:25.440
Now, that's why, with the new Supreme
Court, which has been brought into

02:03:25.440 --> 02:03:29.740
position through the use of the abortion
issue, and that's a whole other subject,

02:03:29.900 --> 02:03:36.640
John, we'll be here for days, the new
judiciary and the new executive and

02:03:36.640 --> 02:03:43.620
legislative aspects of our government are
all slanted now in a direction in which we

02:03:43.620 --> 02:03:46.580
are rolling back the clock and we are
moving back to canon law.

02:03:46.680 --> 02:03:48.560
Even in decisions like Arizona v.

02:03:48.720 --> 02:03:55.160
Fulminati, the dissenting justices said,
we have now, in this case, turned away

02:03:55.160 --> 02:04:00.020
from our accusatorial legal system and
accepted the inquisitorial system.

02:04:00.020 --> 02:04:05.080
Because now, forced confessions can be
accepted in court.

02:04:05.220 --> 02:04:12.160
Okay, speaking of common law and canon
law, which law was it that was followed

02:04:12.160 --> 02:04:18.440
when the Florida Conference
disfellowshipped me and they told me that

02:04:18.440 --> 02:04:23.100
my invitation to appear before them was
rescinded and that I was taken off of the

02:04:23.100 --> 02:04:27.940
agenda and behind closed doors,
behind my back, in secret, they

02:04:27.940 --> 02:04:31.420
disfellowshipped me from the Florida
Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.

02:04:31.640 --> 02:04:33.560
Was that common law or canon law?

02:04:33.660 --> 02:04:35.240
Well, it certainly wasn't common law.

02:04:36.700 --> 02:04:42.860
Basically, they followed step-by-step the
canon law procedure for the removal of a

02:04:42.860 --> 02:04:43.280
pastor.

02:04:43.460 --> 02:04:44.020
Now, what is that?

02:04:44.040 --> 02:04:45.720
In your disfellowshipping.

02:04:45.860 --> 02:04:48.180
The Catholic procedure for removing a
pastor?

02:04:48.340 --> 02:04:48.480
Right.

02:04:48.600 --> 02:04:49.180
What is that?

02:04:49.300 --> 02:04:51.380
What is the agenda for that?

02:04:51.380 --> 02:04:56.420
Well, we go through it here in the last
issue of Freedom's Ring.

02:04:58.980 --> 02:05:03.040
Does that have anything to do with the way
that the Seventh-day Adventist church

02:05:03.040 --> 02:05:07.540
leadership is now removing historic
Adventist pastors from their leadership

02:05:07.540 --> 02:05:08.060
positions?

02:05:08.100 --> 02:05:08.620
Not only that, but...

02:05:08.620 --> 02:05:10.220
Removing people from their church offices?

02:05:10.400 --> 02:05:11.260
Exactly, yes.

02:05:11.520 --> 02:05:17.100
In fact, in your case, it got to the point
there at the end where they swept aside.

02:05:17.100 --> 02:05:21.780
And what I'm saying is they're following,
they're paralleling it, whether it's a

02:05:21.780 --> 02:05:24.200
conscious or unconscious thing,
you know, God only knows.

02:05:24.620 --> 02:05:30.680
They followed parallel the process,
according to canon law, for the removal of

02:05:30.680 --> 02:05:33.060
a pastor in your disfellowshipping
process.

02:05:33.200 --> 02:05:37.760
But at the end, as things intensified,
they swept away even canon law and used

02:05:37.760 --> 02:05:41.980
what they had in the Inquisition,
where there were no laws.

02:05:42.710 --> 02:05:48.000
And everything had to be swept away in the
attempt to deal with the offender,

02:05:48.180 --> 02:05:49.880
so he wouldn't get out of their grasp.

02:05:50.040 --> 02:05:55.020
Does the situation now transpiring in
Troy, Montana, have anything to do with

02:05:55.020 --> 02:05:57.060
canon law to where they are now?

02:05:57.380 --> 02:06:05.600
The Montana Conference has informed the
Troy church that unless they disfellowship

02:06:05.600 --> 02:06:08.060
me, that they will disband their church?

02:06:08.060 --> 02:06:11.840
Well, John, backing up a little bit to
some of the earlier questions,

02:06:12.720 --> 02:06:18.180
canon law declares in canon 1311,
the church has an innate and proper right

02:06:18.180 --> 02:06:23.820
to coerce or force offending members of
the Christian faithful by means of penal

02:06:23.820 --> 02:06:24.440
sanctions.

02:06:25.160 --> 02:06:30.760
And canon 1312, number 2, says the law can
establish other expiatory penalties which

02:06:30.760 --> 02:06:35.300
deprive a believer of some spiritual or
temporal good and are consistent with the

02:06:35.300 --> 02:06:36.880
supernatural end of the church.

02:06:36.880 --> 02:06:42.320
Then canon 1331, number 1, says an
excommunicated person is forbidden,

02:06:42.500 --> 02:06:47.640
1, to have any ministerial participation
in celebrating the Eucharistic sacrifice

02:06:47.640 --> 02:06:51.300
or in any other ceremonies whatsoever of
public worship.

02:06:51.700 --> 02:06:56.680
Number 3, to discharge any ecclesiastical
offices, ministries, or functions

02:06:56.680 --> 02:06:59.020
whatsoever or to place acts of governance.

02:07:00.740 --> 02:07:07.400
And then number 4, he cannot validly
acquire a dignity, office, or other

02:07:07.400 --> 02:07:08.560
function in the church.

02:07:08.900 --> 02:07:13.020
Then in the area of controlling revenue,
number 5, he cannot appropriate the

02:07:13.020 --> 02:07:14.160
revenues from any dignity.

02:07:14.220 --> 02:07:15.780
Have you noticed revenue is a big issue?

02:07:15.800 --> 02:07:17.140
Oh, that's the big thing, of course.

02:07:17.560 --> 02:07:21.080
That's why that tithe booklet was in the
recent Adventist Review.

02:07:21.320 --> 02:07:24.100
Any dignity, office, function,
or pension in the church.

02:07:24.100 --> 02:07:28.800
Canon 1333, number 4, a suspension
forbidding one to collect revenues,

02:07:29.000 --> 02:07:31.240
stipends, pensions, or any other such
thing.

02:07:31.760 --> 02:07:34.420
And then there are punishments for
violating unity, you see.

02:07:34.700 --> 02:07:37.340
Offenses against religion and the unity of
the church.

02:07:37.820 --> 02:07:43.280
Canon 1364, number 1, with due regard for
canon 194, number 1.

02:07:43.360 --> 02:07:48.460
Number 2, an apostate from the faith,
a heretic or a schismatic, incurs

02:07:48.460 --> 02:07:50.400
automatic excommunication.

02:07:50.400 --> 02:07:56.020
So, you see, if you are a heretic or a
schismatic, you incur automatic

02:07:56.020 --> 02:07:57.580
excommunication.

02:07:58.280 --> 02:08:02.220
Number 2, if long-lasting contumacy,
in other words, lack of submission,

02:08:02.520 --> 02:08:06.980
or the seriousness of scandal warrants it,
other penalties can be added, including

02:08:06.980 --> 02:08:09.180
dismissal from the clerical state.

02:08:09.600 --> 02:08:14.980
Canon 1369, a person who uses a public
show or speech, published writings,

02:08:15.240 --> 02:08:20.560
or other media of social communication to
blaspheme, seriously damage good morals,

02:08:20.700 --> 02:08:25.360
express wrongs against religion or against
the church, or stir up hatred or contempt

02:08:25.360 --> 02:08:29.400
against religion or the church,
is to be punished with a just penalty.

02:08:29.920 --> 02:08:33.900
Now, it's interesting that the early
Christians were called haters of the human

02:08:33.900 --> 02:08:34.280
race.

02:08:34.640 --> 02:08:42.080
Tacitus records that for us in his Annals,
how the reason the people were burned in

02:08:42.080 --> 02:08:49.160
the time of Nero was because the
population regarded them as being haters

02:08:49.160 --> 02:08:50.320
of the human race.

02:08:50.800 --> 02:08:55.440
So, what we're moving into at the end of
time is a situation where the unregenerate

02:08:55.440 --> 02:09:01.760
mind is going to look upon the faithful as
being haters and not going along with love

02:09:01.760 --> 02:09:02.700
and unity.

02:09:03.600 --> 02:09:06.580
Then there's a section on punishment for
offenses against leadership.

02:09:07.260 --> 02:09:10.940
Title 2, Offenses Against Ecclesiastical
Authorities and the Freedom of the Church.

02:09:10.940 --> 02:09:15.060
Canon 1371, the following are to be
punished with a just penalty.

02:09:15.520 --> 02:09:20.580
Canon 1373, one who publicly either stirs
up hostilities or hatred among subjects

02:09:20.580 --> 02:09:23.840
against the apostolic see or against an
ordinary.

02:09:24.000 --> 02:09:28.620
An ordinary is a person who has been given
direct office, such as a pastor or

02:09:28.620 --> 02:09:32.880
whatever, on account of some act of
ecclesiastical power or ministry or

02:09:32.880 --> 02:09:37.300
incites subjects to disobey them,
is to be punished by an interdict or by

02:09:37.300 --> 02:09:38.640
other just penalties.

02:09:39.720 --> 02:09:44.560
Canon 1374, one who joins an association
which plots against the church is to be

02:09:44.560 --> 02:09:46.180
punished with a just penalty.

02:09:46.900 --> 02:09:50.160
One who promotes or moderates such an
association, however, is to be punished

02:09:50.160 --> 02:09:51.140
with an interdict.

02:09:52.500 --> 02:09:55.920
This is all canon law, Roman Catholic law.

02:09:55.940 --> 02:09:57.860
And then, listen to Canon 1404.

02:09:57.960 --> 02:10:01.980
Being followed by the Seventh Adventist
Church in 1991 to the letter.

02:10:02.060 --> 02:10:05.500
The question you have to ask is,
where does it say all these things in

02:10:05.500 --> 02:10:05.840
Scripture?

02:10:06.300 --> 02:10:07.940
It doesn't, or in the Spirit of Prophecy.

02:10:07.940 --> 02:10:13.020
If the Scripture is our norm for activity,
where are all of these other things coming

02:10:13.020 --> 02:10:13.060
from?

02:10:13.060 --> 02:10:15.300
It comes right out of Roman Catholic canon
law.

02:10:16.100 --> 02:10:17.940
Listen to this one, Canon 1404.

02:10:18.640 --> 02:10:21.140
The First See is judged by no one.

02:10:22.800 --> 02:10:23.680
That's like Robert Falkenberg.

02:10:23.680 --> 02:10:25.520
The Pope is judged by no one.

02:10:25.700 --> 02:10:27.940
The Adventist Pope is judged by no one.

02:10:28.320 --> 02:10:32.300
The manner of procedure in removing
pastors, Canon 1740, when the ministry of

02:10:32.300 --> 02:10:36.320
any pastor has become detrimental or at
least ineffective for any reason,

02:10:36.320 --> 02:10:40.760
he can be removed from the parish by the
diocesan bishop, Canon 1741.

02:10:40.920 --> 02:10:44.380
The reasons for which a pastor can be
legitimately removed from his parish are

02:10:44.380 --> 02:10:45.420
especially the following.

02:10:45.940 --> 02:10:51.260
Number one, a way of acting which is
gravely detrimental or disturbing to the

02:10:51.260 --> 02:10:52.120
ecclesial community.

02:10:52.480 --> 02:10:57.040
So if a pastor acts in such a way that the
rest of the ecclesiastical community is

02:10:57.040 --> 02:11:01.140
disturbed by him, that's justification for
removing him from his parish.

02:11:01.400 --> 02:11:04.600
Like showing all the pastors that have
been trained in hypnosis.

02:11:04.600 --> 02:11:05.580
Right, sure.

02:11:06.340 --> 02:11:07.480
Canon 1742.

02:11:09.160 --> 02:11:16.440
This canon requires the bishop to
paternally persuade the pastor to resign

02:11:16.440 --> 02:11:21.080
the pastor within a period of 15 days
after he has explained for validity the

02:11:21.080 --> 02:11:22.380
reason and arguments for removal.

02:11:22.980 --> 02:11:27.320
Canon 1744, number one, if the pastor
hasn't answered within the aforementioned

02:11:27.320 --> 02:11:31.380
time period, the bishop is to repeat the
invitation, extending the available time.

02:11:31.380 --> 02:11:35.180
Number two, if the bishop has the proof
that the pastor has received the second

02:11:35.180 --> 02:11:40.240
invitation, but hasn't responded,
and if the pastor refuses to sign,

02:11:40.320 --> 02:11:43.020
giving no reason, the bishop is to issue
the decree of removal.

02:11:44.380 --> 02:11:50.480
Canon 1745, if the pastor opposes the
cause alleged for removal and its reasons,

02:11:52.580 --> 02:11:57.420
the bishop is to, number one, invite the
pastor to organize his challenges to

02:11:57.420 --> 02:12:01.280
removal in a written report, having
inspected the acts, and also to offer

02:12:01.280 --> 02:12:03.220
proofs to the contrary, if he has any.

02:12:03.580 --> 02:12:06.940
Number two, consider the matter with the
same pastors in committee, that is.

02:12:07.320 --> 02:12:11.440
Number three, determine whether or not the
pastor must be removed and promptly issue

02:12:11.440 --> 02:12:13.100
a decree on the matter.

02:12:13.460 --> 02:12:17.400
Now there was a decree, I think you're
probably aware, John, that was issued

02:12:17.400 --> 02:12:20.540
regarding your disfellowshipping that went
out across the nation.

02:12:22.700 --> 02:12:23.580
Canon 1747.

02:12:23.580 --> 02:12:25.740
Okay, are you talking about telling them
about it?

02:12:25.840 --> 02:12:26.620
Yeah, telling them about it.

02:12:26.620 --> 02:12:30.900
Yeah, they sent a fax and a letter to
every conference president, and then the

02:12:30.900 --> 02:12:33.980
conference president sent it to the
pastors, and the pastors read it from the

02:12:33.980 --> 02:12:34.280
pulpit.

02:12:34.740 --> 02:12:39.280
Canon 1747, number one, the removed pastor
must abstain from exercising the office of

02:12:39.280 --> 02:12:43.560
pastor, vacate the rectory immediately,
hand over all that pertains to the parish,

02:12:43.620 --> 02:12:46.220
to the one to whom the bishop shall
entrust the parish.

02:12:47.100 --> 02:12:49.420
Well, those are just a few of the canon
laws.

02:12:49.820 --> 02:12:53.620
We're following the Roman Catholic canon
law to a T.

02:12:53.620 --> 02:12:59.320
Well, what's going to happen, John,
is in the New World Order, as Rome takes

02:12:59.320 --> 02:13:04.740
over, according to Revelation 17,
I believe we're going to see the complete

02:13:04.740 --> 02:13:08.760
takeover of canon law replacing our
Constitution.

02:13:08.940 --> 02:13:13.800
Ellen White says that every Republican and
Protestant principle of our Constitution

02:13:13.800 --> 02:13:15.080
will be repudiated.

02:13:15.160 --> 02:13:18.340
And you can see, according to this,
that anyone that speaks out against the

02:13:18.340 --> 02:13:24.540
Pope, or in any way ruffles the thinking
of the Roman Catholic Church, will be

02:13:24.540 --> 02:13:26.160
subject to penalty.

02:13:26.380 --> 02:13:29.500
As we are tabling this, this is the first
week in December, 1991.

02:13:29.760 --> 02:13:34.080
Have you seen in the news this week,
Bob, about how the Roman Catholic Church

02:13:34.080 --> 02:13:39.900
is getting so involved in this New World
Order, and how everybody is looking to

02:13:39.900 --> 02:13:43.520
Pope John Paul to have a major role in
this New World Order?

02:13:43.520 --> 02:13:44.860
I mean, even the news media.

02:13:45.320 --> 02:13:49.480
I mean, I have seen it in the newspapers
and on the newscast several times just

02:13:49.480 --> 02:13:53.960
this week, about the New World Order and
the part that the Roman papacy and Pope

02:13:53.960 --> 02:13:55.520
John Paul II is playing in this.

02:13:55.820 --> 02:13:56.040
Exactly.

02:13:56.380 --> 02:13:59.780
I mean, all the pieces of the puzzle are
fitting together.

02:13:59.880 --> 02:14:05.100
Even, John, the Genocide Treaty,
for example, and in our Constitution,

02:14:05.840 --> 02:14:12.680
under Article 6, Number 2, any treaties
that we make become the supreme law of the

02:14:12.680 --> 02:14:13.000
land.

02:14:13.520 --> 02:14:20.000
And this is designed to target anyone who
promulgates hatred against a class or

02:14:20.000 --> 02:14:21.880
religion or group of people.

02:14:22.000 --> 02:14:24.320
But hatred is in the eyes of the beholder.

02:14:24.980 --> 02:14:29.080
And just like the ancient Roman populace
called the Christians the haters of the

02:14:29.080 --> 02:14:33.700
human race, so the, quote, Christian
world, which is really an apostasy at the

02:14:33.700 --> 02:14:38.200
end, will regard the true faithful ones as
being haters of the human race,

02:14:38.240 --> 02:14:40.540
and they'll become subject under these
laws.

02:14:40.560 --> 02:14:44.780
But look, that goes all... I mean,
I cannot help but think of Elijah,

02:14:44.920 --> 02:14:48.040
when King Ahab said, Thou the trouble of
Israel.

02:14:48.400 --> 02:14:52.420
I mean, you know, the ones who have dared
to speak out against the apostasy of

02:14:52.420 --> 02:14:56.880
leadership have always been accused of
being the ones who bring all the trouble.

02:14:56.880 --> 02:15:02.460
And the haters of unity, and the haters of
peace, and the haters of the human race,

02:15:02.680 --> 02:15:05.920
and all the troubles have been blamed on
them because they dared to speak out

02:15:05.920 --> 02:15:07.000
against the apostasy.

02:15:07.320 --> 02:15:08.780
I mean, that's been going on for thousands
of years.

02:15:08.800 --> 02:15:10.600
It's going to happen on a massive scale,
John.

02:15:11.140 --> 02:15:13.760
But are our people ready, Bob?

02:15:14.300 --> 02:15:17.520
Are our historic Adventist people ready
for this stuff that's happening?

02:15:17.840 --> 02:15:19.560
I don't think any of us are ready,
John.

02:15:19.660 --> 02:15:22.120
But through the strength of the Lord,
the weak can become as they...

02:15:22.120 --> 02:15:24.720
I am fearful for our people.

02:15:25.240 --> 02:15:26.540
I'm fearful for our people.

02:15:26.840 --> 02:15:28.020
Our people are calling...

02:15:28.020 --> 02:15:33.380
You know, we have six nationwide watch
lines that used to be just good in the

02:15:33.380 --> 02:15:33.880
United States.

02:15:33.940 --> 02:15:38.760
Well, now we have 1-800-HIS-LOVE that's
good in all of Canada, you know,

02:15:38.960 --> 02:15:42.700
almost all of North America now,
1-800-HIS-LOVE.

02:15:42.960 --> 02:15:46.640
And our Adventist people are calling from
all over North America, Alaska,

02:15:46.780 --> 02:15:52.620
Hawaii, Canada, all the provinces,
and even Puerto Rico and the Virgin

02:15:52.620 --> 02:15:55.380
Islands, and calling us.

02:15:55.620 --> 02:15:57.740
And our staff are just on the phone.

02:15:58.220 --> 02:16:03.140
I mean, you know, just yesterday,
our switchboard operator was just

02:16:03.140 --> 02:16:05.420
absolutely exhausted by the time 5 o
'clock.

02:16:05.520 --> 02:16:07.680
She was just absolutely exhausted.

02:16:07.800 --> 02:16:08.420
Bless her heart.

02:16:08.480 --> 02:16:12.640
Linda just said, Pastor John, she says,
almost all six lines have been lit up all

02:16:12.640 --> 02:16:12.960
day.

02:16:13.380 --> 02:16:16.620
You know, it just seems that that is
almost all we do.

02:16:16.620 --> 02:16:22.760
And our Adventist people are just calling
and just pleading for help, and telling

02:16:22.760 --> 02:16:26.580
the things that their pastor has said,
stuff their pastor is putting up on the

02:16:26.580 --> 02:16:31.320
bulletin board about us, the tremendous
slander and rumor that is being

02:16:31.320 --> 02:16:34.640
promulgated from the conference to the
pastors, and the pastors to the church

02:16:34.640 --> 02:16:36.140
members about us.

02:16:36.440 --> 02:16:43.700
And it just seems that our people cannot
withstand the onslaught that is being

02:16:43.700 --> 02:16:45.540
brought against them by the leadership.

02:16:45.540 --> 02:16:50.420
And I'm fearful, Bob, I'm fearful for our
historic Adventist people.

02:16:50.620 --> 02:16:56.420
I really don't believe that they or any of
us are ready for this tremendous Catholic

02:16:56.420 --> 02:16:58.960
onslaught that is coming to us through our
leadership.

02:16:59.500 --> 02:17:00.060
Absolutely.

02:17:00.320 --> 02:17:04.220
You know, Alvin Toffler, the renowned
social thinker who wrote the book Power

02:17:04.220 --> 02:17:10.040
Shift, says in that, and I think it's a
word of wisdom, we see all these blips of

02:17:10.040 --> 02:17:16.540
information that come by, little scraps of
this and pieces of that, and it's too much

02:17:16.540 --> 02:17:17.920
to try to deal with every blip.

02:17:18.280 --> 02:17:22.380
But if we can look at the picture
strategically, and that's what we're

02:17:22.380 --> 02:17:25.120
wanting to do here today, what is the
strategy?

02:17:25.260 --> 02:17:27.140
What is God's strategy at the end of time?

02:17:27.340 --> 02:17:28.560
What is Babylon's strategy?

02:17:28.940 --> 02:17:33.060
And what we're doing is we're looking at
the sources of Babylon to see what their

02:17:33.060 --> 02:17:37.680
strategy is, and if it's in exactly with
what God told us the strategy would be.

02:17:38.100 --> 02:17:42.240
And when we can deal with it, and we can
cope with it much better when we see the

02:17:42.240 --> 02:17:46.560
whole picture, the strategy, and how all
these pieces all fit together,

02:17:46.820 --> 02:17:48.080
and what we're dealing with.

02:17:48.140 --> 02:17:49.520
We are in the last days, John.

02:17:49.520 --> 02:17:52.520
We are in Revelation 12-7 right now.

02:17:53.140 --> 02:17:59.160
Now this top Jesuit, Rayner, in his
strategy for the unification of the

02:17:59.160 --> 02:18:04.940
churches, says that actually the only
requirement is that these other churches

02:18:04.940 --> 02:18:08.880
not reject out of hand an explicit
doctrine of the Catholic Church as being

02:18:08.880 --> 02:18:13.700
irreconcilable with the fundamental
substance of their Christianity.

02:18:14.080 --> 02:18:19.140
The development of ecclesiastical
consciousness in all the churches has

02:18:19.140 --> 02:18:22.060
progressed to such an extent that this is
possible.

02:18:22.060 --> 02:18:27.060
Now that is a statement astoundingly like
the statement that Malachi Martin makes

02:18:27.060 --> 02:18:32.760
about how the Jesuits knew when the time
had come to strike in Eastern Europe

02:18:32.760 --> 02:18:37.920
because all of these bishops had been
prepared to accept their pope.

02:18:38.300 --> 02:18:43.640
And the Seventh-day Adventist people are
being prepared for this massive blow of

02:18:43.640 --> 02:18:44.880
Catholicism to bring us into...

02:18:44.880 --> 02:18:46.060
To receive the mark of the beast.

02:18:46.080 --> 02:18:47.300
To receive the mark of the beast.

02:18:47.640 --> 02:18:48.920
Bob, let me just ask you.

02:18:49.100 --> 02:18:51.220
I have several things written down here on
this pad.

02:18:51.220 --> 02:18:56.600
I want to talk about the traditions or the
techniques of modern warfare.

02:18:56.720 --> 02:19:01.680
And I want to also talk about how New Age
and mysticism plays into this complete

02:19:01.680 --> 02:19:07.300
strategy of preparing the Seventh-day
Adventist people for receiving the mark of

02:19:07.300 --> 02:19:07.700
the beast.

02:19:08.480 --> 02:19:08.760
Okay.

02:19:08.940 --> 02:19:13.300
John, could we hit that one on NLP
chronologically?

02:19:13.520 --> 02:19:13.780
Yes.

02:19:13.820 --> 02:19:15.340
I want to go through the rest of the 80s.

02:19:15.400 --> 02:19:16.660
I just want to make sure that we don't
miss it.

02:19:16.660 --> 02:19:21.020
If we're dipping a little too much into
the Jesuit strategy here, we can get back

02:19:21.020 --> 02:19:23.160
on with the chronological development in
the 80s.

02:19:23.180 --> 02:19:24.020
Would you like to do that?

02:19:24.300 --> 02:19:24.740
Maybe, Bob.

02:19:24.920 --> 02:19:25.180
Maybe.

02:19:25.300 --> 02:19:25.500
Okay.

02:19:25.680 --> 02:19:29.720
But maybe what I'm saying here,
maybe I just slipped something in on our

02:19:29.720 --> 02:19:31.960
Adventist people watching this that they
didn't realize.

02:19:32.320 --> 02:19:32.560
Okay.

02:19:33.080 --> 02:19:39.560
This is all heading towards God's
Seventh-day Adventist people receiving the

02:19:39.560 --> 02:19:40.200
mark of the beast.

02:19:40.360 --> 02:19:40.520
Exactly.

02:19:40.640 --> 02:19:43.840
I guess maybe this is the first time we
have come right out and said this.

02:19:43.840 --> 02:19:50.740
Folks, this all is a plan for Seventh-day
Adventists to receive the mark of the

02:19:50.740 --> 02:19:50.940
beast.

02:19:51.080 --> 02:19:52.180
That's where all this is heading.

02:19:52.500 --> 02:19:56.540
You know, we're laying the foundation here
and seeing this whole strategy.

02:19:57.020 --> 02:20:01.520
And the end result is that Seventh-day
Adventists receive the mark of the beast.

02:20:01.880 --> 02:20:03.020
That's where all this is heading.

02:20:03.020 --> 02:20:03.480
That's where the devil wants.

02:20:03.540 --> 02:20:04.640
That's where all this is heading.

02:20:05.080 --> 02:20:05.520
Exactly.

02:20:07.140 --> 02:20:13.080
Incidentally, the Jesuit also calls for...
he says that the churches now have become

02:20:13.080 --> 02:20:18.300
so liberal in their thinking that they're
prepared to slough off most of their

02:20:18.300 --> 02:20:19.020
doctrines.

02:20:19.560 --> 02:20:22.160
And this is one of the most effective
things in bringing about unity.

02:20:22.740 --> 02:20:26.320
Boredom, he says, is also a critical
element.

02:20:26.480 --> 02:20:30.280
And most people will be bored with most of
their doctrines and they'll push them

02:20:30.280 --> 02:20:30.660
aside.

02:20:31.260 --> 02:20:33.540
Now, that gives us a little taste anyway.

02:20:34.080 --> 02:20:37.280
There's loads more that could be said
about the Jesuit strategy.

02:20:37.920 --> 02:20:43.620
But in 1985, this book, The Church is
Charismatic, came out from the World

02:20:43.620 --> 02:20:44.540
Council of Churches.

02:20:46.120 --> 02:20:51.540
So, the Pentecostal movement, speaking in
tongues, is endorsed as the common

02:20:51.540 --> 02:20:53.540
denominator of the World Council of
Churches.

02:20:53.880 --> 02:20:54.440
Oh, yes.

02:20:55.080 --> 02:20:57.220
I just want to make sure our people
understand that.

02:20:58.100 --> 02:20:59.200
Page 1.

02:21:00.000 --> 02:21:04.160
The Charismatic Renewal can be seen as a
Christian variation of a worldwide

02:21:04.160 --> 02:21:05.700
religious revival.

02:21:06.320 --> 02:21:07.280
Page 21.

02:21:07.960 --> 02:21:13.020
The Charismatic Renewal has the potential
to extend the contemporary ecumenical

02:21:13.020 --> 02:21:17.980
movement to communities within Christendom
which so far have kept aloof from the

02:21:17.980 --> 02:21:18.980
development of ecumenism.

02:21:19.020 --> 02:21:20.980
Now, this is 1985 when this comes out.

02:21:21.820 --> 02:21:27.080
They come right out in public and they say
that now the Charismatic Renewal has the

02:21:27.080 --> 02:21:30.680
potential for penetrating churches that
the ecumenical movement has not yet been

02:21:30.680 --> 02:21:31.300
able to penetrate.

02:21:31.640 --> 02:21:36.120
You see, when the Jesuits move in on a
church, they have this whole hierarchical

02:21:36.120 --> 02:21:39.120
approach of working from the top down.

02:21:39.120 --> 02:21:45.260
But it is also necessary, according to
Rayner, to gain for each church entity,

02:21:45.700 --> 02:21:51.160
each leadership of each church,
to gain a majority of its members to be in

02:21:51.160 --> 02:21:52.820
support of the drive for unity.

