Bob Trev, so good to have you here.
I have been reading your magazine, Freedom's Ring, for some time now and I
want to tell you that God has raised you up, brother, for such a time as this.
You
have a lot to tell us.
And before we get into it, let's ask God's Holy Spirit to be with us.
Because I want to tell you, from what I have already heard, you have a tremendous
wealth of knowledge to share with us.
So let's ask God's Holy Spirit to be with us right now.
Will you kneel with me?
Dear Heavenly Father, I pray that you will be with my brother Bob Trev.
Dear Father, I thank you for raising him up for such a critical time as this in the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Touch his lips with a hot coal from thine altar now, dear Father, as he brings to us
the revelations that he has found happening, not only in the world,
but in the Church, and how it leads to end-time prophecy.
To thy name's honor and glory we dedicate this video in the holy and blessed name of
Jesus and for his sake.
Amen.
Bob,
when I was on vacation recently, I took this bound volume of Freedom's Ring
that you sent me, and I went through it with a highlighter pen.
And I want to tell you, brother, it's been a long time since I have seen
any document that has shaken me like this material that you have put together.
The Lord has given you a knowledge and an insight into what is happening within our
Church.
And what we want to do on this video is just to let you talk and reveal to God's
people the things that you have uncovered and put it on video for God's historic
Adventist people to realize where we are in this Church and in this Earth's
history.
Before we get into this, though, I would like to know, and I think the
Adventist people watching this video would like to know also, what your history has
been.
I've got to be perfectly honest with you.
A year ago, I'd never heard of Bob Drez.
I didn't know who you were.
And suddenly, I see this Freedom's Ring everywhere and all this wonderful material
and people talking about the material that you have brought out.
Give us a little bit of your history.
Have you been a Seventh-day Adventist all your life?
Have you been through our educational system?
How did Freedom's Ring come into existence?
Give us an update.
How did you get where you are now, Bob?
First of all, John, I'd like to say it's really wonderful to be with you.
We've enjoyed our experience here.
And we feel that we owe you a real debt for the work that you've done with your
Celebration series.
It has awakened the Church like nothing else has.
And it's a real honor to be here with you.
I'm a third-generation Adventist, John, and I grew up loving the Lord,
had godly parents.
I spent a lot of time hiking out in nature as a boy and teenager, and I still do.
I always have loved the influence of the Spirit of God coming through the Word as
well as the natural world.
And as a boy, I was keenly aware about the Second Advent.
I had a picture of it in my bedroom.
And I remember even praying to the Lord that the Lord would somehow give me a
dream of what it might be like at the Second Advent.
And I was keenly aware also about end-time events.
I suppose it was about at the age of 11 that I picked up the Great Controversy,
not this one.
But I was so astounded by what I read, it gripped my heart like I think probably
nothing I had ever read had gripped it.
And I wondered, why am I not hearing these things in sermons?
This is absolutely fascinating.
And my heart was just charmed by the story of the Reformation and Luther and the
Waldensees.
And ever since then, whenever I've been able to obtain old books on the subject of
historical theology, I've gotten a hold of them, read them.
I love d'Aubigné's History of the Reformation that Ellen and James White
would read by the hour, Sabbath afternoons.
And as I went on through my educational experience in academy and then in college,
I felt a deepening hungering for the Lord.
And I got to the point in college where I would be spending three and four hours a
day studying the Bible and the spirit of prophecy.
I had a Honda Trail 90 and I loved to go up into the North Georgia mountains,
the mountains of Tennessee, where the sparkling lakes and the rivers and
waterfalls and commune with the Lord.
Now did you go to college at Southern Missionary College?
Right.
That's where I was.
I went there as well as at Atlantic Union College.
Came through our educational system except for when I was in kindergarten and first
grade was public school.
So you were born and raised a Seventh-day Adventist and came up through our
educational system just like I did.
I got to ask you, how old are you Bob?
Forty-two.
You beat me by two years.
I just turned 40.
So we come from the same generation.
I think that's obvious.
That's right.
Both born and raised in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Now what happened in your college years?
You gave me a little hint of that earlier.
You know John, that's an interesting point you make.
We're both of the same generation, same vintage.
And we have seen the complete turning inside out of our movement.
And that has concerned both of us and led us to do what we're doing.
But your question was, what did I see in college that stimulated and concerned me?
Yes.
Well, in the college dorm, you could walk from one end of the dorm to the other,
400 fellows, and not miss one word of the main rock station in Chattanooga.
Oh, you found that to be true in your dorm too, huh?
It was so bad, there was a young student, a doctor's son there, who was 16 years
old.
And he came one day to my room and he said, Bob, I am losing my mind here.
The intense worldliness, doors open with the music just pouring through the
hallways, no relief.
So I said to him, I have the answer for you.
And I said, you come with me.
And we hopped on my Trail 90, and one hour in the mountains he was just fine.
But it was during that time that I read the statement of the Spirit of Prophecy
that the hours of sunrise and sunset are God's appointed time for meeting with the
youth.
And I would jump on my cycle and go out and be there when the sun rose and be up
in the hills when the sun set, just worshiping God.
It was the most thrilling experience.
And those rides out in the mountain, it was an enig type of experience.
I was 19 years old and, you know, the ages around that.
And I just reveled in the freedom and the communion with God.
To me it was the greatest thing in the world to be able to commune with the
Creator.
Well, what started happening when you were in college that helped you to realize that
things were not on course as far as we as the Seventh-day Adventists.
You mentioned to me earlier that you started to realize that in 20 years things
were going to be drastically different.
Because our colleagues, the age group that you and I went to school with,
are now in leadership positions in the church.
And you realized that then and you said in 20 years there is going to be a terrible
upheaval in the Seventh-day Adventist church.
Because these are the church administrators being trained right now.
What was that in the 70s?
Late 60s?
Early 70s?
Has that been true?
Was that prophetic, Bob?
Absolutely.
As I looked around me, I knew there was a titanic struggle.
And John, this issue goes far beyond just theology, which is very critical.
It goes into the very core of our experience.
With the fear of the Lord, are we going to surrender and submit to the Lord or are we
going to imbibe of these things?
And as I looked around, I said to myself, in 20 years, we're going to see upheavals
in this church like you wouldn't believe.
You said earlier, I appreciate so much, Bob, your honesty and forthrightness.
And you admitted to me, you said, John, I've got to be honest and truthful
with you that I got caught up in the Ford heresy.
Tell us about that.
Well, after I did a stint in Africa under the Adventist Volunteer Service Corps,
teaching college and academy right out of the Bible, incidentally, in the spirit of
prophecy.
It was a tremendous experience.
And I had a good, excellent Bible teacher in college who comprehended the great
controversy issues.
That was very meaningful to me.
And I came back and I attended the seminary.
I was very shocked by the ecumenical stance of the seminary.
I will say this, there are some good men there, but the overall caste is an
ecumenical type of caste and network.
I found the same thing to be true in my theological training.
It was very disturbing.
There is, of course, new theology being taught there.
We know that 20-20 vision now is being used.
And whole departments are in that category.
How did you get sucked up into this Ford thing, though, Bob?
Well, what happened was, after five quarters at the seminary, I went to... my
wife and I...
This is Ed Andrews.
Ed Andrews, right.
I knew I had to answer some of these questions.
Even after having studied the spirit of prophecy in the Bible for hours,
every day for years, it was so disturbing to me, the things that I encountered,
that I knew I needed time to answer these questions for myself.
Was it the situation with the heavenly sanctuary, the things they were twisting
concerning that?
That's what I found when I was at Southern Missionary College.
It was... with me, it was... it didn't jibe with the Book of Great Controversy.
It didn't jibe with the Three Angels' Messages.
You know, we use...
What didn't jibe?
What they were saying?
The whole caste of the approach at the seminary bothered me.
The approach toward Rome was very significant.
Here, I, you know, I was... I cut my teeth on...
Great Controversy.
And it didn't square up.
It didn't square up with what I had taught.
In fact, I had a class there right after I came back from Africa in which we had
outright ecumenical books.
One was by James F.
White, New Forms of Worship, where it advocated dancing, hiring professional
dancers to dance on the stage for worship.
This is at seminary at Andrews.
And recommended beyond that, even having the congregations dance.
And then our people wonder why our preachers are the way they are today.
And those with white hair in the Adventist church say, You know, the things we're
hearing from the pulpits today don't match what we heard 30, 40 years ago.
And they have a hard time understanding why there's been this big shift.
It's because our ministry has been trained in ecumenicalism.
Not only that, it started long before that in the educational system, as you know,
John.
There was one very dedicated professor there at the seminary who sometimes had to
fast for days before he approached certain subjects because of the hostility of the
fellows who had been trained in our colleges.
They come into this with it fastened on them early on.
Anyway, in this particular class, I had to critique the book.
And I said, of course, well, this man had even recommended, he said, we are past the
literary era.
And so we need to use the banners of love and peace.
And we're beyond the stage where people will read the Bible and that type of
thing.
So I said, of course, this man is an ecumenical and we cannot go along with
what he's saying.
We have to find our principles of worship in the word of God and the spirit of
prophecy.
The professor was furious.
He came into class with the sheaf of analyses that the students had done.
And he built up, as he was reading them, finally got to mine at the end.
And he said, brethren, ecumenism is not a dirty word.
And his face was just flushed with anger.
He took excerpts from my paper and twisted them out of context.
And a couple of weeks later, he called me into his office and he asked me the
question.
He said, are you an American?
And I said, yes.
He said, have you been a lifelong Adventist?
I said, yes.
And he said, are your parents Adventists?
And I said, yes.
And questions like this.
And finally he said to me, I noticed you came down hard on the book we had for
class.
And I said, yes.
And he said, now if this man was sitting here in this chair, don't you think we
ought to talk to him?
Of course, meaning ecumenical.
But I took it in a little different vein.
And I said, I'd be happy to talk to the man.
But I said, as far as his book goes, it was directly contrary to the first
angel's message.
And the professor's mouth metaphorically dropped open and I got up and walked out
of the office.
But this is the kind of thing you encounter.
This is exactly what I encountered at Southern College.
Exactly.
You know, I had been there my freshman year in 1970.
But then I went my sophomore and junior year to last year.
But then I had dropped out because I had become disillusioned.
But when the Lord called me distinctively into the ministry and I went back to
Southern College in 1979.
This is exactly what I found at Southern College.
And I would find myself at odds with my entire theology class and professor.
Defending 1844, a day for a year, the heavenly sanctuary, character
perfection, Ellen White, our cardinal doctrines.
It was unbelievable.
I couldn't believe the things were happening.
And to find out that the same exact thing happened to you in our colleges.
Well, I went, John, I took a break then and went and worked with my dad's medical
practice.
Giving Bible studies.
We remodeled a number of houses for finances.
We were on deferred appointment to Africa.
And the conference ultimately offered me a district.
But at that time I needed to go back and finish up my MDiv.
And I ultimately went on for my MTH and basically took the bulk of the class work
was doctoral work.
And about the time I began my thesis for the MTH, I went back in the field.
And I've been so busy ever since.
And I was a college teacher.
But in that break, at the end...
You were a college teacher.
So you've also taught on the college level.
Oh, yes.
In fact, I taught virtually every undergraduate course that is usually
taught.
Including some that aren't usually taught like Biblical Aramaic.
How did you get to the mindset where you are today?
How did you get in the groove of historic Adventism and come out of all of this
stuff?
That's what people ask me.
John, how did you go through our educational system and get to where you
are today?
And I want to ask you that question now.
Well, I knew it would be a battle at the seminary.
And particularly after our first stint, when we went back the second time,
I guarded, first of all, very carefully the communion with God.
I had prayer walks in the morning, in the evening.
I took my family for prayer walks morning and evening.
There were families breaking up around us.
There were faculty families breaking up.
There were fellows selling their Spirit of Prophecy books, leaving the ministry,
leaving the faith, all of that type of thing.
And I devoted a certain segment of each day specifically for answering the
questions that had arisen in my own mind as a result of doubts that had been raised
in classes.
I had one class that was so, so subtly satanic that I had to spend two hours each
time after that class, after virtually every class period, in communion with the
Lord to get rid of the evil spirit that haunted me after being in that class.
Sometimes in my classes at Southern College, I would find myself weeping
because I found my theology being rearranged.
And I found my mind being rearranged and twisted by, you know, trying to take on
one student, trying to take on the entire theology class and professors.
That's awesome, Bob.
Yet I found that day after day after day, and it got to the place where I didn't
want to go to class anymore because I found out that defending historic
Adventism made me an outcast.
But, you know, I realized that the Lord, Bob, was preparing me for this time now.
When you look back, you can see it.
Yes, the Lord, if I couldn't have taken the onslaught that I got at Southern
College as a student there, I could not withstand the persecution and revilement
that I'm taking now in this independent ministry.
So the Lord was preparing us.
Praise His name.
But you asked specifically, John, about how did I get into this groove.
And about the end of the time when we had taken the break, just before I went back
to the seminary to continue my studies, we began getting Ford tapes.
Ford had just come here from Australia to PUC.
And he was saying that justification is the third angel's message in verity.
It's exactly what Ellen White says.
And he's a very engaging personality.
Very humble in his appearance and all.
And I suppose I listened to about eight different sermons as I was working,
remodeling houses.
He's clever, Bob.
He's clever.
When we came back to the seminary, the Fordite movement was in full swing
there.
And there were many Australian students, many American students, lawyers,
others who were entering the ministry.
Brilliant people.
Bright as light.
Very keen.
Yes.
And these were our predominant friends.
We ate in their homes.
They ate in our home.
We had fellowship and we had many experiences together.
But that fall, I went back to school in the summertime, but that fall,
I received the Pacific Union College forum tape in which Ford began exposing what his
real position was on the sanctuary.
And that was what really began triggering things in my experience.
And I knew something horrendously was wrong.
It didn't jibe with Great Controversy.
It didn't jibe with our historic Adventist position on the sanctuary.
I began getting up at 3 o'clock in the morning, night after night, reading
Leviticus 16 in Hebrew, Daniel 8 in Hebrew, Hebrews 8 through 10 in Greek,
wrestling with it.
I remember one time I went on a walk and I said, Lord, give me light on this.
And so I not only began researching that subject in depth, but I began studying one
subject after another of Ford's entire theological package.
I studied his issue on the nature of sin, his doctrine, compared it with Ellen White
and the Scriptures, the nature of Christ, the issue of obedience, justification,
sanctification, Sabbath, sanctuary, how the whole package fit together.
And I came to the conclusion that there were two systems of theology struggling
for the mastery in a life-and-death combat in our structure.
And during this time, that fall, I was in the Fordite movement.
I was the acting treasurer, and at Christmas time they put my name up to be
president of the organization.
And I declined because I had had enough doubts at that point as to where it was
going, and I told them I don't know enough about where this movement is going.
I did further research, and I came to the point about February, it must have been,
of the next year.
What year was that?
That would have been 81.
No, no, no, sorry, that would have been 80.
I came to the point that it was not of the Lord.
In fact, even the justification concepts were forensic-only justification instead
of the kind of concept we see in 1 Selected Messages 366.
It's fascinating to note that this was taking place in 1980, because in 79 and 80
is when the Lord was pulling me as a brand from the burning into a particular
ministry that He had for me.
And that's exactly, it looks, the time that God was pulling you as a brand from
the burning out of another lifestyle, out of another movement into the work that
He had for you to do.
I saw on the road to Damascus experience in preparation for what He really had for
you to do at that time of 1980.
That's when it was happening in my life, too.
That's exciting, Bob, to realize.
Yeah, I would like to emphasize, John, that the fellows that were in this
movement were determined to take over this church.
Oh, absolutely.
Their philosophy and their theology was we are going to stay in this church and take
it over.
Take it over from the inside.
The way the organization functioned on the campus, there was a hardcore group of
those who could be trusted.
And we had, for instance, one time I remember a missionary came through who had
been let go in the Far East for his doctrinal positions.
He presented in eight areas in which the New Theology needed to take over the
church.
He went on afterwards to get his doctorate, and now he's teaching at the
seminary.
He was taken in immediately after completion of his doctorate.
And significant things have happened since he has been back there.
But then they would hold big meetings where a professor who was in secret
sympathy with this movement would speak, but the general public didn't realize it.
And during the meeting, the place would be packed.
He'd be a popular, eloquent speaker.
The leaders of the movement would watch the audience carefully, and anyone that
they noted that was paying particularly close attention, they would corner them on
the way out and seek to draw them into the group.
I came to the point when I was convinced, and I saw clearly, of the two systems of
theology struggling for the mastery, and that this was a false movement.
I went in, I took to a committee meeting, and I took my materials, and I handed them
over, and I said, this movement is going nowhere, and it is not the movement that
we are called to give.
And their mouths dropped open.
I got up and walked out.
That summer, Glacier View took place.
And at Glacier View, you know what happened there.
Men came in from all over the world at great expense.
Ford had spent six months preparing a 999-page document that gathered virtually
every argument from history and current thought against the sanctuary that could
be mustered at church expense.
And at that point in 1981, his sanctuary position was condemned.
I might say that Ford got his doctorate at the University of Manchester.
His major professor was F.F.
Bruce, who was Plymouth Brethren, once saved, always saved individual.
And the Antiochus Epiphanes was seen as the Antichrist in that dissertation.
We studied Bruce when I was in college, too.
I remember one theology class that I had where they were just bringing in all of
these theologians, and I raised such a stink.
I said, why are we going to these men?
Why are we learning from these men?
And exactly the same situation happened with you, happened with me, where the
professor's face flushed red, and he just became indignant that one of the theology
students would question what he was doing in the books that he was using.
Yeah, it's amazing.
And go ahead, John.
Okay, Bob, I've just got two questions.
How did you start publishing Freedom's Ring?
And what are all these books?
I mean, they haven't even seen these on videos.
But folks, over here on two tables are books.
I mean, books and books and books.
And I want to know what you have found in your research.
We can take a little bit more time to cap off your history and to bring you into the
arena of where you're publishing Freedom's Ring now.
But I want to show these books and the material and how it relates to us as
Seventh-day Adventists today.
So bring us up to speed now to where you are in publishing Freedom's Ring,
how you got to this place.
Well, while I was teaching college, I've always loved religious liberty.
One of my ancestors is William Penn.
We had Huguenot ancestors.
It's in my blood.
And ever since college days, I've been interested in religious liberty.
And so I began studying it.
I began realizing that I had to give an answer myself at the end of time,
personally, and give an account for where I stood on these issues.
And I knew I couldn't leave that research up to anyone else.
I began buying constitutional law books.
I began speaking and writing on the subject.
And various ones began encouraging me strongly to start up a paper.
Actually, I'd wanted to do that for years.
And finally we launched Freedom's Ring.
And I do research, writing, editing.
Now I love it.
It's tremendous.
Well, I tell you, I was sure edified by this bound volume of Freedom's Ring that
you sent me before I went on vacation.
I was able to spend some time just going through it page by page.
I want to find out what is the first inclination that you had of us heading
toward Catholicism.
Was it in college?
When did you come to realize that a major move was underway to get the Adventist
church into the ecumenical movement and embracing Catholicism?
Because that is basically what you have covered in page after page after page
here.
And it's in such depth that I'm wondering how long have you been aware of this?
How long have you been working on this?
How long has it been since God has been revealing this to your mind?
Because many laymen today, and myself included, realize that this is happening.
When did you start getting wind of this?
First of all, John, I want to give all the glory to God.
Because there are times when God has led me in a bookstore to a certain page as
I've opened the book.
And I have said to myself, I've got to buy this book just for that one sentence.
Well, the question is, how did I begin to become aware of Catholicism?
I'd like to show you a book here, John.
Well, show us these books that you've got, Bob.
We're going to have to bring a camera over here a little bit and show these viewers
the close-up of this.
But this is a tremendous amount.
I mean, you've got hundreds of dollars right here just in books.
This is just a fraction of it, John.
And when you came to speak here at Rolling Hills last Sabbath, it was so funny.
You brought one big case of books in.
Then somebody was following you, I think it was your son, with another big
case of books.
And then another big case of books.
And I said, I thought I carried around a lot of books.
This is phenomenal material.
Let's just start in.
And you start showing us book by book, page by page, the things that you have
found.
Well, John, just as we were starting to launch Freedom's Ring, I walked into a
bookstore.
And there was this book, The Keys of This Blood, The Struggle for World Dominion.
Malachi Martin.
John Paul II, Mikhail Gorbachev, and The Capitalist West.
And I instantly knew that was a significant book.
In fact, the first issue of Freedom's Ring dealt with just a quick synopsis of this
book.
And I immediately recognized that this was completely the flip side of the coin of
great controversy.
What Ellen White says in the chapter, Liberty of Conscience Threatened.
Actually, I should back up just a little bit here, John.
We had started a study group in which we were studying the celebration issue.
And we had been studying out of modern revivals and the great controversy,
showing that this Pentecostalism was the foretold false revival that is seeking to
blunt the true.
And, John, really what I see happening right now in the Church is a titanic
spiritual struggle of the Lord trying to bring about the revival of primitive
godliness.
And certain agencies under the influence of Christ's adversary doing everything
possible to block it.
But the connection with the papacy came much more clearly.
I noticed that Malachi Martin tells of how the papacy was involved in bringing down
the Iron Curtain, in the swift developments that took place in Eastern
Europe with the demise of Communism there.
I had also been speaking, John, about Penny Lerneau's book, The People of
God, The Struggle for World Catholicism.
And in this book, Penny Lerneau, who is a liberal Catholic writer and
worker in South America and Inter-America, tells of how John Paul II is wanting to
take the entire world back to the way it was before the Protestant Reformation.