02:21:53.040 --> 02:21:57.120
You just said something I want to go back
to and I want to make sure that our

02:21:57.120 --> 02:22:03.200
Adventist people understand this,
that the Jesuit plan of attack and the

02:22:03.200 --> 02:22:10.800
method for infiltrating any denomination
is to start at the top and come down.

02:22:11.160 --> 02:22:16.660
Not start with the laity and come up,
but to infiltrate the leadership and then

02:22:16.660 --> 02:22:17.880
to let it trickle down.

02:22:17.980 --> 02:22:21.960
That is very important because that is
exactly what we see happening in the

02:22:21.960 --> 02:22:22.720
Seventh-day Adventist Church.

02:22:22.820 --> 02:22:25.700
Would you like a case in point?

02:22:25.700 --> 02:22:28.700
If you just happen to have one,
I'd love to hear it.

02:22:28.960 --> 02:22:30.460
I have another book here.

02:22:32.820 --> 02:22:35.480
Now listen, do I need to start getting
some of these books off, Bob?

02:22:35.580 --> 02:22:37.020
You need some more room?

02:22:37.120 --> 02:22:40.000
Some of them I'm still, unless you think
there's going to be too many here.

02:22:40.000 --> 02:22:42.340
As you're bringing books over,
I'll just start loading them off on the

02:22:42.340 --> 02:22:42.820
floor here.

02:22:42.920 --> 02:22:44.380
So you just keep bringing those books
over.

02:22:44.540 --> 02:22:45.480
This is by B.G.

02:22:45.960 --> 02:22:46.360
Wilkinson.

02:22:46.520 --> 02:22:49.180
Used to be president of the Washington
Missionary.

02:22:49.400 --> 02:22:51.060
Amen, a historic Adventist.

02:22:51.060 --> 02:22:52.840
And he uncovered a Jesuit.

02:22:53.040 --> 02:22:55.260
Most historic Adventists know the story.

02:22:56.200 --> 02:23:01.420
And incidentally, it's been just
reconfirmed by the man who was at that

02:23:01.420 --> 02:23:04.060
time academic dean of Washington
Missionary College.

02:23:04.080 --> 02:23:07.120
When he was president of Washington
Missionary College, what was this,

02:23:07.120 --> 02:23:07.840
in the 40s?

02:23:08.600 --> 02:23:09.980
Yeah, 30s and 40s.

02:23:09.980 --> 02:23:14.160
So he uncovered a Jesuit on staff,
a professor on staff then.

02:23:14.240 --> 02:23:14.760
That's right.

02:23:14.860 --> 02:23:15.640
Bless his heart.

02:23:16.360 --> 02:23:22.960
And in the early 40s, a friend of my
mother told me on the telephone of her

02:23:22.960 --> 02:23:23.620
experience.

02:23:24.580 --> 02:23:26.880
She and her husband lived in the married
student housing.

02:23:27.880 --> 02:23:32.960
And incidentally, we have a tape called
The Witnesses where she tells this story.

02:23:33.620 --> 02:23:38.680
Gallimberti, a Roman Catholic priest,
was baptized into our church, professed

02:23:38.680 --> 02:23:41.600
conversion, got into the theological
studies.

02:23:41.600 --> 02:23:45.480
But every night he had to, at 9 o'clock,
report on the telephone.

02:23:46.200 --> 02:23:50.260
And her husband understood Spanish and
understood what he was saying.

02:23:50.500 --> 02:23:52.080
Ultimately, he was uncovered.

02:23:53.000 --> 02:23:55.240
There's a whole string of them that we
could tell about.

02:23:55.400 --> 02:24:00.480
We have had some experiences right here in
this ministry of Roman Catholics that

02:24:00.480 --> 02:24:04.500
converted to Adventism in their adult
life.

02:24:04.500 --> 02:24:09.140
And I will be very honest with you,
it will be a long time before I put a

02:24:09.140 --> 02:24:13.160
converted Roman Catholic that has been
born and raised in the Catholic system and

02:24:13.160 --> 02:24:16.040
educated in the Catholic system and
converted to Adventism in their adult

02:24:16.040 --> 02:24:16.400
life.

02:24:16.600 --> 02:24:20.920
It will be a long time before I put them
into a leadership position in this church

02:24:20.920 --> 02:24:21.760
and ministry again.

02:24:22.240 --> 02:24:22.920
Listen to this.

02:24:22.980 --> 02:24:28.260
This is from Dr. De Sanctis, who for many
years was a priest at Rome, professor of

02:24:28.260 --> 02:24:33.360
theology, official theological censor of
the Inquisition, and who later became a

02:24:33.360 --> 02:24:33.760
Protestant.

02:24:33.760 --> 02:24:37.780
He tells of his interview with the
secretary of the French Father Assistant

02:24:37.780 --> 02:24:38.940
of the Jesuit Order.

02:24:39.540 --> 02:24:40.340
Here's what he said.

02:24:40.720 --> 02:24:43.860
They were having trouble infiltrating the
English church.

02:24:44.060 --> 02:24:48.340
Quote, the English clergy were formally
too much attached to their articles of

02:24:48.340 --> 02:24:49.620
faith to be shaken from them.

02:24:50.920 --> 02:24:55.380
And he said you might have employed in
vain all the machines set in motion by

02:24:55.380 --> 02:24:59.640
Boussuet and the Jansenists of France to
reunite them to the Romish church.

02:25:00.000 --> 02:25:02.780
And so the Jesuits of England tried
another plan.

02:25:02.780 --> 02:25:08.380
This was to demonstrate from history and
ecclesiastical antiquity the legitimacy of

02:25:08.380 --> 02:25:10.200
the usages of the English church.

02:25:10.700 --> 02:25:15.260
Whence through the exertions of the
Jesuits concealed among its clergy might

02:25:15.260 --> 02:25:18.240
arise a studious attention to Christian
antiquity.

02:25:18.600 --> 02:25:20.640
Jesuits concealed among its clergy.

02:25:21.160 --> 02:25:27.000
Tell me something, Bob, do you believe
that there would be any attempt for the

02:25:27.000 --> 02:25:29.580
Jesuits to infiltrate the independent
ministries?

02:25:31.020 --> 02:25:32.820
Would that sound logical to you,
Bob?

02:25:32.820 --> 02:25:34.580
It would be the most logical thing in the
world.

02:25:35.400 --> 02:25:40.720
It would be the most logical thing because
what they want to do is to silence any

02:25:40.720 --> 02:25:42.060
voice raised against Rome.

02:25:42.640 --> 02:25:47.500
In fact, the Catholic Campaign for
America, which was just launched a few

02:25:47.500 --> 02:25:52.800
weeks ago, had as one of its primary
objectives to silence anyone speaking out

02:25:52.800 --> 02:25:53.600
against Rome.

02:25:55.500 --> 02:26:01.880
So, back to this church's charismatic
document here.

02:26:02.700 --> 02:26:07.360
In 1985, the World Council of Churches
says now we can use the charismatic

02:26:07.360 --> 02:26:11.740
movement to penetrate churches that have
not yet succumbed to ecumenism.

02:26:12.060 --> 02:26:13.840
Next page, page 22.

02:26:14.480 --> 02:26:17.500
We venture to express two hopes for the
emerging dialogue.

02:26:17.760 --> 02:26:22.440
Firstly, and this is the critical one,
we hope and pray that the charismatic

02:26:22.440 --> 02:26:28.620
renewal will not be too hastily
classified, labeled, and thus isolated.

02:26:28.940 --> 02:26:32.480
John, when this whole thing was getting
started of the celebration movement with

02:26:32.480 --> 02:26:36.680
its Pentecostal dimensions in our church,
do you remember what the leadership said?

02:26:37.240 --> 02:26:38.260
Let's wait and see.

02:26:38.440 --> 02:26:39.360
Oh, that's what they're still saying.

02:26:39.360 --> 02:26:40.420
Let's not classify it.

02:26:40.420 --> 02:26:41.500
Let's not classify it too soon.

02:26:41.500 --> 02:26:43.640
This has been their pat cliché from the
very beginning.

02:26:43.740 --> 02:26:44.500
Let's just wait and see.

02:26:44.640 --> 02:26:45.180
Wait and see.

02:26:45.300 --> 02:26:46.200
It fits exactly.

02:26:46.200 --> 02:26:49.020
If it's of God, it'll prosper.

02:26:49.240 --> 02:26:51.240
But if it's not, well, we don't have to
worry about it.

02:26:51.500 --> 02:26:52.420
God will take care of it.

02:26:52.620 --> 02:26:54.080
Let's just wait and see.

02:26:54.360 --> 02:26:57.500
And this has been what every one of our
church leadership has said about the

02:26:57.500 --> 02:26:58.280
celebration movement.

02:26:58.420 --> 02:26:59.660
Let's just wait and see.

02:26:59.840 --> 02:27:02.200
Does that have anything to do with the
strategy plan of Catholicism?

02:27:02.900 --> 02:27:03.460
Well, that's it.

02:27:03.680 --> 02:27:06.700
It's like those statements were right out
of the script here.

02:27:06.860 --> 02:27:11.040
It's exactly what the World Council of
Churches said should not be done.

02:27:11.140 --> 02:27:12.800
Let's not classify it too closely.

02:27:12.820 --> 02:27:13.060
Wait and see.

02:27:13.360 --> 02:27:14.560
Let's not isolate it.

02:27:14.880 --> 02:27:15.820
Let's not label it.

02:27:15.820 --> 02:27:17.560
Now, next page.

02:27:18.680 --> 02:27:23.560
Divisions are not His, that is the Holy
Spirit's doing, but due to human sin.

02:27:24.840 --> 02:27:25.960
What did Christ say?

02:27:26.100 --> 02:27:28.000
I came not to bring peace, but a sword.

02:27:28.300 --> 02:27:31.920
A man shall be divided against the members
of his own household.

02:27:32.840 --> 02:27:38.920
Well, at any rate, that tells us a little
bit in the mid-80s what was brewing behind

02:27:38.920 --> 02:27:39.260
the scenes.

02:27:39.340 --> 02:27:42.500
We didn't yet have the full impact of
celebration at that time.

02:27:42.500 --> 02:27:48.020
But it was the plans that were developing
in the ecumenical movement.

02:27:48.440 --> 02:27:52.260
I want to make sure that our people
understand what you're endeavoring to do

02:27:52.260 --> 02:27:52.420
here.

02:27:52.460 --> 02:27:55.740
From what I can see, it started in the 70s
or 60s?

02:27:55.740 --> 02:27:56.200
It started in the 60s.

02:27:56.400 --> 02:27:56.920
60s?

02:27:57.320 --> 02:27:57.840
50s?

02:27:58.120 --> 02:28:04.020
The theological base of the New Theology
is Roman Catholicism, original sin,

02:28:04.740 --> 02:28:06.120
and the pre-fall nature of Christ.

02:28:06.180 --> 02:28:07.280
That's Roman Catholic doctrine.

02:28:07.360 --> 02:28:08.420
Okay, if you...

02:28:08.420 --> 02:28:10.360
Salvation in sin is Roman Catholic
doctrine.

02:28:10.360 --> 02:28:13.440
First we said 70s, then 60s, then 50s.

02:28:14.220 --> 02:28:21.840
40s, 1946 is when the nature of Christ was
taken out of Bible readings for the home

02:28:21.840 --> 02:28:22.260
circle.

02:28:22.420 --> 02:28:26.960
When that disappeared about Him coming in
our fallen nature, the 1946 edition of

02:28:26.960 --> 02:28:28.420
Bible readings for the home circle.

02:28:28.700 --> 02:28:31.780
Then the Barnhouse and Martin Eternity
magazine thing in the 50s.

02:28:32.140 --> 02:28:33.660
And questions on doctrines.

02:28:34.360 --> 02:28:37.560
So the church has been shifted over to a
New Theological base?

02:28:37.560 --> 02:28:43.960
But we can go back to the 30s and the 20s
where we first adopted accreditation for

02:28:43.960 --> 02:28:44.680
our colleges.

02:28:45.280 --> 02:28:46.980
You know, so how... we can just keep going
back.

02:28:47.300 --> 02:28:50.440
1909, a Jesuit professor was kicked out of
Mount Vernon College.

02:28:50.460 --> 02:28:52.220
You know, we can just keep going back.

02:28:52.660 --> 02:28:54.360
But let's go forward now.

02:28:54.600 --> 02:28:56.920
You have got us up to now the 1980s.

02:28:56.920 --> 02:28:57.560
Mid-1980s.

02:28:58.260 --> 02:28:58.400
Okay.

02:28:58.580 --> 02:28:58.980
1985.

02:28:58.980 --> 02:29:03.460
At the November 1985 meeting of the
Society for Pentecostal Studies,

02:29:03.840 --> 02:29:08.980
Dr. Vincent Sinan outlined the
coordination of Pentecostals with their

02:29:08.980 --> 02:29:10.400
Roman Catholic counterparts.

02:29:11.000 --> 02:29:14.840
At the meeting, the Roman Catholic priest
Peter Hawken was named president of the

02:29:14.840 --> 02:29:16.840
Society for Pentecostal Studies.

02:29:17.080 --> 02:29:21.700
So now they are laying a battle plan,
a blueprint, coordination.

02:29:21.700 --> 02:29:26.480
That's all documented in this book,
The Pied Piper of the Pentecostal

02:29:26.480 --> 02:29:29.820
Movement, The Spiritual Power of the New
World Order.

02:29:29.920 --> 02:29:30.600
Who printed that?

02:29:31.060 --> 02:29:35.020
This is a Bible Baptist minister who
printed this.

02:29:35.700 --> 02:29:39.140
You see, people from the outside,
people outside the Seventh-day Adventist

02:29:39.140 --> 02:29:42.000
Church realize what is going on.

02:29:42.080 --> 02:29:46.580
This is why in my very first celebration
video, and I showed articles from

02:29:46.580 --> 02:29:56.540
Christianity Today, and these quotes from
The Salvation Army Magazine, and these

02:29:56.540 --> 02:30:00.140
other Christian churches that are seeing
what's going on in the Adventist Church,

02:30:00.260 --> 02:30:02.740
and The Pied Piper, that's exactly what's
going on.

02:30:03.340 --> 02:30:08.320
Our people are just following our
leadership, having no idea what is going

02:30:08.320 --> 02:30:08.680
on.

02:30:09.220 --> 02:30:12.780
And Christians in these other churches
outside of the Seventh-day Adventist

02:30:12.780 --> 02:30:17.200
Church are looking and saying,
look what's going on in Adventism,

02:30:17.200 --> 02:30:20.200
and our people, it's The Pied Piper
following our leadership.

02:30:20.400 --> 02:30:21.360
We have no idea.

02:30:21.680 --> 02:30:27.100
And when I show our Adventist people what
other churches realize, and what we are so

02:30:27.100 --> 02:30:31.400
blind to because of our blind faith and
trust in our leadership, our people are

02:30:31.400 --> 02:30:35.280
just amazed and shocked that all this
stuff has been going on, and we never knew

02:30:35.280 --> 02:30:35.840
about it.

02:30:36.840 --> 02:30:43.060
1986, John, the Shepherding Cell Group
movement moves into the mainstream of the

02:30:43.060 --> 02:30:43.860
charismatic movement.

02:30:43.960 --> 02:30:49.220
Now, in the mid-1970s, Pat Robertson
condemned the Shepherding Cell Group

02:30:49.220 --> 02:30:49.560
movement.

02:30:49.920 --> 02:30:55.120
Incidentally, let me get another book
here, John, because the roots of this are

02:30:55.120 --> 02:30:55.640
very...

02:30:55.640 --> 02:30:57.120
I'm going to start taking some of these
off.

02:30:57.140 --> 02:30:57.860
Very significant.

02:30:58.120 --> 02:31:00.920
Don't take any that are... yeah,
take the ones that we've already dealt

02:31:00.920 --> 02:31:01.060
with.

02:31:01.060 --> 02:31:03.020
They'll be on the floor if you need them,
Bob.

02:31:03.020 --> 02:31:06.220
You've got to have some room here before
they all start falling off and we have a

02:31:06.220 --> 02:31:08.540
big, mighty crash here.

02:31:08.920 --> 02:31:10.700
They'll all be here if you need them.

02:31:10.880 --> 02:31:12.660
Where did the Cell Group come from?

02:31:13.200 --> 02:31:18.720
Now, this is one of the definitive work on
brainwashing by Robert J.

02:31:19.240 --> 02:31:24.400
Lifton, prominent scholar, Thought Reform
and the Psychology of Totalism,

02:31:24.460 --> 02:31:26.140
a study of brainwashing in China.

02:31:26.260 --> 02:31:27.160
Now, what is totalism?

02:31:28.480 --> 02:31:28.960
Totalitarianism.

02:31:29.020 --> 02:31:29.340
I see.

02:31:29.580 --> 02:31:31.800
So, where you totally take control.

02:31:31.800 --> 02:31:34.580
Yes, like communism, you see.

02:31:35.200 --> 02:31:41.040
And in this book, he talks of how Cell
Groups were used in the Communist Chinese

02:31:41.040 --> 02:31:48.660
Revolution and how the Cell Groups were so
effective in dealing with the Westerners

02:31:48.660 --> 02:31:49.700
that they captured.

02:31:50.040 --> 02:31:51.640
From Cell to Celebration.

02:31:51.780 --> 02:31:52.960
Does this tie in with that?

02:31:52.960 --> 02:31:55.280
Well, let me give you a little history of
the Cell Group, John.

02:31:55.400 --> 02:31:56.900
Absolutely it ties in.

02:31:56.900 --> 02:32:04.080
Now, it was very effective, you see,
in changing the thinking of dissidents,

02:32:04.720 --> 02:32:06.080
Cell Groups.

02:32:06.080 --> 02:32:10.400
I want to make sure you just don't slip
through this stuff.

02:32:11.220 --> 02:32:14.160
Changing the thinking of dissidents.

02:32:14.280 --> 02:32:14.740
Absolutely.

02:32:14.880 --> 02:32:20.340
That is exactly what our periodicals are
trying to do today.

02:32:20.800 --> 02:32:23.960
This is exactly what the Perth Declaration
is doing.

02:32:24.220 --> 02:32:26.100
This is exactly what our leadership is
trying to do.

02:32:26.100 --> 02:32:30.420
Propaganda warfare against the historic
Adventists in the Seventh Adventist

02:32:30.420 --> 02:32:30.640
Church.

02:32:31.040 --> 02:32:34.920
Trying to twist, get them around to their
way of thinking.

02:32:35.040 --> 02:32:36.740
That's the whole purpose of NLP.

02:32:37.280 --> 02:32:39.760
That is the reason that the Seventh
Adventist Church, more than any other

02:32:39.760 --> 02:32:43.920
denomination on Earth, has embraced
neuro-linguistic programming.

02:32:44.240 --> 02:32:48.300
It's because there are all these,
quote, dissidents in the Seventh Adventist

02:32:48.300 --> 02:32:53.640
Church and the leadership has to somehow
deal with them and get them over to their

02:32:53.640 --> 02:32:54.480
way of thinking.

02:32:54.480 --> 02:32:56.000
So how do you do that?

02:32:56.460 --> 02:32:57.320
You look at history.

02:32:57.340 --> 02:32:58.960
In NLP, you hypnotize them.

02:32:59.020 --> 02:33:00.720
Not only that, but the small group.

02:33:00.960 --> 02:33:01.840
The cell group.

02:33:02.040 --> 02:33:02.380
Absolutely.

02:33:02.880 --> 02:33:08.880
And it ties right in with the hypnotic
process of changing a whole set group of

02:33:08.880 --> 02:33:09.720
people's thinking.

02:33:10.100 --> 02:33:13.920
This is considered to be one of the most
profound books on this subject.

02:33:14.500 --> 02:33:20.700
And there are case examples in here of how
cell groups were used in brainwashing.

02:33:20.700 --> 02:33:24.520
Now, what's interesting, John,
is that the shepherding cell group

02:33:24.520 --> 02:33:27.540
movement was adopted by Paul Yonggi Cho.

02:33:27.680 --> 02:33:29.400
Dr. Paul Yonggi Cho, incidentally.

02:33:29.520 --> 02:33:31.800
Is he the pastor of the largest church in
the world?

02:33:32.000 --> 02:33:32.380
Largest church.

02:33:32.800 --> 02:33:33.840
50,000.

02:33:34.000 --> 02:33:34.720
South Korea.

02:33:36.500 --> 02:33:37.380
500,000.

02:33:39.600 --> 02:33:40.380
Half a million.

02:33:41.500 --> 02:33:42.920
I thought it was 50,000.

02:33:42.940 --> 02:33:43.720
Half a million.

02:33:44.340 --> 02:33:45.440
He's got a church of 500,000.

02:33:45.440 --> 02:33:47.020
A few years ago it was a quarter of a
million.

02:33:47.960 --> 02:33:51.140
That's why, don't you want a 500,000
member church, John?

02:33:51.900 --> 02:33:53.580
I don't know how they'd all fit in here.

02:33:54.600 --> 02:33:55.900
We're packed now.

02:33:56.360 --> 02:34:00.380
Look here, the third item in the
bibliography.

02:34:00.960 --> 02:34:04.180
Dr. Paul Yonggi Cho, successful home cell
groups.

02:34:04.540 --> 02:34:11.160
So, over in South Korea, he adopted the
cell group concept and built his church up

02:34:11.160 --> 02:34:12.700
from 600 to half a million.

02:34:13.560 --> 02:34:17.740
And it, of course, captured the attention
of the charismatic churches around the

02:34:17.740 --> 02:34:18.080
world.

02:34:18.880 --> 02:34:22.760
He is one of the most prominent speakers
and promoters of this.

02:34:22.840 --> 02:34:26.760
Now, when this movement came into America,
it had many abuses.

02:34:27.060 --> 02:34:32.920
It was a very totalitarian type of dynamic
operating in these small groups.

02:34:33.000 --> 02:34:34.560
They'd have a leader, an assistant leader.

02:34:34.660 --> 02:34:38.100
They were requiring people to produce
their checkbooks to show where they were

02:34:38.100 --> 02:34:39.100
paying their tithe.

02:34:39.260 --> 02:34:40.540
I've heard of that!

02:34:41.840 --> 02:34:43.820
This is exactly what we see going on.

02:34:44.040 --> 02:34:50.060
When I go speaking, John, I had a group
from a church come up to me and they said,

02:34:50.720 --> 02:34:52.360
We have a celebration church.

02:34:52.740 --> 02:34:54.840
We have cell groups in our church.

02:34:55.000 --> 02:34:59.720
And in our cell groups, every person is to
expose what's in their inner heart.

02:35:00.140 --> 02:35:05.440
We are each one to write that down and
turn in the report to the pastor.

02:35:05.440 --> 02:35:10.800
You see, NLP and small cell groups are
being used also as the Adventist

02:35:10.800 --> 02:35:11.440
confessional.

02:35:12.220 --> 02:35:13.620
I had a woman call me up.

02:35:13.660 --> 02:35:14.980
She said, I just had a divorce.

02:35:15.360 --> 02:35:16.920
My husband married another woman.

02:35:17.180 --> 02:35:18.900
The pastor took me in for counseling.

02:35:19.020 --> 02:35:20.120
He's had the labs.

02:35:21.120 --> 02:35:26.340
And I told him all kinds of things that I
felt I shouldn't have afterward.

02:35:26.420 --> 02:35:28.480
He asked me to even write this stuff out.

02:35:28.640 --> 02:35:29.460
I wrote it out.

02:35:29.520 --> 02:35:30.220
I turned it in to him.

02:35:30.300 --> 02:35:31.080
I was apprehensive.

02:35:31.180 --> 02:35:31.900
I asked for it back.

02:35:31.960 --> 02:35:33.660
He said he had thrown it away.

02:35:36.140 --> 02:35:41.800
There's case after case of this that is
coming to our attention.

02:35:42.100 --> 02:35:45.380
And in the Roman Catholic Church,
on Saturday afternoons now, they have

02:35:45.380 --> 02:35:46.980
reconciliation services.

02:35:47.600 --> 02:35:51.640
If a person doesn't like the old style
confessional, they can go to

02:35:51.640 --> 02:35:52.880
reconciliation services.

02:35:53.040 --> 02:35:56.680
They all sit in a circle, like a
sensitivity group or a small group,

02:35:56.880 --> 02:35:58.980
and everyone confesses to everyone else.

02:35:58.980 --> 02:36:03.960
This reminds me of what so many of our
Seventh-day Adventist churches have now.

02:36:04.420 --> 02:36:08.880
They have a traditional service,
and they also have a celebration service.

02:36:10.640 --> 02:36:13.860
Whatever way you like it, that's the way
they have it.

02:36:13.980 --> 02:36:18.340
They have two services, a traditional
service for the traditionalist,

02:36:18.360 --> 02:36:20.980
and a celebration service for the
celebrationist.

02:36:21.460 --> 02:36:23.600
And you can have it any way that you like
it.

02:36:23.660 --> 02:36:26.900
And one of the concepts, of course,
in the celebration is everything that

02:36:26.900 --> 02:36:27.780
we've studied thus far.

02:36:27.780 --> 02:36:31.240
But is this thing that takes the place of
the Catholic confessional?

02:36:31.480 --> 02:36:31.740
Yes.

02:36:31.940 --> 02:36:33.500
Oh, and why the confessional?

02:36:34.060 --> 02:36:38.180
That is the most powerful
information-gathering tool the Roman

02:36:38.180 --> 02:36:39.760
Catholic Church has had for centuries.

02:36:39.880 --> 02:36:41.820
Why do we want an ambassador at the
Vatican?

02:36:42.080 --> 02:36:46.000
Because they have the best
intelligence-gathering network in the

02:36:46.000 --> 02:36:46.340
world.

02:36:46.980 --> 02:36:52.440
And the confessional, historically,
has been used to gain information and thus

02:36:52.440 --> 02:36:55.580
control over nations, over individuals.

02:36:55.580 --> 02:36:58.680
You find out what's going on in their
inner heart.

02:36:59.120 --> 02:37:03.180
But, you see, because of these abuses,
Pat Robertson spoke out against it in the

02:37:03.180 --> 02:37:03.900
early days.

02:37:04.360 --> 02:37:12.180
But then, by the mid-1980s, 1986,
suddenly Pat Robertson welcomes them with

02:37:12.180 --> 02:37:13.020
open arms.

02:37:13.420 --> 02:37:19.280
They all make up, and the cell group
movement moves into center stage in the

02:37:19.280 --> 02:37:20.860
charismatic movement.

02:37:20.860 --> 02:37:26.200
And it forms the basic unit and tool in
the promulgation of celebration churches.

02:37:26.540 --> 02:37:31.680
Now, new theology pastors have been using
this for years in America.

02:37:32.240 --> 02:37:34.640
I can think of one right now that came
over from Australia.

02:37:35.400 --> 02:37:38.520
And cell group was the basis of his
celebration church.

02:37:38.900 --> 02:37:44.840
The Coalition on Revival, COR,
which is pushing for a totalitarian

02:37:44.840 --> 02:37:45.840
Christian America.

02:37:45.840 --> 02:37:50.660
That's a fundamentalist, charismatic
movement that crosses all kinds of

02:37:50.660 --> 02:37:51.040
boundaries.

02:37:51.160 --> 02:37:55.200
It's a powerful behind-the-scenes element
in politics.

02:37:55.820 --> 02:38:01.040
It is pushing for a Christian America in
which every person's conscience will be

02:38:01.040 --> 02:38:02.520
subject to the person above them.

02:38:03.000 --> 02:38:08.360
They call for all pastors to restructure
their congregations into home cell groups.

02:38:08.580 --> 02:38:09.400
Home cell groups.

02:38:09.720 --> 02:38:11.760
Have you heard that term any place?

02:38:11.820 --> 02:38:14.500
It's a revolutionary technique,
John.

02:38:14.500 --> 02:38:16.320
It's a revolutionary technique.

02:38:16.760 --> 02:38:20.660
In fact, the Reconstructionists,
who are high in the levels of the

02:38:20.660 --> 02:38:26.900
Coalition on Revival, say that Gary North,
who is the second in command in

02:38:26.900 --> 02:38:32.360
Reconstructionism, says that Rush Dooney,
who is the top man, is the Marx and I'm

02:38:32.360 --> 02:38:34.260
trying to be the Engels of this movement.

02:38:34.580 --> 02:38:35.960
They're obvious revolutionaries.

02:38:35.960 --> 02:38:40.900
I just think that this home cell group
concept that is advertised by the Oregon

02:38:40.900 --> 02:38:45.200
Conference and all of our periodicals,
and they're now going around all over the

02:38:45.200 --> 02:38:49.040
country promoting this and teaching it to
all the pastors and to all the

02:38:49.040 --> 02:38:53.480
conferences, is just a wonderful new
method of evangelism for the Seventh-day

02:38:53.480 --> 02:38:54.140
Adventist Church.

02:38:54.300 --> 02:38:59.100
And it came not only out of Catholicism,
but has come out of strategies for

02:38:59.100 --> 02:39:02.400
thousands of years to brainwash people.

02:39:02.400 --> 02:39:05.660
Communist Chinese movement, basis in
modern times.