It's a movement called Reconstructionism, and it is a movement that involves
integralism, which means integrating all of life under the domination of the
papacy.
And so I was aware of some of these developments that were taking place.
In Malachi Martin's book, he discusses in a chapter there the picture of John Paul
II contemplating the world scene and categorizing each ideological entity that
he is having to overcome in his drive for global domination over every individual,
over every nation, over every religion, over everything in the world.
And in one compartment, in one room, he classifies the minimalists,
and Seventh-day Adventism appears right there.
It's right in the book.
And the position of John Paul II, according to Malachi Martin, as he surveys
the Seventh-day Adventists and people in that category, the minimalists are people
who don't believe that they will ever have a majority of the human population on
their side.
He says that the Seventh-day Adventists, the minimalists, are going to have to fit
into the New World Order or become extinct.
Or become extinct.
Does that remind you of Revelation 13 about us being killed?
Absolutely.
Verse 15, I believe it is, that they shall be killed.
That if we do not go along with what they want, we will become extinct.
And he says individuals may hold out for a longer time, but it will come to the point
where they'll have to fit in, or else become extinct.
And so, we dealt in the second issue of Freedom's Ring with John Paul's confident
assessment of the minimalists, and Seventh-day Adventists in particular,
that they will be absorbed into the full faith of the Roman Catholic Church,
ultimately.
The thing that was so fascinating for me in your bound volume of Freedom's Ring,
and listen, right here at the outset, let's give your address of how the people
can get copies of Freedom's Ring.
If anybody does not have copies of Freedom's Ring, Bob, do you call it a
magazine, a newsletter?
It's a paper on religious liberation.
A paper, okay.
If you're not getting Bob's paper entitled Freedom's Ring, you need to be on his mail
list.
Give us the address right now, we'll put it up on the screen.
Right now, the paper runs about 18 pages, and the address is Box 200, Hermosa,
South Dakota, 57744.
Now, do you have a subscription price?
How does this work?
Well, we figure that we need to get about $3 per issue to function.
And that's what we ask for as a contribution, as a gift.
And the bound volume of all of Volume 1 and Volume 2, we need a gift of $25.
Okay, so for $25, can they get this complete bound edition that you gave to
me?
What a deal.
From the very beginning, you have made it clear that celebration fits right in to
the Catholic scheme of bringing all the, quote, Protestant churches that have run
away from the Mother Church back into the fold.
Explain how celebration fits into all of this, Bob.
That's the next stage, John.
I was walking through my personal library one evening, and I was thinking how
interesting it would be to lay hands on top Jesuit documents of their plan for
accomplishing what Ellen White says in Great Controversy about bringing all the
churches back into their fold.
And I thought, lacking that, I can deal at least with public material.
And I had a copy of the Vatican II documents.
Now, that's two volumes, isn't it?
Because I have two volumes concerning Vatican II.
Now, was Pope John XXIII...
XXIII called it.
Right, back in 1962, wasn't it?
He actually called it on January 25th, 1959.
Okay, now what was Vatican II?
Okay, John, if I could give a little historical background of celebration,
I'd like to.
Would that be alright?
Absolutely.
First of all, just my encountering the documents of Vatican II, the first section
of the documents of Vatican II is the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy.
Explain that word.
Liturgy means the worship service format.
Liturgy, it means the worship service.
Format.
And that's, of course, what has been agitating our church.
That's what celebration is.
Right.
Now, the Sacred Council, it says here, has set out to impart ever-increasing
vigor to the Christian life of the faithful, to adapt more closely to the
needs of our age, those institutions which are subject to change, to foster whatever
can promote union among all who believe in Christ, to strengthen whatever can help to
call all mankind into the Church's fold.
Accordingly, it sees particularly cogent reasons for undertaking the reform and
promotion of the liturgy.
So, this is the foreword or the preface of Vatican II, that it is out to change the
worship hour of Protestant churches, and to blend them in to the liturgy or the
worship service of the Roman Catholic Church.
Because the purpose is to call all mankind into the Church's fold, and in Roman
Catholic thinking, there's one Church.
Right.
And they're going to use the worship structure, the worship hour structure,
to do it.
Sure.
It reaches the congregation at the broadest level.
Everyone's expected to be there.
At the worship hour.
And page 46 calls on the pastors to introduce it, gradually explaining the
reasons for it as they go along.
We've heard that.
Now, John, when we look at the term celebration, and incidentally,
it occurs on virtually every page of the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy,
as many as 14 times on a page.
Celebrant, celebration, celebrate.
It's all through Vatican II.
Celebration is the Catholic term for its services.
Marriages, funerals, the Eucharist, Mass, they're all celebrations.
In fact, even the Council of Trent was called a celebration.
And in here we have the bull for the celebration of the Council of Trent.
And yet, I felt that I didn't know where it came from.
But suddenly, several years ago, we just began seeing celebration in
everything.
All of our periodicals, everybody was talking about it in the church bulletins.
Suddenly the word celebration just sprang to life in the Seventh-day Adventist
Church.
And I couldn't figure out for the life of me where we got that term.
We started naming magazines after it and everything.
Everybody in all the leadership was talking about celebration this and
celebration that.
Everything was a celebration.
And now to realize that back in 1962, this was the term that was used throughout
the documentation of Vatican II for the worship hour.
And that's where it comes from.
But it's been called... you see, in Roman Catholicism, celebration is a
very ancient term.
It's always called its services celebrations.
Like the Council of Trent was in the 16th century.
And we've just adopted this Catholic term.
All the sessions of the Council of Trent were called celebrations.
In fact, it goes back to the mystery religions in Babylon, ancient Babylon.
They celebrated the mysteries.
But Bob, if it was just the word, that would be one thing.
But we've adopted much more than just the Catholic word celebration.
It's everything that the word celebration in Catholicism entails.
Yes, and the sequence, the historical sequence of developments leading us to the
point we are at now is absolutely fascinating and stunning.
Now, John, a little more history about this celebration.
According to Vatican II, Sunday is the chief celebration of Rome.
The chief celebration.
And in the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy, there is a flow that I began
noticing.
I began underlining things that were paralleling developments in our church.
And I saw that musical celebrations were to be the most effective celebrations.
Music has something to do with this?
And the popular music was to be brought in.
Now, 25 years ago, that was pretty revolutionary.
And we know, we have good friends who were Roman Catholics who are now historic
biblical Adventists.
And they said they noticed immediately after Vatican II, the guitars were brought
in.
The whole music was changed.
But I want to address some of that a little more in depth a little bit later,
John.
Because here's something that tells us, gives us an ominous note as to where
celebration ultimately goes.
And that is, in the Spanish Inquisition, the most pious and the most holy
celebration of the papacy was the auto de fe, the burning of heretics at the stake.
And here I have Henry Charles Lee's History of the Inquisition of Spain.
Now, Henry Charles Lee is the definitive work on this subject.
He went into the very archives of Spain.
It was called a celebrado in the Spanish Inquisition, the service of burning people
at the stake.
They would have people, they would have choirs singing, tediums.
They would have a thousand notables marching.
The king would be present.
And here's a chapter called the celebration, right here.
The celebration.
Celebration of the auto de fe.
And if people found that they were losing their nerve as they watched people burning
at the stake and wanted reconciliation with the church, they could request that.
And the inquisitors would speak with them.
And if they decided to grant them reconciliation, canon law said that they
had to spend the rest of their days in prison.
So you were faced in the Inquisition, if you were even suspect of a heretic,
of being a heretic.
And Leonard Levy, in his Origins of the Fifth Amendment, a Pulitzer Prize winning
book in 1969, says that anyone that got in the toils of the Inquisition, of all of
those individuals, there is not one record of anyone ever escaping unscathed.
So once you were suspected, that was it.
And it was the stake, if you were faithful, imprisonment if you recanted.
So you had to be so totally against the heretics to escape being even caught.
It kind of reminds me of the French Revolution to where anybody that was even
suspect of being a sympathizer was taken to the guillotine.
That's right, John.
And Henry Charles Lee also has definitive work on the Inquisition of the Middle
Ages.
And he tells in this book, this is just a paperback section of it, the three volume
set is about, you know, yea wide.
But he tells of how the Inquisitors would come into an area, they would call all the
population out, and everyone was to tell everything they knew about any heretics.
There was only one area that escaped from this, and that was because the people
covenanted not to tell on each other.
And the Inquisitors couldn't do anything.
It was still in the early stages of the Inquisition.
And they had ways of dealing with that later on.
But betrayal of others was the proof of conversion, you see.
And what happened was the Inquisition was designed to instill terror in the
population.
Utter fear so that the people would subject themselves, tell everything they
knew.
They had records of everything across Europe, and any heretic, their genealogy
was examined, and they kept records for generations.
But Bob, that was hundreds of years ago.
That doesn't have anything to do with the Adventist Church and what we're going
through today, does it?
Well, what does Great Controversy tell us in the chapter, Liberty of Conscience
Threatened?
I'm being facetious, obviously.
I know, John.
That's exactly what it says.
But it's coming back.
It's coming back.
It's coming back, and the Pope is absolutely clear that this is where he's
wanting to take us to.
You see, the Inquisition was the effort to impose uniformity and unity in the Church.
And in the name of unity, they burned people, imprisoned them, cut their tongues
out, tortured them, whatever.
So, what we see of persecution of historic Adventists today in the Seventh-day
Adventist Church is minuscule in comparison to what we are going to see in
the coming months and years.
This is just the beginning.
This didn't start out... the Inquisition didn't start out doing this horrendous
crimes against mankind.
It started out subtly, just as the persecution is starting out now in the
Seventh-day Adventist Church subtly.
But I want to tell our historic Adventist people that we haven't seen anything...
this is child's play in the comparison to what God's people are going to have to go
through from their very own fellow Seventh-day Adventists before this thing
is all said and done.
Bob, how have we played into Rome's hands?
How have we done their bidding?
How has our leadership come to the place where we are following the history of the
Inquisition?
Okay, John, I'd like to look at a sequence of developments here with you on this very
subject historically.
Just look at the facts.
And that's what my concern is, to look at the facts.
In the 1950s, we as biblical Adventists know that there was tremendous ferment in
our church over the evangelical conferences.
1956-1957, questions on doctrine.
And then in 1958, it's very interesting that G.C.
Burkhardt, a prominent Dutch Reformed theologian, put out a book, Recent
Developments in Roman Catholic Thought, where he examined what was going on in the
thinking of Roman Catholicism.
And he warned the world that if they could not take a position of, we know,
based on the Word, they would lapse back into the ex-cathedral decisions of Rome.
The very next year, 1959, Pope John XXIII, January XXV, announces his intention to
call an ecumenical council.
1962-65, you have the Vatican Council meeting, which would forever change the
face of the religious world.
And this, of course, calls for revitalized celebration services to attract the world
back into the fold of Rome.
Now, immediately after that council, in 1966, the Catholic charismatic movement
begins exploding.
And this all can be documented, John.
We have this book, The Pentecostal Movement, by Edward D.
O'Connor, the definitive study of a dynamic spiritual rebirth from the
standpoint of Catholic theology and its significance in Catholic life and thought
today.
Catholics looking at Pentecostalism.
I'd like to see that.
Well, John, there's a lot more.
There's a lot of material that can be produced on this subject.
Catholics looking into Pentecostalism and us understanding today how Pentecostalism
fits in with the Catholic strategy to unify all the churches and how they plan
on using the speaking in tongues and the charismatic movement and how it ties in
with love and unity.
Have we been hearing about love and unity in the Seventh Adventist Church?
We've been hammered with it for decades.
Oh, it's nauseating, Bob.
It's that lovesick sentimentalism that Ellen White talks about.
We have just been inundated from every direction with this banner of love and
unity.
And it comes right out of Vatican II.
I mean, reading this material of yours is just phenomenal.
This is what's going on in the Seventh Adventist Church.
And to realize that it came out of Vatican II in 1962.
And that's what we see, you know, here 30 years later in the Seventh
Adventist Church.
Exactly.
If we are not walking closely with the Lord in the fear of the Lord, we get swept
into all of this.
Unbelievable.
At the end of time, there's only two camps.
Those who are standing on the three angels' messages and Babylon.
And Sarah Diamond, who is a sociologist in her book, Spiritual Warfare, The Politics
of the Christian Right, documents for us how high-level contacts were made then
between the Catholic charismatic movement, which shortly was a million members
strong, and how they joined in the council organization at the highest levels with
the Protestant charismatic movement.
They didn't want the members to know about it.
Oh, everything is a secret.
But they did it secretly.
Yes.
And she talks about that in here.
This is a very fascinating book because she paints the very picture for us there.
Now, we're showing these on screen.
Now, they can pick these up at the public bookstore or public library.
Where can people get these books?
In most cases, you can order them, like, from B.
Dalton Bookseller.
Now, Documents of Vatican II, you can get from Erdman's for $9.95.
They pay the shipping on it.
You may have to special order them.
So, any diligent researcher, though, can get their hands on these books that
you're referring to.
Oh, absolutely.
I noticed here that it talks about how they realized that they must educate the
ministry into celebration.
Oh, yes.
And that's exactly what we see going on today in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Every institution of higher learning was to promote ecumenism.
Now, John, coming in a timeline here, in 1968, it's very interesting what
happened.
Because we joined a significant part of the World Council of Churches called the
World Confessional Families.
And this book documents it, Dictionary of the Ecumenical Movement, which just came
out.
It costs about $70, this book.
But, at any rate, we joined it in 1968, the World Confessional Families.
Now, is that everything to do with the World Council of Churches?
Absolutely.
It's very significant.
Because it is so significant that the top Jesuits, when they go to write a book
based on statements or decisions made by the World Council of Churches,
they consult heavily with the World Council of Churches.
And I'll tell you why.
1968, we joined this.
Now it's called Christian World Communions.
And at the same time, in the same year, the Vatican Secretariat for Promoting
Christian Unity joined.
But our people are told whenever they ask B.B.
Beech or any of these men at the General Conference if we have anything to do with
the World Council of Churches, they categorically deny that we have
joined the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches,
and that we have nothing to do with that.
We're just an advisory type situation, but we're not members.
And they just try to tell our people that this is just these independent ministries
stirring up a tempest in a teapot, and it's not true.
But now you're saying that we're a member of what?
On a technicality, John, we are not a technical member.
But we belong to the World Confessional Families, which the Roman Catholic Church
belongs to.
And the Roman Catholic Church is swinging a tremendous influence in the World
Council of Churches, having joint working groups, etc.
And not only that, but we have been sitting on the Faith and Order Commission.
Now this is a book on Faith and Order 1985-1989, which is the most important
commission in the World Council of Churches.
This is a report on their meeting in 1989.
And right in the back here you can read who our representative is on it.
Dr. Raoul Detteren, Seventh-day Adventist Church, SDA Theological Seminary.
And he's been sitting on this.
We have had a representative on Faith and Order.
And this is one of our major professors teaching our theologians, training our
pastors.
And then we wonder why we hear what we hear from the Adventist pulpits today.
One reason, John, our ministry worldwide could not cope with the Fordite issue was
because they were already several steps down the New Theology from their training.
For decades now, New Theology positions on the nature of sin and the nature of Christ
have been taught at the seminary.
And that's why the rank-and-file minister couldn't come to grips with it,
because he was already several steps down that road.
You say here that the pattern was set, celebrate, then annihilate.
Now what do you mean by that?
Well, that's just what we were talking about.
Because the union of the churches, according to great controversy,
is the last step before persecution.
And persecution, at the end of time, ultimately winds up in the universal death
decree against the faithful.
Bob, can we give encouragement to our historic Adventists that the fact that the
celebration movement from Catholicism has now come in full force into the
Seventh-day Adventist Church, that the next step is major persecution and the
time of trouble, that this is just the precursor of what we're going into as far
as the time of trouble, the beginning of the time of trouble?
John, this is not my position only.
Talking to other prominent, faithful, eminent leaders of our church who are
Biblical Adventists, they concur with this, John, that we are now in the early
stages of something that is going to develop and deepen and become worldwide,
global.
And as we see the New World Order developing, and all of these things,
maybe a little later on we can look at some of the constitutional and
international developments, but all of these things point to the striking
fulfillment of what we have been preaching, John, for years and years.
What an exciting time to live.
What does celebration have to do with the three angels' message?
Well, celebration for the Roman Catholic movement and for the World Council of
Churches is their code term for liturgical change and liturgical matters,
just like Rome's code term for labor unions is what?
Solidarity.
Oh, yes.
You see?
That's here in America as well as over in Poland.
Sure.
So this is their term for the convergence of the churches.
Now, John, by the time we get to 1974, there's secret high-level union taking
place now between the Catholic and Protestant charismatic movements.
In 1977, of course, the world confessional families are meeting in Rome, and our
representative at those meetings, B.B.
Beach, gives the gold medal to the Pope on May 18 of 1977.
In 1981, Father Braun, a Roman Catholic, gives the keynote address at the Full
Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship World Convention.
The Vatican charismatic movement monthly publication in the 1980s, New Covenant,
mirrors the Protestant Pentecostal paper, Charisma.
So you have now convergence taking place.
Now, convergence is a big thing in all of this.
This is a World Council of Churches book entitled, Baptism and Eucharist,
Ecumenical Convergence in Celebration, and that answers your question.
Celebration is the term that is being used here for the ecumenical convergence that's
taking place.
Now, this is dealing with two key areas that Rome is interested in, in unifying
the churches, baptism and Eucharist.
That's so obvious because, you see, celebration totally negates the three
angels' message.
Yes, it does.
It is the opposite.
See, there are two movements at the end of time, and these movements cross all
boundaries.
There is God's movement of the three angels' messages to every nation,
kingdom, and tribe...
Calling people out!
...to pull people out of Babylon, every aspect of Babylonian celebration.
And celebration gets everybody in unity.
And the other movement is the ecumenical movement, which is bringing all the
people, knitting them together in Babylon with the coalition of the papacy,
spiritualism, and apostate Protestantism.
Unbelievable!
So, these two things.
And, you see, we're going to see company after company leave, and tribe after tribe
come in.
There's going to be great confusion and people crossing the boundaries.
But the defining point is the three angels' messages, because that's the
cleaver of truth.
That's the mighty cleaver.
Isn't that exciting?
Now, John, it's interesting.
In this book here, this book came out in the 1980s, and it describes that there is
a two-pronged movement in celebration.
One is to change the liturgies, and as the churches come together
theologically and ecumenically, the liturgy expresses the convergence that
is taking place substantively in the thinking of the churches, and they
converge together liturgically.
So, the first prong is liturgical convergence.
The second prong...
And that's adopting the same type of worship style.
Yes.
The second prong is to bring all the churches under the control of the church.
All the individuals under the control of the church, and the church will regulate
all of human life according to the times.
Does that sound like Daniel 7.25?
What do you mean?
It sounds like the Seventh-day Adventist Church today, trying to control every
portion of our lives.
Well, but I'm talking about a global picture here of what Rome is wanting to
do.
Now, it's interesting that in the documents of Vatican II, part of the
strategy is to bring all the churches together on the matter of the Eucharist.
To bring the Protestant churches closer and closer, and in their Lord's...
Explain to some exactly what the Eucharist is.
All right.
The Eucharist is the dedicated host.
When the priest says...
The little wafer.
The wafer.
The hoc est corpus meum.
This is my body.
Yeah.
Then it is something to be worshipped.
They say it's actually the body of Christ.
Now, John, there were thousands of people that lost their lives for speaking out
against this idolatry.
That one thing.
They would be put to death just for a word against it if they didn't kneel as it went
by in a procession.
Incidentally, processions are being called for.
There is so much that is involved in all of this.
And in 1982, a prominent SDA theologian representing our church signs a certain
critical document, John.
And that is the Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry document in Lima,
Peru.
1982.
We signed that.
Right on the back here, John, it says...
...for the common study and official response of the churches.
They represented virtually all the major church traditions.
Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Lutheran,
Anglican, Reformed, Methodist, United Disciples, Baptist, Adventist,
and Pentecostal.
So it's right there on the back of this document.
Now this document calls for the churches to unify in the areas of Baptism,
Eucharist, which the Ecumenical Council of Vatican II called for.
Incidentally, ask for Volume 1 when you get it from Eerdmans.
Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry.
So the integration of the ministry is involved, John.
And we've been seeing that for years.
In some areas, our Adventist ministers now are the leading ecumenical ministers.
They have been holding the worldwide Week of Prayer for Christian Unity,
which is viewed by the World Council of Churches as one of the most fundamental
things that has to be done for ecumenical unity.
And we are now hearing reports from the East Coast, the West Coast, New Zealand,
Australia, of ministers calling the Lord's Supper, the Eucharist.
They are calling the people forward to receive the bread in the front,
Roman Catholic style.
When I started Prophecy Countdown in 1984, in 1985 the Florida Conference sent a
pastor in to the Bonita Springs Church that I had pastored.
And I stepped down and started doing television ministry through Prophecy
Countdown full time.
The pastor that they sent in to take my place...
I remember how startled I was in our First Communion when the pastor, the Seventh-day
Adventist minister that the conference had sent in to take my place...
and by the way to get me out of that church...
started using the term the Eucharist in referring to communion.
I couldn't believe it.
He started using Catholic terms.
This is the first hint that I had ever had of how our Seventh-day Adventist ministers
were starting...
were being trained to use Catholic terms.
It was unbelievable.
Here in your paper, Freedom's Ring, you not only have that celebration is the
Vatican code word for the new style church services...
but you go on and show how the reading of the Psalms...