02:39:06.240 --> 02:39:11.980
And now we come down also in 1986,
Wilson Ewen, the author of this book,

02:39:12.060 --> 02:39:17.520
he's a pastor, he warns, The developing
story of ecumenical unity continues at a

02:39:17.520 --> 02:39:23.020
staggering pace, and when the Vatican's
dream of a corporate and global religious

02:39:23.020 --> 02:39:28.200
complex with the Pope as head is shortly
realized, Pentecostalism will stand

02:39:28.200 --> 02:39:33.420
accused before a holy God of being the
chief instrument in having brought this to

02:39:33.420 --> 02:39:33.820
pass.

02:39:34.660 --> 02:39:40.560
Pentecostalism is the thread that runs
through all of this endeavoring of the

02:39:40.560 --> 02:39:41.720
Roman Catholic to bring the churches
back...

02:39:41.720 --> 02:39:44.060
It's the chief tool to bring all the
churches...

02:39:44.060 --> 02:39:44.160
It's the chief tool...

02:39:44.160 --> 02:39:45.800
And to create the New World Order.

02:39:45.920 --> 02:39:48.220
It's the spiritual power of the New World
Order.

02:39:48.220 --> 02:39:51.580
One of the two things that we are seeing
being manifested recently in the

02:39:51.580 --> 02:39:55.380
Seventh-day Adventist Church, just in the
last several years, Pentecostalism and

02:39:55.380 --> 02:39:56.300
Catholicism.

02:39:56.660 --> 02:40:00.520
Everywhere we turn in the Seventh-day
Adventist Church, we are seeing either

02:40:00.520 --> 02:40:03.280
Catholicism or Pentecostalism.

02:40:03.420 --> 02:40:07.100
You know, through the music, through the
artwork, through our periodicals,

02:40:07.300 --> 02:40:10.460
through the stuff coming from our church,
the two main thrusts.

02:40:10.460 --> 02:40:12.620
Those are the two things that have joined
hands.

02:40:12.980 --> 02:40:16.400
It's Catholicism and Pentecostalism.

02:40:16.580 --> 02:40:17.520
And apostate Protestantism.

02:40:17.540 --> 02:40:18.540
And apostate Protestantism.

02:40:19.000 --> 02:40:21.540
Which is the three unclean spirits like
Saul.

02:40:21.800 --> 02:40:21.940
That's right.

02:40:22.060 --> 02:40:23.800
I mean, it's prophecy before our eyes.

02:40:23.960 --> 02:40:24.020
That's right.

02:40:24.120 --> 02:40:25.800
Why are our people so blind?

02:40:25.920 --> 02:40:27.740
Why can't we see this stuff, Bob?

02:40:28.400 --> 02:40:31.600
Well, my people are destroyed for lack of
knowledge, John.

02:40:31.940 --> 02:40:34.440
It's so clear, as I'm sitting here talking
to you.

02:40:34.700 --> 02:40:38.160
It's so clear what's going on in our
church.

02:40:38.240 --> 02:40:38.460
That's right.

02:40:38.460 --> 02:40:40.540
This is an orchestrated attempt.

02:40:40.840 --> 02:40:47.240
Now, I am not and neither are you saying
that all of our leadership understand

02:40:47.240 --> 02:40:48.520
what's going on.

02:40:48.880 --> 02:40:53.760
But it only takes even one person in a
movement to channel them all in that

02:40:53.760 --> 02:40:54.060
direction.

02:40:54.060 --> 02:40:54.300
That's right.

02:40:54.480 --> 02:41:01.580
But they are being guided by a strategy,
by a script that many of them don't even

02:41:01.580 --> 02:41:02.820
know that they're following.

02:41:02.820 --> 02:41:10.560
But you see, on the basis of submission to
one superior and to the church as being

02:41:10.560 --> 02:41:13.740
the final authority, they fit right into
the plan.

02:41:14.240 --> 02:41:15.060
Right into the plan.

02:41:15.340 --> 02:41:17.700
You see, all you have to do is bring in
this concept.

02:41:17.800 --> 02:41:21.240
And incidentally, John, this is a Jesuit
concept.

02:41:21.360 --> 02:41:22.160
Let me get a book for you.

02:41:22.840 --> 02:41:24.660
You just keep bringing the books over,
though.

02:41:24.720 --> 02:41:27.160
You just keep bringing us through time.

02:41:27.260 --> 02:41:28.600
Now, we're in the late 80s now?

02:41:29.300 --> 02:41:29.700
1986.

02:41:30.680 --> 02:41:31.580
Okay, the strategy.

02:41:31.580 --> 02:41:35.840
In the Spiritual Exercises of St.
Ignatius, John, we have a section

02:41:35.840 --> 02:41:38.400
entitled, The Rules for Thinking with the
Church.

02:41:39.860 --> 02:41:41.440
And here is what we read.

02:41:41.700 --> 02:41:46.260
In order to have the proper attitude of
mind in the church militant, we should

02:41:46.260 --> 02:41:47.620
observe the following rules.

02:41:47.620 --> 02:41:53.780
Putting aside all private judgment,
we should keep our minds prepared and

02:41:53.780 --> 02:41:58.840
ready to obey promptly and in all things
the true spouse of Christ our Lord,

02:41:59.220 --> 02:42:01.600
our Holy Mother, the Hierarchical Church.

02:42:01.620 --> 02:42:07.680
Is that part of the Jesuit oath that you
are totally dead and you just do whatever

02:42:07.680 --> 02:42:10.680
you are told to do by the church?

02:42:12.820 --> 02:42:13.340
Exactly.

02:42:13.340 --> 02:42:18.540
It's not only part of the Jesuit oath,
but it is involved in the training of the

02:42:18.540 --> 02:42:19.460
Spiritual Exercises.

02:42:19.540 --> 02:42:20.260
That's what this is.

02:42:20.560 --> 02:42:25.560
This is the manual which the initiates
into the Jesuit order go through for four

02:42:25.560 --> 02:42:26.880
weeks, for 30 days.

02:42:27.460 --> 02:42:30.420
They are led through these Spiritual
Exercises, which now have been introduced

02:42:30.420 --> 02:42:34.180
into our ministry and are being used in
our churches now.

02:42:34.180 --> 02:42:41.140
For the purpose of creating a mentality of
what is called by them, Cadaver Obedience.

02:42:41.180 --> 02:42:42.100
Cadaver Obedience.

02:42:42.180 --> 02:42:43.620
That's part of the Jesuit oath.

02:42:43.820 --> 02:42:44.260
That's it.

02:42:45.020 --> 02:42:46.240
Now here is number 13.

02:42:46.500 --> 02:42:51.920
If we wish to be sure that we are right in
all things, we should always be ready to

02:42:51.920 --> 02:42:53.100
accept this principle.

02:42:53.700 --> 02:42:58.620
I will believe that the white that I see
is black, if the Hierarchical Church so

02:42:58.620 --> 02:42:59.380
defines it.

02:42:59.380 --> 02:43:04.720
For I believe that between the Bridegroom
Christ our Lord and the Bride,

02:43:04.800 --> 02:43:09.140
His Church, there is but one Spirit which
governs and directs us for the salvation

02:43:09.140 --> 02:43:10.040
of our souls.

02:43:10.440 --> 02:43:14.380
For the same Spirit and Lord who gave us
the Ten Commandments guides and governs

02:43:14.380 --> 02:43:15.820
our Holy Mother Church.

02:43:15.940 --> 02:43:20.720
So you see, there is the concept of
automatic identity between Christ and the

02:43:20.720 --> 02:43:21.040
Church.

02:43:21.480 --> 02:43:26.100
Therefore, you have to be prepared to
believe that the white that you see is

02:43:26.100 --> 02:43:28.760
black, if the Church says that white is
black.

02:43:28.760 --> 02:43:30.060
The Church is going through.

02:43:30.400 --> 02:43:32.340
She is the object of God's supreme regard.

02:43:32.960 --> 02:43:35.240
And the Conference is the Church.

02:43:35.680 --> 02:43:37.120
Therefore, stay with the Conference.

02:43:37.520 --> 02:43:39.760
Do what we say and you will be saved.

02:43:40.020 --> 02:43:45.080
It's this cadaver mentality that our
Adventist people have that the Conference

02:43:45.080 --> 02:43:46.080
is the Church.

02:43:46.340 --> 02:43:48.740
Therefore, you stay with the Conference
and you are going to Heaven.

02:43:48.740 --> 02:43:49.920
God help us.

02:43:49.980 --> 02:43:56.220
It's right out of the Jesuit plan of
giving total mind control, total

02:43:56.220 --> 02:44:00.960
totalitarianism to the Church.

02:44:01.520 --> 02:44:01.800
That's right.

02:44:02.220 --> 02:44:06.280
And the spiritual exercises are used to
accomplish that purpose.

02:44:06.600 --> 02:44:08.180
I believe that's probably why we're...

02:44:08.180 --> 02:44:10.740
It's the brainwashing of the Adventist
people.

02:44:11.080 --> 02:44:11.420
That's right.

02:44:12.080 --> 02:44:17.360
In fact, not only the Adventist people,
but historically Heinrich Himmler used the

02:44:17.360 --> 02:44:20.960
spiritual exercises to form the Nazi SS.

02:44:21.200 --> 02:44:22.100
One million men.

02:44:22.620 --> 02:44:26.140
He had a special work for them to do and
part of it was running death camps.

02:44:27.200 --> 02:44:34.000
You gave a whole issue, or maybe even
more, of your freedom's ring to how this

02:44:34.000 --> 02:44:37.140
all worked in Nazi Germany.

02:44:37.520 --> 02:44:37.940
That's right.

02:44:38.720 --> 02:44:39.860
You want to just touch on that?

02:44:40.140 --> 02:44:40.480
Sure.

02:44:40.860 --> 02:44:45.380
How was all this used with Nazi Germany
and with Hitler and what did Catholicism

02:44:45.380 --> 02:44:48.840
have to do with that and how does that tie
in with present-day Adventism?

02:44:49.420 --> 02:44:50.940
Can we hit that chronologically?

02:44:51.200 --> 02:44:52.020
We're almost to it, John.

02:44:52.060 --> 02:44:54.840
You know, I'm just thinking of all of
these things and I don't want to leave

02:44:54.840 --> 02:44:55.280
anything out.

02:44:55.340 --> 02:44:56.520
I don't want to leave anything out.

02:44:56.620 --> 02:44:57.840
That's why I'm trying...

02:44:57.840 --> 02:45:00.600
You keep saying those things and I'll keep
trying to move us chronologically.

02:45:00.600 --> 02:45:01.620
I'm going to write it down here.

02:45:01.840 --> 02:45:02.120
Okay.

02:45:02.740 --> 02:45:08.840
Now, I want to give you another statement,
John, from this pastor who wrote this

02:45:08.840 --> 02:45:11.120
book, The Pied Piper of the Pentecostal
Movement.

02:45:11.240 --> 02:45:16.100
For twelve centuries, papal Rome has
planned and worked to impose church rule

02:45:16.100 --> 02:45:16.760
over mankind.

02:45:17.500 --> 02:45:20.980
Pressure has come through navies,
armies, including the Nazi regime,

02:45:21.380 --> 02:45:22.320
torture and the stake.

02:45:22.400 --> 02:45:23.140
All have failed.

02:45:23.480 --> 02:45:29.380
Then in 1963, Pope John XXIII put in
motion a Vatican II council device for

02:45:29.380 --> 02:45:30.620
world religious unity.

02:45:31.040 --> 02:45:36.460
It was a vital step in a final thrust for
success, the strategy of ecumenism.

02:45:36.460 --> 02:45:41.940
And the Holy See awaits with open arms and
complete satisfaction as the Pentecostal

02:45:41.940 --> 02:45:46.400
Movement hastens that impending hour of
disastrous triumph and vicious control.

02:45:46.840 --> 02:45:49.340
And so now we are in the late 1980s.

02:45:49.660 --> 02:45:53.920
The Celebration Movement is taking
hundreds of SDA churches by storm with the

02:45:53.920 --> 02:45:54.540
speed of lightning.

02:45:54.660 --> 02:45:59.900
And then in 1989, the spiritual exercises
of the Jesuit order are introduced into

02:45:59.900 --> 02:46:04.520
the SDA ministry and congregations and
they spread across the land.

02:46:04.520 --> 02:46:08.240
They're being taught from the West Coast
to the East Coast, Canada, Andrews.

02:46:09.060 --> 02:46:11.360
It's called cataphatic prayer imaging.

02:46:11.500 --> 02:46:15.460
It's a modern term for it, John,
and it's catching on hundreds and

02:46:15.460 --> 02:46:16.140
thousands of miles.

02:46:16.220 --> 02:46:20.880
I want to bring you some more books here,
John, on this subject that you just asked

02:46:20.880 --> 02:46:21.340
me about.

02:46:22.780 --> 02:46:27.460
And that is the connection there with Nazi
Germany.

02:46:30.120 --> 02:46:34.060
Oh, by the way, you know that in-gathering
brochure I was telling you about?

02:46:34.140 --> 02:46:35.640
Terry Ross just handed it to me.

02:46:36.220 --> 02:46:40.300
And maybe we should, you know,
I'll show it on screen as we were talking

02:46:40.300 --> 02:46:41.360
about it there.

02:46:41.480 --> 02:46:44.520
But it's just amazing how these three wavy
lines go right through it.

02:46:44.800 --> 02:46:49.000
And it even has one here of the fellow
worshiping the sun with the three wavy

02:46:49.000 --> 02:46:50.840
lines and it going into one.

02:46:51.020 --> 02:46:54.140
Our people should be looking at this new
in-gathering brochure.

02:46:54.220 --> 02:46:55.800
It ties right in with what you're saying
here.

02:46:55.800 --> 02:46:57.600
Okay, our authorized Bible vindicated.

02:46:57.740 --> 02:46:58.700
I'm going to lay it by Wilkinson.

02:46:58.720 --> 02:46:59.680
I'm laying that down here.

02:47:00.340 --> 02:47:02.540
And if you need any of this, just holler
and I'll get it for you.

02:47:02.860 --> 02:47:04.580
We've only got so much room on this little
table.

02:47:10.020 --> 02:47:12.040
Okay, what are you going to show us now?

02:47:12.140 --> 02:47:15.620
All right, John, we want to look now a
little more closely at the spiritual

02:47:15.620 --> 02:47:18.420
exercises because they're coming into our
church now.

02:47:19.120 --> 02:47:23.240
I listened to the tape by Bill Loveless
last summer.

02:47:23.560 --> 02:47:24.740
Yes, the one you had on your tape.

02:47:24.760 --> 02:47:26.300
Yeah, my first NLP tape.

02:47:26.300 --> 02:47:30.940
And as I listened to it, I had the
earphones on and I had this book,

02:47:31.400 --> 02:47:34.520
The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius,
in my lap.

02:47:34.700 --> 02:47:38.700
And I was thumbing from one page to the
next, following along as he was leading

02:47:38.700 --> 02:47:40.580
them in the spiritual exercises.

02:47:40.900 --> 02:47:46.580
So in our July issue of Freedom's Ring,
we laid it out one half of a page against

02:47:46.580 --> 02:47:47.360
the other half.

02:47:47.360 --> 02:47:50.460
On one side, the spiritual exercises
quotes.

02:47:50.640 --> 02:47:55.360
On the other side, Bill Loveless' quotes
in that workers' meeting where he led the

02:47:55.360 --> 02:47:56.620
workers in the spiritual exercises.

02:47:57.160 --> 02:47:57.580
Pastors.

02:47:57.980 --> 02:47:58.580
Pastors.

02:47:59.320 --> 02:48:03.200
And what is behind the spiritual
exercises?

02:48:03.340 --> 02:48:09.580
Well, Ignatius Loyola developed these
exercises to combat the Protestant

02:48:09.580 --> 02:48:10.360
Reformation.

02:48:11.180 --> 02:48:16.780
And in Munich, in Bavaria, in the
Counter-Reformation, the Jesuits moved

02:48:16.780 --> 02:48:20.420
into that area and they held that area
against the Protestant Reformation.

02:48:21.000 --> 02:48:24.220
They taught the spiritual exercises to the
common people.

02:48:24.600 --> 02:48:28.440
Incidentally, the Roman Catholic Church is
trying to accomplish that very thing

02:48:28.440 --> 02:48:28.900
today.

02:48:29.240 --> 02:48:34.340
As I was going in to take care of my
father when he was passing away from

02:48:34.340 --> 02:48:36.580
cancer, he was in the hospital.

02:48:37.140 --> 02:48:42.080
And I turned on the radio at 3 o'clock in
the morning and an NPR station was

02:48:42.080 --> 02:48:46.640
carrying a BBC broadcast by a Roman
Catholic priest advocating the spiritual

02:48:46.640 --> 02:48:48.540
exercises for the common man.

02:48:48.840 --> 02:48:50.120
And that's what we are being taught.

02:48:50.380 --> 02:48:50.860
Unconditional love.

02:48:50.880 --> 02:48:53.360
That's what we are being taught in the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.

02:48:53.520 --> 02:48:57.100
Now, what happens in the spiritual
exercises of St. Ignatius?

02:48:57.780 --> 02:49:00.040
It is mysticism, first of all.

02:49:00.160 --> 02:49:03.760
St. Ignatius' profound precepts of
mystical theology.

02:49:03.760 --> 02:49:11.200
It is a form of mysticism which brings
together the mystical approach of

02:49:11.200 --> 02:49:14.000
Catholicism in the medieval times.

02:49:14.480 --> 02:49:16.480
Along with Ignatius' own discoveries.

02:49:16.640 --> 02:49:17.480
He wrote a journal.

02:49:17.680 --> 02:49:20.100
Journal entries, which we are seeing
everywhere all of a sudden.

02:49:20.300 --> 02:49:21.920
It's in Becoming a Master Student.

02:49:22.340 --> 02:49:24.660
It's being utilized by Bill Loveless.

02:49:25.420 --> 02:49:25.640
Everyone is writing a journal.

02:49:25.640 --> 02:49:26.460
Everyone is writing a journal.

02:49:27.340 --> 02:49:31.820
It's called for here in the spiritual
exercises of Ignatius.

02:49:31.820 --> 02:49:35.340
But basically what happens, the man
entering the Jesuit order goes through

02:49:35.340 --> 02:49:42.180
this 30-day program in which he learns to
surrender his conscience to his superior.

02:49:42.900 --> 02:49:45.100
Now, this very thing is happening within
our own church.

02:49:45.320 --> 02:49:50.720
And I know the story of a historic
Adventist church school teacher who stood

02:49:50.720 --> 02:49:55.760
up in behalf of the truth and ran into
opposition from the conference office.

02:49:55.760 --> 02:50:00.800
And the conference president told him that
if you're having trouble accepting my

02:50:00.800 --> 02:50:05.320
position on this, then you're going to
have to surrender your conscience and

02:50:05.320 --> 02:50:06.620
accept my conscience.

02:50:06.840 --> 02:50:10.340
That's exactly what the spiritual
exercises are designed to do.

02:50:10.780 --> 02:50:15.800
And the avenue by which they accomplish
that is they use the imagination to

02:50:15.800 --> 02:50:16.820
control the will.

02:50:17.360 --> 02:50:21.540
Now, Ellen White says that a surrendered
will is to control the imagination.

02:50:21.880 --> 02:50:23.740
So you see they've turned that around
backwards.

02:50:23.740 --> 02:50:29.840
And so to control the will, they use the
imagination to accomplish that.

02:50:29.860 --> 02:50:31.240
Imagine that you are by the sea.

02:50:31.480 --> 02:50:33.880
Imagine, paint the color of the sky in.

02:50:33.980 --> 02:50:35.460
Imagine that you see Jesus.

02:50:35.660 --> 02:50:37.680
Imagine, you know, what is he wearing?

02:50:37.740 --> 02:50:38.440
What are you wearing?

02:50:38.580 --> 02:50:39.020
Where are you?

02:50:39.180 --> 02:50:39.840
Imagine yourself.

02:50:40.200 --> 02:50:42.680
You know, we went through all of that with
this Bill Loveless thing.

02:50:42.720 --> 02:50:43.700
And that's what's being taught.

02:50:43.920 --> 02:50:48.100
It's even being taught to our youth now in
the December 30, 1992 devotional.

02:50:48.240 --> 02:50:49.140
Oh, okay.

02:50:49.580 --> 02:50:50.200
Bring that up.

02:50:50.240 --> 02:50:51.620
Let's show the people right now.

02:50:51.620 --> 02:50:53.020
Now, I want to tell you something.

02:50:53.320 --> 02:50:57.240
That this is what we have had so many
phone calls from college students in our

02:50:57.240 --> 02:50:57.700
colleges.

02:50:57.900 --> 02:51:00.720
And they say this stuff is being taught
all over the place in our youth

02:51:00.720 --> 02:51:02.900
departments, in our periodicals.

02:51:02.980 --> 02:51:05.880
Not just Bill Loveless in a one-time
incident with our ministers.

02:51:06.300 --> 02:51:10.860
This is going through our church like
wildfire, just as Celebration did.

02:51:11.060 --> 02:51:16.060
All of these concepts that came out of
Catholicism that you're showing to us

02:51:16.060 --> 02:51:16.500
today.

02:51:17.260 --> 02:51:17.480
Right.

02:51:17.480 --> 02:51:25.620
Now, at the Nuremberg trials, Walter
Schellenberg, and this is quoted in The

02:51:25.620 --> 02:51:31.260
Nazis and the Occult, Walter Schellenberg
told of how Heinrich Himmler, who was in

02:51:31.260 --> 02:51:36.160
charge of the Nazi SS, had the best
library in all of Europe on the Jesuits.

02:51:36.760 --> 02:51:38.460
He had an uncle who was a Jesuit.

02:51:38.700 --> 02:51:42.920
And he would spend hours every evening
perusing in that library.

02:51:42.920 --> 02:51:47.600
And he built the whole Nazi SS up based on
the spiritual exercises.

02:51:47.720 --> 02:51:53.420
He wanted men who had no conscientious
scruples personally that would block them

02:51:53.420 --> 02:51:54.640
from obeying orders.

02:51:54.880 --> 02:52:01.260
And so he accomplished the cadaver
obedience he was after by inculcating them

02:52:01.260 --> 02:52:03.960
in the spiritual exercises of St.
Ignatius.

02:52:03.960 --> 02:52:14.980
Is it not only possible but probable that
the reason Celebration, NLP, all of these

02:52:14.980 --> 02:52:19.380
techniques are being used on our people
and have been brought into the Seventh-day

02:52:19.380 --> 02:52:24.620
Adventist Church is to give Adventist
people a cadaver obedience to the

02:52:24.620 --> 02:52:25.020
conference?

02:52:25.440 --> 02:52:25.900
Absolutely.

02:52:26.280 --> 02:52:28.320
Not only the conference, but to the papacy
ultimately.

02:52:28.680 --> 02:52:29.820
Ultimately to the papacy.

02:52:29.840 --> 02:52:32.300
Ultimately to the papacy and ultimately to
the devil himself.

02:52:32.300 --> 02:52:35.120
To where they will one day receive the
mark of the beast.

02:52:35.340 --> 02:52:36.060
Conscience is silenced.

02:52:36.340 --> 02:52:36.640
Bottom line.

02:52:37.020 --> 02:52:39.520
Not only that, but they can also become
the worst persecutors.

02:52:39.600 --> 02:52:41.280
Because look at what the Nazi SS did.

02:52:41.300 --> 02:52:42.760
Isn't that what our prophet tells us?

02:52:42.900 --> 02:52:44.020
That's how they do that.

02:52:44.220 --> 02:52:48.480
That's how our former Adventists become
our worst persecutors is because they have

02:52:48.480 --> 02:52:49.940
succumbed to this type of thing.

02:52:49.940 --> 02:52:58.360
John, in Heinrich Himmler's experience,
he not only used Western mystical,

02:52:58.740 --> 02:53:05.880
quote, Christian or papal mysticism,
Vatican-type mysticism, but he also was

02:53:05.880 --> 02:53:07.120
into Eastern mysticism.

02:53:07.880 --> 02:53:13.000
He told his doctor that he never made a
move without the Bhagavad Gita.

02:53:13.680 --> 02:53:14.420
What is that?

02:53:14.900 --> 02:53:18.200
Bhagavad Gita is the Hindu Bible.

02:53:18.400 --> 02:53:19.180
Ah, okay.

02:53:19.180 --> 02:53:24.260
And they like to say that it's older than
our Christian Bible.

02:53:24.980 --> 02:53:27.740
At any rate, he was deeply... he read the
Rig Vedas.

02:53:28.040 --> 02:53:31.660
He read all of this Eastern writings.

02:53:31.900 --> 02:53:32.700
The Eastern writings.

02:53:32.740 --> 02:53:36.260
He was into Eastern mysticism as well as
Western mysticism.

02:53:36.940 --> 02:53:39.240
And Bill Lovelace basically is a blend of
the two.

02:53:39.340 --> 02:53:43.000
Now, Bill Lovelace at the beginning of his
talk mentioned Morton Kelsey.

02:53:43.280 --> 02:53:48.160
Ellen White's writing was just like that
of Morton Kelsey, as you recall.

02:53:48.160 --> 02:53:52.140
And here's Morton Kelsey's book,
Companions on the Inner Way.

02:53:52.640 --> 02:53:56.380
I'd like to just bring you a couple of
statements from this book.

02:53:56.840 --> 02:53:57.900
A little of Kelsey's thought.

02:53:59.240 --> 02:54:04.020
This point of view gave rise to a rich and
lively devotional practice which animated

02:54:04.020 --> 02:54:06.200
the early church and continued through
medieval times.

02:54:06.760 --> 02:54:10.360
There are a few more magnificent spiritual
writings than those of Bernard of

02:54:10.360 --> 02:54:13.480
Clairvaux, Mother Julian, a number of
others here.

02:54:13.480 --> 02:54:18.480
It is just these magnificent writings that
Paulist Press is bringing back into

02:54:18.480 --> 02:54:19.040
publication.

02:54:19.620 --> 02:54:23.440
The actual religious practice of the
Middle Ages as it took place within the

02:54:23.440 --> 02:54:28.340
monastic communities was gathered together
and systematized in classic form by

02:54:28.340 --> 02:54:31.440
Ignatius of Loyola in his spiritual
exercises.

02:54:31.860 --> 02:54:36.620
So, you see, what Bill Lovelace says is,
you know, we're not getting into Eastern

02:54:36.620 --> 02:54:37.740
mysticism here.

02:54:37.780 --> 02:54:40.740
We're into Western mysticism.

02:54:40.740 --> 02:54:43.260
And that's the spiritual exercises.

02:54:43.840 --> 02:54:46.380
But actually it's a blend of the two as
you listen to it.

02:54:46.880 --> 02:54:50.540
This is what is known as the cataphatic
tradition of prayer.

02:54:51.080 --> 02:54:55.520
Prayer that uses images in devotional
practice to mediate the divine.

02:54:55.920 --> 02:55:01.920
Now, incidentally, this practice of
creating your own image of Christ in your

02:55:01.920 --> 02:55:03.040
imagination...

02:55:03.040 --> 02:55:03.800
Explain cataphatic.

02:55:06.260 --> 02:55:10.100
Cataphatic is the term that's used for the
spiritual exercises.

02:55:10.100 --> 02:55:11.520
Okay, that's the term...

02:55:11.520 --> 02:55:15.920
That's a modern term for putting across
the spiritual exercises.

02:55:16.440 --> 02:55:21.240
The idea that you can create the divine,
create the creator, is very much like the

02:55:21.240 --> 02:55:22.120
Eucharist, you see.

02:55:22.340 --> 02:55:24.240
The creature creates the creator.

02:55:24.660 --> 02:55:26.040
This is also divination.

02:55:27.300 --> 02:55:30.920
You divine, you divine, you conjure up
your God, you see.

02:55:31.260 --> 02:55:32.940
And then you make your God do what you
want.

02:55:32.940 --> 02:55:35.080
Oh, and that's exactly what Bill Lovelace
did with those pastors.

02:55:35.120 --> 02:55:36.440
He conjured up Jesus.

02:55:36.440 --> 02:55:39.520
Yeah, you conjure up your God,
you have him come through the door,

02:55:39.640 --> 02:55:41.440
you have him sit down in the chair you
want him to sit.

02:55:41.520 --> 02:55:43.420
You say the things and he says the things
back.

02:55:43.420 --> 02:55:46.340
Oh, it reminds me of the spiritualist
medium, the Witch of Indore, how they

02:55:46.340 --> 02:55:46.960
conjure up...

02:55:46.960 --> 02:55:47.720
It's witchcraft.

02:55:48.000 --> 02:55:48.540
It's witchcraft.

02:55:49.200 --> 02:55:50.640
Exactly, that's what it is.

02:55:52.000 --> 02:55:55.440
Here's another statement from Morton
Kelsey.

02:55:56.940 --> 02:56:01.820
The spiritual exercises of Ignatius of
Loyola gathered up and systematized with

02:56:01.820 --> 02:56:05.980
genius the religious practices that have
been normative for several centuries in

02:56:05.980 --> 02:56:07.280
Christian devotional practice.

02:56:07.340 --> 02:56:11.380
So he is a big promoter of the spiritual
exercises, you see.

02:56:11.740 --> 02:56:15.080
And that's the one that Bill Lovelace
compared to Ellen White.

02:56:15.240 --> 02:56:19.380
Right, now the other one that he compared
her to, he compared her to Buddhist

02:56:19.380 --> 02:56:22.700
writings, but he also compared her to
William Johnston.