Now there is nothing wrong with reading of the Psalms.
I read the Psalms all the time.
But how it plays into the celebration movement.
You also bring in about the physical movements of celebration such as the
applause.
They were necessary, viewed as necessary, physical movement in celebration.
And you have brought in all this stuff and gone to Catholic sources and found...
how that all of this stuff was part of the things that were mandated there out of
Vatican II for celebration.
This is exactly what we have in the celebration movement.
The Garden of Prayer is right here.
The Garden of Prayer.
The applause.
The reading of the Psalms.
The words upon the screen.
I mean...
And then the music.
You go into the music.
How this has all been planned.
This reminds me...
Bob, this reminds me...
of how we as Seventh-day Adventists for years have done research on Sunday
worship.
Yeah.
And how we go back and show people, look.
You know, this thing just didn't all of a sudden happen on the church.
It's been brought in over hundreds of years very slowly and subtly...
how that Satan has brought the Sunday worship in through the Catholic church
into the Christian church.
And that's where we are today.
But I find exactly the same thing with celebration.
It has come to the Christian church and into the Seventh-day Adventist church much
faster...
but in the same way that Satan brought Sunday worship into the Christian church.
It's unbelievable.
You've gone to Catholic sources of research and found all this stuff.
I mean, this is mind-boggling to our Adventist people, Bob.
John, you know, as you look at what's happened in the 80s now...
there is an acceleration that's happened chronologically.
By the mid-1980s, there is a steady stream of literature...
pouring into the hands of Charismatics around the world...
calling for unity.
And the Jesuit cardinal, Augustine B., reports favorably...
on Pentecostalism's fresh infusion of energy into the Vatican effort to achieve
unity.
John, here we have Confessions in Dialogue.
This is a survey of bilateral conversations among world confessional
families.
We belong to this organization in the World Council of Churches...
as well as Roman Catholicism.
Now, in this book, it's very significant and very interesting that...
in 1972, meetings were held between the Pentecostal Church and the Roman Catholic
Church.
The dialogue was between the Vatican Secretariat for Promoting Christian
Unity...
and actually had its beginnings in 1969 and 1970.
Now, the Vatican joined the world confessional families in 1968...
the same year that we did.
In 1969, they're talking with the Pentecostals.
Are you saying or hinting that there is some type of union that has taken place...
between the Catholic Church and the Pentecostal Church...
to use the Pentecostal tongue-speaking charismatic movement...
tying it in with Catholicism to bring a one world church and a unity among all
churches?
Let me tell you exactly what they say.
The concluding sentence of the account of the 1973 meeting...
illustrates the amazing change in mutual attitudes that has occurred within the
last few decades.
Quote, the participants in the dialogue...
now this is between Rome and the Pentecostals...
have become increasingly aware of the growing extent and dimension...
of the Pentecostal churches and the charismatic renewal...
and realized that these movements could have profound repercussions...
on the renewal of the churches and progress towards Christian unity.
You know, it only makes sense that Catholicism and Pentecostalism...
join hands because they are being both led...
have been led from the outset by the same person.
Same spirit.
Same spirit is leading both.
Spiritualism is very deep in the Roman Catholic Church.
Spiritualism and Catholicism and those two unions coming together.
Isn't that exactly what our prophet said would happen?
Exactly.
And so here we have from their own lips...
in the early 70s, late 60s...
their plans of working together for the unification of the churches.
So the Pentecostal charismatic renewal is the vehicle...
which Rome is using to bring all the churches back into her fold.
That's why we have the Pentecostal dimensions...
to the celebration movement in our church.
And how are they tying the Eucharist into all this with Pentecostalism?
That's right.
The Eucharist is seen as the basis for Christian unity.
So that has to do with the Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry document.
Now remember that the documents of Vatican II...
called for unity in the area of the Eucharist.
Now the World Council of Churches takes this up...
and they put out this document, the most significant document...
in the 55-year history of the Faith and Order Commission.
And we ourselves, in our response to it, call it the most significant document...
calling for unity in the area of the Eucharist.
Now right away the Jesuits got on this...
and Carl Rayner, who is probably the top Jesuit of this century...
joined up with Heinrich Freis, a Roman Catholic ecumenical theologian...
and put out this book in 1983, one year after this comes out.
One year after that they come out with their strategy for the unification of the
churches.
Explain what the role of the Jesuits is in the Seventh-day Adventist Church,
Bob...
to those who may not know.
The role of the Jesuits is to undo all that Protestantism has done.
Ignatius Loyola came on the scene about the time...
What is that?
Explain exactly what...
Ignatius Loyola.
That's right.
He is the head of the Jesuits, the founder of the Jesuits...
in the very century that Luther was promoting the Reformation.
The Counter-Reformation was spearheaded by the Jesuit order.
Now, that will tie in...
and I think we want to look at that just a little bit later, John...
that will tie in with the mysticism that is being brought into our churches now...
and the actual introduction of the spiritual exercises of the Jesuits.
But I'd like to touch that a little later on in more depth.
So, you see, not only are we dealing with celebration...
we're dealing with neuro-linguistic programming.
So, this is all going to tie in.
And this is exciting to see the research that you've done, Bob...
It all ties in with the New Age, too.
But right now, let's keep on our track of looking at...
the chronology, John, of this is so significant.
Now, I'd like to just hit a point here...
out of this book which is most significant.
In fact, I came across this book because I was walking through a bookstore...
and noticed this book promoting unity...
themes in Lutheran-Catholic dialogue.
I just opened the book up and I saw on page 58...
here a discussion of Rayner and Fry's book here, Unity of the Churches.
And here is their strategy.
Just the gross strategy, the overview.
And you just happened to find this as you were walking through a bookstore?
Oh, yes.
I case the bookstores carefully.
Just stumble upon this stuff.
In contrast to this, the author writes, George Anderson and James Crumley...
Rayner, that's the Jesuit, and Fry's attention...
focuses on the hierarchical, juridical, and institutional.
So they are interested in bringing about the unification of the churches...
utilizing the hierarchical patterns in the churches...
and the institutional dimension of it.
And the juridical.
Unification is seen as proceeding from top to bottom.
So you get the top ones first...
and it filters down to the lower echelons of the church.
From higher levels to lower ones.
Perhaps the most vivid indication of this...
is when they argue that Protestants on the whole...
are just as passive in their church membership as Catholics...
and therefore can be expected to follow their leaders into union with Rome.
Now, after reading that statement, I knew I had to get Rayner's book.
So I ordered it.
And here is what Rayner says about this very subject.
What he is discussing is his concern about...
how will the leaders of the churches have sufficient authority...
to bring their members back into union with Rome.
He spends several pages on this because he is concerned...
that there might be the possibility that enough vital Protestantism...
may remain, be residual in these churches...
that will rise up and oppose the reunion with Rome.
You better believe there is.
But he thinks he's got a solution here.
And here is what he says.
However, even if one recognizes a significant difference in parish life...
between Catholic and Protestant congregations...
with respect to ecclesiastical leadership...
the average congregation in the Protestant churches, in fact...
usually practices the kind of obedience to their church leaders...
that is customary in the Roman Catholic Church.
I'd like to digress for just a second here, John...
and talk about the way the Jesuit strategy functions.
They like to infiltrate.
They like to change the thinking, the philosophy...
the attitudes, the ideology.
They like to prepare their...
and take plenty of time making their preparation.
And then when the time comes to strike...
they strike with lightning speed...
when they feel that they have gained what they're wanting...
through the honeycombing of the structure that they're working with.
This happened in Eastern Europe.
In fact, by the early 1980s...
Malachi Martin says that the preponderance...
of the Eastern Orthodox bishops and Russian Orthodox bishops...
were prepared to accept the primacy of the Pope.
And when they knew their hour of infiltration had reached far enough...
then they struck.
Bang, bang, bang, bang.
And all those nations fall at their feet.
But now listen here to the rest of this paragraph.
It is so significant.
So, what would they be interested in doing, John?
They want to get the congregation...
so that they have the same attitude toward the leadership...
that the Roman Catholic congregation has to theirs.
Therefore, one should not overestimate the danger...
of a rebellion at the grassroots...
against their ecclesiastical leaders' decisions regarding unification.
On the basis of their theological expertise...
and their religious conscience...
the representatives of this ecclesiastical leadership...
can decide in favor of church unity...
and can also work with sufficient zeal among the church members...
to gain their understanding for this decision.
So, if a grassroots rebellion starts...
all that has to happen is for the ecclesiastical leadership...
to be a little more zealous...
and use their expertise that the average person doesn't have...
to knit them into the fold as they go step by step.
And I will say this, it is a step-stage process.
Yes, we have seen that.
Step-stage process.
We have absolutely seen that.
Now, a number of other significant things...
that Rayner brings out in this book, John...
is that in the world church-to-be...
each church will keep its own structure.
It's far more subtle than most people realize.
Each church will keep its own structure...
and will have its own set of fundamental beliefs...
but they will work together in an atmosphere of reconciled diversity.
And they will ultimately be led to recognize...
the patrine service of the papacy...
as being the guarantor of love and unity and orthodoxy.
The ministries will be integrated...
by working together on the same kind of programs.
And we're seeing that type of thing taking place...
on the local level in our church.
Well, this is incredible stuff that you're showing us.
And it's pretty heavy, you know, deep stuff.
And our people are really going to have to...
probably watch these videos more than once.
They're going to have to watch them over and over again.
I get letters all the time from people saying...
I've watched your NLP one tape ten times.
And if they have had to do that...
in order to absorb all the material that we have...
I can just imagine how they're going to have to...
get these videos and watch them over and over and over again...
to really assimilate everything that we're dealing with here.
Here is something that we just got in the mail.
It's really something.
This day of taping.
This just came in the mail just this morning.
I'll be very honest with you.
I have not had much time to spend with it.
I just summed through it quickly before taping.
I'm going to show it to you for the first time.
This is from Andrews University.
It's their yearbook.
Their joker that shows the pictures of all their students.
And I just want you...
We're going to show it on screen to the viewers.
And I just want you...
with your knowledge and expertise in this field...
to start going through this new picture book from...
Andrews University.
Our Theological Seminary.
Here in the United States for our Seventh Adventist ministers...
and our Seventh Adventist College and University.
And just give your definitions of thought...
in turning the pages...
after we have been hearing and studying about...
what we've been talking about so far.
How this has been Catholicism's plan...
to get all of these churches...
especially the Seventh Adventist Church...
back into the Catholic vice.
And I want you to see what you think...
of this picture book.
This joker.
This yearbook.
I guess it's called The Cast here...
at Andrews University.
Tell us what you think of it.
John, this is one of the most striking things that I've seen.
I heard about this before I came here.
I have heard about it too.
This is the first time I've seen it.
Today is the first time I've seen it.
And the whole...
artistry of the book is...
blatantly...
what is a better word than blatant?
It is incredibly Roman Catholic.
First of all, here right on the title page...
we have the two fingers of the Pope.
The papal sign that Ellen White utterly condemned.
And then we have the picture of...
apparently the Virgin Mary.
It's in the same posture as the Virgin Mary...
as characteristically pictured with a halo.
And then you go through...
a few pages of the...
pictures.
And then you have another figure...
medieval figure with a halo...
of sorts on the head.
And you pass through some more pictures.
And you have a monk with a shaven crown...
pondering with a halo around his head.
Now Bob, what would possess...
Andrews University...
to print this abomination?
You know what I think it is, John?
I think it's the same thing that possessed...
Malachi Martin to write his book.
They are so confident now...
that they are being bold.
Plain.
Bold.
The Roman Catholic plan...
for the takeover of this planet...
is not a secret stealthy thing anymore.
It's open.
It's right there in the open.
Just like Mein Kampf with Hitler.
The next picture...
this is to me probably...
one of the most startling ones in the book.
Most offensive.
And offensive.
Look at the scantily clad aspect of Christ...
and there is the pouring of water...
instead of the baptism.
Totally a Catholic...
method of paganism...
that is brought into the Christian Church.
Incidentally, that fits right in with the theme...
of coming together in the area of baptism...
with the baptism Eucharist and ministry.
Oh, what is that one?
This one...
here you have the papal sign again.
You comment on that one, John, yourself.
Rejoice with me, I have found my sheep.
Look at the two fingers.
Now, why...
I mean...
Do you think...
Bob, do you think that the editors...
of this yearbook...
who are students...
But you have staff working on it, too.
Oh, yeah, I understand.
You have Andrew's staff.
They cannot get...
They can say, oh, well, the students did this.
We didn't have anything to do with it.
That is baloney.
Do you think there's any way, though...
that they could have done this innocently?
Oh, no.
I mean, it's a planned thing.
That's all the artwork.
All the artwork is of this character...
in this book.
And coming along here, we have...
a Catholic rendition of the Lord's Supper.
You have the halos.
And...
coming on further, here's a very striking one.
And at that time, thy people shall be delivered...
every one that shall be found written in the book.
Now, what is that saying?
That's saying that those Catholic people there...
the monks, the priests...
are part of God's people...
during the time of trouble.
And these are the 144,000.
The nuns.
These are the ones that will be delivered.
This is unbelievable.
I mean, did you ever dream that our church...
that our institutions...
that people calling themselves Seventh-day Adventists...
would not only be looking at...
but be promoting and printing...
and endorsing this type of thing...
in the periodicals of our institutions?
And the significance of Andrews is enormous...
because there you have the pastors in training...
the administrators, the teachers...
from the entire world field.
Here's one of a figure with the nun's neck piece...
that comes way up to the chin.
And on the back is one of the most significant of all.
Behold the man, it says.
And there is a Catholic picture of Christ...
with the two-finger sign of the Pope...
with one hand.
And in the other hand there is a crystal ball...
which represents the union of spiritualism...
and the papacy.
That printing from Andrews University...
is absolutely so significant...
that it just shows that everything we've been talking about...
thus far on this video...
is being promoted...
by our Seventh-day Adventist leadership...
by our institutions...
and even by our theological seminary...
that is training our ministers.
Our people need to wonder no more...
why they are hearing what they are hearing...
from our Seventh-day Adventist pulpits.
Our people need to wonder no more...
why they are hearing preached on Sabbath...
things they have never heard preached before...
why they are reading in our periodicals...
things they have never seen in print from the Seventh-day Adventist church before.
They can understand now why there is such a diabolical persecution...
being organized against the independent ministries...
who are daring to stand up against this apostasy...
that is taking place in our church.
I mean, our people surely...
by this time...
anybody who is sincere...
Historic Adventist can see...
the mindset of our leadership...
and where this denomination is headed...
and who is in control of it.
Absolutely.
John, it is absolutely stunning...
and astounding.
It's as if...
in some of the statements I have run across...
and we want to look at some of them in a few minutes...
it's as if we are following the script precisely...
that is laid out.
Following an agenda.
You know...
like you say, a script.
It's like we are following a script.
I can't think of a better definition...
for what it is.
John, in this...
Carl Rayner's book of the unity of the churches...
we have...
some very, very significant things which...
What page are you on there?
Well, it's the next to the last issue, John.
In yours it may be the last issue.
It's like the Jesuits have planned all this...
and we are following their pre-planned script.
Well, I think that when we understand...
what the Jesuits are saying...
and we compare it...
it leads us to some very sober reflections.
John, here on page 8, for example...
there are a number of theses in this book...
unity of the churches.
What month is this?
This would be the October month.
Ok, October 91?
Right, 1991.
The first thesis deals with the use of creeds.
And I'd like to just comment on that for a minute, John.
Because when we responded to this...
Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry document...
you see all the churches are to respond to this.
186 churches...
And the Seventh-day Adventist Church signed with that, right?
We not only signed calling for the unity of the churches...
but we sent in our official response.
And that's in this book...
Churches Respond to BEM...
that's Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry...
Volume 2, the official response.
And the Seventh-day Adventist Church is listed in that official document?
Who was the Seventh-day Adventist representative that signed this?
The one on the Faith and Order Commission, I understand...
Dr. Detterman.
And isn't it amazing?
He teaches at the Theological Seminary in Andrews, right?
Oh, yes.
As for decades.
Absolutely.
John, I first came across the fact that we had responded...
from this book, Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry, 1982-1990...
report on the process and responses.
You see, it's a process of convergence.
And all the churches are responding...
and discussing what they agree with, what they disagree with...
how they react to this statement.
But yet, if you ask any of our church officials if any of this stuff is going
on...
they will lie to our people.
They lie to our people and say, No, oh no, we're having nothing to do with
this.
This is not going on.
And here, these publications that you and your research...
have just gone to the public bookstores and libraries and found...
it lists us and we find out and our people are waking up to the fact...
that our denominational leadership has been involved in this for years.
Right.
Oh, for decades.
And our people have been lied to by our leadership.
For decades.
It's been going on behind the scenes.
Now, I first stumbled on the fact that we had made a response from this book...
on the process and responses of the churches.
And here, it lists a number of categories of churches that responded.
And it says, some communions have adopted one common response.
Roman Catholic Church, Salvation Army, and Seventh-day Adventists.
And the report that was drawn up for the Roman Catholic Church...
was prepared by the Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity in
collaboration.
Incidentally, the Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity...
sits with us on the World Confessional Families...
or Christian World Communions now.
It was prepared by them in collaboration with the Congregation for the Doctrine of
the Faith.
That's the modern term for the Holy Office of the Inquisition.
So, they responded.
We responded.
So, I desperately wanted to get our response to examine it...
and see just what we said.
Because the Unity of the Churches strategy by Karl Rayner...
rests upon the Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry document...
which in turn rests upon the documents of Vatican II.
And in the very beginning of the Unity of the Churches book by Karl Rayner...
it discusses how the book was produced...
in collaboration and in consultation with the World Confessional Families...
which we are a part of...
and the Roman Catholic Church is a part of...
and the Faith and Order Commission, which we have a member sitting on.
I'm just overwhelmed as I'm sitting here listening to you present all this
information to us.
The debt of gratitude, number one, that the historic Adventists owe to you
for the research that you have done...
but also our thanks be to God for inspiring you to do this...
for calling you into this...
because God realized that our historic Adventist people...
had to have a valid researcher that collected all this data...
and we have been involved in this ecumenical movement...
and this joining and clasping the hands of the Roman power...
and bringing Roman Catholicism right into the Seventh-day Adventist Church...
and it's been going on for years...
and how this whole celebration movement has been calculated and planned...
and we are following a pre-set agenda.
I even had, just a few days ago...
a couple sent me a tape of a sermon that was preached in their church...
along with the transcript of the tape...
in which the pastor told the congregation that Catholic means universal.
Therefore, you are Catholic, Adventists.
And he said more specifically, you are a Roman Catholic.
And I listened to it with my own ears on the tape.
And this is a Seventh-day Adventist minister?
Yes, right from the pulpit, Sabbath morning.
Here is the statement I'm referring to.
This book on the strategy...
based on the BEM document and the Vatican II...
is a product of seasoned scholars...
building on the earlier work of the Second Vatican Council...
the Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches...
dialogues and theological reflection in world confessional families...
like the Lutheran World Federation.
So, it's all tied together.
You see, it's all interlocking.
And in the first thesis...
the creedal element becomes very dominant.
And John, this is what is very clear.
What do you mean by creedal?
You mean what's taken from the creed of the Roman Catholic Church?
Let me just read the thesis.
It says, the fundamental truths of Christianity...
as they are expressed in Holy Scripture in the Apostles' Creed...
in that of Nicaea and Constantinople...
are binding on all partner churches of the one church to be.
You see, what the Jesuits want to do...
is bypass the 16th century Reformation...
go back to the way things were before that...
and it is very open that Rayner...
very clear...
that Rayner regards...
and the Jesuits regard...
the Protestant Reformation as a rebellion...
which took place...
but now the churches are laying aside their rebellion.
They have ecumenical consciousness.
They're all coming back to the mother church.
Come back home.
Telling all the Protestant churches to come back home.
Let's have love and unity.
Let's have love and unity and celebration together.
Absolutely.
That's it.
That's the code word.
So, now...
remember how the church went into apostasy?
The arguments from the great controversy were...
that Ellen White records that were current...
when the apostasy was developing...
was that with some concessions on their part...
that's the idolaters...
they proposed that Christians should make concessions...
that all might unite on the platform of belief in Christ.
Yes.
Constantine.
Now, a very important part of this first thesis is...
as they comment on it...
Heinrich Fries comments on it in the book...
the one church to be is a possibility...
only if it is a community of faith.
Now, I ran into that over and over again at the seminary.
In the scholarly writings of the Jesuits and the scholars...
there is this emphasis on the community of faith.
Only the community of faith can do theology.
Only the community of faith is prior to the individual.
The individual is assumed into the community of faith.
What they do is they take the Protestant Reformation...
of the priesthood of all believers...
and turn it on its head.
And the church takes emphasis over the individual.
Now, I have a book over here, John...
that I'd like to refer to.
It's a book by a Jesuit from Notre Dame.
Yes, here it is.
What did he have to say?
This is Mackenzie from Notre Dame...
and he goes in some detail at the beginning of this book...
to describe the fact that the church community...
has priority over the individual.
And the church gives the word to the individual.
Therefore, you see, if that is the case...
then the church is above the word.
Yes.
The word comes out of the church.
Therefore, the church has priority over the word.
And if you don't accept the word of the church...
then you are divisive.
And you're in apostasy.
You're in apostasy and you're a heretic.
That's exactly right.
It seems like I've heard that someplace before.
Yes, and you see, what is the Protestant concept?
The Protestant concept is that the word has preeminence.
Amen.
And the church is to be in submission to the word.