02:56:25.020 --> 02:56:27.260
Sophia University in Tokyo.

02:56:27.480 --> 02:56:33.000
Alright, now here I have the cloud of
unknowing with an introduction by William

02:56:33.000 --> 02:56:33.740
Johnston.

02:56:34.000 --> 02:56:35.400
This is the same William Johnston.

02:56:35.840 --> 02:56:36.360
The Jesuit?

02:56:36.440 --> 02:56:41.880
He is a Jesuit professor at Sophia
University in Tokyo.

02:56:42.200 --> 02:56:46.560
Now in order for William Lovelace to know
about these, he has to be reading their

02:56:46.560 --> 02:56:48.540
books, he has to be reading their works.

02:56:48.540 --> 02:56:54.420
How can you read and absorb all this stuff
without becoming influenced by it?

02:56:54.540 --> 02:56:56.040
This is what worries me about you.

02:56:56.160 --> 02:57:00.180
You're doing all this research and I'm
just praying, and I know that you have

02:57:00.180 --> 02:57:05.960
too, that God will protect you in your
research from being in the slightest bit

02:57:05.960 --> 02:57:08.220
caught up.

02:57:09.400 --> 02:57:13.840
I'm really praying for you as you delve
into all this stuff, Bob, that God will

02:57:13.840 --> 02:57:16.640
protect you from being caught up in it.

02:57:16.640 --> 02:57:17.660
I'll tell you the worst thing.

02:57:18.260 --> 02:57:22.260
The worst thing that I ever had to
research was NLP.

02:57:23.020 --> 02:57:25.980
That is the most evil thing that I have
ever seen.

02:57:26.080 --> 02:57:27.620
John, I prayed continually.

02:57:28.100 --> 02:57:29.240
I had to break away.

02:57:29.420 --> 02:57:31.340
I had to take prayer walks.

02:57:31.680 --> 02:57:34.700
It was the most evil thing that I have
ever seen.

02:57:34.700 --> 02:57:36.860
I just talked to Constance Cumby on the
phone.

02:57:37.580 --> 02:57:41.900
Her and I talk a lot, and she called me
just this past week.

02:57:42.420 --> 02:57:49.320
In fact, we're thinking about having
Constance Cumby come down for an interview

02:57:49.320 --> 02:57:51.480
on video here in just a couple of weeks.

02:57:51.980 --> 02:57:55.260
But in her book, Hidden Secrets,
Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow,

02:57:55.760 --> 02:57:59.980
she talks about the way that New Age is
coming to the Christian church.

02:57:59.980 --> 02:58:04.620
And when I told her how that we were doing
this research on Neuro-Linguistic

02:58:04.620 --> 02:58:07.840
Programming, she says, Oh,
Neuro-Linguistic, NLP, she says,

02:58:07.860 --> 02:58:09.200
that is just evil.

02:58:09.460 --> 02:58:13.820
She says, that is one of the most evil of
all the New Age techniques that's coming

02:58:13.820 --> 02:58:15.480
to the Seventh-day Adventist church.

02:58:15.820 --> 02:58:21.440
So, you know, when you realize how evil,
and I'm going to be interviewing Terry

02:58:21.440 --> 02:58:23.960
Ross in just a few moments here at the end
of my interview with you.

02:58:23.960 --> 02:58:29.040
Terry Ross has found some startling
things, new things about the evilness of

02:58:29.040 --> 02:58:30.100
NLP.

02:58:30.820 --> 02:58:36.560
And to realize that we are the church that
is foremost, the Seventh-day Adventist

02:58:36.560 --> 02:58:44.280
church is the foremost promoter of NLP of
all the other church denominations.

02:58:45.240 --> 02:58:48.560
Seventh-day Adventist promotes NLP more
than any other church.

02:58:48.560 --> 02:58:53.600
John Savage is, of the 40 churches he is
working with, the first and foremost one

02:58:53.600 --> 02:58:54.700
is Seventh-day Adventism.

02:58:55.020 --> 02:59:01.560
And even non-Adventists are telling us
that it is the most evil of all the New

02:59:01.560 --> 02:59:03.800
Age techniques that has crept into the
Christian church.

02:59:04.480 --> 02:59:06.560
Listen to this from The Great Controversy.

02:59:06.580 --> 02:59:11.280
None are in greater danger from the
influence of evil spirits than those who,

02:59:11.400 --> 02:59:14.540
notwithstanding the direct and ample
testimony of the Scriptures, deny the

02:59:14.540 --> 02:59:16.520
existence and agency of the devil and his
angels.

02:59:16.520 --> 02:59:22.260
So long as we are ignorant of their wiles,
they have almost inconceivable advantage.

02:59:22.960 --> 02:59:26.360
Many give heed to their suggestions while
they suppose themselves to be following

02:59:26.360 --> 02:59:28.600
the dictates of their own wisdom.

02:59:29.040 --> 02:59:33.840
There is nothing that the great deceiver
fears so much as that we shall become

02:59:33.840 --> 02:59:34.900
acquainted with his devices.

02:59:35.000 --> 02:59:39.520
So my purpose in studying this,
of course, is to reveal Satan's devices.

02:59:40.040 --> 02:59:44.580
Because without that, people are walking
into it not knowing what it is.

02:59:45.020 --> 02:59:48.980
We are going to ask God to continue to
protect you as you do this research.

02:59:49.100 --> 02:59:51.660
Now, you've brought us up to a time frame
up to the late 80s.

02:59:51.720 --> 02:59:52.580
Are we into the 90s yet?

02:59:53.320 --> 02:59:58.860
Yes, we're right on the brink of the 90s
now with the coming in of the spiritual

02:59:58.860 --> 02:59:59.700
exercises.

03:00:00.680 --> 03:00:03.120
And William, I wanted to say something
else about William Johnston.

03:00:03.240 --> 03:00:04.680
He's a Teilhardian Jesuit.

03:00:05.440 --> 03:00:12.220
Now, the most influential figure in the
New Age movement is Pierre Teilhard de

03:00:12.220 --> 03:00:13.280
Chardin, a Jesuit.

03:00:13.280 --> 03:00:14.860
He's a renegade Jesuit.

03:00:15.620 --> 03:00:20.920
But he is the one who believes that when
the consciousness of humanity is

03:00:20.920 --> 03:00:28.280
completely united and all of humanity's
consciousness level is heightened to a

03:00:28.280 --> 03:00:31.460
certain point, then the Omega Christ will
appear.

03:00:32.020 --> 03:00:33.280
The Omega Christ?

03:00:33.280 --> 03:00:34.700
The Omega Christ.

03:00:35.640 --> 03:00:43.400
Yes, now this is very interesting that he,
who is a Jesuit, has had great influence

03:00:43.400 --> 03:00:48.340
among Roman Catholic theologians and the
Jesuit order with his ideas about the

03:00:48.340 --> 03:00:49.560
Omega Christ.

03:00:50.040 --> 03:00:54.040
And he believes that this will be the real
incarnation of the Christ.

03:00:54.060 --> 03:00:56.420
So we're talking about Satan impersonating
the Christ.

03:00:56.420 --> 03:00:56.860
Exactly.

03:00:58.260 --> 03:00:59.520
As the Omega Christ.

03:00:59.920 --> 03:01:01.000
And that's only the beginning of it,
John.

03:01:01.000 --> 03:01:03.920
And, of course, we know about the Omega
apostasy in the Seventh-day Advent Church,

03:01:03.960 --> 03:01:05.080
a most startling nature.

03:01:06.940 --> 03:01:13.280
John, this book here, The Coming of the
Cosmic Christ by Matthew Fox, is

03:01:13.280 --> 03:01:15.220
absolutely startling.

03:01:15.340 --> 03:01:17.560
Now, this man is a Dominican scholar.

03:01:17.920 --> 03:01:20.100
The Dominicans ran the Inquisition,
incidentally.

03:01:20.380 --> 03:01:22.880
Both of these men are renegades,
I will say that.

03:01:22.880 --> 03:01:29.100
But in this book, The Coming of the Cosmic
Christ, he describes how there has to be

03:01:29.100 --> 03:01:32.080
worldwide liturgical change in
celebration.

03:01:32.880 --> 03:01:32.920
Yes.

03:01:33.280 --> 03:01:40.360
Celebration is a fundamental thing all the
way through, but he gets deeply into

03:01:40.360 --> 03:01:41.240
mysticism.

03:01:41.780 --> 03:01:47.340
And he says we have to have deep mysticism
in order to have deep ecumenism.

03:01:47.340 --> 03:01:51.940
And I was reading along in here,
and he got to the point where he was

03:01:51.940 --> 03:01:58.560
telling about the primary example of deep
mysticism taking place.

03:01:59.360 --> 03:02:04.120
And he cites an experience that took place
just recently in North Carolina,

03:02:04.500 --> 03:02:06.580
a summer workshop on creation
spirituality.

03:02:07.120 --> 03:02:11.060
Now, the Cosmic Christ, incidentally,
is a pantheistic Christ.

03:02:11.740 --> 03:02:16.720
Pierre Killard de Chardin said that the
Cosmic Christ is neither human nor divine.

03:02:17.380 --> 03:02:18.800
He is cosmic.

03:02:19.320 --> 03:02:25.140
Well, that's what we saw in The Coming of
the Cosmic King in the ministry magazine

03:02:25.140 --> 03:02:26.100
that we...

03:02:26.100 --> 03:02:28.600
That painting parallels what you read in
here.

03:02:29.260 --> 03:02:35.600
And in this deepest example of deep
mysticism, bringing about deep ecumenical

03:02:35.600 --> 03:02:41.160
realignment, there were, at this creation
spirituality workshop in North Carolina,

03:02:41.360 --> 03:02:45.220
not only Roman Catholics and Quakers,
Anglicans and Methodists, but Southern

03:02:45.220 --> 03:02:47.740
Baptists and Seventh-day Adventists.

03:02:48.440 --> 03:02:49.780
And it says right there in that book.

03:02:50.200 --> 03:02:51.480
Yes, I was just reading it along.

03:02:51.560 --> 03:02:55.680
You see, this is the thing that our
leadership denies and lies to our people

03:02:55.680 --> 03:02:57.720
and telling them we have nothing to do
with this stuff.

03:02:57.860 --> 03:02:59.280
And then we read about it.

03:02:59.400 --> 03:03:01.120
But you see, our people are not reading
this book.

03:03:01.340 --> 03:03:02.540
These books, praise the Lord.

03:03:02.540 --> 03:03:07.220
But also, praise the Lord for researchers
such as yourself that the Lord takes you

03:03:07.220 --> 03:03:11.460
to and shows you what is really going on
in the Seventh-day Adventist Church so

03:03:11.460 --> 03:03:14.380
that you can warn our people that we're
being lied to.

03:03:14.980 --> 03:03:21.860
You see, the Cosmic Christ being a
Pantheistic Christ is identical.

03:03:22.500 --> 03:03:24.620
It's the idea of divinity being in
everything.

03:03:24.620 --> 03:03:31.940
And it is identical to the Baal worship
that was present in the days of Elijah,

03:03:32.180 --> 03:03:39.300
where they believed that the Baals lived
in the trees and the stones and this and

03:03:39.300 --> 03:03:39.520
that.

03:03:39.660 --> 03:03:45.720
And also, the Pantheistic element of it
parallels precisely the Alpha of apostasy.

03:03:46.440 --> 03:03:52.320
So we've come right down to the Omega of
apostasy there.

03:03:52.320 --> 03:03:59.700
And for the tie-in, John, between New Age
and Roman Catholicism that goes beyond

03:03:59.700 --> 03:04:03.820
even Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and
Matthew Fox, the Dominican scholar,

03:04:04.080 --> 03:04:09.880
I have this book here, Mary in Faith and
Life in the New Age of the Church.

03:04:10.100 --> 03:04:13.240
Mary in Faith and Life in the New Age.

03:04:13.240 --> 03:04:15.520
Look at that term, New Age of the Church.

03:04:15.520 --> 03:04:21.960
And did you know that over at Medjugorje
in Europe, Mary, the apparition of Mary

03:04:21.960 --> 03:04:27.900
that is appearing to the children,
she is telling the children that Mary is

03:04:27.900 --> 03:04:32.540
very upset with the world because they are
not keeping Sunday.

03:04:34.580 --> 03:04:38.220
Mary is upset because we're not keeping
Sunday.

03:04:38.580 --> 03:04:40.860
Does that tie in with this thing in
Fatima?

03:04:40.860 --> 03:04:43.580
Well, Fatima is a similar type of thing.

03:04:43.740 --> 03:04:46.360
Fatima was more dealing with the
conversion of Russia.

03:04:47.040 --> 03:04:54.500
And here we have the Virgin Mary being
promoted in our own, you know,

03:04:55.060 --> 03:05:00.500
charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting,
but a woman who fears the Lord is to be

03:05:00.500 --> 03:05:02.020
praised, Proverbs 31.30.

03:05:02.020 --> 03:05:09.120
They use this as a passage in this Andrews
Theological Seminary and our Andrews

03:05:09.120 --> 03:05:14.620
University casting yearbook with a picture
of Mary to promote the Virgin Mary.

03:05:15.120 --> 03:05:16.620
I mean, this is unbelievable.

03:05:17.480 --> 03:05:22.360
Have you noticed, Bob, how suddenly on the
whole world, not just on Catholics,

03:05:22.460 --> 03:05:26.460
but on the whole world, on the Protestant
world, everybody is talking about Mary?

03:05:27.040 --> 03:05:30.140
I've noticed that just recently,
that suddenly everybody is talking about

03:05:30.140 --> 03:05:31.060
the Virgin Mary.

03:05:31.060 --> 03:05:31.880
That's right.

03:05:32.540 --> 03:05:37.460
So we have the spiritual exercises that
have been brought in to basically

03:05:37.460 --> 03:05:43.440
subjugate the people to the clergy in a
hierarchical fashion like the Jesuit order

03:05:43.440 --> 03:05:44.020
has.

03:05:44.660 --> 03:05:48.980
And then by 1991, we have hundreds,
you've released some lists of this,

03:05:49.240 --> 03:05:52.620
John, hundreds of SDA pastors that have
been trained in the most sophisticated

03:05:52.620 --> 03:05:57.740
hypnotic techniques in existence to fasten
the congregations in apostasy.

03:05:58.670 --> 03:06:04.840
When you look historically at the
principles used in NLP, it's very

03:06:04.840 --> 03:06:10.940
significant to me that in the Cheka in
Russia, the precursor of the modern KGB,

03:06:11.660 --> 03:06:12.820
they used pacing.

03:06:13.660 --> 03:06:18.740
Dzerzhinsky, who had been trained in
seminary, he was a Polish Catholic.

03:06:19.300 --> 03:06:23.980
He was used by Lenin to set up the
counter-espionage service of the Cheka.

03:06:24.460 --> 03:06:28.200
And he said, we give a man whatever he
wants.

03:06:29.020 --> 03:06:35.260
We teach them how to want to be deceived.

03:06:36.620 --> 03:06:39.480
And this is so fundamental to NLP.

03:06:39.480 --> 03:06:41.160
Our people want to be deceived.

03:06:41.320 --> 03:06:46.180
Our Seventh-day Adventist people want to
believe that the conference is the church

03:06:46.180 --> 03:06:50.220
and that all you have to do is stay with
the conference and blind loyalty to the

03:06:50.220 --> 03:06:53.000
conference and you're going to stay with
the ship and go to heaven.

03:06:53.340 --> 03:06:55.200
Our people want to be deceived.

03:06:55.600 --> 03:06:58.620
Our people want to believe that the
conference is the church, that our

03:06:58.620 --> 03:07:03.480
leadership is not corrupt, that we're not
being led by Catholicism and

03:07:03.480 --> 03:07:06.600
Pentecostalism and New Age techniques.

03:07:06.600 --> 03:07:11.640
You know, they want to believe that the
conference is the church and all they have

03:07:11.640 --> 03:07:13.640
to do is trust the conference and they're
going to heaven.

03:07:14.040 --> 03:07:17.220
So, you know, that just fits right in to
where we are as a people.

03:07:17.520 --> 03:07:19.140
Our people want to be deceived.

03:07:19.820 --> 03:07:20.040
Yes.

03:07:20.180 --> 03:07:24.960
In fact, Ellen White says in Great
Controversy that Satan has a deception for

03:07:24.960 --> 03:07:30.060
anyone who's unwilling to lift the cross
and go against the grain of the carnal

03:07:30.060 --> 03:07:32.500
heart in their spiritual following of
Christ.

03:07:32.500 --> 03:07:40.640
So, this is an utter abomination,
as you've pointed out, John, the NLP

03:07:40.640 --> 03:07:48.040
businesses for binding the congregations
into this very thing that Ellen White

03:07:48.040 --> 03:07:49.730
warned against in Great Controversy.

03:07:50.460 --> 03:07:52.620
We're seeing it happen before our very
eyes.

03:07:52.620 --> 03:07:59.680
And now we come to 1991 and we have John
Paul II in the encyclical in May,

03:08:00.420 --> 03:08:06.480
Centesimus Annus, calling for national
Sunday laws around the world, for all the

03:08:06.480 --> 03:08:11.720
nations to order their legal system to
accommodate Sunday laws.

03:08:11.960 --> 03:08:17.540
And President Bush is working,
laboring to construct a new world order

03:08:17.540 --> 03:08:20.840
based on international law through the
United Nations.

03:08:20.840 --> 03:08:23.880
We have communism collapsing in Russia.

03:08:24.620 --> 03:08:31.380
The major deterrent to the military might
of America has vaporized and now we are

03:08:31.380 --> 03:08:35.700
even sending funds over for the demolition
of their nuclear arms.

03:08:36.220 --> 03:08:41.720
And America is emerging center stage as
the dominant force in the United Nations

03:08:41.720 --> 03:08:44.220
and we taught a lesson to the world in
Kuwait.

03:08:44.680 --> 03:08:49.620
You don't mess with the United Nations led
by the United States or we'll bomb you

03:08:49.620 --> 03:08:50.440
into the Stone Age.

03:08:50.440 --> 03:08:54.160
And so the stage is all set, John.

03:08:54.280 --> 03:09:00.960
It's being set in, we haven't even touched
on it, in the courts, constitutionally,

03:09:01.040 --> 03:09:05.460
in the law schools, the whole way is
prepared for the final crisis being right

03:09:05.460 --> 03:09:05.720
before us.

03:09:05.720 --> 03:09:07.880
What's going on in Europe tie in with
this?

03:09:08.120 --> 03:09:08.600
Absolutely.

03:09:09.220 --> 03:09:15.540
Give us a little, give us a little idea of
how the organization of the European

03:09:15.540 --> 03:09:18.440
states is developing Sunday laws.

03:09:18.620 --> 03:09:20.500
I was amazed to find this out from David
Moulton.

03:09:20.500 --> 03:09:22.060
David Moulton told about it Saturday.

03:09:22.200 --> 03:09:27.280
Bless his heart, the research that he is
doing and how the unification of Europe,

03:09:27.820 --> 03:09:33.740
the European states has already mandated a
Sunday law and they are enforcing it.

03:09:33.740 --> 03:09:37.000
And the people do not want it,
the individual countries do not want it,

03:09:37.260 --> 03:09:42.420
but the organization of European states
says it must be and it is law.

03:09:42.720 --> 03:09:48.360
John, I had an individual send me some
clippings from European papers indicating

03:09:48.360 --> 03:09:53.680
that some of the northern European nations
in Scandinavia are very clear.

03:09:54.420 --> 03:09:58.920
Some of the newspaper editorials and
articles were very clear that the papacy

03:09:58.920 --> 03:10:02.220
is behind this and they fear falling into
this.

03:10:02.220 --> 03:10:04.120
They see it, bless their heart.

03:10:04.560 --> 03:10:12.300
Now Bob, we are in 1991, wrap us up here
and tell us how we as historic Adventist

03:10:12.300 --> 03:10:15.400
people can keep from being sucked into
this whole thing.

03:10:15.820 --> 03:10:20.180
Well John, you know the Bible says over
and over again, unto him shall the

03:10:20.180 --> 03:10:21.320
gathering of the people be.

03:10:21.700 --> 03:10:27.820
We need to gather around Christ and Christ
in his word and have a deep, deep

03:10:27.820 --> 03:10:28.480
experience.

03:10:28.480 --> 03:10:33.080
John, we've got to have an experience that
is deeper and broader than Enoch's and

03:10:33.080 --> 03:10:36.920
Elijah's because the subtlety of the
deceptions we face is so much greater.

03:10:37.420 --> 03:10:41.840
And the 144,000 will sing a song that no
other group sings because they've gone

03:10:41.840 --> 03:10:46.360
through an experience that no other
church, no other group of people has gone

03:10:46.360 --> 03:10:46.720
through.

03:10:47.200 --> 03:10:50.340
And so we have to understand true
Protestantism.

03:10:50.580 --> 03:10:54.460
And thank God for the book Great
Conversation, for the Bible.

03:10:54.680 --> 03:10:58.100
We have to spend time, this has to be the
chief pursuit of our life.

03:10:58.680 --> 03:11:02.740
Knowing God, knowing the principles of
true Protestantism, knowing the principles

03:11:02.740 --> 03:11:09.100
of the word, being faithful in our own
personal life and exhibiting and

03:11:09.100 --> 03:11:13.640
experiencing in our own heart the
righteousness of Christ received by faith.

03:11:14.200 --> 03:11:18.960
Bob, you have made comment on several
occasions today that you feel so bad

03:11:18.960 --> 03:11:22.180
because you left this book and you left
that book and you left all these books.

03:11:22.180 --> 03:11:25.900
And you were going to talk about modern
warfare and you said, oh, I left all those

03:11:25.900 --> 03:11:31.260
books, how the techniques of modern
warfare have just come right out of,

03:11:31.900 --> 03:11:32.940
help me out here.

03:11:33.060 --> 03:11:39.080
Well, Marx and Engels, from then on,
they have seen that diplomatic warfare

03:11:39.080 --> 03:11:40.180
comes first.

03:11:40.600 --> 03:11:42.840
You seek to win your enemy over through
diplomacy.

03:11:43.100 --> 03:11:44.960
And Rome used that with Martin Luther.

03:11:45.040 --> 03:11:45.860
They tried to do that.

03:11:46.760 --> 03:11:53.500
Ideological warfare, propaganda warfare,
economic warfare, and only used military

03:11:53.500 --> 03:11:54.780
force as a last resort.

03:11:55.180 --> 03:12:02.900
So what many of our people are,
I think, of the mindset of is that

03:12:02.900 --> 03:12:07.700
suddenly this National Sunday Law will
appear and there will be teeth in it.

03:12:07.840 --> 03:12:10.140
But Ellen White says the first one will be
just a touch.

03:12:10.680 --> 03:12:14.960
But they think there will be this National
Sunday Law with teeth in it and then

03:12:14.960 --> 03:12:18.100
they'll suddenly wake up and they'll
realize that they're in the last days.

03:12:18.480 --> 03:12:24.540
But what they don't realize is we're in
the heavy onslaught of the conditioning

03:12:24.540 --> 03:12:25.540
process of Rome.

03:12:25.900 --> 03:12:27.700
Conditioning process.

03:12:27.720 --> 03:12:30.780
We are being conditioned for the Sunday
Blue Laws.

03:12:30.920 --> 03:12:35.600
Be not shaped into the mold of this world.

03:12:35.680 --> 03:12:36.280
But be ye transformed.

03:12:36.760 --> 03:12:40.300
Be not conformed to this world,
but be ye transformed by the renewing of

03:12:40.300 --> 03:12:41.220
your mind in Christ Jesus.

03:12:41.380 --> 03:12:45.500
If we're not continually every day and
every hour being transformed by the

03:12:45.500 --> 03:12:49.540
renewing power of Christ, we will
inevitably be conditioned and be swept

03:12:49.540 --> 03:12:50.800
right into the mark of the beast.

03:12:51.600 --> 03:12:55.040
Well, Bob, I appreciate so much this
information that you have brought us.

03:12:55.160 --> 03:12:59.120
And what a debt of gratitude our Adventist
people have to you for enlightening us to

03:12:59.120 --> 03:13:02.940
what is really taking place in our beloved
Seventh-day Adventist church in this

03:13:02.940 --> 03:13:04.260
wonderful message that we have.

03:13:04.260 --> 03:13:06.860
I still have an interview of Terry Ross
I've got to take.

03:13:06.980 --> 03:13:11.380
He's found out some startling information
about NLP and an update from him on what's

03:13:11.380 --> 03:13:14.200
going on in the Shady Point Church there
in Oregon.

03:13:14.640 --> 03:13:17.940
But before we leave, I look over to that
table and I see all those books that we

03:13:17.940 --> 03:13:18.820
haven't even touched on.

03:13:19.100 --> 03:13:21.260
We may have to have you back again here at
Prophecy Countdown.

03:13:21.300 --> 03:13:22.300
It's been most enjoyable.

03:13:22.540 --> 03:13:23.220
It has been for me, John.

03:13:23.220 --> 03:13:23.820
And it was such a blessing.

03:13:23.940 --> 03:13:26.820
The Rolling Hills church members on
Sabbath said how much they appreciated

03:13:26.820 --> 03:13:30.660
your sermon and talk on Sabbath afternoon
and the question and answer period that we

03:13:30.660 --> 03:13:30.960
had.

03:13:30.960 --> 03:13:35.880
Before we get out of this interview,
I just want to ask you to lead us in

03:13:35.880 --> 03:13:41.760
prayer and to pray for God's people in
these trying hours of earth's history.

03:13:42.020 --> 03:13:43.620
Kneel with me, Bob, and lead us in prayer.

03:13:47.700 --> 03:13:52.840
Gracious Father in heaven, it's been
wonderful to fellowship together today.

03:13:52.840 --> 03:13:58.960
And Lord, our great prayer, our great cry
to Thee from our heart is for a mighty

03:13:58.960 --> 03:14:00.640
revival of primitive godliness.

03:14:01.420 --> 03:14:07.320
Lord, the Holy Spirit is moving across the
face of the earth, looking for hearts that

03:14:07.320 --> 03:14:09.120
will be open to His leading.

03:14:09.880 --> 03:14:11.220
May our hearts be open.

03:14:11.740 --> 03:14:16.780
May the mighty power of Christ take
control, transforming all of life.

03:14:16.780 --> 03:14:21.820
Help us to have your worldview that is
given in the book of Revelation and Daniel

03:14:21.820 --> 03:14:23.320
and the great controversy.

03:14:24.060 --> 03:14:28.860
Help us to be faithful, to spend time with
Thee in our prayer lives, to study

03:14:28.860 --> 03:14:31.600
diligently, and to walk in the light.

03:14:32.220 --> 03:14:33.580
Give us great courage.

03:14:33.820 --> 03:14:34.600
Give us faith.

03:14:34.980 --> 03:14:39.880
Help us to learn how to use the armory of
heaven, the sword of the Spirit,

03:14:40.000 --> 03:14:43.920
the shield of faith, the breastplate of
righteousness, the helmet of salvation,

03:14:43.920 --> 03:14:48.500
feet shod with the gospel of peace and
girt about with truth.

03:14:49.060 --> 03:14:55.740
Give us the knowledge, the understanding,
the ability, and the willpower,

03:14:56.120 --> 03:15:00.880
and Thy righteousness, Thy love,
Thy Spirit in these closing hours that we

03:15:00.880 --> 03:15:06.400
will be sealed with the seal of the living
God, that we will be faithful even unto

03:15:06.400 --> 03:15:10.820
death, and that we will receive a crown of
life from Thy hand.

03:15:10.820 --> 03:15:16.560
And sing that song in heaven, and dwell
with Thee throughout the ceaseless ages of

03:15:16.560 --> 03:15:17.040
eternity.

03:15:17.440 --> 03:15:21.600
Bless John here in his ministry,
and bless each one of Thy faithful ones

03:15:21.600 --> 03:15:22.460
around the world.

03:15:22.980 --> 03:15:27.940
Bless our church, we pray, and help us
each one to be ready for the issues,

03:15:28.380 --> 03:15:31.360
to be ready for Thy soon coming,
is our prayer in Jesus' name.

03:15:31.440 --> 03:15:31.540
Amen.

03:15:33.840 --> 03:15:36.160
Bless your heart, Bob, my brother in
Christ.

03:15:36.300 --> 03:15:37.100
God be with you.

03:15:37.180 --> 03:15:39.060
Come back to see us here at Prophecy
Countdown.

03:15:39.080 --> 03:15:39.880
It's been wonderful to be here.

03:15:39.880 --> 03:15:40.260
Thank you.

03:15:43.980 --> 03:15:48.400
Terry Ross, what a privilege it has been
to have you and Kathy here at Prophecy

03:15:48.400 --> 03:15:48.740
Countdown.

03:15:48.860 --> 03:15:50.060
How long have you been here now?

03:15:50.420 --> 03:15:51.000
Two months.

03:15:51.140 --> 03:15:51.920
Two months!

03:15:52.160 --> 03:15:53.020
It's gone great.

03:15:53.100 --> 03:15:58.020
I got so tickled with the letter we just
got from a little friend of yours.

03:15:58.200 --> 03:15:58.420
Right.