And the message of the word calls the church into being.
That's how our movement got started.
That's why we are Protestants.
That's right.
Because we won't accept the interpretation of the church of the word.
We are the priesthood of all believers who are able to stand on our own two spiritual
feet.
That's what Martin Luther said.
That's what started this whole thing.
John, I want to touch on something here before we move too far.
And I have another book here I want you to see.
You've got a lot of books, Bob.
And, you know, we're just going to keep the tape rolling, brother.
You just show us this material that you've got.
This is a book by one of the most prominent Jesuits, John Kirtney Murray,
Society of Jesus.
We Hold These Truths, Catholic Reflections on the American Proposition.
Now, what this Jesuit does, and he is very intelligent and very keen...
Do you know a Jesuit that is not?
I mean, these guys are masters at what they do.
What this book is, John, he attacks the foundations of the philosophy upon which
our Constitution rests.
And he attacks John Locke.
Now, John Locke propounded the concept of the law of nature upon which our concept
of inalienable human rights, natural rights, rests.
He attacks that, and he says that is selfish.
And what we need is Roman Catholic natural law, in which he makes a sharp distinction
between the law of nature of John Locke and Roman Catholic natural law.
Now, Roman Catholic natural law...
That's what Clarence Thomas, all through the hearings for Clarence Thomas,
that's what I kept hearing over and over and over again, was this natural law.
What was he talking about?
What's this natural law that Clarence Thomas was talking about?
The one who developed it to its apex was Thomas Aquinas, the greatest systematic
theologian that the Catholic Church has ever had, and it rests on Plato's
Republic.
And what it means, basically, John, is that this man is attacking the
Protestant foundations.
You see, in the Protestant thinking, the priority of conscience, in direct
submission to the Word and to Jesus Christ, assumes precedent.
And the concept of the priesthood of all believers was so powerful, and the
experience of the Reformers was so strong, and in the Puritan movement, that
government had to shape itself around that.
Churches had to shape itself around it, like Ellen White says, that the Pilgrim
Fathers that came here founded a nation without a king, and a church without a
pope, because individual conscience was supreme.
Now, if vital Protestantism is gone, and that supremacy of individual
conscience in relationship to God is gone, natural law can move in, because in
natural law, the individual submits to the order imposed by the church and the state.
So, this natural law that our new Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas believes in,
is Catholic-oriented.
It is a Catholic law.
And when he was talking about natural law, he was talking about a Roman Catholic
principle.
Well, they are studying this book at Catholic universities.
This is Catholic thinking.
This is the Catholic blueprint for undermining and destroying our
Constitution.
But why I point this out, John, is because this Jesuit attack upon the
primacy of individual conscience is so broad and far-reaching, it's hitting every
aspect of our society, as well as our church.
And what we're struggling with in our church right now is, which concept is
going to be supreme?
Is the word going to be supreme, and the individual conscience in
submission to that word, which is Protestantism, according to Ellen White's
chapter on the protest at Spires?
Conscience is above the church?
Or will it be a situation where the church dominates the conscience, and the
conscience has to submit to church structure and government structure?
That's the struggle that's going on in Seventh-day Advent church between the
organized conferences and the independent ministries.
And the independent ministries are pleading with our people to please read
and study on their own.
It's the Protestant concept of doing your own reading and researching and standing
on your own spiritual feet.
And the conference is saying, just trust us.
Stay with the conference.
The church is going through, and the church is the conference.
The conference is the church.
And just trust us.
And if you need to know anything, it will come out in the Union paper or in
the Adventist Review.
Just trust.
It's this... I see now...
It is the struggle between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism taking place right
now in our church.
In the Seventh-day Adventist church.
And that's the struggle between the independent ministries and the conference.
Is the principle of Protestantism versus Catholicism.
You realize that as long as we've been in this struggle, that I have never realized
that it was Protestantism versus Catholicism.
I mean, it may seem elementary and simple to you, but I have to be totally honest
with you that this is the first time that I have really understood this.
For what it was, that we're dealing with Protestantism and Catholicism between the
independent ministries and the organized conferences.
One is people standing on their own two spiritual feet, and the other is trust the
church.
And it is a fierce battle.
Believe me.
It is a fierce battle.
Unbelievable.
And that's why this book, Great Controversy, every lesson in it we have to
have mastered.
Oh.
Every lesson.
I tell you, I just feast on that book.
If there is one thing that people have learned from my videos, it's my love for
the Triumph of God's Love, the Great Controversy.
And I just love that big Karl Porter edition there with the big print.
And I just go through it.
When I get to the end, I go through it again.
If our people were just reading and studying, they could see this thing for
what it is.
That's right.
It's a struggle between Protestantism and Catholicism.
Absolutely.
And this struggle over the Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry document is
precisely that.
Because let me read to you a little bit out of the Waldensian response.
You know the old Waldensians?
Oh, yeah.
They responded to this.
Now, I don't believe they should be in this process any more than we should.
But they were notable for their rejection of the basic premise of the BEM document.
Whereas we were noted in the materials that came out from the Faith and Order
Commission in this book, we were noted as being one of the most affirmative churches
in affirming our appreciation...
To the Roman Catholic Church.
...to the Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry document.
We, as well as the Roman Catholic Church, were noted in here for our appreciation.
Well, that's why we have the Roman Catholics coming to our general conference
sessions in Indianapolis and addressing the group and welcoming them.
And why we are just mollycoddling the Roman Catholics.
Because we are one of the Protestant churches that is being the quickest to
clasp the hands of the Roman power.
It's absolutely unbelievable.
And still, our faithful Adventist people that have been in the church all their
lives are saying, Just stay with the church.
The church is going through.
Did you read that article in the recent review with the ship on the front?
Was it by Roger Kuhn?
Who was it by?
The article on, or maybe it was Robert Olson, about how the church is going
through and twisting the writings of Ellen White showing that the conference is the
church.
We've got to stay with the conference.
And our people are just accepting this stuff.
Do you know why, Bob?
They're not studying.
I took the words right out of my mouth.
They're not studying.
Our people are not studying.
No one of us, I believe, understands the gravity of this issue.
Because Satan's plan, according to Great Controversy, is to get people away from
studying for themselves and to put their confidence in pastors, teachers,
professors of theology, and church leaders.
She's warned us.
It's there.
But the Waldensees, what did they say?
They had the strongest criticism of all the churches.
Among this group of critical comments, the strongest ones come from the
Waldensean and Methodist churches in Italy.
Their synod points out, together with differentiations and affirmative remarks,
that BEM, quote, indicates a convergence in a sacramental and clerical direction,
that's what we're talking about, which is opposite to the direction in
which the gospel calls the church in its witness in the world.
And that, quote, this ecumenical document centers the faith, communion, and
Christian witness not on God and the gospel, but rather on the church as a
sacred structure that has and gives guarantees of the Spirit's activities
through a cast endowed with priestly powers, mediatorial and representing the
divine.
And that is exactly the struggle that we're in now.
Bob, you keep referring to this BEM volume.
Okay, this is volume 6.
That has the Roman Catholic response in it.
Now this has the Seventh-day Adventist response in it.
Okay, now all these... I just realized they all have these three wavy lines all
the way.
What are these?
Do you think there's any significance to these three wavy lines on all these?
Now these are the responses...
The responses of the churches to the document.
Of the churches to Vatican II?
Well, in essence, that's what it boils down to because the Baptism, Eucharist,
and Ministry document rests on that.
Who's this printed by?
This is printed by the World Council of Churches.
Do you think there's any significance to these three wavy lines on all of these BEM
documents?
What do you see in it, John?
I see something that very closely looks like our new in-gathering brochure.
Is that right?
There are three wavy lines almost in all the artwork on every page of the new
in-gathering brochure to be used for this year's in-gathering campaign.
There are three wavy lines.
And then it comes down to the end to where it just goes into one wavy line.
Now, do you see anything in these three wavy lines of apostate Protestantism,
Catholicism, and Spiritualism?
Well, there's three parts to Babylon.
I know that.
And then at the end it goes into one line to where it takes the three elements of
the three unclean spirits like frogs that go together into one at the very end of
the brochure.
It's startling.
And I see these same three wavy lines on all of this stuff that's from the World
Council of Churches.
I see it on this.
It's even on the BEM document.
Is this the first time that you've noticed this?
I didn't.
It didn't register with me about the three lines on every one of them.
Have you seen our in-gathering brochure?
No, I haven't.
Oh, you haven't.
So I'm telling you about this for the first time.
That's right.
We're both learning today.
I'm noticing that on all of these books you've got, we've got these three wavy
lines on all of them.
And this is exactly the three wavy lines that are in the new Seventh-day Adventist
in-gathering brochure.
And it represents apostate Protestantism, Catholicism, and Spiritualism.
And they're all coming together.
You know, this is just incredible stuff, Bob.
John, you know, what led us into all of this was the fact that as I breezed
quickly through the Seventh-day Adventist response here, I underlined and made notes
where we referred to the fundamental beliefs.
Because the first part, the very first thesis of the strategy for bringing all
the churches together, the Jesuit strategy, is this matter of a creed and
the community of faith.
Incidentally, there was a recent editorial in the review that strongly supported this
concept of the community of faith and opposed the idea that anyone could develop
theology in isolation, like Noah or Elijah or Moses, you know, or anything like this.
Anyway, over and over again, the fundamental beliefs are referred to.
There is not one direct quote from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy in our
response.
All we refer to is our creed.
Fundamental beliefs.
Have we adopted a creed, Bob?
Well, de facto, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it's in the review editorials.
We have established a creed and that has become our document of faith.
But what is so significant about it, John, is that the Jesuits like to have a
church moved on to a creed because then they can work that creed.
And the creed can change and evolve into bringing all the churches back together.
It sure is.
Does our church manual change?
You better believe it does.
To the whims of the conference brethren, they change it.
I will say that they did a rather strict analysis in comparison to our fundamental
beliefs.
And they did even make the comment here that the BEM document is too Catholic in
intent.
But I would emphasize that there is always a staged development in the process.
And you see, the fact, this crucial fact for me, is that it's resting on a creed
now.
Our response to this.
First of all, we shouldn't be in the process of ecumenism at all.
Second of all, the fact that we are now resting our case on a creed, which is
changing steadily.
I just thought of something, Bob.
I'm not trying to change the subject.
I just thought of something and I want to comment on it.
Do you realize what you are opening yourself up to?
Coming here to Prophecy Countdown and appearing in this video with me.
They have absolutely unleashed the demons of hell upon me and this ministry.
Every type of diabolical smear tactic that they possibly can use against me,
they have used.
And are continuing and it is intensifying daily.
They have disfellowshipped me personally.
They have disbanded my church.
They have done every form of persecution that is legal thus far.
They have hired a full time pastor, taken him from his church to do nothing
but in private investigation try to dig up dirt on me.
And have made the rounds of all former employees of Prophecy Countdown.
Disgruntled church members of the Rolling Hills Church.
Anybody that has anything that is of a disparaging nature that they can come up
with against Prophecy Countdown.
They are even trying to come up with a video to refute what I am doing.
Do you understand and have you understood before this moment what you were doing
when you appeared on this video with me.
And the truth that you are bringing out.
Do you realize how this is going to shake up our Adventist people when they see
this.
I mean and from what I understand from you Bob.
The tactics that they are using against me to discredit me in this ministry and
trying to crush what I am doing.
And to stop this material going out to our Adventist people and to diffuse it.
Also is right out of the Roman Papacy.
And right out of the tactics used by the Jesuits.
First off I want to ask you if you realized what you were getting into when
you came here.
And number two how it plays into the whole scenario of Catholicism bringing the
Seventh-day Adventist Church back into the fold.
And all the Protestant churches back to the Mother Church.
And if this has been used in the past.
And if it has anything, the tactics that are being used against this ministry and
me have anything to do with the material that you have already shown us.
John, first of all for the first question I realize what I am doing coming here.
We are in a war.
Absolutely.
The devil is making war against the remnant.
And I would like to get another book here.
Bob go ahead and bring as many books as you need over.
If we need to move some of these off we will.
Well first of all, John, the subject of rumor is an interesting one.
In the Inquisition popular rumor was used as the basis for apprehending people and
dragging them into the Inquisition.
The use of rumor and propaganda was used against Martin Luther.
And I would like to just bring you something from D'Aubigny's history of the
Reformation.
Oh, Ellen White loved that book, didn't she?
Yes, she and James would read it for hours every Sabbath afternoon.
So they used these same tactics against Martin Luther.
Well, that makes me feel better.
Well, here is the situation.
You know, Staupitz introduced Luther to Christ.
Right, he is the one that brought him into...
But now as the heat came upon Martin Luther something happened to Staupitz.
Some of his friends seemed inclined to retrace their steps.
Staupitz, whom he designated his father, appeared shaken.
The Pope had accused him, and Staupitz had declared his willingness to submit to the
decision of his holiness.
I fear, wrote Luther to him, that by accepting the Pope for judge, you seem to
reject me and the doctrines I have maintained.
If Christ loves you, he will constrain you to recall your letter.
Christ is condemned, stripped, and blasphemed.
This is a time not to fear, but to raise the voice.
For this reason, while you exhort me to be humble, I exhort you to be proud.
For you have too much humility, as I have too much pride.
The world may call me proud, covetous, an adulterer, a murderer, anti-Pope,
one who is guilty of every crime.
So it all came in on him.
They accused him of all those things.
What matters it, provided I am not reproached with having wickedly kept
silence at the moment our Lord said with sorrow, I looked on my right hand,
and beheld, but there was no man that would know me.
The word of Jesus Christ is a word not of peace, but of the sword.
If you will not follow Jesus Christ, I will walk alone, will advance alone,
and alone I will carry the fortress.
And so Luther recognized that he was in a battle.
They used propaganda warfare of rumor against him to try to destroy him.
In fact, a lot of Daubenier is occupied with that.
It's an old tactic.
Go ahead, John.
Well, that is incredible that this man that was responsible for bending Martin
Luther's early relationship with the Lord and establishing Martin Luther in the
faith, eventually turned against him, said he had gone too far, accused him of
all these treacherous deeds, and went heading back towards Rome.
Can I identify with that?
Wow!
I mean, that has happened to me.
I mean, men who I fellowshiped with at one time and were very close to have now
turned against me and accused me of the very things that they accused Martin
Luther of and have headed back towards Rome and say that I have gone too far.
I'll have to be honest with you.
I can really identify with that.
Well, John, another thing.
Martin Luther was accused of dividing the church at the very time when it needed to
be unified.
The Turks were banging at the gates of Vienna.
They had swept across North Africa and up into Spain.
They were threatening the very existence of Christendom.
And people came to Luther and they said, What are you doing splitting the church
with your doctrine at this very critical hour when we need church unity above all
else?
And Martin Luther said, Our safety lies in obedience to the Word.
And, you know, it was the same with the Waldensees.
I have a tract at home in which the Roman Catholic Church accused the Waldensees of
being opposed to church unity.
And this is something very common.
And here is an argument also which is used.
Here was a Miltitz who was trying to win Martin Luther over with a very kindly
approach, with a very thoughtful and accommodating approach to try to squelch
the Reformation through kindness at the very beginning.
My dear Martin, said the Pope's chamberlain in a fawning tone,
I thought you were an old theologian who, seated quietly at his fireside,
was laboring under some theological crotchet.
But I see you are still a young man and in the prime of life.
Do you know, continued he, assuming a graver tone, that you have drawn away
everybody from the Pope and attached them to yourself?
Have you ever heard that argument?
Exactly!
You know that I am some self-proclaimed Messiah that is supposed to...
Well, how ridiculous!
Number one, I'm not self-proclaimed.
And number two, I'm not setting myself up as an example.
All I'm saying is get back to the Word.
Get back to thus saith the Lord.
Read and study for yourself.
And using these tactics of slander, you were telling me earlier, Bob,
that this is not only the tactics of modern warfare and that we can go back for
some time and explore that, but it's also incorporated by the Pentagon, by the CIA.
How does all of this tie in?
I would like to know.
I want to look at that in just a second.
Here is... the nuncio went on saying that he had...
...that you yourself have inflicted on the Church and that you alone can heal.
Beware, said he, dropping a few tears.
Beware of raising a tempest that would cause the destruction of Christendom.
Oh, the destruction of the Church.
We've got to do something.
The Perth Declaration.
And now that I've read about how the conference presidents and union presidents
are not happy with the Perth Declaration and they even want them to put more bite
and teeth into it and call us by name and say what we are doing and just really
getting vehement against the independent ministries that are daring to reveal to
our historic Adventist people what is really going on in the Church.
John, it's interesting that Hitler understood the use of propaganda very
powerfully.
In fact, from the time of Marx and Engels on, in modern strategy, in the study of
modern strategy, warfare is conceived of, first of all, as being diplomatic.
That's like what the nuncio was doing with Luther.
Diplomatic, ideological warfare, propaganda warfare, economic warfare,
and military is only at the last resort.
You can even look at the Kuwait War for that.
But here's what Hitler said.
He said, the place of artillery preparation for frontal attack will in the
future be taken by revolutionary propaganda.
He explained, in this way he would conquer the enemy's sight before his armies needed
to fire their guns.
How to achieve the moral breakdown of the enemy before the war has started,
that is the problem that interests me.
And so Hitler was interested in how to break down the moral defenses of the enemy
by using propaganda.
To wipe them out psychologically, to wipe them out morally.
And here we have, published in Freedom's Ring in our last issue, our
November-December issue, a course outline from the Pentagon that was used in
training Latin American military officers on the utilization and containment of
rumors.
How to use rumor to destroy the enemy.
And copies of this and other courses taught at the School of the Americas in
the Panama Canal Zone have also appeared in the Jesuit magazine, Diagolo Social,
published in Panama City.
And so this is a course, and we have the outline here, in how to utilize rumor to
destroy the enemy.
One interesting formula in it is PR equals I times A.
The power of the rumor, PR, equals I, the importance of the theme it refers to,
times A, the ambiguity present.
And so the objective of the course is to teach the dynamic of the procedure for
disseminating rumors.
Now, we're looking at a tremendous artillery barrage.
You know, at the end of World War II, the Russians, when they began their last
assault against Germany, unleashed 1,000 artillery pieces at the same time,
early one morning.
And we're now in a tremendous artillery barrage of propaganda.
It's not stopping now.
It's going to continue.
It's going to increase until God's people are made the objects of universal
execration.
We have to count the cost, like Jesus said.
Count the cost and see whether you're prepared.
And I want to tell you, this Perth Declaration is the first major barrage,
salvo, from the denominational leadership against the independent ministries.
Really organized, calculated, orchestrated attack, like the 1,000 pieces of artillery
by the Germans at one time.
And it's just the beginning, folks.
It is just the beginning.
They are starting the intense persecution on the independent ministries because we
have dared to wake up the sleeping saints in God's church and show them the stuff
that's been going on for years right under our nose and nobody knew it.
And praise God that He has raised up men like you to do the research to reveal to
God's people what is going on.
And I want to tell you, when our people see this research that you have done,
Brother Bob, they've got to make either two choices.
Either for Protestantism or for Catholicism.
That's what it's all coming down to.
You either accept Protestantism or you accept Catholicism.
That's it.
And Protestantism comes down, in the final analysis, to the three angels' messages.
Absolutely.
In verity.
You know, one of the methods of dissemination, according to this course,
is the use of agents.
And it says, friends in the affected region originate the rumor within the
group and they will create it by means of questions that insinuate their responses.
And they will encourage sympathizers to disseminate stories and to distort them.
And in a state of friendly confidence, they will spread the rumors.
Friendly confidence.
Does that have anything to do with NLP?
Getting a person on your side?
Pacing?
Mirroring?
Imaging?
You know, all of these different techniques taught in NLP.
How to get a person on your side.
Get into their mind and work their mind around to your way of thinking and get
the...
It all fits together, John.
All fits together.
And what the devil is wanting to accomplish is to completely, with a
knockout blow, nip in the bud the attempt at a revival of primitive godliness.
Exactly what Satan is trying to do.
That's what Satan is trying to do.
That's the purpose of the celebration movement.
Yes.
The purpose of the charismatic movement.
The false revival.
The Catholic charismatic movement.
I... so many things are bursting on my consciousness as I talk with you.
This sounds elementary and I'm kind of afraid to say it, but this is the...
And I guess I knew it all along, but maybe this is the first time that I've
put it together and verbalized it.
To realize that the celebration movement totally negates the three angels message.
And the celebration movement has been organized and formulated to counteract the
preaching of the three angels message.
Absolutely.
And John, thesis number two of the Jesuit strategy is that nothing may be rejected
decisively and confessionally in one partner church which is binding dogma in
another partner church.
Do you understand that?
That means that anything that the Roman Catholic Church holds cannot be decisively
rejected in the world church to be by another group or entity.
You cannot condemn Sunday keeping, you see, the Eucharist, any of that.
That is all part of the strategy for the world church to be.
Bob, it's just dawning on me here, something I've said in letters to our
constituency for some time now, but now as I'm beginning to assimilate all
of this information that you're giving us here, it's just becoming so clear that if
we are going to preach the three angels message to the world, the laity have got
to do it.
Our denomination and our leadership and our church is not going to preach the
three angels message to the world.
We quit doing that years ago.
And if we are... and they are even... not only are they not going to preach the
three angels message, they quit that years ago, but even if we're not going to preach
it, they have now formulated a strategy to crush the preaching of the three angels
message and to negate it.
Not only are they not preaching it, but they have now brought in celebration
which totally strikes at the heart and does away with the preaching of the three
angels message.
So not only are they not going to preach it, but they don't want us, the laity,
to preach it either.
And that's what celebration is all about.
And so what God's historic people, Adventist people must do is get serious
about formulating our own plans through the power of the Holy Spirit to preach the
three angels message to the world.
We're the ones that are going to have to do it.
We are the ones whom God is calling to preach the three angels message to the
world.
Exactly.
And our weapon is the weapon of truth and the Holy Spirit.
We can only use the weapons of heaven.
And if we start to use the weapons of the enemy, we move over into his camp.
So practical godliness is so critical and that we have the actual spirit of Christ.
Now it's very interesting.
In commenting on this thesis about no one condemning anything that's in another
church, Carl Rainer says, and this is his reasoning and it fits in exactly with what
the Great Controversy says, he says that no one can depend anymore on his own study
to form his conclusions and his worldview.
Quote, as an individual, one becomes ever more impotent.
One has to depend more and more on the knowledge of others which one can no
longer assimilate or check oneself.
In other words, we have to depend on the ecclesiastical authorities.
And he points out the holy office of the Inquisition, the sacred congregation for
the doctrine of the faith as being the only body that can approach to this kind
of competence in dealing with this.
Incidentally, John, as you were talking, I remembered that one of the strategies of
Carl Rainer in his book is that the ecclesiastical leadership of each church
is responsible for maintaining discipline in its own ranks along the drive toward
union with Rome.
Maintaining discipline, getting rid of the dissidents and the ones who are divisive.
And have you noticed that just in the last several years have they added the clause
to their creedal document, the church manual, that gives another reason for
church discipline, and that is being divisive.
That was never part of the creed of the Seventh-day Advent Church before until
recently because they wanted a way to disfellowship and get rid of the
independent ministers.
That's all in canon law, John.
Absolutely.
It's right out of Roman Catholic canon law.
Canon law is the Catholic article, the Catholic institution of law,
this natural law, this Catholic law.
Let me get you a copy of it, John.
So canon law is Catholic law.
You need to make sure that people understand because I know throughout
Freedom's Ring you refer to canon law and they need to understand that what you're
referring to when you say canon law is Catholic law.
Oh, absolutely.
This was promulgated by John Paul II in 1983, Code of Canon Law.
And in this book, at the back you have the sequence for trials under canon law.
Now that's a whole other subject, John, which I hope if we have time we can
get into, the difference between Roman Catholic canon law and English common law
and American constitutionalism.
Our whole system of law that we have in America rests upon English common law,
which battled against canon law in providing safeguards and guarantees for
the people of England and then ultimately in America.
For instance, under canon law you could be arrested in the middle of the night under
suspicion because of rumor.
The judge can make the decision to have you arrested himself.
You can be arrested in the middle of the night.
Your family don't know where you've gone.
You're in prison.
You can be judged by the judge in secret and put to death in secret.
No one ever knows what happened to you.
That's what happened during the Dark Ages.
During the Dark Ages, yes.
Now, under English common law, first of all, if someone comes and takes
you away in the middle of the night, your wife can get a writ of habeas corpus
to demand the jailer to show cause why you are in prison.
Here is the body.
You bring the body up out of the jail.
Here is the reason he's in.
And then the accusations have to be made in public by an accuser.
The judge is impartial.
There is a jury that decides, of your peers, that decides whether you are guilty
or innocent.
And then the impartial judge will mete out the sentence.
And in our whole Bill of Rights, there is the defense against Roman
Catholic canon law.
Now, that's why, with the new Supreme Court, which has been brought into
position through the use of the abortion issue, and that's a whole other subject,
John, we'll be here for days, the new judiciary and the new executive and
legislative aspects of our government are all slanted now in a direction in which we
are rolling back the clock and we are moving back to canon law.
Even in decisions like Arizona v.
Fulminati, the dissenting justices said, we have now, in this case, turned away
from our accusatorial legal system and accepted the inquisitorial system.
Because now, forced confessions can be accepted in court.
Okay, speaking of common law and canon law, which law was it that was followed
when the Florida Conference disfellowshipped me and they told me that
my invitation to appear before them was rescinded and that I was taken off of the
agenda and behind closed doors, behind my back, in secret, they
disfellowshipped me from the Florida Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.
Was that common law or canon law?
Well, it certainly wasn't common law.
Basically, they followed step-by-step the canon law procedure for the removal of a
pastor.
Now, what is that?
In your disfellowshipping.
The Catholic procedure for removing a pastor?
Right.
What is that?
What is the agenda for that?
Well, we go through it here in the last issue of Freedom's Ring.
Does that have anything to do with the way that the Seventh-day Adventist church
leadership is now removing historic Adventist pastors from their leadership
positions?
Not only that, but...
Removing people from their church offices?
Exactly, yes.
In fact, in your case, it got to the point there at the end where they swept aside.
And what I'm saying is they're following, they're paralleling it, whether it's a
conscious or unconscious thing, you know, God only knows.
They followed parallel the process, according to canon law, for the removal of
a pastor in your disfellowshipping process.
But at the end, as things intensified, they swept away even canon law and used
what they had in the Inquisition, where there were no laws.
And everything had to be swept away in the attempt to deal with the offender,
so he wouldn't get out of their grasp.
Does the situation now transpiring in Troy, Montana, have anything to do with
canon law to where they are now?
The Montana Conference has informed the Troy church that unless they disfellowship
me, that they will disband their church?
Well, John, backing up a little bit to some of the earlier questions,
canon law declares in canon 1311, the church has an innate and proper right
to coerce or force offending members of the Christian faithful by means of penal
sanctions.
And canon 1312, number 2, says the law can establish other expiatory penalties which
deprive a believer of some spiritual or temporal good and are consistent with the
supernatural end of the church.
Then canon 1331, number 1, says an excommunicated person is forbidden,
1, to have any ministerial participation in celebrating the Eucharistic sacrifice
or in any other ceremonies whatsoever of public worship.
Number 3, to discharge any ecclesiastical offices, ministries, or functions
whatsoever or to place acts of governance.
And then number 4, he cannot validly acquire a dignity, office, or other
function in the church.
Then in the area of controlling revenue, number 5, he cannot appropriate the
revenues from any dignity.
Have you noticed revenue is a big issue?
Oh, that's the big thing, of course.
That's why that tithe booklet was in the recent Adventist Review.
Any dignity, office, function, or pension in the church.
Canon 1333, number 4, a suspension forbidding one to collect revenues,
stipends, pensions, or any other such thing.
And then there are punishments for violating unity, you see.
Offenses against religion and the unity of the church.
Canon 1364, number 1, with due regard for canon 194, number 1.
Number 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic or a schismatic, incurs
automatic excommunication.
So, you see, if you are a heretic or a schismatic, you incur automatic
excommunication.
Number 2, if long-lasting contumacy, in other words, lack of submission,
or the seriousness of scandal warrants it, other penalties can be added, including
dismissal from the clerical state.
Canon 1369, a person who uses a public show or speech, published writings,
or other media of social communication to blaspheme, seriously damage good morals,
express wrongs against religion or against the church, or stir up hatred or contempt
against religion or the church, is to be punished with a just penalty.
Now, it's interesting that the early Christians were called haters of the human
race.
Tacitus records that for us in his Annals, how the reason the people were burned in
the time of Nero was because the population regarded them as being haters
of the human race.
So, what we're moving into at the end of time is a situation where the unregenerate
mind is going to look upon the faithful as being haters and not going along with love
and unity.
Then there's a section on punishment for offenses against leadership.
Title 2, Offenses Against Ecclesiastical Authorities and the Freedom of the Church.
Canon 1371, the following are to be punished with a just penalty.
Canon 1373, one who publicly either stirs up hostilities or hatred among subjects
against the apostolic see or against an ordinary.
An ordinary is a person who has been given direct office, such as a pastor or
whatever, on account of some act of ecclesiastical power or ministry or
incites subjects to disobey them, is to be punished by an interdict or by
other just penalties.
Canon 1374, one who joins an association which plots against the church is to be
punished with a just penalty.
One who promotes or moderates such an association, however, is to be punished
with an interdict.
This is all canon law, Roman Catholic law.
And then, listen to Canon 1404.
Being followed by the Seventh Adventist Church in 1991 to the letter.
The question you have to ask is, where does it say all these things in
Scripture?
It doesn't, or in the Spirit of Prophecy.
If the Scripture is our norm for activity, where are all of these other things coming
from?
It comes right out of Roman Catholic canon law.
Listen to this one, Canon 1404.
The First See is judged by no one.
That's like Robert Falkenberg.
The Pope is judged by no one.
The Adventist Pope is judged by no one.
The manner of procedure in removing pastors, Canon 1740, when the ministry of
any pastor has become detrimental or at least ineffective for any reason,
he can be removed from the parish by the diocesan bishop, Canon 1741.
The reasons for which a pastor can be legitimately removed from his parish are
especially the following.
Number one, a way of acting which is gravely detrimental or disturbing to the
ecclesial community.
So if a pastor acts in such a way that the rest of the ecclesiastical community is
disturbed by him, that's justification for removing him from his parish.
Like showing all the pastors that have been trained in hypnosis.
Right, sure.
Canon 1742.
This canon requires the bishop to paternally persuade the pastor to resign
the pastor within a period of 15 days after he has explained for validity the
reason and arguments for removal.
Canon 1744, number one, if the pastor hasn't answered within the aforementioned
time period, the bishop is to repeat the invitation, extending the available time.
Number two, if the bishop has the proof that the pastor has received the second
invitation, but hasn't responded, and if the pastor refuses to sign,
giving no reason, the bishop is to issue the decree of removal.
Canon 1745, if the pastor opposes the cause alleged for removal and its reasons,
the bishop is to, number one, invite the pastor to organize his challenges to
removal in a written report, having inspected the acts, and also to offer
proofs to the contrary, if he has any.
Number two, consider the matter with the same pastors in committee, that is.
Number three, determine whether or not the pastor must be removed and promptly issue
a decree on the matter.
Now there was a decree, I think you're probably aware, John, that was issued
regarding your disfellowshipping that went out across the nation.
Canon 1747.
Okay, are you talking about telling them about it?
Yeah, telling them about it.
Yeah, they sent a fax and a letter to every conference president, and then the
conference president sent it to the pastors, and the pastors read it from the
pulpit.
Canon 1747, number one, the removed pastor must abstain from exercising the office of
pastor, vacate the rectory immediately, hand over all that pertains to the parish,
to the one to whom the bishop shall entrust the parish.
Well, those are just a few of the canon laws.
We're following the Roman Catholic canon law to a T.
Well, what's going to happen, John, is in the New World Order, as Rome takes
over, according to Revelation 17, I believe we're going to see the complete
takeover of canon law replacing our Constitution.
Ellen White says that every Republican and Protestant principle of our Constitution
will be repudiated.
And you can see, according to this, that anyone that speaks out against the
Pope, or in any way ruffles the thinking of the Roman Catholic Church, will be
subject to penalty.
As we are tabling this, this is the first week in December, 1991.
Have you seen in the news this week, Bob, about how the Roman Catholic Church
is getting so involved in this New World Order, and how everybody is looking to
Pope John Paul to have a major role in this New World Order?
I mean, even the news media.
I mean, I have seen it in the newspapers and on the newscast several times just
this week, about the New World Order and the part that the Roman papacy and Pope
John Paul II is playing in this.
Exactly.
I mean, all the pieces of the puzzle are fitting together.
Even, John, the Genocide Treaty, for example, and in our Constitution,
under Article 6, Number 2, any treaties that we make become the supreme law of the
land.
And this is designed to target anyone who promulgates hatred against a class or
religion or group of people.
But hatred is in the eyes of the beholder.
And just like the ancient Roman populace called the Christians the haters of the
human race, so the, quote, Christian world, which is really an apostasy at the
end, will regard the true faithful ones as being haters of the human race,
and they'll become subject under these laws.
But look, that goes all... I mean, I cannot help but think of Elijah,
when King Ahab said, Thou the trouble of Israel.
I mean, you know, the ones who have dared to speak out against the apostasy of
leadership have always been accused of being the ones who bring all the trouble.
And the haters of unity, and the haters of peace, and the haters of the human race,
and all the troubles have been blamed on them because they dared to speak out
against the apostasy.
I mean, that's been going on for thousands of years.
It's going to happen on a massive scale, John.
But are our people ready, Bob?
Are our historic Adventist people ready for this stuff that's happening?
I don't think any of us are ready, John.
But through the strength of the Lord, the weak can become as they...
I am fearful for our people.
I'm fearful for our people.
Our people are calling...
You know, we have six nationwide watch lines that used to be just good in the
United States.
Well, now we have 1-800-HIS-LOVE that's good in all of Canada, you know,
almost all of North America now, 1-800-HIS-LOVE.
And our Adventist people are calling from all over North America, Alaska,
Hawaii, Canada, all the provinces, and even Puerto Rico and the Virgin
Islands, and calling us.
And our staff are just on the phone.
I mean, you know, just yesterday, our switchboard operator was just
absolutely exhausted by the time 5 o 'clock.
She was just absolutely exhausted.
Bless her heart.
Linda just said, Pastor John, she says, almost all six lines have been lit up all
day.
You know, it just seems that that is almost all we do.
And our Adventist people are just calling and just pleading for help, and telling
the things that their pastor has said, stuff their pastor is putting up on the
bulletin board about us, the tremendous slander and rumor that is being
promulgated from the conference to the pastors, and the pastors to the church
members about us.
And it just seems that our people cannot withstand the onslaught that is being
brought against them by the leadership.
And I'm fearful, Bob, I'm fearful for our historic Adventist people.
I really don't believe that they or any of us are ready for this tremendous Catholic
onslaught that is coming to us through our leadership.
Absolutely.
You know, Alvin Toffler, the renowned social thinker who wrote the book Power
Shift, says in that, and I think it's a word of wisdom, we see all these blips of
information that come by, little scraps of this and pieces of that, and it's too much
to try to deal with every blip.
But if we can look at the picture strategically, and that's what we're
wanting to do here today, what is the strategy?
What is God's strategy at the end of time?
What is Babylon's strategy?
And what we're doing is we're looking at the sources of Babylon to see what their
strategy is, and if it's in exactly with what God told us the strategy would be.
And when we can deal with it, and we can cope with it much better when we see the
whole picture, the strategy, and how all these pieces all fit together,
and what we're dealing with.
We are in the last days, John.
We are in Revelation 12-7 right now.
Now this top Jesuit, Rayner, in his strategy for the unification of the
churches, says that actually the only requirement is that these other churches
not reject out of hand an explicit doctrine of the Catholic Church as being
irreconcilable with the fundamental substance of their Christianity.
The development of ecclesiastical consciousness in all the churches has
progressed to such an extent that this is possible.
Now that is a statement astoundingly like the statement that Malachi Martin makes
about how the Jesuits knew when the time had come to strike in Eastern Europe
because all of these bishops had been prepared to accept their pope.
And the Seventh-day Adventist people are being prepared for this massive blow of
Catholicism to bring us into...
To receive the mark of the beast.
Bob, let me just ask you.
I have several things written down here on this pad.
I want to talk about the traditions or the techniques of modern warfare.
And I want to also talk about how New Age and mysticism plays into this complete
strategy of preparing the Seventh-day Adventist people for receiving the mark of
the beast.
Okay.
John, could we hit that one on NLP chronologically?
Yes.
I want to go through the rest of the 80s.
I just want to make sure that we don't miss it.
If we're dipping a little too much into the Jesuit strategy here, we can get back
on with the chronological development in the 80s.
Would you like to do that?
Maybe, Bob.
Maybe.
Okay.
But maybe what I'm saying here, maybe I just slipped something in on our
Adventist people watching this that they didn't realize.
Okay.
This is all heading towards God's Seventh-day Adventist people receiving the
mark of the beast.
Exactly.
I guess maybe this is the first time we have come right out and said this.
Folks, this all is a plan for Seventh-day Adventists to receive the mark of the
beast.
That's where all this is heading.
You know, we're laying the foundation here and seeing this whole strategy.
And the end result is that Seventh-day Adventists receive the mark of the beast.
That's where all this is heading.
That's where the devil wants.
That's where all this is heading.
Exactly.
Incidentally, the Jesuit also calls for... he says that the churches now have become
so liberal in their thinking that they're prepared to slough off most of their
doctrines.
And this is one of the most effective things in bringing about unity.
Boredom, he says, is also a critical element.
And most people will be bored with most of their doctrines and they'll push them
aside.
Now, that gives us a little taste anyway.
There's loads more that could be said about the Jesuit strategy.
But in 1985, this book, The Church is Charismatic, came out from the World
Council of Churches.
So, the Pentecostal movement, speaking in tongues, is endorsed as the common
denominator of the World Council of Churches.
Oh, yes.
I just want to make sure our people understand that.
Page 1.
The Charismatic Renewal can be seen as a Christian variation of a worldwide
religious revival.
Page 21.
The Charismatic Renewal has the potential to extend the contemporary ecumenical
movement to communities within Christendom which so far have kept aloof from the
development of ecumenism.
Now, this is 1985 when this comes out.
They come right out in public and they say that now the Charismatic Renewal has the
potential for penetrating churches that the ecumenical movement has not yet been
able to penetrate.
You see, when the Jesuits move in on a church, they have this whole hierarchical
approach of working from the top down.
But it is also necessary, according to Rayner, to gain for each church entity,
each leadership of each church, to gain a majority of its members to be in
support of the drive for unity.
You just said something I want to go back to and I want to make sure that our
Adventist people understand this, that the Jesuit plan of attack and the
method for infiltrating any denomination is to start at the top and come down.
Not start with the laity and come up, but to infiltrate the leadership and then
to let it trickle down.
That is very important because that is exactly what we see happening in the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Would you like a case in point?
If you just happen to have one, I'd love to hear it.
I have another book here.
Now listen, do I need to start getting some of these books off, Bob?
You need some more room?
Some of them I'm still, unless you think there's going to be too many here.
As you're bringing books over, I'll just start loading them off on the
floor here.
So you just keep bringing those books over.
This is by B.G.
Wilkinson.
Used to be president of the Washington Missionary.
Amen, a historic Adventist.
And he uncovered a Jesuit.
Most historic Adventists know the story.
And incidentally, it's been just reconfirmed by the man who was at that
time academic dean of Washington Missionary College.
When he was president of Washington Missionary College, what was this,
in the 40s?
Yeah, 30s and 40s.
So he uncovered a Jesuit on staff, a professor on staff then.
That's right.
Bless his heart.
And in the early 40s, a friend of my mother told me on the telephone of her
experience.
She and her husband lived in the married student housing.
And incidentally, we have a tape called The Witnesses where she tells this story.
Gallimberti, a Roman Catholic priest, was baptized into our church, professed
conversion, got into the theological studies.
But every night he had to, at 9 o'clock, report on the telephone.
And her husband understood Spanish and understood what he was saying.
Ultimately, he was uncovered.
There's a whole string of them that we could tell about.
We have had some experiences right here in this ministry of Roman Catholics that
converted to Adventism in their adult life.
And I will be very honest with you, it will be a long time before I put a
converted Roman Catholic that has been born and raised in the Catholic system and
educated in the Catholic system and converted to Adventism in their adult
life.
It will be a long time before I put them into a leadership position in this church
and ministry again.
Listen to this.
This is from Dr. De Sanctis, who for many years was a priest at Rome, professor of
theology, official theological censor of the Inquisition, and who later became a
Protestant.
He tells of his interview with the secretary of the French Father Assistant
of the Jesuit Order.
Here's what he said.
They were having trouble infiltrating the English church.
Quote, the English clergy were formally too much attached to their articles of
faith to be shaken from them.
And he said you might have employed in vain all the machines set in motion by
Boussuet and the Jansenists of France to reunite them to the Romish church.
And so the Jesuits of England tried another plan.
This was to demonstrate from history and ecclesiastical antiquity the legitimacy of
the usages of the English church.
Whence through the exertions of the Jesuits concealed among its clergy might
arise a studious attention to Christian antiquity.
Jesuits concealed among its clergy.
Tell me something, Bob, do you believe that there would be any attempt for the
Jesuits to infiltrate the independent ministries?
Would that sound logical to you, Bob?
It would be the most logical thing in the world.
It would be the most logical thing because what they want to do is to silence any
voice raised against Rome.
In fact, the Catholic Campaign for America, which was just launched a few
weeks ago, had as one of its primary objectives to silence anyone speaking out
against Rome.
So, back to this church's charismatic document here.
In 1985, the World Council of Churches says now we can use the charismatic
movement to penetrate churches that have not yet succumbed to ecumenism.
Next page, page 22.
We venture to express two hopes for the emerging dialogue.
Firstly, and this is the critical one, we hope and pray that the charismatic
renewal will not be too hastily classified, labeled, and thus isolated.
John, when this whole thing was getting started of the celebration movement with
its Pentecostal dimensions in our church, do you remember what the leadership said?
Let's wait and see.
Oh, that's what they're still saying.
Let's not classify it.
Let's not classify it too soon.
This has been their pat cliché from the very beginning.
Let's just wait and see.
Wait and see.
It fits exactly.
If it's of God, it'll prosper.
But if it's not, well, we don't have to worry about it.
God will take care of it.
Let's just wait and see.
And this has been what every one of our church leadership has said about the
celebration movement.
Let's just wait and see.
Does that have anything to do with the strategy plan of Catholicism?
Well, that's it.
It's like those statements were right out of the script here.
It's exactly what the World Council of Churches said should not be done.
Let's not classify it too closely.
Wait and see.
Let's not isolate it.