03:15:58.640 --> 03:16:04.380
We read it in Church Sabbath, and his big
question was, how are you and John getting

03:16:04.380 --> 03:16:04.760
along?

03:16:05.600 --> 03:16:07.560
I think a lot of people have been worried
about that.

03:16:07.560 --> 03:16:09.980
Yeah, they think it's like putting nitro
and glycerin together, you know,

03:16:10.060 --> 03:16:11.960
putting Terry Ross and John Osborne
together.

03:16:12.080 --> 03:16:14.080
Well, if it's controlled, it's powerful.

03:16:14.400 --> 03:16:15.400
There's nothing wrong with it.

03:16:15.880 --> 03:16:18.420
It has been such a thrill to have you all
here.

03:16:18.540 --> 03:16:20.960
What a godsend you have been to this
ministry.

03:16:21.080 --> 03:16:23.900
And I appreciate the research that you've
done, and that's what I want to talk to

03:16:23.900 --> 03:16:24.560
you about right now.

03:16:24.760 --> 03:16:28.560
You have found something in Mother Jones
Magazine.

03:16:28.660 --> 03:16:31.640
I'll have to admit to you, I've never ever
heard of that magazine.

03:16:31.640 --> 03:16:36.720
But you've found a most astounding
article, and I want you to share it with

03:16:36.720 --> 03:16:39.420
our Prophecy Countdown supporters right
now.

03:16:39.660 --> 03:16:40.200
I'll be glad to.

03:16:40.500 --> 03:16:43.300
Earlier I think you mentioned Constance
Cumby.

03:16:43.420 --> 03:16:43.700
Yes.

03:16:43.840 --> 03:16:47.900
She's a famous attorney and also an
author, as you have pointed out.

03:16:48.680 --> 03:16:55.080
And she sent us a fax a few days ago,
and on that fax was an article from a

03:16:55.080 --> 03:16:57.880
little known, I suspect, magazine called
Mother Jones.

03:16:57.880 --> 03:17:00.720
I didn't know about it either,
but Mother Jones Magazine is a politically

03:17:00.720 --> 03:17:05.780
active magazine, and speaks out on many,
many issues.

03:17:06.040 --> 03:17:11.720
And inside the issue of February-March
1989, and I know we'll show this to the

03:17:11.720 --> 03:17:18.240
people, there's an article in there that I
would like to share with our people that I

03:17:18.240 --> 03:17:23.240
think holds just powerful weight to the
things that we've been trying to expose in

03:17:23.240 --> 03:17:24.300
the NLP area.

03:17:24.920 --> 03:17:25.140
Show us.

03:17:25.140 --> 03:17:30.740
Now, I'm purposely not going to say who
this is, but we'll just tell the story and

03:17:30.740 --> 03:17:32.540
pick up on who it is later, okay?

03:17:32.720 --> 03:17:34.260
You mean who the story is about.

03:17:34.880 --> 03:17:35.940
Is about, that's right.

03:17:36.640 --> 03:17:43.120
We have to go back to New Jersey of 1950,
and this man that we're talking about was

03:17:43.120 --> 03:17:44.020
born in New Jersey.

03:17:44.520 --> 03:17:48.020
In his school days, by the time he got
into high school, he'd moved out to

03:17:48.020 --> 03:17:50.360
Sunnyvale, California, and that's my old
stomping ground, John.

03:17:50.360 --> 03:17:53.640
I was born in San Jose and raised in
Sacramento, and actually worked in

03:17:53.640 --> 03:17:54.600
Sunnyvale for a time.

03:17:55.080 --> 03:17:58.180
That's known now to most people as the
Silicon Valley.

03:18:00.340 --> 03:18:03.200
This young man had a real restless
childhood.

03:18:03.320 --> 03:18:07.920
He didn't make friends easily,
and he had a language deficiency that

03:18:07.920 --> 03:18:10.060
didn't make things very easy on him at
all.

03:18:10.600 --> 03:18:14.040
He was not exactly an outcast,
but he was a loner for sure.

03:18:14.200 --> 03:18:15.760
Just didn't have many friends.

03:18:16.940 --> 03:18:22.160
One of his aspirations in life was he
dreamed that one day he would be able to

03:18:22.160 --> 03:18:24.260
play the drums like Buddy Rich.

03:18:25.040 --> 03:18:31.580
And he practiced, except that his
aspirations seemed to be more than his

03:18:31.580 --> 03:18:34.960
actual talent, and he never did achieve
that type of stardom.

03:18:35.260 --> 03:18:41.760
But he did learn the drums well enough
that he was asked by a man to teach his

03:18:41.760 --> 03:18:44.040
son how to play the drums.

03:18:44.040 --> 03:18:46.520
And this man would later mold his life.

03:18:47.040 --> 03:18:50.680
The man's name was Robert Spitzer,
who was a psychiatrist at the time,

03:18:50.800 --> 03:18:56.600
and quickly became a father figure to this
young man who had very few friends in

03:18:56.600 --> 03:18:56.880
life.

03:18:57.560 --> 03:19:03.860
And he willingly lit this young man all of
his books on psychology.

03:19:04.820 --> 03:19:07.940
This seemed to be his niche in life.

03:19:08.040 --> 03:19:09.420
He started devouring his books.

03:19:09.820 --> 03:19:12.760
He really took to it like a fish to water,
as the saying goes.

03:19:13.380 --> 03:19:20.520
Now, Terry, do I need to remind our people
that even though they don't know who this

03:19:20.520 --> 03:19:25.840
individual is, to pay close attention to
the history of this man.

03:19:26.240 --> 03:19:29.880
Because when they get to the end of this
story and find out who this man is,

03:19:30.580 --> 03:19:31.440
it's going to blow them away.

03:19:32.760 --> 03:19:34.540
I'm glad you brought that up too,
John.

03:19:34.640 --> 03:19:40.180
Because one thing I need to stress is
folks will definitely want to get the

03:19:40.180 --> 03:19:40.980
documentation pack up.

03:19:41.060 --> 03:19:45.720
Because we will include in its entirety
this story out of the magazine in its

03:19:45.720 --> 03:19:47.600
completeness, along with pictures.

03:19:49.060 --> 03:19:53.340
So anyway, Spitzer, the psychiatrist who
had kind of taken this young man in,

03:19:53.660 --> 03:19:59.240
also introduced him to a pioneer family
therapist by the name of Virginia Satcher.

03:19:59.380 --> 03:20:01.120
And we'll get back to her just a little
bit later.

03:20:01.120 --> 03:20:05.100
And we'll show you how she ties into all
this NLP stuff.

03:20:05.460 --> 03:20:11.780
Her messages of self-love and acceptance
just seemed to really hit his heart,

03:20:11.860 --> 03:20:12.840
something he really needed.

03:20:12.980 --> 03:20:14.640
And they became quick friends as well.

03:20:14.920 --> 03:20:19.120
And she kind of took him under her wing in
sort of a maternal way.

03:20:20.340 --> 03:20:28.640
After the young man graduated from high
school in 1968, he enrolled in a nearby

03:20:28.640 --> 03:20:33.000
junior college and took philosophy.

03:20:33.520 --> 03:20:35.140
He was very interested in that.

03:20:36.520 --> 03:20:38.720
And the thing, this is where he started to
blossom.

03:20:38.960 --> 03:20:43.440
Because in the environment of philosophy,
he was able to freely speak his mind and

03:20:43.440 --> 03:20:44.620
he really enjoyed this.

03:20:44.620 --> 03:20:48.260
For the first time in his life,
he wasn't afraid to just speak right out

03:20:48.260 --> 03:20:50.860
because this was the atmosphere that the
environment had created.

03:20:53.400 --> 03:20:58.740
He had moved by now, in the middle of this
course, to the hills of Santa Cruz,

03:20:58.820 --> 03:21:00.920
California, which is another place I used
to go all the time.

03:21:00.980 --> 03:21:03.540
There at the boardwalk and surfing and so
forth.

03:21:03.620 --> 03:21:07.020
So I'm very much familiar with the kind of
mindset that people have there.

03:21:07.060 --> 03:21:07.720
It's pretty open.

03:21:08.540 --> 03:21:13.820
The grassroots of a lot of the drug,
kind of like Haight-Ashbury.

03:21:13.820 --> 03:21:17.840
That's what Santa Cruz also imbibed in
that era.

03:21:18.620 --> 03:21:25.100
The people that knew this young man well
still felt that he was not comfortable in

03:21:25.100 --> 03:21:25.420
the world.

03:21:25.780 --> 03:21:26.720
That's how they put him.

03:21:27.180 --> 03:21:28.300
That he was just kind of a loner.

03:21:29.020 --> 03:21:32.840
Even though he would speak his mind in
certain environments, he wouldn't attach

03:21:32.840 --> 03:21:33.640
himself to people.

03:21:33.700 --> 03:21:34.560
Didn't fit in.

03:21:34.600 --> 03:21:36.240
No, he just didn't quite fit in.

03:21:37.120 --> 03:21:42.320
He did have some talent, though,
in the area of communication.

03:21:43.220 --> 03:21:50.680
And found out right away that he had a
profound impact by what he was learning.

03:21:51.120 --> 03:21:58.660
Not only the community, but the therapists
that were beginning to understand what he

03:21:58.660 --> 03:21:59.320
was getting into.

03:21:59.320 --> 03:22:06.640
And they felt that what he was doing would
have a lot of beneficial...

03:22:09.320 --> 03:22:13.120
Well, just a lot of benefits to their way
of thinking.

03:22:13.500 --> 03:22:18.260
Now, one thing that he did have,
which was very uncanny, was that he could

03:22:18.260 --> 03:22:21.780
mimic people with an uncanny accuracy.

03:22:22.140 --> 03:22:23.660
He could just watch what they did.

03:22:23.860 --> 03:22:25.400
He could match their voice tones.

03:22:25.880 --> 03:22:26.400
Impersonate?

03:22:26.400 --> 03:22:31.020
Kind of like Rich Little or some of these
impressionists, that they can copy the

03:22:31.020 --> 03:22:31.340
person.

03:22:31.740 --> 03:22:36.720
Their syntax, their tone of voice,
their mannerisms to where you almost swear

03:22:36.720 --> 03:22:37.820
that that's the person themselves.

03:22:38.080 --> 03:22:38.320
Absolutely.

03:22:38.740 --> 03:22:41.140
Their voice structure, their mannerisms.

03:22:42.040 --> 03:22:49.480
It was similar to, like you might see,
a young man who has not too much in life,

03:22:49.540 --> 03:22:51.620
but all of a sudden he's a prodigy of
music.

03:22:51.980 --> 03:22:55.480
So he had a real talent in this area of
being able to mimic people.

03:22:55.480 --> 03:22:57.120
It just flowed out of him.

03:22:57.540 --> 03:22:57.540
Natural.

03:23:00.220 --> 03:23:07.520
In 1970, this man decided that psychology
had become such a great love to him that

03:23:07.520 --> 03:23:10.160
he enrolled at the University of
California at Santa Cruz.

03:23:10.880 --> 03:23:15.760
And although he wasn't interested in
self-discovery, as most psychology kind of

03:23:15.760 --> 03:23:24.080
teaches, he liked to use his knowledge
that he had that came from Virginia Sater

03:23:24.080 --> 03:23:29.780
and also Fritz Perls to lead the guest
talk groups, which were groups that would

03:23:29.780 --> 03:23:34.460
get in circles and discover their own
needs, look to the inner self,

03:23:34.740 --> 03:23:36.940
and try to look for answers inside their
own minds.

03:23:37.040 --> 03:23:38.620
Now who are these people you just
mentioned?

03:23:38.680 --> 03:23:39.700
You just mentioned their names.

03:23:39.860 --> 03:23:40.920
Who are these people?

03:23:40.920 --> 03:23:46.040
Virginia Sater was a leading family
therapist at the time.

03:23:46.180 --> 03:23:47.780
What are the years?

03:23:48.280 --> 03:23:49.920
This was in 1970s.

03:23:50.980 --> 03:23:56.600
And then Fritz Perls was one of the people
that founded the guest talk groups,

03:23:57.060 --> 03:23:57.720
which was...

03:23:57.720 --> 03:23:58.580
Group therapy.

03:23:59.080 --> 03:24:02.300
...and was becoming very prevalent around
1970s.

03:24:02.400 --> 03:24:03.560
Yes, I do remember that.

03:24:03.560 --> 03:24:09.960
Now this is also where he met,
at the University of Santa Cruz,

03:24:10.040 --> 03:24:15.720
a professor that took a very liking to the
young man, because there was a chemistry

03:24:15.720 --> 03:24:17.060
there that was kind of unique.

03:24:17.480 --> 03:24:23.080
And the professor's name was Richard,
excuse me, John Grinder was his name.

03:24:23.140 --> 03:24:28.980
And I'm sure that probably people know at
least John Grinder has a lot to do with

03:24:28.980 --> 03:24:29.420
NLP.

03:24:29.600 --> 03:24:30.140
Of course.

03:24:32.700 --> 03:24:41.320
Those who had kind of taken this kind of
mindset with the professor, and John

03:24:41.320 --> 03:24:46.560
Grinder, and Virginia Sater, and Fritz
Perls, and these type of people in the

03:24:46.560 --> 03:24:53.140
immediate area, all kind of gravitated to
this...

03:24:53.980 --> 03:24:57.640
Well, actually it was a property that used
to be a nudist colony.

03:24:57.640 --> 03:25:04.560
And then the Robert Spitzer took it and
turned it into a commune for these

03:25:04.560 --> 03:25:13.260
intellects, where they could come and stay
and just do this mind blazing trails,

03:25:14.000 --> 03:25:17.660
just get their heads together and try to
sort these things out and perfect their

03:25:17.660 --> 03:25:18.820
techniques and so forth.

03:25:18.860 --> 03:25:19.720
Techniques of what?

03:25:19.840 --> 03:25:20.420
How to...

03:25:20.420 --> 03:25:21.440
How to get in...

03:25:21.440 --> 03:25:22.940
How people's mind works.

03:25:23.080 --> 03:25:23.780
Ah, okay.

03:25:23.820 --> 03:25:24.340
How they work.

03:25:24.380 --> 03:25:26.340
And they really got into this for a few
years.

03:25:28.960 --> 03:25:33.160
Those at the commune that remembered this
man that we're talking about, they

03:25:33.160 --> 03:25:36.320
remembered him as a very intense person
and very temperamental.

03:25:36.440 --> 03:25:41.080
He had a hot temper and he would at
certain times really explode.

03:25:41.900 --> 03:25:45.200
And matter of fact, it wasn't too long
after he moved to the commune that the

03:25:45.200 --> 03:25:49.240
people on it asked Spitzer, the owner,
to have him removed.

03:25:50.020 --> 03:25:51.140
Because he was such a violent person?

03:25:51.160 --> 03:25:52.260
Because he was a violent person.

03:25:52.820 --> 03:25:56.160
But Spitzer refused because he knew his
background.

03:25:56.520 --> 03:25:59.280
So Spitzer was the one that was in charge
of this commune that had been a former

03:25:59.280 --> 03:25:59.860
nudist colony.

03:25:59.980 --> 03:26:00.160
He owned it.

03:26:00.160 --> 03:26:03.180
He was now getting these people together
to figure out how the mind worked.

03:26:03.320 --> 03:26:03.680
Absolutely.

03:26:03.840 --> 03:26:04.520
He owned it.

03:26:05.000 --> 03:26:09.400
Also, it was at this time that the young
man that we're talking about started to

03:26:09.400 --> 03:26:10.780
brag about his heavy use of cocaine.

03:26:11.500 --> 03:26:12.720
So he was a heavy coke user?

03:26:13.160 --> 03:26:13.920
Yes, he was.

03:26:14.000 --> 03:26:14.820
Very heavy coke user.

03:26:14.960 --> 03:26:15.940
And a drinker as well.

03:26:16.720 --> 03:26:22.380
Now, while at the commune, Professor
Grinder and this man started an intensive

03:26:22.380 --> 03:26:26.140
study hoping to understand the techniques
of linguistics.

03:26:27.400 --> 03:26:28.680
And how...

03:26:28.680 --> 03:26:29.000
Both...

03:26:29.620 --> 03:26:30.840
What are linguistics, Terry?

03:26:31.280 --> 03:26:33.040
Well, linguistics are...

03:26:33.040 --> 03:26:33.840
Has to do with language.

03:26:33.880 --> 03:26:36.000
The professional use of language.

03:26:36.100 --> 03:26:36.340
Yes.

03:26:36.600 --> 03:26:36.920
Right.

03:26:37.080 --> 03:26:41.800
Very technical type dissection of how
voice tones are used.

03:26:41.800 --> 03:26:46.640
And also, not only just linguistics,
but the non-verbal use of body posture.

03:26:47.200 --> 03:26:50.440
And they got their heads together and this
was their...

03:26:51.320 --> 03:26:53.440
This was their child, their brain child.

03:26:53.600 --> 03:26:55.600
And they focused completely on this.

03:26:57.540 --> 03:27:03.800
They also, at this time, met... These two
men met...

03:27:04.400 --> 03:27:05.800
The renowned psychiatrist...

03:27:06.900 --> 03:27:09.560
Psychiatrist, hypnosis, Milton Erickson.

03:27:09.800 --> 03:27:11.580
And they began to study with him as well.

03:27:11.580 --> 03:27:14.220
Milton Erickson, we talked about that on
our first NLP video.

03:27:14.320 --> 03:27:15.980
Bill Loveless talked about him,
didn't he?

03:27:16.120 --> 03:27:16.260
Yes.

03:27:16.520 --> 03:27:19.280
So, here you have the professor of
psychology.

03:27:19.860 --> 03:27:24.040
You have John Grinder, one of the
co-founders of NLP.

03:27:24.280 --> 03:27:26.140
You have this other young man that we're
talking about.

03:27:26.500 --> 03:27:29.560
And you have Milton Erickson, they're all
together, getting their heads together,

03:27:29.660 --> 03:27:30.900
trying to work out.

03:27:31.200 --> 03:27:35.020
You have the professor of linguistics,
non-verbal communication with body

03:27:35.020 --> 03:27:35.420
posture.

03:27:35.420 --> 03:27:38.520
And the top dog of hypnosis.

03:27:38.940 --> 03:27:43.620
All coming together, trying to work these
techniques out in order to become what we

03:27:43.620 --> 03:27:44.340
would call...

03:27:45.120 --> 03:27:47.860
Magicians of the therapy in the mind
field.

03:27:47.960 --> 03:27:49.020
That's what they were doing.

03:27:49.660 --> 03:27:51.720
And I have to say, it is a mind field,
John.

03:27:51.840 --> 03:27:52.740
Hey, man, I...

03:27:52.740 --> 03:27:53.180
I get it.

03:27:53.280 --> 03:27:53.840
M-I-N-E?

03:27:53.900 --> 03:27:54.280
Yes.

03:27:55.300 --> 03:27:56.500
This quickly generated...

03:27:56.940 --> 03:27:59.420
As they were perfecting their
techniques...

03:28:00.020 --> 03:28:04.320
Quickly generated into an enormous amount
of interest in their own community,

03:28:04.420 --> 03:28:05.220
professional community.

03:28:06.380 --> 03:28:10.900
And this would be the community of
humanistic psychology.

03:28:11.900 --> 03:28:16.020
And they took what was now known as
neuro-linguistic programming on the road.

03:28:16.120 --> 03:28:19.620
They decided that they were ready to take
it on the road.

03:28:19.880 --> 03:28:23.280
Start bringing people together and
charging enormous sums of money.

03:28:23.860 --> 03:28:28.660
Matter of fact, at this time, the young
man was starting to charge upwards to

03:28:28.660 --> 03:28:30.000
$4,000 a day.

03:28:30.420 --> 03:28:32.020
So he's making big money now with it.

03:28:32.160 --> 03:28:33.020
Big bucks.

03:28:33.020 --> 03:28:38.020
He started accumulating properties both
here in the United States...

03:28:38.920 --> 03:28:41.360
And I guess Hawaii is also part of the
United States, but I think of it as an

03:28:41.360 --> 03:28:41.540
island.

03:28:42.360 --> 03:28:44.020
And on the islands over there...

03:28:44.800 --> 03:28:47.380
By giving these seminars in... what?

03:28:47.500 --> 03:28:48.120
Mind control?

03:28:48.560 --> 03:28:50.280
Mind control, NLP, right?

03:28:50.400 --> 03:28:51.060
Mind control.

03:28:51.600 --> 03:28:53.420
What the audiences...

03:28:53.420 --> 03:29:00.880
What actually brought them to this young
fellow was that he was very stimulating.

03:29:01.640 --> 03:29:05.220
They saw them as being irreverent,
very funny.

03:29:05.580 --> 03:29:09.800
They were very outspoken in their
criticism toward the traditional therapy.

03:29:10.320 --> 03:29:12.380
During this time, is he still taking
cocaine?

03:29:12.560 --> 03:29:14.280
Is he a heavy coke user during all this?

03:29:14.340 --> 03:29:15.120
We're going to get into that.

03:29:15.660 --> 03:29:17.140
Of course, the people didn't know that.

03:29:17.360 --> 03:29:18.600
But yes, very much so.

03:29:18.660 --> 03:29:21.900
He was heavily into... a heavy drug user
into cocaine.

03:29:22.160 --> 03:29:22.640
Absolutely.

03:29:22.860 --> 03:29:23.900
Being his drug of preference.

03:29:24.240 --> 03:29:24.580
Absolutely.

03:29:25.100 --> 03:29:28.740
Another thing that they absolutely
delighted in doing was confusing their

03:29:28.740 --> 03:29:29.340
audiences.

03:29:29.340 --> 03:29:34.060
And they would tell their people out and
out that what we're about to tell you is a

03:29:34.060 --> 03:29:34.580
pack of lies.

03:29:34.660 --> 03:29:35.200
They would just tell them.

03:29:35.460 --> 03:29:38.140
They just absolutely loved to just shock
their audiences.

03:29:38.920 --> 03:29:41.580
And taunt them with the fact that they
were being manipulated and lied to.

03:29:41.940 --> 03:29:42.340
Absolutely.

03:29:42.700 --> 03:29:48.640
And what is kind of... well, for a better
word, maybe twisted or warped about the

03:29:48.640 --> 03:29:51.520
human mind is the carnal nature.

03:29:51.620 --> 03:29:54.540
And I have to say, I'm the same way if I
don't keep my eyes on Jesus.

03:29:55.260 --> 03:29:58.120
Our minds are so twisted, we kind of
gravitate to that stuff.

03:29:58.120 --> 03:30:01.640
I mean, you know, if we think it's weird
and strange, it's weirder and stranger,

03:30:01.740 --> 03:30:02.800
the more we want to go see it.

03:30:03.320 --> 03:30:05.440
You know, and so these people just started
pouring in.

03:30:07.440 --> 03:30:11.580
Although they weren't therapists,
actually, didn't have any PhDs in the area

03:30:11.580 --> 03:30:12.020
at all.

03:30:12.220 --> 03:30:16.220
They started treating clients and calling
themselves doctors.

03:30:16.700 --> 03:30:21.480
And in their periodicals and books that
they wrote, called themselves doctors all

03:30:21.480 --> 03:30:21.780
the time.

03:30:21.800 --> 03:30:24.560
And when there was a question about that,
they would just slough that off on their

03:30:24.560 --> 03:30:27.920
audiences and say, Well, those people
called us doctors, and so we just go along

03:30:27.920 --> 03:30:28.440
with the flow.

03:30:30.240 --> 03:30:35.880
The man that we're talking about quickly
developed quite a reputation for being

03:30:35.880 --> 03:30:37.300
able to read people very quickly.

03:30:37.780 --> 03:30:41.220
He could see how you were, hear your voice
structure, your tones, your body

03:30:41.220 --> 03:30:41.540
movements.

03:30:41.600 --> 03:30:44.300
And very quickly, he could get right into
your head.

03:30:44.900 --> 03:30:50.000
And the people were absolutely fascinated
by his talent.

03:30:51.460 --> 03:30:55.980
He was the type of person and had the type
of personality that could put a person at

03:30:55.980 --> 03:30:58.820
ease almost immediately or scare you to
death.

03:30:59.460 --> 03:31:00.980
He could do anything he wanted to with
you.

03:31:01.100 --> 03:31:03.380
It was like, you'd be like a yo-yo on a
string.

03:31:03.520 --> 03:31:06.420
He could wind you around, throw you in the
air, toss you off the walls.

03:31:06.480 --> 03:31:09.100
He had the ability to control people
against their will.

03:31:09.480 --> 03:31:09.880
Absolute.

03:31:10.220 --> 03:31:15.420
He dazzled his audiences with his agile
mind, his quick wit, his skill as a...

03:31:15.420 --> 03:31:16.560
A hypnosis and a healer.

03:31:16.600 --> 03:31:17.740
And I thought that was very...

03:31:17.740 --> 03:31:18.300
Very significant.

03:31:18.360 --> 03:31:18.980
Very significant.

03:31:19.460 --> 03:31:23.000
Because we've said on the videos in the
past that we'll be seeing healing in the

03:31:23.000 --> 03:31:23.280
church.

03:31:23.480 --> 03:31:23.580
Yes.

03:31:23.700 --> 03:31:25.760
And we said that before we knew about NLP.

03:31:26.260 --> 03:31:27.620
And now we're saying it even harder.

03:31:27.840 --> 03:31:27.980
Yes.

03:31:27.980 --> 03:31:31.200
And I praise the Lord that he's
vindicating his name...

03:31:31.340 --> 03:31:31.920
...in all of this.

03:31:32.680 --> 03:31:39.380
As the story goes, anyway, the therapist,
after they were taking a closer look at

03:31:39.380 --> 03:31:44.340
the NLP techniques, they were all very
much interested in handling this material.

03:31:44.920 --> 03:31:48.400
Incorporating it into the professional
community of what they did.

03:31:48.400 --> 03:31:51.100
And now very much so across the United
States.

03:31:51.260 --> 03:31:53.660
And actually these folks are traveling
around the world now.

03:31:54.560 --> 03:31:55.400
It has been...

03:31:56.160 --> 03:31:58.920
And we've showed some of this in Loma
Linda.

03:31:59.220 --> 03:32:03.120
It's being used in the medical society
because it works.

03:32:04.780 --> 03:32:10.100
Like the New Age philosophy that he'd
learned, he incorporated everything that

03:32:10.100 --> 03:32:16.620
he taught by using the therapy of
constructed and reconstructed his own

03:32:16.620 --> 03:32:17.240
past.

03:32:17.240 --> 03:32:24.680
He would use NLP in his own past so many
times to hide his own past that he

03:32:24.680 --> 03:32:27.220
himself, I believe, became confused about
who he really was.

03:32:27.920 --> 03:32:30.320
And what he would do is he would tell
stories.

03:32:31.200 --> 03:32:34.960
And the stories would go back into his
past.

03:32:35.040 --> 03:32:40.360
He'd tell stories such as that he used to
be a rock star.

03:32:41.300 --> 03:32:42.160
And he never was.

03:32:42.380 --> 03:32:43.480
But he would tell it just like he was.

03:32:43.480 --> 03:32:44.480
Couldn't even play the drums.

03:32:45.060 --> 03:32:46.060
No, he tried.

03:32:46.060 --> 03:32:47.900
But he could.

03:32:48.260 --> 03:32:52.120
He would also tell stories that he owned a
topless bar at age 16 and became a

03:32:52.120 --> 03:32:53.180
millionaire at age 18.

03:32:53.660 --> 03:32:54.600
And none of that was true.

03:32:55.260 --> 03:32:56.420
This is what he was telling his audiences?

03:32:56.580 --> 03:32:56.960
Oh, yes.

03:32:57.040 --> 03:33:01.860
He was telling them as a professional that
that's his background, see, to get the

03:33:01.860 --> 03:33:03.260
power on his side.

03:33:03.860 --> 03:33:08.260
He reconstructed stories so often,
John, he would go back into his own mind

03:33:08.260 --> 03:33:10.280
and do what they call reframing.

03:33:10.520 --> 03:33:11.740
Reframe his own background.

03:33:11.880 --> 03:33:13.520
He'd become anybody he wanted to become.

03:33:13.520 --> 03:33:20.620
Another thing that's very important to
know about this young man is that the

03:33:20.620 --> 03:33:25.260
power of NLP gives a person the ability to
take the guilt of something that you might

03:33:25.260 --> 03:33:29.240
have done in your past and slough it off
by reframing your past so that you really

03:33:29.240 --> 03:33:29.880
didn't do that.

03:33:30.800 --> 03:33:31.520
Understand what I'm saying?

03:33:32.060 --> 03:33:34.060
And this is what he did quite often.

03:33:35.100 --> 03:33:36.580
And in his own mind.

03:33:36.600 --> 03:33:37.600
That's what reframing is all about,
isn't it?

03:33:37.600 --> 03:33:38.980
That's exactly what it's all about.

03:33:39.360 --> 03:33:44.700
He also told stories that he had a black
belt in karate and having discussed pain

03:33:44.700 --> 03:33:46.800
control for the CIA and the army.

03:33:47.040 --> 03:33:47.460
What control?

03:33:48.080 --> 03:33:48.820
Pain control.

03:33:49.040 --> 03:33:50.000
Oh, pain control.

03:33:50.100 --> 03:33:50.720
Pain control.