Let's not label it.
Now, next page.
Divisions are not His, that is the Holy Spirit's doing, but due to human sin.
What did Christ say?
I came not to bring peace, but a sword.
A man shall be divided against the members of his own household.
Well, at any rate, that tells us a little bit in the mid-80s what was brewing behind
the scenes.
We didn't yet have the full impact of celebration at that time.
But it was the plans that were developing in the ecumenical movement.
I want to make sure that our people understand what you're endeavoring to do
here.
From what I can see, it started in the 70s or 60s?
It started in the 60s.
60s?
50s?
The theological base of the New Theology is Roman Catholicism, original sin,
and the pre-fall nature of Christ.
That's Roman Catholic doctrine.
Okay, if you...
Salvation in sin is Roman Catholic doctrine.
First we said 70s, then 60s, then 50s.
40s, 1946 is when the nature of Christ was taken out of Bible readings for the home
circle.
When that disappeared about Him coming in our fallen nature, the 1946 edition of
Bible readings for the home circle.
Then the Barnhouse and Martin Eternity magazine thing in the 50s.
And questions on doctrines.
So the church has been shifted over to a New Theological base?
But we can go back to the 30s and the 20s where we first adopted accreditation for
our colleges.
You know, so how... we can just keep going back.
1909, a Jesuit professor was kicked out of Mount Vernon College.
You know, we can just keep going back.
But let's go forward now.
You have got us up to now the 1980s.
Mid-1980s.
Okay.
1985.
At the November 1985 meeting of the Society for Pentecostal Studies,
Dr. Vincent Sinan outlined the coordination of Pentecostals with their
Roman Catholic counterparts.
At the meeting, the Roman Catholic priest Peter Hawken was named president of the
Society for Pentecostal Studies.
So now they are laying a battle plan, a blueprint, coordination.
That's all documented in this book, The Pied Piper of the Pentecostal
Movement, The Spiritual Power of the New World Order.
Who printed that?
This is a Bible Baptist minister who printed this.
You see, people from the outside, people outside the Seventh-day Adventist
Church realize what is going on.
This is why in my very first celebration video, and I showed articles from
Christianity Today, and these quotes from The Salvation Army Magazine, and these
other Christian churches that are seeing what's going on in the Adventist Church,
and The Pied Piper, that's exactly what's going on.
Our people are just following our leadership, having no idea what is going
on.
And Christians in these other churches outside of the Seventh-day Adventist
Church are looking and saying, look what's going on in Adventism,
and our people, it's The Pied Piper following our leadership.
We have no idea.
And when I show our Adventist people what other churches realize, and what we are so
blind to because of our blind faith and trust in our leadership, our people are
just amazed and shocked that all this stuff has been going on, and we never knew
about it.
1986, John, the Shepherding Cell Group movement moves into the mainstream of the
charismatic movement.
Now, in the mid-1970s, Pat Robertson condemned the Shepherding Cell Group
movement.
Incidentally, let me get another book here, John, because the roots of this are
very...
I'm going to start taking some of these off.
Very significant.
Don't take any that are... yeah, take the ones that we've already dealt
with.
They'll be on the floor if you need them, Bob.
You've got to have some room here before they all start falling off and we have a
big, mighty crash here.
They'll all be here if you need them.
Where did the Cell Group come from?
Now, this is one of the definitive work on brainwashing by Robert J.
Lifton, prominent scholar, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism,
a study of brainwashing in China.
Now, what is totalism?
Totalitarianism.
I see.
So, where you totally take control.
Yes, like communism, you see.
And in this book, he talks of how Cell Groups were used in the Communist Chinese
Revolution and how the Cell Groups were so effective in dealing with the Westerners
that they captured.
From Cell to Celebration.
Does this tie in with that?
Well, let me give you a little history of the Cell Group, John.
Absolutely it ties in.
Now, it was very effective, you see, in changing the thinking of dissidents,
Cell Groups.
I want to make sure you just don't slip through this stuff.
Changing the thinking of dissidents.
Absolutely.
That is exactly what our periodicals are trying to do today.
This is exactly what the Perth Declaration is doing.
This is exactly what our leadership is trying to do.
Propaganda warfare against the historic Adventists in the Seventh Adventist
Church.
Trying to twist, get them around to their way of thinking.
That's the whole purpose of NLP.
That is the reason that the Seventh Adventist Church, more than any other
denomination on Earth, has embraced neuro-linguistic programming.
It's because there are all these, quote, dissidents in the Seventh Adventist
Church and the leadership has to somehow deal with them and get them over to their
way of thinking.
So how do you do that?
You look at history.
In NLP, you hypnotize them.
Not only that, but the small group.
The cell group.
Absolutely.
And it ties right in with the hypnotic process of changing a whole set group of
people's thinking.
This is considered to be one of the most profound books on this subject.
And there are case examples in here of how cell groups were used in brainwashing.
Now, what's interesting, John, is that the shepherding cell group
movement was adopted by Paul Yonggi Cho.
Dr. Paul Yonggi Cho, incidentally.
Is he the pastor of the largest church in the world?
Largest church.
50,000.
South Korea.
500,000.
Half a million.
I thought it was 50,000.
Half a million.
He's got a church of 500,000.
A few years ago it was a quarter of a million.
That's why, don't you want a 500,000 member church, John?
I don't know how they'd all fit in here.
We're packed now.
Look here, the third item in the bibliography.
Dr. Paul Yonggi Cho, successful home cell groups.
So, over in South Korea, he adopted the cell group concept and built his church up
from 600 to half a million.
And it, of course, captured the attention of the charismatic churches around the
world.
He is one of the most prominent speakers and promoters of this.
Now, when this movement came into America, it had many abuses.
It was a very totalitarian type of dynamic operating in these small groups.
They'd have a leader, an assistant leader.
They were requiring people to produce their checkbooks to show where they were
paying their tithe.
I've heard of that!
This is exactly what we see going on.
When I go speaking, John, I had a group from a church come up to me and they said,
We have a celebration church.
We have cell groups in our church.
And in our cell groups, every person is to expose what's in their inner heart.
We are each one to write that down and turn in the report to the pastor.
You see, NLP and small cell groups are being used also as the Adventist
confessional.
I had a woman call me up.
She said, I just had a divorce.
My husband married another woman.
The pastor took me in for counseling.
He's had the labs.
And I told him all kinds of things that I felt I shouldn't have afterward.
He asked me to even write this stuff out.
I wrote it out.
I turned it in to him.
I was apprehensive.
I asked for it back.
He said he had thrown it away.
There's case after case of this that is coming to our attention.
And in the Roman Catholic Church, on Saturday afternoons now, they have
reconciliation services.
If a person doesn't like the old style confessional, they can go to
reconciliation services.
They all sit in a circle, like a sensitivity group or a small group,
and everyone confesses to everyone else.
This reminds me of what so many of our Seventh-day Adventist churches have now.
They have a traditional service, and they also have a celebration service.
Whatever way you like it, that's the way they have it.
They have two services, a traditional service for the traditionalist,
and a celebration service for the celebrationist.
And you can have it any way that you like it.
And one of the concepts, of course, in the celebration is everything that
we've studied thus far.
But is this thing that takes the place of the Catholic confessional?
Yes.
Oh, and why the confessional?
That is the most powerful information-gathering tool the Roman
Catholic Church has had for centuries.
Why do we want an ambassador at the Vatican?
Because they have the best intelligence-gathering network in the
world.
And the confessional, historically, has been used to gain information and thus
control over nations, over individuals.
You find out what's going on in their inner heart.
But, you see, because of these abuses, Pat Robertson spoke out against it in the
early days.
But then, by the mid-1980s, 1986, suddenly Pat Robertson welcomes them with
open arms.
They all make up, and the cell group movement moves into center stage in the
charismatic movement.
And it forms the basic unit and tool in the promulgation of celebration churches.
Now, new theology pastors have been using this for years in America.
I can think of one right now that came over from Australia.
And cell group was the basis of his celebration church.
The Coalition on Revival, COR, which is pushing for a totalitarian
Christian America.
That's a fundamentalist, charismatic movement that crosses all kinds of
boundaries.
It's a powerful behind-the-scenes element in politics.
It is pushing for a Christian America in which every person's conscience will be
subject to the person above them.
They call for all pastors to restructure their congregations into home cell groups.
Home cell groups.
Have you heard that term any place?
It's a revolutionary technique, John.
It's a revolutionary technique.
In fact, the Reconstructionists, who are high in the levels of the
Coalition on Revival, say that Gary North, who is the second in command in
Reconstructionism, says that Rush Dooney, who is the top man, is the Marx and I'm
trying to be the Engels of this movement.
They're obvious revolutionaries.
I just think that this home cell group concept that is advertised by the Oregon
Conference and all of our periodicals, and they're now going around all over the
country promoting this and teaching it to all the pastors and to all the
conferences, is just a wonderful new method of evangelism for the Seventh-day
Adventist Church.
And it came not only out of Catholicism, but has come out of strategies for
thousands of years to brainwash people.
Communist Chinese movement, basis in modern times.
And now we come down also in 1986, Wilson Ewen, the author of this book,
he's a pastor, he warns, The developing story of ecumenical unity continues at a
staggering pace, and when the Vatican's dream of a corporate and global religious
complex with the Pope as head is shortly realized, Pentecostalism will stand
accused before a holy God of being the chief instrument in having brought this to
pass.
Pentecostalism is the thread that runs through all of this endeavoring of the
Roman Catholic to bring the churches back...
It's the chief tool to bring all the churches...
It's the chief tool...
And to create the New World Order.
It's the spiritual power of the New World Order.
One of the two things that we are seeing being manifested recently in the
Seventh-day Adventist Church, just in the last several years, Pentecostalism and
Catholicism.
Everywhere we turn in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, we are seeing either
Catholicism or Pentecostalism.
You know, through the music, through the artwork, through our periodicals,
through the stuff coming from our church, the two main thrusts.
Those are the two things that have joined hands.
It's Catholicism and Pentecostalism.
And apostate Protestantism.
Which is the three unclean spirits like Saul.
That's right.
I mean, it's prophecy before our eyes.
That's right.
Why are our people so blind?
Why can't we see this stuff, Bob?
Well, my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, John.
It's so clear, as I'm sitting here talking to you.
It's so clear what's going on in our church.
That's right.
This is an orchestrated attempt.
Now, I am not and neither are you saying that all of our leadership understand
what's going on.
But it only takes even one person in a movement to channel them all in that
direction.
That's right.
But they are being guided by a strategy, by a script that many of them don't even
know that they're following.
But you see, on the basis of submission to one superior and to the church as being
the final authority, they fit right into the plan.
Right into the plan.
You see, all you have to do is bring in this concept.
And incidentally, John, this is a Jesuit concept.
Let me get a book for you.
You just keep bringing the books over, though.
You just keep bringing us through time.
Now, we're in the late 80s now?
1986.
Okay, the strategy.
In the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, John, we have a section
entitled, The Rules for Thinking with the Church.
And here is what we read.
In order to have the proper attitude of mind in the church militant, we should
observe the following rules.
Putting aside all private judgment, we should keep our minds prepared and
ready to obey promptly and in all things the true spouse of Christ our Lord,
our Holy Mother, the Hierarchical Church.
Is that part of the Jesuit oath that you are totally dead and you just do whatever
you are told to do by the church?
Exactly.
It's not only part of the Jesuit oath, but it is involved in the training of the
Spiritual Exercises.
That's what this is.
This is the manual which the initiates into the Jesuit order go through for four
weeks, for 30 days.
They are led through these Spiritual Exercises, which now have been introduced
into our ministry and are being used in our churches now.
For the purpose of creating a mentality of what is called by them, Cadaver Obedience.
Cadaver Obedience.
That's part of the Jesuit oath.
That's it.
Now here is number 13.
If we wish to be sure that we are right in all things, we should always be ready to
accept this principle.
I will believe that the white that I see is black, if the Hierarchical Church so
defines it.
For I believe that between the Bridegroom Christ our Lord and the Bride,
His Church, there is but one Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation
of our souls.
For the same Spirit and Lord who gave us the Ten Commandments guides and governs
our Holy Mother Church.
So you see, there is the concept of automatic identity between Christ and the
Church.
Therefore, you have to be prepared to believe that the white that you see is
black, if the Church says that white is black.
The Church is going through.
She is the object of God's supreme regard.
And the Conference is the Church.
Therefore, stay with the Conference.
Do what we say and you will be saved.
It's this cadaver mentality that our Adventist people have that the Conference
is the Church.
Therefore, you stay with the Conference and you are going to Heaven.
God help us.
It's right out of the Jesuit plan of giving total mind control, total
totalitarianism to the Church.
That's right.
And the spiritual exercises are used to accomplish that purpose.
I believe that's probably why we're...
It's the brainwashing of the Adventist people.
That's right.
In fact, not only the Adventist people, but historically Heinrich Himmler used the
spiritual exercises to form the Nazi SS.
One million men.
He had a special work for them to do and part of it was running death camps.
You gave a whole issue, or maybe even more, of your freedom's ring to how this
all worked in Nazi Germany.
That's right.
You want to just touch on that?
Sure.
How was all this used with Nazi Germany and with Hitler and what did Catholicism
have to do with that and how does that tie in with present-day Adventism?
Can we hit that chronologically?
We're almost to it, John.
You know, I'm just thinking of all of these things and I don't want to leave
anything out.
I don't want to leave anything out.
That's why I'm trying...
You keep saying those things and I'll keep trying to move us chronologically.
I'm going to write it down here.
Okay.
Now, I want to give you another statement, John, from this pastor who wrote this
book, The Pied Piper of the Pentecostal Movement.
For twelve centuries, papal Rome has planned and worked to impose church rule
over mankind.
Pressure has come through navies, armies, including the Nazi regime,
torture and the stake.
All have failed.
Then in 1963, Pope John XXIII put in motion a Vatican II council device for
world religious unity.
It was a vital step in a final thrust for success, the strategy of ecumenism.
And the Holy See awaits with open arms and complete satisfaction as the Pentecostal
Movement hastens that impending hour of disastrous triumph and vicious control.
And so now we are in the late 1980s.
The Celebration Movement is taking hundreds of SDA churches by storm with the
speed of lightning.
And then in 1989, the spiritual exercises of the Jesuit order are introduced into
the SDA ministry and congregations and they spread across the land.
They're being taught from the West Coast to the East Coast, Canada, Andrews.
It's called cataphatic prayer imaging.
It's a modern term for it, John, and it's catching on hundreds and
thousands of miles.
I want to bring you some more books here, John, on this subject that you just asked
me about.
And that is the connection there with Nazi Germany.
Oh, by the way, you know that in-gathering brochure I was telling you about?
Terry Ross just handed it to me.
And maybe we should, you know, I'll show it on screen as we were talking
about it there.
But it's just amazing how these three wavy lines go right through it.
And it even has one here of the fellow worshiping the sun with the three wavy
lines and it going into one.
Our people should be looking at this new in-gathering brochure.
It ties right in with what you're saying here.
Okay, our authorized Bible vindicated.
I'm going to lay it by Wilkinson.
I'm laying that down here.
And if you need any of this, just holler and I'll get it for you.
We've only got so much room on this little table.
Okay, what are you going to show us now?
All right, John, we want to look now a little more closely at the spiritual
exercises because they're coming into our church now.
I listened to the tape by Bill Loveless last summer.
Yes, the one you had on your tape.
Yeah, my first NLP tape.
And as I listened to it, I had the earphones on and I had this book,
The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, in my lap.
And I was thumbing from one page to the next, following along as he was leading
them in the spiritual exercises.
So in our July issue of Freedom's Ring, we laid it out one half of a page against
the other half.
On one side, the spiritual exercises quotes.
On the other side, Bill Loveless' quotes in that workers' meeting where he led the
workers in the spiritual exercises.
Pastors.
And what is behind the spiritual exercises?
Well, Ignatius Loyola developed these exercises to combat the Protestant
Reformation.
And in Munich, in Bavaria, in the Counter-Reformation, the Jesuits moved
into that area and they held that area against the Protestant Reformation.
They taught the spiritual exercises to the common people.
Incidentally, the Roman Catholic Church is trying to accomplish that very thing
today.
As I was going in to take care of my father when he was passing away from
cancer, he was in the hospital.
And I turned on the radio at 3 o'clock in the morning and an NPR station was
carrying a BBC broadcast by a Roman Catholic priest advocating the spiritual
exercises for the common man.
And that's what we are being taught.
Unconditional love.
That's what we are being taught in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Now, what happens in the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius?
It is mysticism, first of all.
St. Ignatius' profound precepts of mystical theology.
It is a form of mysticism which brings together the mystical approach of
Catholicism in the medieval times.
Along with Ignatius' own discoveries.
He wrote a journal.
Journal entries, which we are seeing everywhere all of a sudden.
It's in Becoming a Master Student.
It's being utilized by Bill Loveless.
Everyone is writing a journal.
It's called for here in the spiritual exercises of Ignatius.
But basically what happens, the man entering the Jesuit order goes through
this 30-day program in which he learns to surrender his conscience to his superior.
Now, this very thing is happening within our own church.
And I know the story of a historic Adventist church school teacher who stood
up in behalf of the truth and ran into opposition from the conference office.
And the conference president told him that if you're having trouble accepting my
position on this, then you're going to have to surrender your conscience and
accept my conscience.
That's exactly what the spiritual exercises are designed to do.
And the avenue by which they accomplish that is they use the imagination to
control the will.
Now, Ellen White says that a surrendered will is to control the imagination.
So you see they've turned that around backwards.
And so to control the will, they use the imagination to accomplish that.
Imagine that you are by the sea.
Imagine, paint the color of the sky in.
Imagine that you see Jesus.
Imagine, you know, what is he wearing?
What are you wearing?
Where are you?
Imagine yourself.
You know, we went through all of that with this Bill Loveless thing.
And that's what's being taught.
It's even being taught to our youth now in the December 30, 1992 devotional.
Oh, okay.
Bring that up.
Let's show the people right now.
Now, I want to tell you something.
That this is what we have had so many phone calls from college students in our
colleges.
And they say this stuff is being taught all over the place in our youth
departments, in our periodicals.
Not just Bill Loveless in a one-time incident with our ministers.
This is going through our church like wildfire, just as Celebration did.
All of these concepts that came out of Catholicism that you're showing to us
today.
Right.
Now, at the Nuremberg trials, Walter Schellenberg, and this is quoted in The
Nazis and the Occult, Walter Schellenberg told of how Heinrich Himmler, who was in
charge of the Nazi SS, had the best library in all of Europe on the Jesuits.
He had an uncle who was a Jesuit.
And he would spend hours every evening perusing in that library.
And he built the whole Nazi SS up based on the spiritual exercises.
He wanted men who had no conscientious scruples personally that would block them
from obeying orders.
And so he accomplished the cadaver obedience he was after by inculcating them
in the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius.
Is it not only possible but probable that the reason Celebration, NLP, all of these
techniques are being used on our people and have been brought into the Seventh-day
Adventist Church is to give Adventist people a cadaver obedience to the
conference?
Absolutely.
Not only the conference, but to the papacy ultimately.
Ultimately to the papacy.
Ultimately to the papacy and ultimately to the devil himself.
To where they will one day receive the mark of the beast.
Conscience is silenced.
Bottom line.
Not only that, but they can also become the worst persecutors.
Because look at what the Nazi SS did.
Isn't that what our prophet tells us?
That's how they do that.
That's how our former Adventists become our worst persecutors is because they have
succumbed to this type of thing.
John, in Heinrich Himmler's experience, he not only used Western mystical,
quote, Christian or papal mysticism, Vatican-type mysticism, but he also was
into Eastern mysticism.
He told his doctor that he never made a move without the Bhagavad Gita.
What is that?
Bhagavad Gita is the Hindu Bible.
Ah, okay.
And they like to say that it's older than our Christian Bible.
At any rate, he was deeply... he read the Rig Vedas.
He read all of this Eastern writings.
The Eastern writings.
He was into Eastern mysticism as well as Western mysticism.
And Bill Lovelace basically is a blend of the two.
Now, Bill Lovelace at the beginning of his talk mentioned Morton Kelsey.
Ellen White's writing was just like that of Morton Kelsey, as you recall.
And here's Morton Kelsey's book, Companions on the Inner Way.
I'd like to just bring you a couple of statements from this book.
A little of Kelsey's thought.
This point of view gave rise to a rich and lively devotional practice which animated
the early church and continued through medieval times.
There are a few more magnificent spiritual writings than those of Bernard of
Clairvaux, Mother Julian, a number of others here.
It is just these magnificent writings that Paulist Press is bringing back into
publication.
The actual religious practice of the Middle Ages as it took place within the
monastic communities was gathered together and systematized in classic form by
Ignatius of Loyola in his spiritual exercises.
So, you see, what Bill Lovelace says is, you know, we're not getting into Eastern
mysticism here.
We're into Western mysticism.
And that's the spiritual exercises.
But actually it's a blend of the two as you listen to it.
This is what is known as the cataphatic tradition of prayer.
Prayer that uses images in devotional practice to mediate the divine.
Now, incidentally, this practice of creating your own image of Christ in your
imagination...
Explain cataphatic.
Cataphatic is the term that's used for the spiritual exercises.
Okay, that's the term...
That's a modern term for putting across the spiritual exercises.
The idea that you can create the divine, create the creator, is very much like the
Eucharist, you see.
The creature creates the creator.
This is also divination.
You divine, you divine, you conjure up your God, you see.
And then you make your God do what you want.
Oh, and that's exactly what Bill Lovelace did with those pastors.
He conjured up Jesus.
Yeah, you conjure up your God, you have him come through the door,
you have him sit down in the chair you want him to sit.
You say the things and he says the things back.
Oh, it reminds me of the spiritualist medium, the Witch of Indore, how they
conjure up...
It's witchcraft.
Exactly, that's what it is.
Here's another statement from Morton Kelsey.
The spiritual exercises of Ignatius of Loyola gathered up and systematized with
genius the religious practices that have been normative for several centuries in
Christian devotional practice.
So he is a big promoter of the spiritual exercises, you see.
And that's the one that Bill Lovelace compared to Ellen White.
Right, now the other one that he compared her to, he compared her to Buddhist
writings, but he also compared her to William Johnston.
Sophia University in Tokyo.
Alright, now here I have the cloud of unknowing with an introduction by William
Johnston.
This is the same William Johnston.
The Jesuit?
He is a Jesuit professor at Sophia University in Tokyo.
Now in order for William Lovelace to know about these, he has to be reading their
books, he has to be reading their works.
How can you read and absorb all this stuff without becoming influenced by it?
This is what worries me about you.
You're doing all this research and I'm just praying, and I know that you have
too, that God will protect you in your research from being in the slightest bit
caught up.
I'm really praying for you as you delve into all this stuff, Bob, that God will
protect you from being caught up in it.
I'll tell you the worst thing.
The worst thing that I ever had to research was NLP.
That is the most evil thing that I have ever seen.
John, I prayed continually.
I had to break away.
I had to take prayer walks.
It was the most evil thing that I have ever seen.
I just talked to Constance Cumby on the phone.
Her and I talk a lot, and she called me just this past week.
In fact, we're thinking about having Constance Cumby come down for an interview
on video here in just a couple of weeks.
But in her book, Hidden Secrets, Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow,
she talks about the way that New Age is coming to the Christian church.
And when I told her how that we were doing this research on Neuro-Linguistic
Programming, she says, Oh, Neuro-Linguistic, NLP, she says,
that is just evil.
She says, that is one of the most evil of all the New Age techniques that's coming
to the Seventh-day Adventist church.
So, you know, when you realize how evil, and I'm going to be interviewing Terry
Ross in just a few moments here at the end of my interview with you.
Terry Ross has found some startling things, new things about the evilness of
NLP.
And to realize that we are the church that is foremost, the Seventh-day Adventist
church is the foremost promoter of NLP of all the other church denominations.
Seventh-day Adventist promotes NLP more than any other church.
John Savage is, of the 40 churches he is working with, the first and foremost one
is Seventh-day Adventism.
And even non-Adventists are telling us that it is the most evil of all the New
Age techniques that has crept into the Christian church.
Listen to this from The Great Controversy.
None are in greater danger from the influence of evil spirits than those who,
notwithstanding the direct and ample testimony of the Scriptures, deny the
existence and agency of the devil and his angels.
So long as we are ignorant of their wiles, they have almost inconceivable advantage.
Many give heed to their suggestions while they suppose themselves to be following
the dictates of their own wisdom.
There is nothing that the great deceiver fears so much as that we shall become
acquainted with his devices.
So my purpose in studying this, of course, is to reveal Satan's devices.
Because without that, people are walking into it not knowing what it is.
We are going to ask God to continue to protect you as you do this research.
Now, you've brought us up to a time frame up to the late 80s.
Are we into the 90s yet?
Yes, we're right on the brink of the 90s now with the coming in of the spiritual
exercises.
And William, I wanted to say something else about William Johnston.
He's a Teilhardian Jesuit.
Now, the most influential figure in the New Age movement is Pierre Teilhard de
Chardin, a Jesuit.
He's a renegade Jesuit.
But he is the one who believes that when the consciousness of humanity is
completely united and all of humanity's consciousness level is heightened to a
certain point, then the Omega Christ will appear.
The Omega Christ?
The Omega Christ.
Yes, now this is very interesting that he, who is a Jesuit, has had great influence
among Roman Catholic theologians and the Jesuit order with his ideas about the
Omega Christ.
And he believes that this will be the real incarnation of the Christ.
So we're talking about Satan impersonating the Christ.
Exactly.
As the Omega Christ.
And that's only the beginning of it, John.
And, of course, we know about the Omega apostasy in the Seventh-day Advent Church,
a most startling nature.
John, this book here, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ by Matthew Fox, is
absolutely startling.
Now, this man is a Dominican scholar.
The Dominicans ran the Inquisition, incidentally.
Both of these men are renegades, I will say that.
But in this book, The Coming of the Cosmic Christ, he describes how there has to be
worldwide liturgical change in celebration.
Yes.
Celebration is a fundamental thing all the way through, but he gets deeply into
mysticism.
And he says we have to have deep mysticism in order to have deep ecumenism.
And I was reading along in here, and he got to the point where he was
telling about the primary example of deep mysticism taking place.
And he cites an experience that took place just recently in North Carolina,
a summer workshop on creation spirituality.
Now, the Cosmic Christ, incidentally, is a pantheistic Christ.
Pierre Killard de Chardin said that the Cosmic Christ is neither human nor divine.
He is cosmic.
Well, that's what we saw in The Coming of the Cosmic King in the ministry magazine
that we...
That painting parallels what you read in here.
And in this deepest example of deep mysticism, bringing about deep ecumenical
realignment, there were, at this creation spirituality workshop in North Carolina,
not only Roman Catholics and Quakers, Anglicans and Methodists, but Southern
Baptists and Seventh-day Adventists.
And it says right there in that book.
Yes, I was just reading it along.
You see, this is the thing that our leadership denies and lies to our people
and telling them we have nothing to do with this stuff.
And then we read about it.
But you see, our people are not reading this book.
These books, praise the Lord.
But also, praise the Lord for researchers such as yourself that the Lord takes you
to and shows you what is really going on in the Seventh-day Adventist Church so
that you can warn our people that we're being lied to.
You see, the Cosmic Christ being a Pantheistic Christ is identical.
It's the idea of divinity being in everything.
And it is identical to the Baal worship that was present in the days of Elijah,
where they believed that the Baals lived in the trees and the stones and this and
that.
And also, the Pantheistic element of it parallels precisely the Alpha of apostasy.
So we've come right down to the Omega of apostasy there.
And for the tie-in, John, between New Age and Roman Catholicism that goes beyond
even Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and Matthew Fox, the Dominican scholar,
I have this book here, Mary in Faith and Life in the New Age of the Church.
Mary in Faith and Life in the New Age.
Look at that term, New Age of the Church.
And did you know that over at Medjugorje in Europe, Mary, the apparition of Mary
that is appearing to the children, she is telling the children that Mary is
very upset with the world because they are not keeping Sunday.
Mary is upset because we're not keeping Sunday.
Does that tie in with this thing in Fatima?
Well, Fatima is a similar type of thing.
Fatima was more dealing with the conversion of Russia.
And here we have the Virgin Mary being promoted in our own, you know,
charm is deceptive and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be
praised, Proverbs 31.30.
They use this as a passage in this Andrews Theological Seminary and our Andrews
University casting yearbook with a picture of Mary to promote the Virgin Mary.
I mean, this is unbelievable.
Have you noticed, Bob, how suddenly on the whole world, not just on Catholics,
but on the whole world, on the Protestant world, everybody is talking about Mary?
I've noticed that just recently, that suddenly everybody is talking about
the Virgin Mary.
That's right.
So we have the spiritual exercises that have been brought in to basically
subjugate the people to the clergy in a hierarchical fashion like the Jesuit order
has.
And then by 1991, we have hundreds, you've released some lists of this,
John, hundreds of SDA pastors that have been trained in the most sophisticated
hypnotic techniques in existence to fasten the congregations in apostasy.
When you look historically at the principles used in NLP, it's very
significant to me that in the Cheka in Russia, the precursor of the modern KGB,
they used pacing.
Dzerzhinsky, who had been trained in seminary, he was a Polish Catholic.
He was used by Lenin to set up the counter-espionage service of the Cheka.
And he said, we give a man whatever he wants.
We teach them how to want to be deceived.
And this is so fundamental to NLP.
Our people want to be deceived.
Our Seventh-day Adventist people want to believe that the conference is the church
and that all you have to do is stay with the conference and blind loyalty to the
conference and you're going to stay with the ship and go to heaven.
Our people want to be deceived.
Our people want to believe that the conference is the church, that our
leadership is not corrupt, that we're not being led by Catholicism and
Pentecostalism and New Age techniques.
You know, they want to believe that the conference is the church and all they have
to do is trust the conference and they're going to heaven.
So, you know, that just fits right in to where we are as a people.
Our people want to be deceived.
Yes.
In fact, Ellen White says in Great Controversy that Satan has a deception for
anyone who's unwilling to lift the cross and go against the grain of the carnal
heart in their spiritual following of Christ.
So, this is an utter abomination, as you've pointed out, John, the NLP
businesses for binding the congregations into this very thing that Ellen White
warned against in Great Controversy.
We're seeing it happen before our very eyes.
And now we come to 1991 and we have John Paul II in the encyclical in May,
Centesimus Annus, calling for national Sunday laws around the world, for all the
nations to order their legal system to accommodate Sunday laws.
And President Bush is working, laboring to construct a new world order
based on international law through the United Nations.
We have communism collapsing in Russia.
The major deterrent to the military might of America has vaporized and now we are
even sending funds over for the demolition of their nuclear arms.
And America is emerging center stage as the dominant force in the United Nations
and we taught a lesson to the world in Kuwait.
You don't mess with the United Nations led by the United States or we'll bomb you
into the Stone Age.
And so the stage is all set, John.
It's being set in, we haven't even touched on it, in the courts, constitutionally,
in the law schools, the whole way is prepared for the final crisis being right
before us.
What's going on in Europe tie in with this?
Absolutely.
Give us a little, give us a little idea of how the organization of the European
states is developing Sunday laws.
I was amazed to find this out from David Moulton.
David Moulton told about it Saturday.
Bless his heart, the research that he is doing and how the unification of Europe,
the European states has already mandated a Sunday law and they are enforcing it.
And the people do not want it, the individual countries do not want it,
but the organization of European states says it must be and it is law.
John, I had an individual send me some clippings from European papers indicating
that some of the northern European nations in Scandinavia are very clear.
Some of the newspaper editorials and articles were very clear that the papacy
is behind this and they fear falling into this.
They see it, bless their heart.
Now Bob, we are in 1991, wrap us up here and tell us how we as historic Adventist
people can keep from being sucked into this whole thing.
Well John, you know the Bible says over and over again, unto him shall the
gathering of the people be.
We need to gather around Christ and Christ in his word and have a deep, deep
experience.
John, we've got to have an experience that is deeper and broader than Enoch's and
Elijah's because the subtlety of the deceptions we face is so much greater.
And the 144,000 will sing a song that no other group sings because they've gone
through an experience that no other church, no other group of people has gone
through.
And so we have to understand true Protestantism.
And thank God for the book Great Conversation, for the Bible.
We have to spend time, this has to be the chief pursuit of our life.
Knowing God, knowing the principles of true Protestantism, knowing the principles
of the word, being faithful in our own personal life and exhibiting and
experiencing in our own heart the righteousness of Christ received by faith.
Bob, you have made comment on several occasions today that you feel so bad
because you left this book and you left that book and you left all these books.
And you were going to talk about modern warfare and you said, oh, I left all those
books, how the techniques of modern warfare have just come right out of,
help me out here.
Well, Marx and Engels, from then on, they have seen that diplomatic warfare
comes first.
You seek to win your enemy over through diplomacy.
And Rome used that with Martin Luther.
They tried to do that.
Ideological warfare, propaganda warfare, economic warfare, and only used military
force as a last resort.
So what many of our people are, I think, of the mindset of is that
suddenly this National Sunday Law will appear and there will be teeth in it.
But Ellen White says the first one will be just a touch.
But they think there will be this National Sunday Law with teeth in it and then
they'll suddenly wake up and they'll realize that they're in the last days.
But what they don't realize is we're in the heavy onslaught of the conditioning
process of Rome.
Conditioning process.
We are being conditioned for the Sunday Blue Laws.
Be not shaped into the mold of this world.
But be ye transformed.
Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of
your mind in Christ Jesus.
If we're not continually every day and every hour being transformed by the
renewing power of Christ, we will inevitably be conditioned and be swept
right into the mark of the beast.
Well, Bob, I appreciate so much this information that you have brought us.
And what a debt of gratitude our Adventist people have to you for enlightening us to
what is really taking place in our beloved Seventh-day Adventist church in this
wonderful message that we have.
I still have an interview of Terry Ross I've got to take.
He's found out some startling information about NLP and an update from him on what's
going on in the Shady Point Church there in Oregon.
But before we leave, I look over to that table and I see all those books that we
haven't even touched on.
We may have to have you back again here at Prophecy Countdown.
It's been most enjoyable.
It has been for me, John.
And it was such a blessing.
The Rolling Hills church members on Sabbath said how much they appreciated
your sermon and talk on Sabbath afternoon and the question and answer period that we
had.
Before we get out of this interview, I just want to ask you to lead us in
prayer and to pray for God's people in these trying hours of earth's history.
Kneel with me, Bob, and lead us in prayer.
Gracious Father in heaven, it's been wonderful to fellowship together today.
And Lord, our great prayer, our great cry to Thee from our heart is for a mighty
revival of primitive godliness.
Lord, the Holy Spirit is moving across the face of the earth, looking for hearts that
will be open to His leading.
May our hearts be open.
May the mighty power of Christ take control, transforming all of life.
Help us to have your worldview that is given in the book of Revelation and Daniel
and the great controversy.
Help us to be faithful, to spend time with Thee in our prayer lives, to study
diligently, and to walk in the light.
Give us great courage.
Give us faith.
Help us to learn how to use the armory of heaven, the sword of the Spirit,
the shield of faith, the breastplate of righteousness, the helmet of salvation,
feet shod with the gospel of peace and girt about with truth.
Give us the knowledge, the understanding, the ability, and the willpower,
and Thy righteousness, Thy love, Thy Spirit in these closing hours that we
will be sealed with the seal of the living God, that we will be faithful even unto
death, and that we will receive a crown of life from Thy hand.
And sing that song in heaven, and dwell with Thee throughout the ceaseless ages of
eternity.
Bless John here in his ministry, and bless each one of Thy faithful ones
around the world.
Bless our church, we pray, and help us each one to be ready for the issues,
to be ready for Thy soon coming, is our prayer in Jesus' name.
Amen.
Bless your heart, Bob, my brother in Christ.
God be with you.
Come back to see us here at Prophecy Countdown.
It's been wonderful to be here.
Thank you.
Terry Ross, what a privilege it has been to have you and Kathy here at Prophecy
Countdown.
How long have you been here now?
Two months.
Two months!
It's gone great.
I got so tickled with the letter we just got from a little friend of yours.
Right.
We read it in Church Sabbath, and his big question was, how are you and John getting
along?
I think a lot of people have been worried about that.
Yeah, they think it's like putting nitro and glycerin together, you know,
putting Terry Ross and John Osborne together.
Well, if it's controlled, it's powerful.
There's nothing wrong with it.
It has been such a thrill to have you all here.
What a godsend you have been to this ministry.
And I appreciate the research that you've done, and that's what I want to talk to
you about right now.
You have found something in Mother Jones Magazine.
I'll have to admit to you, I've never ever heard of that magazine.
But you've found a most astounding article, and I want you to share it with
our Prophecy Countdown supporters right now.
I'll be glad to.
Earlier I think you mentioned Constance Cumby.
Yes.
She's a famous attorney and also an author, as you have pointed out.
And she sent us a fax a few days ago, and on that fax was an article from a
little known, I suspect, magazine called Mother Jones.
I didn't know about it either, but Mother Jones Magazine is a politically
active magazine, and speaks out on many, many issues.
And inside the issue of February-March 1989, and I know we'll show this to the
people, there's an article in there that I would like to share with our people that I
think holds just powerful weight to the things that we've been trying to expose in
the NLP area.
Show us.
Now, I'm purposely not going to say who this is, but we'll just tell the story and
pick up on who it is later, okay?
You mean who the story is about.
Is about, that's right.
We have to go back to New Jersey of 1950, and this man that we're talking about was
born in New Jersey.
In his school days, by the time he got into high school, he'd moved out to
Sunnyvale, California, and that's my old stomping ground, John.
I was born in San Jose and raised in Sacramento, and actually worked in
Sunnyvale for a time.
That's known now to most people as the Silicon Valley.
This young man had a real restless childhood.
He didn't make friends easily, and he had a language deficiency that
didn't make things very easy on him at all.
He was not exactly an outcast, but he was a loner for sure.
Just didn't have many friends.
One of his aspirations in life was he dreamed that one day he would be able to
play the drums like Buddy Rich.
And he practiced, except that his aspirations seemed to be more than his
actual talent, and he never did achieve that type of stardom.
But he did learn the drums well enough that he was asked by a man to teach his
son how to play the drums.
And this man would later mold his life.
The man's name was Robert Spitzer, who was a psychiatrist at the time,
and quickly became a father figure to this young man who had very few friends in
life.
And he willingly lit this young man all of his books on psychology.
This seemed to be his niche in life.
He started devouring his books.
He really took to it like a fish to water, as the saying goes.
Now, Terry, do I need to remind our people that even though they don't know who this
individual is, to pay close attention to the history of this man.
Because when they get to the end of this story and find out who this man is,
it's going to blow them away.
I'm glad you brought that up too, John.
Because one thing I need to stress is folks will definitely want to get the
documentation pack up.
Because we will include in its entirety this story out of the magazine in its
completeness, along with pictures.
So anyway, Spitzer, the psychiatrist who had kind of taken this young man in,
also introduced him to a pioneer family therapist by the name of Virginia Satcher.
And we'll get back to her just a little bit later.
And we'll show you how she ties into all this NLP stuff.
Her messages of self-love and acceptance just seemed to really hit his heart,
something he really needed.
And they became quick friends as well.
And she kind of took him under her wing in sort of a maternal way.
After the young man graduated from high school in 1968, he enrolled in a nearby
junior college and took philosophy.
He was very interested in that.
And the thing, this is where he started to blossom.
Because in the environment of philosophy, he was able to freely speak his mind and
he really enjoyed this.
For the first time in his life, he wasn't afraid to just speak right out
because this was the atmosphere that the environment had created.
He had moved by now, in the middle of this course, to the hills of Santa Cruz,
California, which is another place I used to go all the time.
There at the boardwalk and surfing and so forth.
So I'm very much familiar with the kind of mindset that people have there.
It's pretty open.
The grassroots of a lot of the drug, kind of like Haight-Ashbury.
That's what Santa Cruz also imbibed in that era.
The people that knew this young man well still felt that he was not comfortable in
the world.
That's how they put him.
That he was just kind of a loner.
Even though he would speak his mind in certain environments, he wouldn't attach
himself to people.
Didn't fit in.
No, he just didn't quite fit in.
He did have some talent, though, in the area of communication.
And found out right away that he had a profound impact by what he was learning.
Not only the community, but the therapists that were beginning to understand what he
was getting into.
And they felt that what he was doing would have a lot of beneficial...
Well, just a lot of benefits to their way of thinking.
Now, one thing that he did have, which was very uncanny, was that he could
mimic people with an uncanny accuracy.
He could just watch what they did.
He could match their voice tones.
Impersonate?
Kind of like Rich Little or some of these impressionists, that they can copy the
person.
Their syntax, their tone of voice, their mannerisms to where you almost swear
that that's the person themselves.
Absolutely.
Their voice structure, their mannerisms.
It was similar to, like you might see, a young man who has not too much in life,
but all of a sudden he's a prodigy of music.
So he had a real talent in this area of being able to mimic people.
It just flowed out of him.
Natural.
In 1970, this man decided that psychology had become such a great love to him that
he enrolled at the University of California at Santa Cruz.
And although he wasn't interested in self-discovery, as most psychology kind of
teaches, he liked to use his knowledge that he had that came from Virginia Sater
and also Fritz Perls to lead the guest talk groups, which were groups that would
get in circles and discover their own needs, look to the inner self,
and try to look for answers inside their own minds.
Now who are these people you just mentioned?
You just mentioned their names.
Who are these people?
Virginia Sater was a leading family therapist at the time.
What are the years?
This was in 1970s.
And then Fritz Perls was one of the people that founded the guest talk groups,
which was...
Group therapy.
...and was becoming very prevalent around 1970s.
Yes, I do remember that.
Now this is also where he met, at the University of Santa Cruz,
a professor that took a very liking to the young man, because there was a chemistry
there that was kind of unique.
And the professor's name was Richard, excuse me, John Grinder was his name.
And I'm sure that probably people know at least John Grinder has a lot to do with
NLP.
Of course.
Those who had kind of taken this kind of mindset with the professor, and John
Grinder, and Virginia Sater, and Fritz Perls, and these type of people in the
immediate area, all kind of gravitated to this...
Well, actually it was a property that used to be a nudist colony.
And then the Robert Spitzer took it and turned it into a commune for these
intellects, where they could come and stay and just do this mind blazing trails,
just get their heads together and try to sort these things out and perfect their
techniques and so forth.
Techniques of what?
How to...
How to get in...
How people's mind works.
Ah, okay.
How they work.
And they really got into this for a few years.
Those at the commune that remembered this man that we're talking about, they
remembered him as a very intense person and very temperamental.
He had a hot temper and he would at certain times really explode.
And matter of fact, it wasn't too long after he moved to the commune that the
people on it asked Spitzer, the owner, to have him removed.