03:33:51.400 --> 03:33:55.340
He told his audiences that he went to the
CIA and discussed pain control with them

03:33:55.340 --> 03:34:00.820
and also the army and purportedly to prove
his power.

03:34:00.820 --> 03:34:07.340
They had taken an agent out of the CIA and
put an ice pit clear through the guy's

03:34:07.340 --> 03:34:09.840
hand to prove that NLP really worked.

03:34:10.180 --> 03:34:11.840
And he never flinched?

03:34:12.100 --> 03:34:13.080
No, never flinched.

03:34:13.980 --> 03:34:19.480
It was on Saturday morning, February 1984,
when suddenly, almost magically,

03:34:19.960 --> 03:34:21.740
he produced a pistol.

03:34:22.600 --> 03:34:27.980
While on stage in front of an audience,
right between the eyes of a psychiatrist

03:34:27.980 --> 03:34:29.300
who had volunteered to come up.

03:34:30.200 --> 03:34:33.420
He took out this revolver and just pointed
it right at the guy.

03:34:34.440 --> 03:34:40.060
And the point that he was trying to make
was that anyone can change if he has the

03:34:40.060 --> 03:34:40.700
right stimulus.

03:34:42.520 --> 03:34:45.720
And the volunteer had said, the
psychiatrist had disagreed with him,

03:34:45.820 --> 03:34:45.900
say.

03:34:46.940 --> 03:34:49.440
And here's the quote out of the magazine.

03:34:50.160 --> 03:34:53.600
This is the man talking now that's giving
the NLP.

03:34:53.800 --> 03:34:57.300
He says, remember, he's got this gun
pointed at this psychiatrist, real live

03:34:57.300 --> 03:34:57.600
gun.

03:34:58.280 --> 03:35:03.520
I've got news for you, he taunted,
you've got no idea how nuts I am.

03:35:04.060 --> 03:35:10.800
How many people have one, talking about
the gun, in their pocket, waiting for you?

03:35:12.620 --> 03:35:15.520
And you're going to tell me that I won't
do it?

03:35:16.020 --> 03:35:16.600
He laughed.

03:35:17.740 --> 03:35:22.480
I don't have to kill you, I just have to
wound you, he added.

03:35:22.980 --> 03:35:25.480
I've done weirder things to my clients.

03:35:25.480 --> 03:35:31.580
You didn't know that this was going to be
real, did you?

03:35:32.320 --> 03:35:36.720
Now, can you imagine sitting there,
this guy's got a loaded weapon in his

03:35:36.720 --> 03:35:37.020
hand.

03:35:37.340 --> 03:35:40.900
Pointing it right between your eyes and
being just dead serious with you.

03:35:41.240 --> 03:35:45.740
And he's already got this reputation of
being weird and a reputation of violence.

03:35:46.640 --> 03:35:49.460
Well, of course, the psychiatrist was
visibly shaken.

03:35:50.600 --> 03:35:54.480
And he said, yes, the change is possible.

03:35:54.480 --> 03:35:56.140
Of course, he succumbed, he surrendered.

03:35:56.840 --> 03:35:58.740
And this is when the other man said,
absolutely.

03:35:59.740 --> 03:36:01.780
Otherwise, I would have shot you by now.

03:36:02.700 --> 03:36:05.740
You see, so he demonstrated, and the
audience laughed.

03:36:06.120 --> 03:36:07.160
You see, big joke.

03:36:08.180 --> 03:36:13.660
And, of course, then he went on to tell
the audience, and analyze the dynamics of

03:36:13.660 --> 03:36:14.780
the psychiatrist's terror.

03:36:14.920 --> 03:36:16.200
You see, it was all just a big gimmick.

03:36:16.400 --> 03:36:18.040
Of course, the psychiatrist didn't know
that.

03:36:18.440 --> 03:36:23.080
He also told a story about how he had
gotten a woman, who was afraid of heights,

03:36:23.080 --> 03:36:24.560
to sing.

03:36:24.940 --> 03:36:29.100
He got into her mind and analyzed that she
was afraid of heights because of some

03:36:29.100 --> 03:36:29.400
reason.

03:36:29.560 --> 03:36:34.920
So, he got her to sing the Star-Spangled
Banner, while walking over to the edge of

03:36:34.920 --> 03:36:40.180
a, I don't know how many stories it was,
but a large building to take away her

03:36:40.180 --> 03:36:40.520
fear.

03:36:40.980 --> 03:36:45.340
Then one time, he also says that he had a
schizophrenic in his office.

03:36:46.520 --> 03:36:48.680
And the schizophrenic thought he was Jesus
Christ.

03:36:48.840 --> 03:36:50.180
This is the story in the article.

03:36:51.420 --> 03:36:56.860
And how he cured him was that this man
built a cross, and told this man in all

03:36:56.860 --> 03:36:58.440
seriousness that he was going to crucify
him.

03:36:59.760 --> 03:37:02.780
And, of course, the man, you know,
was jarred out of that.

03:37:03.020 --> 03:37:05.200
So, you can see this man will go to any
extreme.

03:37:05.920 --> 03:37:08.120
We are talking extremely kinky,
weird guy.

03:37:08.540 --> 03:37:08.880
Absolutely.

03:37:10.240 --> 03:37:11.760
Totally controlled by the devil.

03:37:12.100 --> 03:37:15.220
On cocaine, drug user, do anything,
violent.

03:37:15.560 --> 03:37:16.420
Okay, carry on.

03:37:16.940 --> 03:37:17.380
Absolutely.

03:37:17.780 --> 03:37:21.860
Well, by 1986, coming closer to home now,
this man was divided.

03:37:22.000 --> 03:37:23.220
He was at war with his own soul.

03:37:23.320 --> 03:37:26.760
Like I said, he had gone so many times in
the past, told so many lies.

03:37:27.180 --> 03:37:29.700
You know, and then justified his lies.

03:37:29.760 --> 03:37:31.160
They didn't even know who he was.

03:37:32.580 --> 03:37:36.020
He was living in a home built by his close
friend.

03:37:36.060 --> 03:37:39.160
He finally got a close friend by the name
of James Marino.

03:37:40.160 --> 03:37:42.020
He bought this home from his close friend.

03:37:42.540 --> 03:37:44.440
And he built this thing up like a
fortress.

03:37:44.600 --> 03:37:47.160
I mean, it had eight foot high fences
around it.

03:37:47.380 --> 03:37:48.600
Had a trained German shepherd.

03:37:49.140 --> 03:37:54.680
Had solid core doors on every room in the
house with dead bolts.

03:37:55.060 --> 03:37:56.960
Now, by this time, he is making some heavy
coin.

03:37:57.060 --> 03:37:58.160
This guy is making big money.

03:37:58.460 --> 03:37:58.740
Absolutely.

03:37:59.100 --> 03:38:02.380
Going around teaching these seminars,
people had to get into other people's mind

03:38:02.380 --> 03:38:03.560
or what we know as NLP.

03:38:03.820 --> 03:38:04.180
Yes.

03:38:04.700 --> 03:38:10.080
He's got a small arsenal, several weapons,
a semi-automatic weapon, knives in the

03:38:10.080 --> 03:38:10.380
house.

03:38:10.380 --> 03:38:16.240
He makes even his friends or his
acquaintances or people that he knows that

03:38:16.240 --> 03:38:17.040
come over every time.

03:38:17.120 --> 03:38:19.900
They have to take a voice analysis before
he'll let them come into the house.

03:38:20.240 --> 03:38:21.720
I mean, this guy is super paranoid.

03:38:23.560 --> 03:38:28.400
Even though married at this time,
he has a mistress that his wife knows

03:38:28.400 --> 03:38:28.760
about.

03:38:29.180 --> 03:38:31.840
And he tells her that she must be
tolerated or there'll be problems.

03:38:32.440 --> 03:38:35.180
And so, I mean, this guy is just into
everything.

03:38:35.480 --> 03:38:37.520
Still using cocaine very heavily.

03:38:38.080 --> 03:38:42.960
Now, his close friend who he bought the
house from, James Marino, had a

03:38:42.960 --> 03:38:43.260
girlfriend.

03:38:43.960 --> 03:38:45.420
Her name is Corrine Christensen.

03:38:46.220 --> 03:38:52.280
Corrine Christensen was a prostitute who
ran a call girl service, exclusive call

03:38:52.280 --> 03:38:52.780
girl service.

03:38:53.420 --> 03:38:57.280
And even though she was 22 years younger
than James Marino, he had such a

03:38:57.280 --> 03:38:59.600
personality that I guess she really fell
in love with the guy.

03:39:00.260 --> 03:39:01.920
Was he using any of these techniques on
her?

03:39:01.940 --> 03:39:02.460
Oh, absolutely.

03:39:02.460 --> 03:39:07.400
Because, you see, one of the reasons he
had become the friend of the man that the

03:39:07.400 --> 03:39:12.120
story is about is because he liked the
power that the man wielded.

03:39:12.180 --> 03:39:13.000
And he wanted some of it.

03:39:13.620 --> 03:39:17.660
James Marino had said that he had ties
with the mafia.

03:39:18.180 --> 03:39:19.340
He was a cocaine dealer.

03:39:19.660 --> 03:39:21.600
So, you see the marriage that was being
made there.

03:39:21.840 --> 03:39:24.020
This guy wanted power of mind control.

03:39:24.300 --> 03:39:26.140
The guy that we're talking about wanted
cocaine.

03:39:26.560 --> 03:39:31.400
So, we have a real satanic, twisted
marriage going on here between these two

03:39:31.400 --> 03:39:31.720
fellows.

03:39:33.780 --> 03:39:40.600
After, in the same year, at the end of the
same year, 1986, Marino falls out of

03:39:40.600 --> 03:39:42.800
relationship with this gal and picks up
another girlfriend.

03:39:43.240 --> 03:39:46.060
And is talking about moving to Florida,
actually.

03:39:46.420 --> 03:39:49.720
And moving his cocaine business out to the
states.

03:39:49.720 --> 03:39:51.140
So, he's selling cocaine.

03:39:51.740 --> 03:39:52.380
Oh, yes.

03:39:52.380 --> 03:39:52.800
He's a dealer.

03:39:54.000 --> 03:39:56.760
But, Corrine had something else in mind.

03:39:56.840 --> 03:39:59.000
She was still in love with the guy and she
didn't want him to leave.

03:39:59.000 --> 03:40:06.200
And she persuaded him to take her to a
Halloween party, which was on October...

03:40:06.200 --> 03:40:07.160
Let's see if I can get the date here.

03:40:07.220 --> 03:40:09.540
October 25th, 1986.

03:40:10.860 --> 03:40:13.200
And, which he did get talked into that.

03:40:13.620 --> 03:40:16.960
Now, not long after they went to this
party, for no apparent reason,

03:40:17.040 --> 03:40:20.500
this big burly guy comes up to James
Marino and just knocks his teeth out.

03:40:20.760 --> 03:40:22.400
Just absolutely attacks him.

03:40:22.800 --> 03:40:23.760
Knocks his teeth out.

03:40:24.380 --> 03:40:26.260
Puts a laceration under his right eye.

03:40:26.260 --> 03:40:29.140
And just, you know, halfway beats his
brains out.

03:40:29.220 --> 03:40:30.100
Just knocks him silly.

03:40:31.280 --> 03:40:34.320
Corrine Christensen gathers him up,
calls a taxi cab.

03:40:34.820 --> 03:40:36.620
Rushes him off to the emergency room.

03:40:36.880 --> 03:40:41.020
Gets him revived and then takes him to her
apartment and nurses him for the next

03:40:41.020 --> 03:40:41.560
three days.

03:40:42.520 --> 03:40:45.240
Well, I guess the assault really had an
effect on him.

03:40:45.740 --> 03:40:50.220
And he must have had a pretty bad
concussion because he had real bouts of...

03:40:50.220 --> 03:40:53.540
During this time he had real bouts of
tremendous headaches and dizziness.

03:40:53.540 --> 03:40:58.880
During this three day period at Corrine's
house, with these headaches and bouts of

03:40:58.880 --> 03:41:03.380
dizziness, he conjured up in his mind that
she was the one that had planned to get

03:41:03.380 --> 03:41:04.060
him beat up.

03:41:04.240 --> 03:41:06.140
And he became madder and madder and
madder.

03:41:06.140 --> 03:41:10.540
This James Marino began to imagine that it
was his... this prostitute...

03:41:11.460 --> 03:41:17.320
This ex-girlfriend, who is a prostitute,
is the one that had conspired to have this

03:41:17.320 --> 03:41:18.580
big guy, was it at a bar?

03:41:18.940 --> 03:41:19.620
No, it was at a party.

03:41:19.700 --> 03:41:21.180
At a party to beat him up.

03:41:21.180 --> 03:41:25.240
And he began to, in his mind, imagine that
she was the one that had done this.

03:41:25.520 --> 03:41:25.520
Right.

03:41:25.880 --> 03:41:27.660
That never was proven.

03:41:27.960 --> 03:41:31.120
Did he have anything to go on,
or just what he cooked up in his mind?

03:41:31.120 --> 03:41:32.320
Just what he cooked up in his mind.

03:41:32.880 --> 03:41:38.360
And so, while she was gone one day,
he left her apartment and went to the

03:41:38.360 --> 03:41:40.340
other girl that he was in love with now.

03:41:40.420 --> 03:41:41.600
And stayed with her for a few days.

03:41:41.600 --> 03:41:42.160
His present girlfriend.

03:41:42.160 --> 03:41:49.000
A few days later, on Saturday,
November the 1st, 1986, Marino finds

03:41:49.000 --> 03:41:50.260
himself in a restaurant.

03:41:51.220 --> 03:41:54.560
And all of a sudden he has this big,
big bout of dizziness.

03:41:54.660 --> 03:41:56.400
I mean, it's really, really on him.

03:41:56.660 --> 03:42:00.120
So he calls his friend, the man that we're
talking about in the story here.

03:42:00.120 --> 03:42:01.340
The man that this whole story is about.

03:42:02.380 --> 03:42:04.600
Now, he didn't know anything about what
happened to James Marino.

03:42:04.660 --> 03:42:07.900
Because this had only been about a week,
and they hadn't seen each other.

03:42:07.900 --> 03:42:11.920
So he comes to the restaurant,
meeting James Marino, not knowing anything

03:42:11.920 --> 03:42:12.980
had gone on.

03:42:13.020 --> 03:42:13.860
That's the previous fight.

03:42:13.980 --> 03:42:14.760
The previous fight.

03:42:14.840 --> 03:42:16.520
He walks in and looks at his friend.

03:42:17.160 --> 03:42:18.940
And later on, he would say his only
friend.

03:42:19.060 --> 03:42:19.880
What happened to you?

03:42:19.920 --> 03:42:21.980
And man, I mean, it just hits him between
the eyes.

03:42:22.120 --> 03:42:23.540
What had happened to you?

03:42:23.620 --> 03:42:24.340
His teeth are knocked out.

03:42:24.340 --> 03:42:27.880
His teeth are knocked out, his back is
blue, he's like, you know, just sick and

03:42:27.880 --> 03:42:28.400
really bad.

03:42:28.780 --> 03:42:29.680
He's half dead, okay.

03:42:29.860 --> 03:42:33.780
So even though James Marino's voice was
slurred and everything, he got out the

03:42:33.780 --> 03:42:36.960
story about what happened, and he put it
on Corrine Christensen.

03:42:36.960 --> 03:42:40.320
Saying my ex-girlfriend was trying to get
revenge for me breaking up with her,

03:42:40.360 --> 03:42:41.820
and she had this big guy beating me up.

03:42:41.900 --> 03:42:47.060
And he had no proof to say that,
he just assumed that she was the one that

03:42:47.060 --> 03:42:47.740
was behind all this.

03:42:47.780 --> 03:42:48.120
Absolutely.

03:42:49.180 --> 03:42:53.660
So this man that we're telling the story
about, he gets super angry.

03:42:54.200 --> 03:42:57.500
He goes to the nearest phone, and he calls
Corrine Christensen.

03:42:58.140 --> 03:43:01.840
And he tells her, he says, I have a simple
question to ask you.

03:43:02.260 --> 03:43:03.380
Who hurt my friend?

03:43:03.480 --> 03:43:04.520
Why is my friend hurt?

03:43:05.000 --> 03:43:08.420
Well, for whatever reason, she started
evading the questions.

03:43:08.620 --> 03:43:11.740
You know, he's got this long track of
violence, she's probably getting scared,

03:43:11.920 --> 03:43:12.460
I don't know.

03:43:12.940 --> 03:43:18.560
But, she starts evading his questions,
and he says, okay, I've got two more

03:43:18.560 --> 03:43:22.440
questions to tell you, to ask you,
until I blow your head off.

03:43:22.640 --> 03:43:23.560
That was what he told her.

03:43:23.740 --> 03:43:25.560
That was the last thing he told her on the
phone.

03:43:26.000 --> 03:43:29.800
He goes back, gathers up Marino,
and they end up at her apartment.

03:43:29.940 --> 03:43:30.680
Goes to her apartment.

03:43:31.220 --> 03:43:36.940
Now, this is where the testimony,
the story, gets a little fuzzy,

03:43:37.160 --> 03:43:37.240
John.

03:43:37.940 --> 03:43:42.300
Because what happens is, this thing comes
to trial.

03:43:43.420 --> 03:43:45.580
There's a reason it comes to trial,
and we'll tell that in a minute.

03:43:46.280 --> 03:43:49.700
But, right now, we're going to give the
testimony about what Marino says.

03:43:50.740 --> 03:43:54.120
Marino says that he and this man went to
Corrine's house.

03:43:54.880 --> 03:43:59.440
When they got there, this man whips out a
gun, a .357 Magnum.

03:44:00.280 --> 03:44:02.900
And holds it to the head of Corrine.

03:44:03.500 --> 03:44:05.600
And starts yelling all kinds of
obscenities.

03:44:06.100 --> 03:44:10.240
And it was so bad that Marino thought he
was going to be killed as well.

03:44:10.540 --> 03:44:13.380
He was scared, and he started looking for
a way to get out.

03:44:13.700 --> 03:44:15.900
But it was a second apartment,
a second story apartment.

03:44:16.280 --> 03:44:18.600
Everything was buttoned down tight,
and he couldn't get out of the place.

03:44:19.180 --> 03:44:20.860
And so, he came back to the living room.

03:44:21.180 --> 03:44:25.500
Shortly after he came back to the living
room, the gun goes off.

03:44:26.420 --> 03:44:28.980
And Corrine gets her brains blowed out.

03:44:29.440 --> 03:44:31.920
And she's down on the floor, blood all
over the place.

03:44:33.440 --> 03:44:36.300
They leave, and the man...

03:44:36.300 --> 03:44:40.540
Okay, this is really gory, but it has
great significance that our people

03:44:40.540 --> 03:44:44.320
understand this and the history of this
man.

03:44:44.420 --> 03:44:45.540
And you'll tell them at the end why.

03:44:45.540 --> 03:44:46.180
I'm going to tell them.

03:44:46.880 --> 03:44:50.400
I can't stress enough that they've got to
get this story in the information packet.

03:44:50.480 --> 03:44:53.540
It is crucial to the evidence that we've
been uncovering.

03:44:55.900 --> 03:45:00.920
Nonetheless, Marino says that he and this
man, the man took them to nearby Monterey.

03:45:01.000 --> 03:45:03.420
Now, Monterey is about 35 miles or so from
Santa Cruz.

03:45:03.800 --> 03:45:09.000
They went to Monterey, and the man made
Marino take the .357 Magum and throw it

03:45:09.000 --> 03:45:09.500
off a pier.

03:45:10.220 --> 03:45:15.020
Now, later on, the police do collaborate
some of his story.

03:45:15.140 --> 03:45:17.900
They find the gun, they send divers down,
they do find the gun.

03:45:18.380 --> 03:45:20.900
And there was a few other things that
Marino had said that they were able to

03:45:20.900 --> 03:45:21.820
substantiate.

03:45:21.820 --> 03:45:25.260
There was a couple of things in his story,
though, that was real hazy.

03:45:25.360 --> 03:45:27.940
And I'm not going to give all of those
details because the people can read about

03:45:27.940 --> 03:45:28.180
it.

03:45:29.060 --> 03:45:30.740
And there's no sense in me telling all of
it.

03:45:32.740 --> 03:45:35.680
Then, the other man that we've been
talking about, they put him on the witness

03:45:35.680 --> 03:45:35.920
stand.

03:45:36.020 --> 03:45:42.420
Now, you know, John, that either through
watching TV or a friend in court or

03:45:42.420 --> 03:45:47.080
whatever, that every time you go to court,
the first thing they do is you have to

03:45:47.080 --> 03:45:49.580
raise your right hand, take the oath,
and then they say, state your name.

03:45:50.100 --> 03:45:52.900
So, the other guy gets on and,
of course, they ask him to state his name.

03:45:53.700 --> 03:45:54.780
You know what his name was, John?

03:45:55.760 --> 03:45:58.620
His name was Richard Bandler.

03:45:59.680 --> 03:46:01.880
The founder of NLP.

03:46:02.380 --> 03:46:03.100
Richard Bandler.

03:46:03.560 --> 03:46:05.600
The man that we've been uncovering all
this time.

03:46:05.640 --> 03:46:09.120
You know, we said there were two founders,
John Grinder and Richard Bandler.

03:46:09.220 --> 03:46:09.800
He's on all the books.

03:46:09.860 --> 03:46:12.400
He's on the first book, Frogs to
Princesses, Transformation.

03:46:12.680 --> 03:46:13.640
This is the history of this man.

03:46:13.640 --> 03:46:20.100
This is the history, the life story of the
father and founder of Neuro Linguistic

03:46:20.100 --> 03:46:21.060
Programming.

03:46:22.120 --> 03:46:23.200
God help us.

03:46:23.340 --> 03:46:28.860
Now, he gets on the stand and tells a
little bit different story.

03:46:30.080 --> 03:46:31.780
I'm not going to tell you how the trial
ends up.

03:46:31.860 --> 03:46:32.800
You have to read it for yourself.

03:46:33.380 --> 03:46:37.620
But, Terry, it's all printed and will be
in the documentation packet.

03:46:37.880 --> 03:46:39.440
Show me some pictures out of this now.

03:46:39.840 --> 03:46:41.180
Let's see some pictures of Bandler.

03:46:41.180 --> 03:46:42.060
Well, let me see.

03:46:42.280 --> 03:46:44.260
I'll show you a couple of pictures.

03:46:44.620 --> 03:46:45.660
Read some quotes out of this.

03:46:45.820 --> 03:46:48.100
How many pages is this story?

03:46:48.120 --> 03:46:50.280
It's about six or seven pages.

03:46:50.300 --> 03:46:51.380
What's the name of the article?

03:46:52.080 --> 03:46:52.960
The Bandler Method.

03:46:53.240 --> 03:46:54.500
The Bandler Method.

03:46:54.800 --> 03:46:55.100
Right.

03:46:56.600 --> 03:46:57.840
Here's a copy.

03:46:58.980 --> 03:47:00.900
This is the one that they drew up.

03:47:01.800 --> 03:47:02.740
Maybe I can show it here.

03:47:03.600 --> 03:47:05.560
Might be a little better on camera.

03:47:05.560 --> 03:47:06.260
Richard Bandler.

03:47:06.460 --> 03:47:10.520
Notice he's got a brain in one hand and a
gun in the other.

03:47:10.620 --> 03:47:12.180
And the blood splattered all over him.

03:47:13.000 --> 03:47:14.740
And then New Age Therapist.

03:47:15.300 --> 03:47:18.840
I mean, they even come out and say that
Neuro Linguistic Programming is New Age.

03:47:19.040 --> 03:47:21.740
I mean, that's just common knowledge.

03:47:22.220 --> 03:47:26.320
New Age Therapist Richard Bandler believed
that anyone could change with the right

03:47:26.320 --> 03:47:29.560
stimulus, even if that stimulus might be a
gun.

03:47:30.340 --> 03:47:33.900
You have to remember that this magazine is
not a New Age magazine.

03:47:33.900 --> 03:47:35.160
It doesn't purport to be New Age.

03:47:35.280 --> 03:47:40.200
Here is an actual picture of the father of
Neuro Linguistic Programming that over

03:47:40.200 --> 03:47:44.040
2,000 Seventh-day Adventist ministers have
been trained in.

03:47:44.600 --> 03:47:48.140
And hundreds have become instructors and
trained other Seventh-day Adventist

03:47:48.140 --> 03:47:51.260
ministers, church members, church elders.

03:47:51.760 --> 03:47:56.560
By 1982, Richard Bandler was falling
apart, drinking heavily and inhaling large

03:47:56.560 --> 03:47:57.540
amounts of cocaine.

03:47:58.060 --> 03:48:00.380
Still, he kept teaching NLP.

03:48:00.820 --> 03:48:01.660
We'll have to show the picture.

03:48:01.760 --> 03:48:02.540
It's impressive, isn't it?

03:48:02.540 --> 03:48:05.420
Oh, Terry, look at another quote from this
article.

03:48:05.940 --> 03:48:09.020
Brains were his toys, Bandler liked to
say.

03:48:09.300 --> 03:48:14.400
He compared humans to cars and computers
and spoke of programming them.

03:48:15.120 --> 03:48:18.700
They loved to confuse audiences,
flout convention.

03:48:19.100 --> 03:48:22.280
Everything we're going to tell you here is
a lie, they said.

03:48:22.800 --> 03:48:25.640
Here, he's coming out of the courthouse
alone.

03:48:25.840 --> 03:48:28.740
Oh, he's still teaching NLP.

03:48:31.460 --> 03:48:35.180
We're going to reprint this whole article
and put it in the documentation packet.

03:48:35.300 --> 03:48:36.940
Our people have to see this word for word.

03:48:38.060 --> 03:48:42.000
It's the father and founder of
neuro-linguistic programming that is being

03:48:42.000 --> 03:48:46.640
promoted more by the Seventh-day Adventist
church than any other church on the face

03:48:46.640 --> 03:48:47.140
of the earth.

03:48:47.460 --> 03:48:49.280
And this is the founder and father of it.

03:48:49.360 --> 03:48:50.160
Right there, folks.

03:48:50.480 --> 03:48:54.320
I mean, this man is on the level of
Charles Manson.

03:48:55.020 --> 03:48:58.720
And here we have this man, this founder
and father of neuro-linguistic programming

03:48:59.340 --> 03:49:03.640
and do you really believe that our
leadership will continue telling our

03:49:03.640 --> 03:49:08.540
people that somehow this is of God and
that this founder and father of NLP,

03:49:08.740 --> 03:49:13.320
Richard Bandler, John Grinder,
that this somehow can be taken out of this

03:49:13.320 --> 03:49:18.400
satanic foundation and make something holy
out of it?

03:49:18.460 --> 03:49:20.060
You know what scares me, John?

03:49:21.020 --> 03:49:27.520
What scares me is that we get these ideas
that when a person is being possessed by

03:49:27.520 --> 03:49:34.320
the devil, he's got to be something like a
poltergeist or out of the exorcist or

03:49:34.320 --> 03:49:36.000
something, something really ugly and
strange.

03:49:36.280 --> 03:49:37.040
Not necessarily.

03:49:37.620 --> 03:49:40.960
The devil comes in and possesses people
and makes them look real intellectual.

03:49:41.220 --> 03:49:44.820
He himself is an intellectual,
only second to the Godhead.

03:49:45.420 --> 03:49:46.760
And this is what he's doing.

03:49:46.860 --> 03:49:51.900
He's giving these people that have these
strange backgrounds, these backgrounds of

03:49:51.900 --> 03:49:57.860
promiscuity, these backgrounds of heavy
drug use, these backgrounds of violence,

03:49:58.780 --> 03:50:02.240
these backgrounds of mayhem and these sort
of things.

03:50:02.340 --> 03:50:05.200
He's giving them intellectual knowledge
and then using them in a professional

03:50:05.200 --> 03:50:09.580
society to gain control of the minds,
not only of the people out there that

03:50:09.580 --> 03:50:13.220
don't care anything about God,
but of our people inside our very church.

03:50:13.400 --> 03:50:16.280
We've just had an extensive interview with
Bob Trans.

03:50:16.340 --> 03:50:22.760
He's traced all this, shown how all this
ties in together with the conspiracy of

03:50:22.760 --> 03:50:26.440
the Roman Catholic Church to bring all
Protestant churches back to the Mother

03:50:26.440 --> 03:50:31.840
Church, foremost the Seventh-day Adventist
Church, how that these new-age techniques

03:50:31.840 --> 03:50:35.340
of NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming,
now you have shown our Adventist people,

03:50:35.620 --> 03:50:38.980
the founder and father of Neuro-Linguistic
Programming, where it all comes from.

03:50:39.280 --> 03:50:40.660
This is absolutely mind-boggling.

03:50:40.760 --> 03:50:42.560
We've given our people so much
information.

03:50:43.040 --> 03:50:46.000
I appreciate the research that you have
done in bringing this to us, Terry.

03:50:46.240 --> 03:50:49.440
I don't know if you have anything in
closing in dealing with this NLP,

03:50:49.600 --> 03:50:56.000
but I want you now to go into what is the
update on what is going on in your old

03:50:56.000 --> 03:50:57.320
church at Shady Point, Oregon.

03:50:57.620 --> 03:51:01.460
Give us a quick tightening this...

03:51:02.800 --> 03:51:03.400
Recap it.

03:51:03.820 --> 03:51:04.740
That's the word I want.

03:51:04.920 --> 03:51:09.820
To cap this story of Richard Bandler,
the founder of NLP, and then get into the

03:51:09.820 --> 03:51:11.240
situation at Shady Point.

03:51:11.280 --> 03:51:14.240
Well, you know, we brought this book up on
one of the other videos, Becoming a Master

03:51:14.240 --> 03:51:14.660
Student.

03:51:14.820 --> 03:51:15.300
Oh, yes.

03:51:15.540 --> 03:51:19.500
And we're going to show some footage of a
couple of things that will help tie this

03:51:19.500 --> 03:51:19.940
all together.

03:51:19.940 --> 03:51:21.140
But in the back...

03:51:21.140 --> 03:51:23.600
We had a friend that said, Do you need to
look at the back of the book?

03:51:24.200 --> 03:51:26.280
Look at the back of the book in the
bibliography.

03:51:26.540 --> 03:51:27.640
Now, what's the bibliography?

03:51:27.680 --> 03:51:29.240
Give the definition for bibliography.

03:51:29.240 --> 03:51:32.800
Well, the bibliography, according to the
dictionary in layman's terms, means

03:51:32.800 --> 03:51:37.800
anything that you would use from different
authors to use as resource material.

03:51:37.940 --> 03:51:38.160
Yes.

03:51:38.520 --> 03:51:38.760
Okay?

03:51:39.080 --> 03:51:43.140
And so in the back of the Becoming a
Master Student book, you have the

03:51:43.140 --> 03:51:46.740
bibliography that names the different
authors and books that they used.

03:51:47.120 --> 03:51:49.240
Now, let's just make it real clear here.

03:51:50.160 --> 03:51:53.880
These books that are given under the
bibliography in the back of Becoming a

03:51:53.880 --> 03:51:58.580
Master Student, which is taught at many of
our colleges, and we have even found more

03:51:58.580 --> 03:52:02.880
colleges than what was listed on our
original that are teaching from Becoming a

03:52:02.880 --> 03:52:08.900
Master Student, that this is the source
material that was used to put together on

03:52:08.900 --> 03:52:09.800
Becoming a Master Student.

03:52:09.900 --> 03:52:10.280
Read it.

03:52:10.640 --> 03:52:16.100
Well, I've just got to tell you that the
very second person listed is Richard

03:52:16.100 --> 03:52:17.220
Bandler.

03:52:17.920 --> 03:52:20.940
And John Grinder, who teaches
Neurolinguistic Programming.

03:52:22.000 --> 03:52:29.600
So, this man right here, this sicko on the
level with Charles Manson, that was the

03:52:29.600 --> 03:52:33.780
father and founder of Neurolinguistic
Programming, was part of the source

03:52:33.780 --> 03:52:37.340
material that made up on Becoming a Master
Student.

03:52:37.440 --> 03:52:42.460
Yes, and remember Virginia Sontag that I
told you about, that took him under his

03:52:42.460 --> 03:52:44.780
arm and taught him some things?

03:52:45.060 --> 03:52:46.900
She's also one of the source material
right here.

03:52:46.900 --> 03:52:48.260
She's also the source material.

03:52:49.940 --> 03:52:50.220
Okay.

03:52:50.580 --> 03:52:52.660
And we're going to show some footage on
this that we have.

03:52:53.520 --> 03:52:58.160
But Kathy and I, you know that we're from
Oregon, not anymore, but you're from

03:52:58.160 --> 03:52:59.060
Florida now.

03:52:59.720 --> 03:53:00.260
And glad to be.

03:53:00.820 --> 03:53:02.300
But we were in Oregon at the time.

03:53:02.860 --> 03:53:06.240
And in Oregon, there was a guru that came.

03:53:06.540 --> 03:53:09.180
And his name was the Bhagwan Rajneesh.

03:53:09.440 --> 03:53:12.660
Oh, everybody saw him and all his Rolls
Royces.

03:53:12.900 --> 03:53:14.920
Yes, he had a hundred Rolls Royces.

03:53:19.940 --> 03:53:20.080
Yes, he did.

03:53:20.420 --> 03:53:21.240
Well, guess what?

03:53:21.720 --> 03:53:23.380
He's also used as one of the sources.

03:53:23.900 --> 03:53:24.700
And he's right here.

03:53:25.020 --> 03:53:28.720
And we're going to show the people some
footage about what kind of mind control

03:53:28.720 --> 03:53:29.020
he's in.

03:53:29.080 --> 03:53:30.720
And I'm telling you, it is sick.

03:53:30.900 --> 03:53:39.240
Okay, you've got some video showing the
commune, Bhagwan Rajneesh, and he is part

03:53:39.240 --> 03:53:41.880
of the source material that on Becoming a
Master Student.

03:53:42.160 --> 03:53:51.360
So let's now view the home, Bhagwan
Rajneesh, for Becoming a Master Student.

03:53:52.760 --> 03:53:57.460
Rajneesh is one of India's most
controversial gurus, largely because of

03:53:57.460 --> 03:54:02.640
his endorsement of shocking sexual
practices as a prerequisite for salvation.

03:54:07.470 --> 03:54:12.890
His brand of yoga, called dynamic
meditation, is a new age combination of

03:54:12.890 --> 03:54:14.300
Hinduism and psychotherapies.

03:54:15.950 --> 03:54:19.750
This exercise, involving rigorous
breathing and hyperventilation,

03:54:19.750 --> 03:54:26.390
is designed to arouse the serpent force,
called kundalini, which the gurus believe

03:54:26.390 --> 03:54:28.710
lies coiled at the base of the spine.

03:54:37.970 --> 03:54:40.410
I did dynamic meditation every day.

03:54:40.790 --> 03:54:42.710
We also called it kundalini meditation.

03:54:43.710 --> 03:54:48.230
It starts off with a cathartic breathing,
and the reason for it is just to move your

03:54:48.230 --> 03:54:52.730
energy and to get you out of your head and
into your body, and you just breathe.

03:55:07.570 --> 03:55:11.850
The next phase, the screaming phase of
dynamic meditation, feels like when you

03:55:11.850 --> 03:55:15.470
finally had an opportunity to throw a
tantrum when you were a little kid.

03:55:43.440 --> 03:55:47.660
By the time you get to the third phase of
jumping up and down and yelling hoo,

03:55:47.940 --> 03:55:52.280
you're hardly there at all, and so it's
pretty hard to remember what happens when

03:55:52.280 --> 03:55:52.680
you're there.

03:55:53.680 --> 03:55:57.000
I guess the closest thing I can associate
it with is mindlessness.

03:55:57.940 --> 03:56:00.860
You get to a place where your mind
actually leaves your body.

03:56:01.720 --> 03:56:05.760
Your body's just jumping up and down and
your voice from your gut is yelling hoo,

03:56:06.320 --> 03:56:07.920
and you're not doing it anymore.

03:56:21.770 --> 03:56:26.530
The next phase, someone yells stop,
and you've just been doing 30 minutes of

03:56:26.530 --> 03:56:27.790
intense catharsis.

03:56:28.570 --> 03:56:32.590
And what happens after being in such
incredibly intense movement for so long is

03:56:32.590 --> 03:56:35.110
just a feeling of peacefulness and
stillness.

03:56:36.410 --> 03:56:42.210
My mind actually stops, and I feel a
oneness with the whole universe.

03:56:44.750 --> 03:56:48.790
There have been glowing reports published
giving credit to the gurus and their

03:56:48.790 --> 03:56:54.050
pseudo-psychological techniques,
including to mention the thousands of

03:56:54.050 --> 03:57:01.210
cases of emotional and mental breakdowns,
insanity, suicide, beatings, murder,

03:57:01.610 --> 03:57:05.490
rapes, going on in guru centers,
various guru centers worldwide.

03:57:06.070 --> 03:57:09.990
It is alarming to realize these dangerous
techniques for enlightenment are being

03:57:09.990 --> 03:57:15.510
incorporated in psychotherapies,
self-help seminars, and are even being

03:57:15.510 --> 03:57:19.850
accepted in mainstream Protestant and
Catholic churches and seminaries.

03:57:21.130 --> 03:57:23.050
Well, that was very interesting.

03:57:23.570 --> 03:57:27.590
I believe that our Adventist people are
beginning to see things as they are.

03:57:27.950 --> 03:57:30.490
And if they can't, I don't know what more
we can do, Terry.

03:57:30.710 --> 03:57:33.050
Well, like we've always said, video don't
lie.

03:57:33.190 --> 03:57:36.790
And if the people just saw what was on the
video, you have to literally be out of

03:57:36.790 --> 03:57:38.110
your mind to follow these guys.

03:57:38.110 --> 03:57:39.450
Just like those people were.

03:57:39.590 --> 03:57:39.950
That's right.

03:57:40.030 --> 03:57:40.430
Unbelievable.

03:57:40.730 --> 03:57:42.890
This is the source material.

03:57:43.150 --> 03:57:47.250
Instead of the Bible and the spirit of
prophecy, this is the source material we

03:57:47.250 --> 03:57:51.890
are going to to train our students in our
Seventh-day Adventist colleges.

03:57:52.130 --> 03:57:53.010
God help us.

03:57:53.110 --> 03:57:54.130
What have we become?

03:57:54.630 --> 03:57:57.710
See, we're not just going to Babylon and
drinking out of their wells.

03:57:57.790 --> 03:57:58.710
No, this is worse than Babylon.

03:57:58.830 --> 03:58:01.050
We're going to the sewers of the occult.

03:58:01.070 --> 03:58:02.550
This is the sewer of the occult.

03:58:02.630 --> 03:58:03.150
I like it.

03:58:03.170 --> 03:58:04.230
That's exactly what it is.

03:58:04.690 --> 03:58:10.070
Instead of going to Babylon and the broken
cisterns, we've gone to the sewers of the

03:58:10.070 --> 03:58:10.290
occult.

03:58:10.590 --> 03:58:11.610
And we're just drinking freely.

03:58:15.450 --> 03:58:16.190
What are you doing now in Shady Point?

03:58:16.350 --> 03:58:20.530
Well, I called one of my friends out there
a couple of weeks back.

03:58:20.630 --> 03:58:25.730
And what has happened since we've left is,
of course, they've stripped everybody that

03:58:25.730 --> 03:58:31.750
refused, because of their conscience,
refused to prove that they were paying

03:58:31.750 --> 03:58:37.330
tithe to the local church, which would be
Shady Point, and to the local conference.

03:58:37.510 --> 03:58:38.410
If you cannot...

03:58:38.410 --> 03:58:44.150
Now, you and Bob mentioned this earlier
that you would have to show your checkbook

03:58:44.150 --> 03:58:47.350
to prove that you're paying the money to
the church.

03:58:47.430 --> 03:58:48.650
That's one of the Catholic techniques.

03:58:48.650 --> 03:58:55.210
Well, this is exactly what Phil Dunham
told me and Kathy.

03:58:55.370 --> 03:58:55.750
Exactly.

03:58:56.210 --> 03:58:57.130
As a matter of fact, I questioned him
about it.

03:58:57.150 --> 03:58:57.930
I said, now, wait a minute.

03:58:58.990 --> 03:59:03.850
You're telling me that you will not take a
Christian man's word, whether he's a tithe

03:59:03.850 --> 03:59:04.050
payer.

03:59:04.170 --> 03:59:08.150
I have to show you a receipt to prove what
I'm saying.

03:59:08.230 --> 03:59:10.250
He said, that's right, or you cannot hold
office in the church.

03:59:10.290 --> 03:59:11.230
This is a Catholic technique.

03:59:11.670 --> 03:59:13.210
Bob showed that it's right out of...

03:59:14.150 --> 03:59:15.510
The Catholic history of the...

03:59:15.510 --> 03:59:17.570
Methods that they use for control of the
lady.

03:59:17.990 --> 03:59:22.970
Now, in that celebration number seven,
video number seven, we saw Elder Phil

03:59:22.970 --> 03:59:26.130
Dunham had been sent down from the
conference and it looked like that you all

03:59:26.130 --> 03:59:27.350
routed him pretty good.

03:59:27.890 --> 03:59:28.930
And left the next day.

03:59:28.990 --> 03:59:33.010
Yeah, but now you say, since you have
left, that they have come in and have

03:59:33.010 --> 03:59:37.250
taken control and gotten out of office all
the people who dared to stand against

03:59:37.250 --> 03:59:37.370
them.

03:59:37.430 --> 03:59:38.450
How did they do that, Terry?

03:59:38.570 --> 03:59:41.750
Well, they just stripped them and would
not allow them to get up front or anything

03:59:41.750 --> 03:59:42.210
like that.

03:59:44.150 --> 03:59:45.110
How did they allow that to happen?

03:59:45.790 --> 03:59:47.570
Well, I'm not there, so I don't know.

03:59:48.430 --> 03:59:49.710
I will say this though.

03:59:50.190 --> 03:59:51.310
They went one step further.

03:59:51.510 --> 03:59:55.250
And I just got to say, they tried to do
this in another class that I was in once

03:59:55.250 --> 03:59:56.350
before and I didn't let it happen.

03:59:56.430 --> 03:59:59.590
So I can say in all Christian conscience,
I wouldn't have let it happen without a

03:59:59.590 --> 03:59:59.810
fight.

04:00:00.310 --> 04:00:01.110
And yet I'm not there.

04:00:01.350 --> 04:00:05.850
And I know the backgrounds of these people
and they are doing the best they can under

04:00:05.850 --> 04:00:06.590
the circumstances.

04:00:06.690 --> 04:00:08.090
So I don't want to discourage them.

04:00:09.030 --> 04:00:10.930
But although I've got to encourage our
people

04:00:14.530 --> 04:00:18.230
to stand for the truth that Jesus Christ
has left us as Adventist people.

04:00:18.450 --> 04:00:21.250
Our prophet told us that this time would
come, Terry.

04:00:21.450 --> 04:00:23.590
It's time for God's people to stand up.

04:00:24.090 --> 04:00:27.050
You know, 3RH 275, look what she says.

04:00:27.290 --> 04:00:33.030
If the cords are drawn much tighter,
if the rules are made much finer,

04:00:33.670 --> 04:00:38.970
if men continue to bind their fellow
laborers closer and closer to the

04:00:38.970 --> 04:00:45.390
commandments of men, many will be stirred
by the Spirit of God to break every

04:00:45.390 --> 04:00:48.910
shackle and assert their liberty in Christ
Jesus.

04:00:49.150 --> 04:00:50.850
That time is now.

04:00:51.050 --> 04:00:55.970
It's time now for God's people to stand up
and to assert their liberty in Christ

04:00:55.970 --> 04:00:56.390
Jesus.

04:00:56.850 --> 04:00:59.950
That reminds me of what Bob read earlier
about Luther.

04:01:00.090 --> 04:01:03.190
Call me anything you want, but I'm going
forward if it's by myself.

04:01:03.670 --> 04:01:06.670
Not because we're prideful, not because we
think we're anybody, but because we know

04:01:06.670 --> 04:01:08.950
who Jesus Christ is and we know the time
in which we live.

04:01:09.550 --> 04:01:11.770
So what's happening to the Shady Point
Church?

04:01:14.010 --> 04:01:20.570
I guess folks of all their church offices
would not allow them to even think about

04:01:20.570 --> 04:01:22.930
getting involved in a personal way
anymore.

04:01:23.830 --> 04:01:27.810
I guess the next thing they did was come
right into their Sabbath school class.

04:01:28.110 --> 04:01:34.010
Now they had already stripped the Sabbath
school teacher of that class, of his

04:01:34.010 --> 04:01:34.390
office.

04:01:35.650 --> 04:01:44.910
And I guess the pastor and the doctor came
in and just told this class that they

04:01:44.910 --> 04:01:46.090
couldn't have a teacher anymore.

04:01:46.190 --> 04:01:48.050
And they said, well that's okay,
we'll just all teach each other.

04:01:48.850 --> 04:01:52.510
And then they came back again and they
just told them, no, you can't.

04:01:52.590 --> 04:01:53.410
You are not allowed.

04:01:53.470 --> 04:01:55.370
You're not going to be allowed to have a
class anymore.

04:01:55.510 --> 04:01:56.390
You are out of here.

04:01:57.090 --> 04:02:00.550
You have to come back into the main
sanctuary and get under the organized

04:02:00.550 --> 04:02:00.990
classes.

04:02:01.130 --> 04:02:05.170
We are not going to allow you to
congregate back here and keep stirring up

04:02:05.170 --> 04:02:05.910
amongst yourselves.

04:02:07.210 --> 04:02:12.470
Now, I have to admit, that if I had been
there, John, and I have done this once

04:02:12.470 --> 04:02:16.950
before, I would have told that doctor,
by the way, this is the same doctor that

04:02:16.950 --> 04:02:20.790
faxed his vote in from Arizona to get me
kicked out of that Jiu-Jitsu fellowship.

04:02:21.130 --> 04:02:21.950
Faxed it in, yeah.

04:02:23.210 --> 04:02:24.650
I thought that was kind of funny.

04:02:27.070 --> 04:02:32.650
Anyway, I would have told this doctor that
either sit down and learn something or go

04:02:32.650 --> 04:02:34.350
back in the other room, because we weren't
budging.

04:02:35.910 --> 04:02:41.830
You know, I don't know, sometimes we
shouldn't fight, but there are other times

04:02:41.830 --> 04:02:43.790
when you just can't give the church away.

04:02:44.670 --> 04:02:46.170
But I wasn't there.

04:02:46.430 --> 04:02:55.050
What happened was, they decided to meet in
a grange that is not too far away from the

04:02:55.050 --> 04:02:55.250
church.

04:02:55.550 --> 04:02:58.530
And actually, at this time, John,
unless things have changed within the last

04:02:58.530 --> 04:03:03.550
week, they have more people that are
coming out of Shady Point Church.

04:03:03.610 --> 04:03:06.910
They have more people coming out of the
grange than they left in the church.

04:03:07.790 --> 04:03:10.310
And so now the few people that are
conference, they have what I call

04:03:10.310 --> 04:03:11.230
conference cancer.

04:03:11.850 --> 04:03:12.650
They are having to support.

04:03:13.090 --> 04:03:14.110
Okay, support it then.

04:03:14.150 --> 04:03:15.950
If you are going to do it and run it,
run it.

04:03:16.130 --> 04:03:19.630
And the other people, they are bringing in
speakers and they are congregating there

04:03:19.630 --> 04:03:22.010
at the grange and carrying on.

04:03:22.250 --> 04:03:28.390
You know, I know that the Oregon
Conference leadership is watching this

04:03:28.390 --> 04:03:28.710
video.

04:03:28.830 --> 04:03:32.230
Don Jenkinson has said that he watches all
the videos that come out of this ministry.

04:03:35.910 --> 04:03:38.330
And he says, I have already heard threats
that they are going to try to remove my

04:03:38.330 --> 04:03:39.530
membership without telling me.

04:03:39.870 --> 04:03:41.310
That is the same thing that Bob said.

04:03:43.130 --> 04:03:44.310
So we are aware of this.

04:03:44.710 --> 04:03:49.170
I just want to tell the Oregon Conference
leadership, you may think that you have

04:03:49.170 --> 04:03:52.930
won the battle at Shady Point,
but you have lost the war.

04:03:53.410 --> 04:03:58.390
You know, all that you are doing is waking
up the Adventist laity.

04:03:58.590 --> 04:03:59.050
That is all.

04:03:59.110 --> 04:04:00.830
You are waking up a sleeping giant.

04:04:01.050 --> 04:04:02.790
I just watched Torah, Torah, Torah.

04:04:05.910 --> 04:04:08.030
On the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

04:04:08.190 --> 04:04:11.910
This week, December 7, 1991 is the 50th
anniversary of the bombing of Pearl

04:04:11.910 --> 04:04:12.230
Harbor.

04:04:12.730 --> 04:04:17.550
And you know, Admiral Yamamoto said when
the planes were coming back to the

04:04:17.550 --> 04:04:21.410
carriers from Pearl Harbor, he turned to
his assistant and said, I am afraid all

04:04:21.410 --> 04:04:24.070
that we have done is awakened a sleeping
giant.

04:04:24.330 --> 04:04:27.990
And let me tell you, conference men,
all you have done is awakened the sleeping

04:04:27.990 --> 04:04:31.290
giant of the Adventist laity and you are
going to lose the war.

04:04:31.350 --> 04:04:32.130
I promise you.

04:04:35.910 --> 04:04:40.090
The days of the Adventist laity standing
up and asserting their liberty in Christ

04:04:40.090 --> 04:04:45.570
Jesus and no longer allowing this
conference tyranny of coming in and

04:04:45.570 --> 04:04:48.170
controlling the laity, those days are
over.

04:04:48.350 --> 04:04:53.550
They may have won a battle at Shady Point,
but they are going to lose the war.

04:04:54.090 --> 04:05:00.330
You know, John, what excites me,
and I must say, I have said it at least a

04:05:00.330 --> 04:05:04.370
dozen times, the historic Adventist heart
will break a thousand times between here

04:05:04.370 --> 04:05:04.770
and the gate.

04:05:04.870 --> 04:05:05.730
It is going to happen.

04:05:05.830 --> 04:05:06.650
We are going to be disappointed.

04:05:06.750 --> 04:05:08.430
Nobody likes to see what is going on.

04:05:09.290 --> 04:05:12.750
My heart breaks to see our beloved church
do what it is doing.

04:05:13.190 --> 04:05:16.350
But on the other side of the coin,
what excites me, John, is we are about

04:05:16.350 --> 04:05:18.270
ready to see God work for His people.

04:05:18.850 --> 04:05:24.590
And though we may be fewer in number,
we are stronger on the battlefield.

04:05:24.750 --> 04:05:28.890
Not because we are anybody, but because we
know that we are not anybody and we know

04:05:28.890 --> 04:05:29.850
somebody that is everybody.

04:05:33.750 --> 04:05:35.430
God says that we will be amazed.

04:05:35.570 --> 04:05:39.570
God's people will be amazed in the last
days when God takes the reins into His

04:05:39.570 --> 04:05:42.930
hands, the simple means that He uses to
perfect His work in righteousness.

04:05:43.130 --> 04:05:45.250
We are seeing that right now.

04:05:45.550 --> 04:05:49.730
And God is going to use simple means by
men and women from every walk of life.

04:05:49.950 --> 04:05:51.470
The laity are going to finish this work.

04:05:51.750 --> 04:05:54.250
We are going to have to be the ones to
preach the three angels' message to the

04:05:54.250 --> 04:05:54.450
world.

04:05:54.670 --> 04:05:58.130
We are going to be the ones that God is
going to raise up to finish this work.

04:05:58.430 --> 04:06:00.190
Because if not us, who?

04:06:00.410 --> 04:06:02.210
If not now, when?

04:06:03.750 --> 04:06:04.330
When it's us, John.

04:06:04.330 --> 04:06:07.370
Terry, thank you for the research you've
done bringing us up to date.

04:06:07.710 --> 04:06:10.430
I want you to lead us in prayer at the
closing of this video.

04:06:10.750 --> 04:06:11.130
Let's kneel.

04:06:14.650 --> 04:06:20.910
Heavenly Father, once again we come to you
admitting our weaknesses, knowing we are

04:06:20.910 --> 04:06:21.830
but mere dust.

04:06:23.350 --> 04:06:28.450
Lord, we so appreciate that we serve a
loving God who watches and cares over the

04:06:28.450 --> 04:06:29.370
least of His children.

04:06:30.450 --> 04:06:35.310
And Lord, even though we are not worthy we
know that Your Son is.

04:06:36.010 --> 04:06:42.890
We ask that You would give us Your people
the courage, the fortitude it takes at

04:06:42.890 --> 04:06:44.230
this time to take a stand.

04:06:44.310 --> 04:06:46.070
Help us not to deny our faith.

04:06:47.030 --> 04:06:48.250
Help us not to be ashamed.

04:06:48.990 --> 04:06:51.910
But help us to be, in the right sense,
proud.

04:06:52.490 --> 04:06:56.390
Help us to know what it means to be a
Seventh-day Adventist Christian,

04:06:56.510 --> 04:06:59.090
the highest calling that any human being
can receive.

04:06:59.750 --> 04:07:03.630
Help us to be simplistic enough to follow
Thee every step of the way.

04:07:04.150 --> 04:07:06.110
Lord, we even pray for our enemies.

04:07:06.290 --> 04:07:12.330
Somehow, if it can happen, we ask that You
would turn things around at least in

04:07:12.330 --> 04:07:12.850
individuals.

04:07:13.890 --> 04:07:15.330
We know that there are good men in the
camp.

04:07:15.430 --> 04:07:18.630
We even know that there are souls in the
camp that will eventually become Paul's.

04:07:19.470 --> 04:07:24.830
But Lord, help us to see the times in
which we live and help us to pick up that

04:07:24.830 --> 04:07:26.370
blood-stained banner and march forward.

04:07:27.390 --> 04:07:29.990
Bless Your people now, as we close this
tape.

04:07:30.770 --> 04:07:34.970
May they have the knowledge that You want
them to have.

04:07:35.530 --> 04:07:37.210
May we have the balance that we need.

04:07:37.630 --> 04:07:40.450
May we have the discernment to walk
through this minefield.

04:07:41.070 --> 04:07:42.950
And may we keep our eyes on the bigger
picture.

04:07:43.090 --> 04:07:46.830
And one day soon, see Your Son,
Jesus, come in the clouds of heaven,

04:07:46.990 --> 04:07:48.850
for we pray these things in His precious
name.

04:07:49.130 --> 04:07:49.430
Amen.

04:07:52.080 --> 04:07:56.140
Well, I just want to tell our viewers that
they need to get this documentation

04:07:56.140 --> 04:07:56.680
package.

04:07:56.800 --> 04:07:57.160
Absolutely.

04:08:05.300 --> 04:08:11.620
Bob Trebs has shown us for a $10 gift to
this ministry or more, you need to have

04:08:11.620 --> 04:08:12.960
this documentation packet.

04:08:13.340 --> 04:08:14.880
You know, you've watched many of these
videos.

04:08:14.980 --> 04:08:16.340
I'm sure that they know our address.

04:08:17.060 --> 04:08:19.520
But it's Prophecy Countdown, Box 1844.

04:08:19.680 --> 04:08:20.900
Don't you like that box number?

04:08:21.040 --> 04:08:21.500
I like that.

04:08:21.680 --> 04:08:22.460
It kind of rings a bell.

04:08:23.920 --> 04:08:26.800
Box 1844, Grand Island, Florida.

04:08:27.020 --> 04:08:29.320
And the zip is 327...

04:08:29.320 --> 04:08:29.840
Oh, no!

04:08:31.080 --> 04:08:31.600
Thank you.

04:08:31.620 --> 04:08:34.520
I keep getting Mount Dora mixed up with
Grand Island.

04:08:35.660 --> 04:08:36.100
32735.

04:08:36.780 --> 04:08:38.480
And let us hear from you folks.

04:08:38.620 --> 04:08:42.260
We really appreciate your words of
encouragement and your letters and your

04:08:42.260 --> 04:08:43.240
support for us.

04:08:43.460 --> 04:08:46.120
Terry, thank you for being here.

04:08:46.220 --> 04:08:49.800
My brother in Christ that I just love and
appreciate so very much.

04:08:49.960 --> 04:08:53.800
It's good working with you and we're going
to keep our Adventist people updated with

04:08:53.800 --> 04:08:54.660
what is going on.

04:08:54.960 --> 04:08:57.760
Let me say this just right at the very
end.

04:08:57.940 --> 04:08:59.360
The little old Ryan that wrote the letter.

04:08:59.600 --> 04:09:01.500
Yeah, Ryan, I never knew it could be so
good.

04:09:03.380 --> 04:09:04.100
Bless your heart.

04:09:04.220 --> 04:09:04.760
Thank you, Terry.

04:09:06.940 --> 04:09:08.660
Don't hit that rewind button yet.

04:09:08.740 --> 04:09:12.020
There's a whole lot going on real fast,
folks, that you need to know about.

04:09:12.420 --> 04:09:15.220
We'll bring you up to date at the end of
the credit roll in just a few moments,

04:09:15.280 --> 04:09:15.880
so stay tuned.

04:10:26.840 --> 04:10:30.640
We have some important new information
that Bob Trebs needs to bring you up to

04:10:30.640 --> 04:10:32.300
date on that we have to let you know.

04:10:32.800 --> 04:10:33.520
Bob's on the phone.

04:10:33.620 --> 04:10:34.660
I want him to tell you.

04:10:37.620 --> 04:10:38.020
John?

04:10:38.200 --> 04:10:38.480
Yes.

04:10:38.700 --> 04:10:40.240
Bob Trebs is on line one.

04:10:40.420 --> 04:10:40.820
Thank you.

04:10:42.120 --> 04:10:42.520
Bob Trebs is on line one.

04:10:42.520 --> 04:10:44.220
Hello, Bob, this is John Osborne.

04:10:44.480 --> 04:10:45.660
Hi, John, how are you?

04:10:45.800 --> 04:10:46.480
I'm just fine.

04:10:46.560 --> 04:10:47.740
Appreciate so much your calling.

04:10:47.860 --> 04:10:50.980
I tell you, I can't believe the stuff that
has happened just in the short time since

04:10:50.980 --> 04:10:53.600
we have videotaped together in the studio
here.

04:10:53.680 --> 04:10:56.720
Now, we taped this the first week of
December.

04:10:56.860 --> 04:10:58.420
It's now the first week in January.

04:10:58.640 --> 04:11:00.160
The holidays kind of set us back.

04:11:00.480 --> 04:11:03.060
But we're ready to take this edited master
to the duplicators.

04:11:03.400 --> 04:11:06.100
But just found out that you have got some
new startling information.

04:11:06.320 --> 04:11:08.780
How about bringing us up to date before we
finish this tape?

04:11:09.160 --> 04:11:09.780
Sure, John.

04:11:10.620 --> 04:11:14.780
We have had a massive activity going on.

04:11:14.920 --> 04:11:21.200
We published in October in Freedom's Ring
the fact that a prominent SDA systematic

04:11:21.200 --> 04:11:26.900
theologian representing the SDA church had
signed, along with Roman Catholics and 100

04:11:26.900 --> 04:11:30.880
theologians, the most significant
ecumenical document the World Council of

04:11:30.880 --> 04:11:36.340
Churches has ever produced, entitled The
Baptism of Eucharist and Ministry.

04:11:37.020 --> 04:11:42.280
And, of course, this is of great interest
to Adventists because Ellen White says in

04:11:42.280 --> 04:11:48.880
Great Controversy 444-445 that there is a
growing sentiment in favor of a union

04:11:48.880 --> 04:11:51.180
based upon common points of doctrine.

04:11:51.900 --> 04:11:56.000
And then a little later she says when this
shall be gained then in the effort to

04:11:56.000 --> 04:12:00.480
secure complete uniformity it will be only
a step to the resort to force.

04:12:00.640 --> 04:12:02.060
That's exactly where we are.

04:12:04.680 --> 04:12:08.680
If the United States uniting upon such
points of doctrine as are held by them in

04:12:08.680 --> 04:12:12.500
common shall influence a state to enforce
their decrees and sustain their

04:12:12.500 --> 04:12:16.280
institutions then a Protestant America
will have formed an image of the Roman

04:12:16.280 --> 04:12:16.860
hierarchy.

04:12:17.120 --> 04:12:18.180
What page in Great Controversy is that?

04:12:18.180 --> 04:12:19.980
That was 444-445.

04:12:20.440 --> 04:12:25.000
And that's why this is so significant
because the Baptism, Eucharist,

04:12:25.100 --> 04:12:29.480
and Ministry document is the most
significant document that the World

04:12:29.480 --> 04:12:30.420
Council of Churches

04:12:34.680 --> 04:12:35.000
has ever seen.

04:12:35.000 --> 04:12:38.240
from the back of the Baptism, Eucharist,
and Ministry document.

04:12:38.380 --> 04:12:41.220
I sent down that document to you,
John.

04:12:41.280 --> 04:12:43.200
I'm holding it right here in my hand,
Bob.

04:12:43.260 --> 04:12:47.900
Okay, I think it's important to even look
at what is on the back page there

04:12:48.880 --> 04:12:51.560
including each of those little short
paragraphs.

04:12:51.960 --> 04:12:57.200
It says the statement published here marks
a major advance in the ecumenical journey.

04:12:57.520 --> 04:13:01.160
The result of a 50-year process of study
and consultation.

04:13:04.680 --> 04:13:08.860
It represents the theological convergence
that has been achieved through decades of

04:13:08.860 --> 04:13:11.040
dialogue under the guidance of the Holy
Spirit.

04:13:11.520 --> 04:13:17.440
So they're acknowledging that this is the
great development in ecumenical

04:13:17.440 --> 04:13:17.940
convergence.

04:13:18.160 --> 04:13:19.480
You've got to read the next paragraph.

04:13:19.800 --> 04:13:20.980
Right, the next one.

04:13:21.360 --> 04:13:25.840
Over 100 theologians met in Lima,
Peru in January 1982.

04:13:26.300 --> 04:13:32.340
And John, I have the report of the
Commission on Faith and Order in Lima,

04:13:32.500 --> 04:13:33.820
Peru right in my hands here.

04:13:34.680 --> 04:13:37.020
The Visible Unity, the study papers and
reports.

04:13:37.700 --> 04:13:39.760
And I counted the number.

04:13:39.920 --> 04:13:45.660
There were 105 theologians that were there
gathered.

04:13:45.780 --> 04:13:47.600
You've got that document in your hand?

04:13:48.140 --> 04:13:52.520
Well, I have the report of the study
papers and reports made at Lima,

04:13:52.660 --> 04:13:52.880
Peru.

04:13:52.940 --> 04:13:53.960
Where did you get all that?

04:13:54.220 --> 04:13:55.920
Oh, from the World Council of Churches.

04:13:55.980 --> 04:13:56.960
Bless your heart.

04:13:57.360 --> 04:14:00.460
Anyway, reading on there, John,
it says they recommended

04:14:04.680 --> 04:14:06.160
that everyone submit this agreed
statement.

04:14:06.320 --> 04:14:07.940
That means everyone that was there.

04:14:08.500 --> 04:14:11.880
The Lima text for the common study and
official response to the churches.

04:14:12.040 --> 04:14:16.760
Now I'm holding, you can't see me right
now, John, but I'm holding in my hand the

04:14:16.760 --> 04:14:23.060
Faith and Order 1985-1989 Commission
meeting at Budapest 1989.

04:14:24.020 --> 04:14:28.800
And in the back of that it lists the
members on the Faith and Order Commission.

04:14:28.800 --> 04:14:33.900
And Dr. Raul Dedran, Seventh-day Adventist
Church, SDA Theological Seminary,

04:14:33.980 --> 04:14:38.300
Andrews University, Berrien Springs,
Michigan, is listed there as one of the

04:14:38.300 --> 04:14:39.620
members of that commission.

04:14:40.380 --> 04:14:44.780
So he's been on that commission for years.

04:14:45.660 --> 04:14:49.960
And they recommended unanimously to
transmit this agreed statement for the

04:14:49.960 --> 04:14:53.320
common study and official response to the
churches.

04:14:53.540 --> 04:14:57.040
They represented virtually all the major
traditions.

04:14:57.340 --> 04:14:58.540
All the major church traditions.

04:14:58.720 --> 04:15:02.140
Now notice they include the Adventists
among major church traditions.

04:15:02.260 --> 04:15:04.180
Planted just as big as life, right here.

04:15:04.300 --> 04:15:04.480
Right.

04:15:04.640 --> 04:15:08.580
Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox,
Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Lutheran,

04:15:08.620 --> 04:15:12.260
Anglican, Reformed, Methodist,
United, Disciples, Baptist, Adventist,

04:15:12.320 --> 04:15:13.180
and Pentecostal.

04:15:13.300 --> 04:15:16.480
But what about our leadership,
Bob, that are denying this?

04:15:16.720 --> 04:15:18.560
Well, that's what I want to get into.

04:15:18.900 --> 04:15:20.560
Let me just read this last paragraph.

04:15:20.720 --> 04:15:22.460
The church's response to this

04:15:25.540 --> 04:15:27.700
ecumenical process of reception.

04:15:27.800 --> 04:15:30.100
And we have responded to that document.

04:15:30.620 --> 04:15:33.780
It's in Volume 2 of Churches Respond to
BEM.

04:15:34.960 --> 04:15:38.640
And the response is by the Council on
Inter-Church Relations.

04:15:39.100 --> 04:15:44.340
Well, what happened, John, that was so
interesting was someone read our paper out

04:15:44.340 --> 04:15:48.060
on the West Coast and wrote to a certain
independent ministry.

04:15:49.040 --> 04:15:53.060
And they had, even though we didn't name
Dr. Deterren's name in the paper,

04:15:55.060 --> 04:15:55.540
it was he.

04:15:56.140 --> 04:16:00.640
And this independent ministry wrote
directly to Dr. Deterren and asked him

04:16:00.640 --> 04:16:05.000
about it because they had a letter from B
.B.

04:16:05.100 --> 04:16:10.360
Beach dated April 2 of 1982, which would
be just a few months after January,

04:16:10.960 --> 04:16:14.000
which stated that he abstained from voting
on the document.

04:16:14.160 --> 04:16:16.860
And yet the BEM document says it was
unanimous.

04:16:17.080 --> 04:16:18.180
Somebody's lying here, Bob.

04:16:18.700 --> 04:16:21.480
So he wrote this letter to Dr. Deterren.

04:16:21.680 --> 04:16:21.840
And

04:16:25.060 --> 04:16:26.940
it was received December 5, 1991.

04:16:27.120 --> 04:16:31.900
Dr. Deterren called and stated that he
signed no papers nor the document itself.

04:16:33.320 --> 04:16:37.980
So not only did Dr. Deterren also confirm
that he abstained in the vote on the

04:16:37.980 --> 04:16:39.460
document as did some others.

04:16:39.560 --> 04:16:45.380
Well, that really perplexed us because the
World Council of Churches has gone on

04:16:45.380 --> 04:16:49.640
record in the back of this book stating
that the Adventists were involved.

04:16:50.440 --> 04:16:51.840
So we

04:16:55.060 --> 04:16:59.280
got up a little after 1 in the morning and
called the World Council of Churches in

04:16:59.280 --> 04:17:05.160
Geneva, Switzerland and talked to the
Faith and Order Department there and asked

04:17:05.160 --> 04:17:06.780
them if they had a list.

04:17:06.960 --> 04:17:10.140
And John, I faxed that telefax down to
you.

04:17:10.220 --> 04:17:16.220
It came in at 4 o'clock that morning from
Switzerland from Dr. Gunther Gottesman's

04:17:16.220 --> 04:17:16.620
office.

04:17:16.800 --> 04:17:18.200
He's the Director of Faith and

04:17:25.060 --> 04:17:25.220
Order.

04:17:25.220 --> 04:17:30.100
He said, I'm happy to send you the list of
participants in the 1982 Lima Faith and

04:17:30.100 --> 04:17:34.460
Order meeting who have unanimously adopted
the BEM document.

04:17:35.220 --> 04:17:37.480
Gudrun Smith, the secretary, signed it.

04:17:38.220 --> 04:17:43.600
And as we were watching the fax,
we noticed the names coming out and there

04:17:43.600 --> 04:17:48.260
as big as life in the first column was Dr.
Deterren's name, Dr. R.

04:17:48.360 --> 04:17:48.640
Deterren.

04:17:48.700 --> 04:17:48.860
In

04:17:55.060 --> 04:17:57.340
that moment, he had checked the minutes
and it was unanimous.

04:17:58.180 --> 04:18:04.140
In that phone call where I talked directly
to Dr. Gunther Gottesman, the Director of

04:18:04.140 --> 04:18:06.940
the World Council of Churches,
who would be one of the more powerful men

04:18:06.940 --> 04:18:11.360
in the World Council of Churches,
he told me the vote was unanimous.

04:18:11.480 --> 04:18:14.200
Every person in the room voted in favor of
it.

04:18:14.320 --> 04:18:14.620
There were

04:18:25.060 --> 04:18:25.060
favor of it.

04:18:25.060 --> 04:18:27.920
Bob has contested the fact that the vote
was unanimous.

04:18:28.000 --> 04:18:32.240
And it's been in print now for years on
the back of the BEM document.

04:18:32.820 --> 04:18:38.140
Any church that did not want to appear as
having been involved unanimously with this

04:18:38.140 --> 04:18:41.520
vote would surely have contested that fact
some time ago.

04:18:41.680 --> 04:18:44.420
But Bob, here is this document from the
World

04:18:55.060 --> 04:18:55.300
Council of Churches.

04:18:55.300 --> 04:18:57.520
Bob, are we being lied to?

04:18:57.620 --> 04:18:58.480
Have we been lied to?

04:18:58.580 --> 04:18:59.620
What is going on, Bob?

04:18:59.700 --> 04:19:01.000
Let's just come right out and spell it
out.

04:19:01.040 --> 04:19:01.880
People need to know.

04:19:02.220 --> 04:19:02.980
Well, all right.

04:19:03.060 --> 04:19:06.900
I pressed the matter then with Dr.
Gottesman.

04:19:08.200 --> 04:19:14.140
And I even brought up Dr. Dutton's name
because I wanted to get to the bottom of

04:19:14.140 --> 04:19:14.720
this thing.

04:19:25.060 --> 04:19:30.900
He admitted that we have a person seated
in a personal capacity on this commission.

04:19:31.040 --> 04:19:35.820
But the inference that I always got from
that was that everyone else was there in

04:19:35.820 --> 04:19:36.960
an official capacity.

04:19:37.480 --> 04:19:41.060
But now I find out that all of them serve
in a personal capacity.

04:19:41.820 --> 04:19:46.000
The voting, he said, is not a juridical,
legally binding matter for the churches

04:19:46.000 --> 04:19:48.740
that the members represent.

04:19:49.360 --> 04:19:53.880
And an affirmative vote means that the
document is accepted in principle or

04:19:53.880 --> 04:19:56.460
agreed with in principle, not necessarily
in all its details.

04:19:56.800 --> 04:19:58.700
Okay, let me see if I understand this,
Bob.

04:19:59.180 --> 04:20:03.240
We have been told by the leadership of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church for years now

04:20:03.240 --> 04:20:08.420
that we are functioning in the World
Council of Churches but in a personal,

04:20:08.420 --> 04:20:08.860
unofficial...

04:20:08.860 --> 04:20:09.600
is that the terms?

04:20:09.860 --> 04:20:12.860
Well, that's the implication that a person
would get.

04:20:12.880 --> 04:20:13.620
A personal...

04:20:14.120 --> 04:20:16.440
A personal role on the...

04:20:16.440 --> 04:20:17.300
A personal role.

04:20:17.420 --> 04:20:20.680
But that's exactly the same as everybody
else about the But that's what everybody

04:20:20.680 --> 04:20:23.280
with the World Council of Churches
functions in a personal role.

04:20:23.620 --> 04:20:26.980
Nobody is there representing a church per
se.

04:20:27.160 --> 04:20:28.980
They're working in a functional...

04:20:28.980 --> 04:20:30.100
I mean, in a personal role.

04:20:30.280 --> 04:20:31.960
So really this has just been a
smokescreen.

04:20:32.300 --> 04:20:35.820
We have been involved in the World Council
of Churches for years and our people have

04:20:35.820 --> 04:20:38.620
been misled, and may I even say it,
we have been lied to.

04:20:38.980 --> 04:20:44.060
Well, also, John, if you check the
directory of the World Council of

04:20:44.060 --> 04:20:48.600
Churches, you'll find that we have
membership or associate membership or

04:20:48.600 --> 04:20:54.120
observer status in at least 13 nations,
national branches of the World Council of

04:20:54.120 --> 04:20:54.660
Churches.

04:20:55.500 --> 04:20:58.000
I counted them one time some months ago.

04:20:58.480 --> 04:21:06.760
And also, we have had a representative on
the World Confessional Families branch of

04:21:06.760 --> 04:21:10.840
the World Council of Churches,
which is a very powerful branch of the

04:21:10.840 --> 04:21:12.000
World Council of Churches.

04:21:12.300 --> 04:21:15.160
And all that the World Council of Churches
is and everything that we have been

04:21:15.160 --> 04:21:19.840
involved in is the seventh evidence all
these years is the Protestant Reformation

04:21:19.840 --> 04:21:20.440
in reverse.

04:21:20.640 --> 04:21:22.300
It totally negates the Three Angels
message.

04:21:22.700 --> 04:21:27.520
We have been called forth by God to call
people out of Babylon and to separate from

04:21:27.520 --> 04:21:27.860
Babylon.

04:21:28.160 --> 04:21:32.400
And all that the World Council of Churches
does is promote ecumenicalism,

04:21:32.480 --> 04:21:36.340
which is the Protestant Reformation and
negates the Three Angels message and

04:21:36.340 --> 04:21:39.580
totally countermands everything we believe
in the Three Angels message.

04:21:39.720 --> 04:21:48.840
It's completely the opposite of the second
and third.

04:21:48.840 --> 04:21:52.640
And John, this all ties in with these
trademark lawsuits, of course.

04:21:52.680 --> 04:21:52.980
Absolutely.

04:21:53.360 --> 04:21:57.120
Bob, we shouldn't be having anything to do
with this in the first place.

04:21:57.440 --> 04:21:59.780
Well, that's exactly the situation.

04:22:00.020 --> 04:22:00.100
How insane.

04:22:00.280 --> 04:22:01.580
We've lost our minds.

04:22:01.760 --> 04:22:04.460
Our leadership have changed leaders and
they don't even know it.

04:22:04.840 --> 04:22:09.200
Well, John, we have still now on the
records then.

04:22:09.780 --> 04:22:11.180
We don't know exactly.

04:22:11.480 --> 04:22:12.260
We weren't present.

04:22:12.380 --> 04:22:16.720
There was no video camera, but we do have
on the record the record of the World

04:22:16.720 --> 04:22:21.100
Council of Churches that Dr. Detteren was
a participant in the unanimous vote.

04:22:21.380 --> 04:22:22.780
That's on that fax I sent you.

04:22:23.200 --> 04:22:27.080
We have the statement that the Adventists
were involved in the unanimous decision on

04:22:27.080 --> 04:22:28.620
the back of the BEM document.

04:22:29.040 --> 04:22:35.440
We also have a personal witness in Europe
who told me over the telephone,

04:22:35.600 --> 04:22:41.540
I called him in Europe, and he told me
that he had read in the German-speaking

04:22:41.540 --> 04:22:49.080
Adventist paper an article in which it
said that Dr. Detteren had voted in favor

04:22:49.080 --> 04:22:50.600
of the BEM document.

04:22:51.020 --> 04:22:55.180
And he went on to tell me how when he was
in America, he went to Dr. Detteren and he

04:22:55.180 --> 04:22:56.460
said, how could you do this?

04:22:56.540 --> 04:23:00.020
How could you go along with these men who
are opposed to us?

04:23:00.460 --> 04:23:05.940
And Dr. Detteren admitted privately to
this man that he had voted in favor of it,

04:23:06.220 --> 04:23:09.560
but he said in his heart he was in
disagreement with the document.

04:23:09.820 --> 04:23:11.000
Let me tell you something, Bob.

04:23:11.100 --> 04:23:16.360
The thing that our historic Adventist
people have to realize is that we have

04:23:16.360 --> 04:23:19.760
been lied to and we've been lied to for
years.

04:23:19.900 --> 04:23:21.020
And I know that it's painful.

04:23:21.440 --> 04:23:22.960
I am a third-generation Adventist.

04:23:23.220 --> 04:23:27.280
I love this message, but we have got to
realize that we have been lied to by our

04:23:27.280 --> 04:23:27.660
leadership.

04:23:27.660 --> 04:23:31.800
And it's about time that our historic
Adventist people woke up and started

04:23:31.800 --> 04:23:36.260
investigating things instead of just
accepting the word of these men and

04:23:36.260 --> 04:23:39.120
realize that we have been led down the
primrose path.

04:23:39.300 --> 04:23:44.820
John, this man then went to the union
office in Vienna, Austria to find that

04:23:44.820 --> 04:23:51.100
article and when he got there and got into
the archives, that set of documents was

04:23:51.100 --> 04:23:51.460
missing.

04:23:51.760 --> 04:23:52.540
Isn't that amazing?

04:23:52.880 --> 04:23:58.400
Bob, give us an update on the situation
with the Caste yearbook at Andrews

04:23:58.400 --> 04:23:58.820
University.

04:23:58.940 --> 04:24:00.300
Hear if something happened about that.

04:24:00.920 --> 04:24:01.280
Okay.

04:24:01.840 --> 04:24:07.700
I was just talking to someone up at
Andrews and they told me that the day

04:24:07.700 --> 04:24:14.040
after the Caste came out, there were 50 to
100 black and Hispanic seminary students

04:24:14.040 --> 04:24:20.380
that were so outraged by it that they
wanted to have a public bonfire burning of

04:24:20.380 --> 04:24:20.980
the Caste.

04:24:22.640 --> 04:24:27.640
And some Koreans, I think, were also
involved in that.

04:24:27.640 --> 04:24:30.700
Now we've got Koreans, we've got the
Hispanics, and we've got the blacks.

04:24:31.000 --> 04:24:33.640
Where are all these little manby-pamby
white boys at?

04:24:33.720 --> 04:24:34.780
Why aren't they doing something?

04:24:34.900 --> 04:24:35.880
Why are they such chickens?

04:24:36.220 --> 04:24:43.440
This man told me that there were some
other pastors in training at the seminary

04:24:43.440 --> 04:24:45.800
who saw absolutely nothing wrong with it.

04:24:45.880 --> 04:24:51.060
In fact, they saw it as commendable and
that it was wonderful that it had a

04:24:51.060 --> 04:24:52.220
spiritual motif.

04:24:52.640 --> 04:25:00.340
And so what's interesting then,
John, is that in the teeth of this growing

04:25:00.340 --> 04:25:06.720
unrest about the Caste on the part of a
few people at Andrews, the pastor,

04:25:06.860 --> 04:25:12.940
the senior pastor, Dr. Dwight Nelson,
I've got the copy of his sermon right

04:25:12.940 --> 04:25:13.320
here.

04:25:14.040 --> 04:25:21.700
He told a committee that he was going to
publicly defend this magazine and support

04:25:21.700 --> 04:25:21.960
it.

04:25:22.680 --> 04:25:29.500
And then he entered the pulpit November
23rd and over the 50,000 watt station at

04:25:29.500 --> 04:25:34.720
Andrews, which broadcasts all over
Michiana for a great distance,

04:25:34.820 --> 04:25:38.460
including Notre Dame University,
which is about a 45 minute drive away.

04:25:38.700 --> 04:25:42.080
He publicly supported this magazine to the
skies.

04:25:42.920 --> 04:25:44.660
Well, Bob, I tell you, I've got that tape
in my hand.

04:25:44.760 --> 04:25:46.960
I appreciate you supporting this and
having it sent to me.

04:25:47.480 --> 04:25:51.000
I think our folks at home need to hear a
few minutes of this.

04:25:51.300 --> 04:25:54.980
This is Dr. Dwight Nelson, senior pastor
of the Pioneer Memorial Church at Berrien

04:25:54.980 --> 04:25:55.660
Springs, Michigan.

04:25:55.860 --> 04:25:56.980
You need to hear this, folks.

04:25:57.980 --> 04:26:01.240
Since this is the Thanksgiving season,
I want to take a moment right here at the

04:26:01.240 --> 04:26:05.920
beginning to express a word of
thankfulness.

04:26:06.860 --> 04:26:09.840
It concerns this little production I hold
in my hands.

04:26:11.720 --> 04:26:15.200
Those of you that are students in the
university, Andrews University recognize

04:26:15.200 --> 04:26:18.980
this as the national 1991-92 cast.

04:26:20.360 --> 04:26:23.680
If you have not seen this production,
and most of you in the community have not,

04:26:23.740 --> 04:26:27.820
you cannot appreciate the incredible
design work that went into making this

04:26:27.820 --> 04:26:29.620
particular cast a reality.

04:26:29.720 --> 04:26:33.460
I've appreciated all of our casts,
but in particular, this one that chose a

04:26:33.460 --> 04:26:35.260
religious motif for its theme.

04:26:36.720 --> 04:26:43.080
My hat is off to Joffrey Isaac and the
entire team who are listed here in the

04:26:43.080 --> 04:26:44.300
cover of this production.

04:26:44.640 --> 04:26:49.880
Masterful, appropriate, indeed,
for this institution and this Christian

04:26:49.880 --> 04:26:50.240
campus.

04:26:50.380 --> 04:26:54.420
In fact, last service, first service,
I wrote a note.

04:26:54.520 --> 04:26:57.780
We'll all have a chance in a moment to
write notes, but I wrote it to Joffrey.

04:26:58.860 --> 04:27:02.520
Dear Joffrey, just a note to let you know
how much I appreciated your production and

04:27:02.520 --> 04:27:03.940
design of the cast this year.

04:27:04.120 --> 04:27:04.440
Super.

04:27:05.520 --> 04:27:09.320
The religious motif naturally impressed me
as your pastor on this campus.

04:27:09.660 --> 04:27:13.620
Tasteful, pertinent, and right on for a
Christian university.

04:27:14.380 --> 04:27:15.900
God bless you in all your creations.

04:27:15.900 --> 04:27:18.300
Creative endeavors in the future for him.

04:27:18.760 --> 04:27:19.180
Peace.

04:27:19.880 --> 04:27:20.800
And I signed it.

04:27:21.820 --> 04:27:24.560
I do thank Joffrey and his team.

04:27:25.100 --> 04:27:26.020
Job well done.

04:27:26.380 --> 04:27:26.800
Thank you.

04:27:30.650 --> 04:27:33.910
Oh, that was very enlightening,
to say the least.

04:27:34.210 --> 04:27:35.450
What else do you have for us, Bob?

04:27:36.010 --> 04:27:40.950
Well, John, you know, we mentioned about
Dr. William Loveless teaching the

04:27:40.950 --> 04:27:43.750
spiritual exercises to the ministers and
workers meeting.

04:27:44.010 --> 04:27:45.030
What's the latest with that?

04:27:45.110 --> 04:27:47.770
And he's been, of course, traveling around
promoting this.

04:27:48.450 --> 04:27:55.750
We got some material in the mail,
which was part of a seminar that he was

04:27:55.750 --> 04:28:00.970
giving on Friday nights at Loma Linda,
entitled Lessons in Contemplative Prayer.

04:28:01.570 --> 04:28:02.830
It happened in July.

04:28:03.510 --> 04:28:10.570
And on the back page of the handout,
there, as big as life, is the reading list

04:28:10.570 --> 04:28:13.010
for Christian meditation and
contemplation.

04:28:13.110 --> 04:28:18.310
And there is Ignatius Loyola right on the
list, the spiritual exercises to the St.

04:28:18.610 --> 04:28:19.170
Ignatius.

04:28:19.250 --> 04:28:22.250
And that's the training manual for the
Jesuit Order.

04:28:22.790 --> 04:28:30.670
So there is absolutely black and white
evidence of direct promulgation of the

04:28:30.670 --> 04:28:33.610
training manual of the Jesuits right
there.

04:28:33.690 --> 04:28:39.310
Bob, I just received a letter from a woman
that was a professional hypnotist before

04:28:39.310 --> 04:28:42.510
she found the truth and came into the
Seventh Adventist Church.

04:28:42.650 --> 04:28:48.810
And she says when she saw the New Age
Adventism and the part one and heard that

04:28:48.810 --> 04:28:51.750
tape of Bill Lovelace, she gasped in
disbelief.

04:28:52.170 --> 04:28:56.550
She says this is absolutely hypnotism in
its highest form.

04:28:56.670 --> 04:29:02.110
She says she went through and just
outlined all the steps that Bill Lovelace

04:29:02.110 --> 04:29:02.570
was doing.

04:29:02.990 --> 04:29:05.550
And she was a professional hypnotist
before she came to the Lord.

04:29:06.070 --> 04:29:06.670
Isn't that something?

04:29:06.670 --> 04:29:08.790
It's incredible, Bob, the stuff that it's
having.

04:29:08.910 --> 04:29:13.010
Yet our people are so reluctant to admit
this stuff.

04:29:13.430 --> 04:29:17.130
And they listen to our leadership because,
I want to tell you, in case you don't

04:29:17.130 --> 04:29:20.750
know, there has been such an unbelievable
attack launched against the independent

04:29:20.750 --> 04:29:23.270
ministry since we began bringing out this
information.

04:29:24.110 --> 04:29:26.670
And we haven't seen the worst of it by any
means.

04:29:26.850 --> 04:29:31.550
So, batten down the hatches, Bob,
because we've sure stirred up a hornet's

04:29:31.550 --> 04:29:32.510
nest, to say the least.

04:29:32.610 --> 04:29:37.750
John, also on that reading list,
there is a book by William Johnston,

04:29:37.950 --> 04:29:45.530
who is a Jesuit living over in Japan,
who is affiliated with Sophia University.

04:29:46.190 --> 04:29:49.290
He is a Jesuit there, and so his book is
in there.

04:29:49.390 --> 04:29:53.950
And also, St. Teresa, the Complete Works
of St. Teresa, is another book.

04:29:54.250 --> 04:29:57.690
She is one of the greatest mystics of the
Roman Catholic Church.

04:29:58.170 --> 04:30:02.610
Bob, we're getting down to the end of not
only the end of time, but the end of this

04:30:02.610 --> 04:30:02.890
tape.

04:30:02.910 --> 04:30:05.950
We're going to have to bring this thing to
a close, but I appreciate so much you

04:30:05.950 --> 04:30:09.590
calling and updating us at the end of this
tape before it goes to the duplicators and

04:30:09.590 --> 04:30:11.570
keeping our people abreast of what is
going on.

04:30:11.930 --> 04:30:13.670
May God bless you in your work.

04:30:13.710 --> 04:30:15.070
God bless you too, John.

04:30:15.170 --> 04:30:16.470
It's been wonderful working with you.

04:30:16.570 --> 04:30:17.130
Thanks, Bob.

04:30:17.530 --> 04:30:18.010
Bye-bye.

04:30:18.030 --> 04:30:18.330
Bye-bye.