Because he was such a violent person?
Because he was a violent person.
But Spitzer refused because he knew his background.
So Spitzer was the one that was in charge of this commune that had been a former
nudist colony.
He owned it.
He was now getting these people together to figure out how the mind worked.
Absolutely.
He owned it.
Also, it was at this time that the young man that we're talking about started to
brag about his heavy use of cocaine.
So he was a heavy coke user?
Yes, he was.
Very heavy coke user.
And a drinker as well.
Now, while at the commune, Professor Grinder and this man started an intensive
study hoping to understand the techniques of linguistics.
And how...
Both...
What are linguistics, Terry?
Well, linguistics are...
Has to do with language.
The professional use of language.
Yes.
Right.
Very technical type dissection of how voice tones are used.
And also, not only just linguistics, but the non-verbal use of body posture.
And they got their heads together and this was their...
This was their child, their brain child.
And they focused completely on this.
They also, at this time, met... These two men met...
The renowned psychiatrist...
Psychiatrist, hypnosis, Milton Erickson.
And they began to study with him as well.
Milton Erickson, we talked about that on our first NLP video.
Bill Loveless talked about him, didn't he?
Yes.
So, here you have the professor of psychology.
You have John Grinder, one of the co-founders of NLP.
You have this other young man that we're talking about.
And you have Milton Erickson, they're all together, getting their heads together,
trying to work out.
You have the professor of linguistics, non-verbal communication with body
posture.
And the top dog of hypnosis.
All coming together, trying to work these techniques out in order to become what we
would call...
Magicians of the therapy in the mind field.
That's what they were doing.
And I have to say, it is a mind field, John.
Hey, man, I...
I get it.
M-I-N-E?
Yes.
This quickly generated...
As they were perfecting their techniques...
Quickly generated into an enormous amount of interest in their own community,
professional community.
And this would be the community of humanistic psychology.
And they took what was now known as neuro-linguistic programming on the road.
They decided that they were ready to take it on the road.
Start bringing people together and charging enormous sums of money.
Matter of fact, at this time, the young man was starting to charge upwards to
$4,000 a day.
So he's making big money now with it.
Big bucks.
He started accumulating properties both here in the United States...
And I guess Hawaii is also part of the United States, but I think of it as an
island.
And on the islands over there...
By giving these seminars in... what?
Mind control?
Mind control, NLP, right?
Mind control.
What the audiences...
What actually brought them to this young fellow was that he was very stimulating.
They saw them as being irreverent, very funny.
They were very outspoken in their criticism toward the traditional therapy.
During this time, is he still taking cocaine?
Is he a heavy coke user during all this?
We're going to get into that.
Of course, the people didn't know that.
But yes, very much so.
He was heavily into... a heavy drug user into cocaine.
Absolutely.
Being his drug of preference.
Absolutely.
Another thing that they absolutely delighted in doing was confusing their
audiences.
And they would tell their people out and out that what we're about to tell you is a
pack of lies.
They would just tell them.
They just absolutely loved to just shock their audiences.
And taunt them with the fact that they were being manipulated and lied to.
Absolutely.
And what is kind of... well, for a better word, maybe twisted or warped about the
human mind is the carnal nature.
And I have to say, I'm the same way if I don't keep my eyes on Jesus.
Our minds are so twisted, we kind of gravitate to that stuff.
I mean, you know, if we think it's weird and strange, it's weirder and stranger,
the more we want to go see it.
You know, and so these people just started pouring in.
Although they weren't therapists, actually, didn't have any PhDs in the area
at all.
They started treating clients and calling themselves doctors.
And in their periodicals and books that they wrote, called themselves doctors all
the time.
And when there was a question about that, they would just slough that off on their
audiences and say, Well, those people called us doctors, and so we just go along
with the flow.
The man that we're talking about quickly developed quite a reputation for being
able to read people very quickly.
He could see how you were, hear your voice structure, your tones, your body
movements.
And very quickly, he could get right into your head.
And the people were absolutely fascinated by his talent.
He was the type of person and had the type of personality that could put a person at
ease almost immediately or scare you to death.
He could do anything he wanted to with you.
It was like, you'd be like a yo-yo on a string.
He could wind you around, throw you in the air, toss you off the walls.
He had the ability to control people against their will.
Absolute.
He dazzled his audiences with his agile mind, his quick wit, his skill as a...
A hypnosis and a healer.
And I thought that was very...
Very significant.
Because we've said on the videos in the past that we'll be seeing healing in the
church.
Yes.
And we said that before we knew about NLP.
And now we're saying it even harder.
Yes.
And I praise the Lord that he's vindicating his name...
...in all of this.
As the story goes, anyway, the therapist, after they were taking a closer look at
the NLP techniques, they were all very much interested in handling this material.
Incorporating it into the professional community of what they did.
And now very much so across the United States.
And actually these folks are traveling around the world now.
It has been...
And we've showed some of this in Loma Linda.
It's being used in the medical society because it works.
Like the New Age philosophy that he'd learned, he incorporated everything that
he taught by using the therapy of constructed and reconstructed his own
past.
He would use NLP in his own past so many times to hide his own past that he
himself, I believe, became confused about who he really was.
And what he would do is he would tell stories.
And the stories would go back into his past.
He'd tell stories such as that he used to be a rock star.
And he never was.
But he would tell it just like he was.
Couldn't even play the drums.
No, he tried.
But he could.
He would also tell stories that he owned a topless bar at age 16 and became a
millionaire at age 18.
And none of that was true.
This is what he was telling his audiences?
Oh, yes.
He was telling them as a professional that that's his background, see, to get the
power on his side.
He reconstructed stories so often, John, he would go back into his own mind
and do what they call reframing.
Reframe his own background.
He'd become anybody he wanted to become.
Another thing that's very important to know about this young man is that the
power of NLP gives a person the ability to take the guilt of something that you might
have done in your past and slough it off by reframing your past so that you really
didn't do that.
Understand what I'm saying?
And this is what he did quite often.
And in his own mind.
That's what reframing is all about, isn't it?
That's exactly what it's all about.
He also told stories that he had a black belt in karate and having discussed pain
control for the CIA and the army.
What control?
Pain control.
Oh, pain control.
Pain control.
He told his audiences that he went to the CIA and discussed pain control with them
and also the army and purportedly to prove his power.
They had taken an agent out of the CIA and put an ice pit clear through the guy's
hand to prove that NLP really worked.
And he never flinched?
No, never flinched.
It was on Saturday morning, February 1984, when suddenly, almost magically,
he produced a pistol.
While on stage in front of an audience, right between the eyes of a psychiatrist
who had volunteered to come up.
He took out this revolver and just pointed it right at the guy.
And the point that he was trying to make was that anyone can change if he has the
right stimulus.
And the volunteer had said, the psychiatrist had disagreed with him,
say.
And here's the quote out of the magazine.
This is the man talking now that's giving the NLP.
He says, remember, he's got this gun pointed at this psychiatrist, real live
gun.
I've got news for you, he taunted, you've got no idea how nuts I am.
How many people have one, talking about the gun, in their pocket, waiting for you?
And you're going to tell me that I won't do it?
He laughed.
I don't have to kill you, I just have to wound you, he added.
I've done weirder things to my clients.
You didn't know that this was going to be real, did you?
Now, can you imagine sitting there, this guy's got a loaded weapon in his
hand.
Pointing it right between your eyes and being just dead serious with you.
And he's already got this reputation of being weird and a reputation of violence.
Well, of course, the psychiatrist was visibly shaken.
And he said, yes, the change is possible.
Of course, he succumbed, he surrendered.
And this is when the other man said, absolutely.
Otherwise, I would have shot you by now.
You see, so he demonstrated, and the audience laughed.
You see, big joke.
And, of course, then he went on to tell the audience, and analyze the dynamics of
the psychiatrist's terror.
You see, it was all just a big gimmick.
Of course, the psychiatrist didn't know that.
He also told a story about how he had gotten a woman, who was afraid of heights,
to sing.
He got into her mind and analyzed that she was afraid of heights because of some
reason.
So, he got her to sing the Star-Spangled Banner, while walking over to the edge of
a, I don't know how many stories it was, but a large building to take away her
fear.
Then one time, he also says that he had a schizophrenic in his office.
And the schizophrenic thought he was Jesus Christ.
This is the story in the article.
And how he cured him was that this man built a cross, and told this man in all
seriousness that he was going to crucify him.
And, of course, the man, you know, was jarred out of that.
So, you can see this man will go to any extreme.
We are talking extremely kinky, weird guy.
Absolutely.
Totally controlled by the devil.
On cocaine, drug user, do anything, violent.
Okay, carry on.
Absolutely.
Well, by 1986, coming closer to home now, this man was divided.
He was at war with his own soul.
Like I said, he had gone so many times in the past, told so many lies.
You know, and then justified his lies.
They didn't even know who he was.
He was living in a home built by his close friend.
He finally got a close friend by the name of James Marino.
He bought this home from his close friend.
And he built this thing up like a fortress.
I mean, it had eight foot high fences around it.
Had a trained German shepherd.
Had solid core doors on every room in the house with dead bolts.
Now, by this time, he is making some heavy coin.
This guy is making big money.
Absolutely.
Going around teaching these seminars, people had to get into other people's mind
or what we know as NLP.
Yes.
He's got a small arsenal, several weapons, a semi-automatic weapon, knives in the
house.
He makes even his friends or his acquaintances or people that he knows that
come over every time.
They have to take a voice analysis before he'll let them come into the house.
I mean, this guy is super paranoid.
Even though married at this time, he has a mistress that his wife knows
about.
And he tells her that she must be tolerated or there'll be problems.
And so, I mean, this guy is just into everything.
Still using cocaine very heavily.
Now, his close friend who he bought the house from, James Marino, had a
girlfriend.
Her name is Corrine Christensen.
Corrine Christensen was a prostitute who ran a call girl service, exclusive call
girl service.
And even though she was 22 years younger than James Marino, he had such a
personality that I guess she really fell in love with the guy.
Was he using any of these techniques on her?
Oh, absolutely.
Because, you see, one of the reasons he had become the friend of the man that the
story is about is because he liked the power that the man wielded.
And he wanted some of it.
James Marino had said that he had ties with the mafia.
He was a cocaine dealer.
So, you see the marriage that was being made there.
This guy wanted power of mind control.
The guy that we're talking about wanted cocaine.
So, we have a real satanic, twisted marriage going on here between these two
fellows.
After, in the same year, at the end of the same year, 1986, Marino falls out of
relationship with this gal and picks up another girlfriend.
And is talking about moving to Florida, actually.
And moving his cocaine business out to the states.
So, he's selling cocaine.
Oh, yes.
He's a dealer.
But, Corrine had something else in mind.
She was still in love with the guy and she didn't want him to leave.
And she persuaded him to take her to a Halloween party, which was on October...
Let's see if I can get the date here.
October 25th, 1986.
And, which he did get talked into that.
Now, not long after they went to this party, for no apparent reason,
this big burly guy comes up to James Marino and just knocks his teeth out.
Just absolutely attacks him.
Knocks his teeth out.
Puts a laceration under his right eye.
And just, you know, halfway beats his brains out.
Just knocks him silly.
Corrine Christensen gathers him up, calls a taxi cab.
Rushes him off to the emergency room.
Gets him revived and then takes him to her apartment and nurses him for the next
three days.
Well, I guess the assault really had an effect on him.
And he must have had a pretty bad concussion because he had real bouts of...
During this time he had real bouts of tremendous headaches and dizziness.
During this three day period at Corrine's house, with these headaches and bouts of
dizziness, he conjured up in his mind that she was the one that had planned to get
him beat up.
And he became madder and madder and madder.
This James Marino began to imagine that it was his... this prostitute...
This ex-girlfriend, who is a prostitute, is the one that had conspired to have this
big guy, was it at a bar?
No, it was at a party.
At a party to beat him up.
And he began to, in his mind, imagine that she was the one that had done this.
Right.
That never was proven.
Did he have anything to go on, or just what he cooked up in his mind?
Just what he cooked up in his mind.
And so, while she was gone one day, he left her apartment and went to the
other girl that he was in love with now.
And stayed with her for a few days.
His present girlfriend.
A few days later, on Saturday, November the 1st, 1986, Marino finds
himself in a restaurant.
And all of a sudden he has this big, big bout of dizziness.
I mean, it's really, really on him.
So he calls his friend, the man that we're talking about in the story here.
The man that this whole story is about.
Now, he didn't know anything about what happened to James Marino.
Because this had only been about a week, and they hadn't seen each other.
So he comes to the restaurant, meeting James Marino, not knowing anything
had gone on.
That's the previous fight.
The previous fight.
He walks in and looks at his friend.
And later on, he would say his only friend.
What happened to you?
And man, I mean, it just hits him between the eyes.
What had happened to you?
His teeth are knocked out.
His teeth are knocked out, his back is blue, he's like, you know, just sick and
really bad.
He's half dead, okay.
So even though James Marino's voice was slurred and everything, he got out the
story about what happened, and he put it on Corrine Christensen.
Saying my ex-girlfriend was trying to get revenge for me breaking up with her,
and she had this big guy beating me up.
And he had no proof to say that, he just assumed that she was the one that
was behind all this.
Absolutely.
So this man that we're telling the story about, he gets super angry.
He goes to the nearest phone, and he calls Corrine Christensen.
And he tells her, he says, I have a simple question to ask you.
Who hurt my friend?
Why is my friend hurt?
Well, for whatever reason, she started evading the questions.
You know, he's got this long track of violence, she's probably getting scared,
I don't know.
But, she starts evading his questions, and he says, okay, I've got two more
questions to tell you, to ask you, until I blow your head off.
That was what he told her.
That was the last thing he told her on the phone.
He goes back, gathers up Marino, and they end up at her apartment.
Goes to her apartment.
Now, this is where the testimony, the story, gets a little fuzzy,
John.
Because what happens is, this thing comes to trial.
There's a reason it comes to trial, and we'll tell that in a minute.
But, right now, we're going to give the testimony about what Marino says.
Marino says that he and this man went to Corrine's house.
When they got there, this man whips out a gun, a .357 Magnum.
And holds it to the head of Corrine.
And starts yelling all kinds of obscenities.
And it was so bad that Marino thought he was going to be killed as well.
He was scared, and he started looking for a way to get out.
But it was a second apartment, a second story apartment.
Everything was buttoned down tight, and he couldn't get out of the place.
And so, he came back to the living room.
Shortly after he came back to the living room, the gun goes off.
And Corrine gets her brains blowed out.
And she's down on the floor, blood all over the place.
They leave, and the man...
Okay, this is really gory, but it has great significance that our people
understand this and the history of this man.
And you'll tell them at the end why.
I'm going to tell them.
I can't stress enough that they've got to get this story in the information packet.
It is crucial to the evidence that we've been uncovering.
Nonetheless, Marino says that he and this man, the man took them to nearby Monterey.
Now, Monterey is about 35 miles or so from Santa Cruz.
They went to Monterey, and the man made Marino take the .357 Magum and throw it
off a pier.
Now, later on, the police do collaborate some of his story.
They find the gun, they send divers down, they do find the gun.
And there was a few other things that Marino had said that they were able to
substantiate.
There was a couple of things in his story, though, that was real hazy.
And I'm not going to give all of those details because the people can read about
it.
And there's no sense in me telling all of it.
Then, the other man that we've been talking about, they put him on the witness
stand.
Now, you know, John, that either through watching TV or a friend in court or
whatever, that every time you go to court, the first thing they do is you have to
raise your right hand, take the oath, and then they say, state your name.
So, the other guy gets on and, of course, they ask him to state his name.
You know what his name was, John?
His name was Richard Bandler.
The founder of NLP.
Richard Bandler.
The man that we've been uncovering all this time.
You know, we said there were two founders, John Grinder and Richard Bandler.
He's on all the books.
He's on the first book, Frogs to Princesses, Transformation.
This is the history of this man.
This is the history, the life story of the father and founder of Neuro Linguistic
Programming.
God help us.
Now, he gets on the stand and tells a little bit different story.
I'm not going to tell you how the trial ends up.
You have to read it for yourself.
But, Terry, it's all printed and will be in the documentation packet.
Show me some pictures out of this now.
Let's see some pictures of Bandler.
Well, let me see.
I'll show you a couple of pictures.
Read some quotes out of this.
How many pages is this story?
It's about six or seven pages.
What's the name of the article?
The Bandler Method.
Right.
Here's a copy.
This is the one that they drew up.
Maybe I can show it here.
Might be a little better on camera.
Richard Bandler.
Notice he's got a brain in one hand and a gun in the other.
And the blood splattered all over him.
And then New Age Therapist.
I mean, they even come out and say that Neuro Linguistic Programming is New Age.
I mean, that's just common knowledge.
New Age Therapist Richard Bandler believed that anyone could change with the right
stimulus, even if that stimulus might be a gun.
You have to remember that this magazine is not a New Age magazine.
It doesn't purport to be New Age.
Here is an actual picture of the father of Neuro Linguistic Programming that over
2,000 Seventh-day Adventist ministers have been trained in.
And hundreds have become instructors and trained other Seventh-day Adventist
ministers, church members, church elders.
By 1982, Richard Bandler was falling apart, drinking heavily and inhaling large
amounts of cocaine.
Still, he kept teaching NLP.
We'll have to show the picture.
It's impressive, isn't it?
Oh, Terry, look at another quote from this article.
Brains were his toys, Bandler liked to say.
He compared humans to cars and computers and spoke of programming them.
They loved to confuse audiences, flout convention.
Everything we're going to tell you here is a lie, they said.
Here, he's coming out of the courthouse alone.
Oh, he's still teaching NLP.
We're going to reprint this whole article and put it in the documentation packet.
Our people have to see this word for word.
It's the father and founder of neuro-linguistic programming that is being
promoted more by the Seventh-day Adventist church than any other church on the face
of the earth.
And this is the founder and father of it.
Right there, folks.
I mean, this man is on the level of Charles Manson.
And here we have this man, this founder and father of neuro-linguistic programming
and do you really believe that our leadership will continue telling our
people that somehow this is of God and that this founder and father of NLP,
Richard Bandler, John Grinder, that this somehow can be taken out of this
satanic foundation and make something holy out of it?
You know what scares me, John?
What scares me is that we get these ideas that when a person is being possessed by
the devil, he's got to be something like a poltergeist or out of the exorcist or
something, something really ugly and strange.
Not necessarily.
The devil comes in and possesses people and makes them look real intellectual.
He himself is an intellectual, only second to the Godhead.
And this is what he's doing.
He's giving these people that have these strange backgrounds, these backgrounds of
promiscuity, these backgrounds of heavy drug use, these backgrounds of violence,
these backgrounds of mayhem and these sort of things.
He's giving them intellectual knowledge and then using them in a professional
society to gain control of the minds, not only of the people out there that
don't care anything about God, but of our people inside our very church.
We've just had an extensive interview with Bob Trans.
He's traced all this, shown how all this ties in together with the conspiracy of
the Roman Catholic Church to bring all Protestant churches back to the Mother
Church, foremost the Seventh-day Adventist Church, how that these new-age techniques
of NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, now you have shown our Adventist people,
the founder and father of Neuro-Linguistic Programming, where it all comes from.
This is absolutely mind-boggling.
We've given our people so much information.
I appreciate the research that you have done in bringing this to us, Terry.
I don't know if you have anything in closing in dealing with this NLP,
but I want you now to go into what is the update on what is going on in your old
church at Shady Point, Oregon.
Give us a quick tightening this...
Recap it.
That's the word I want.
To cap this story of Richard Bandler, the founder of NLP, and then get into the
situation at Shady Point.
Well, you know, we brought this book up on one of the other videos, Becoming a Master
Student.
Oh, yes.
And we're going to show some footage of a couple of things that will help tie this
all together.
But in the back...
We had a friend that said, Do you need to look at the back of the book?
Look at the back of the book in the bibliography.
Now, what's the bibliography?
Give the definition for bibliography.
Well, the bibliography, according to the dictionary in layman's terms, means
anything that you would use from different authors to use as resource material.
Yes.
Okay?
And so in the back of the Becoming a Master Student book, you have the
bibliography that names the different authors and books that they used.
Now, let's just make it real clear here.
These books that are given under the bibliography in the back of Becoming a
Master Student, which is taught at many of our colleges, and we have even found more
colleges than what was listed on our original that are teaching from Becoming a
Master Student, that this is the source material that was used to put together on
Becoming a Master Student.
Read it.
Well, I've just got to tell you that the very second person listed is Richard
Bandler.
And John Grinder, who teaches Neurolinguistic Programming.
So, this man right here, this sicko on the level with Charles Manson, that was the
father and founder of Neurolinguistic Programming, was part of the source
material that made up on Becoming a Master Student.
Yes, and remember Virginia Sontag that I told you about, that took him under his
arm and taught him some things?
She's also one of the source material right here.
She's also the source material.
Okay.
And we're going to show some footage on this that we have.
But Kathy and I, you know that we're from Oregon, not anymore, but you're from
Florida now.
And glad to be.
But we were in Oregon at the time.
And in Oregon, there was a guru that came.
And his name was the Bhagwan Rajneesh.
Oh, everybody saw him and all his Rolls Royces.
Yes, he had a hundred Rolls Royces.
Yes, he did.
Well, guess what?
He's also used as one of the sources.
And he's right here.
And we're going to show the people some footage about what kind of mind control
he's in.
And I'm telling you, it is sick.
Okay, you've got some video showing the commune, Bhagwan Rajneesh, and he is part
of the source material that on Becoming a Master Student.
So let's now view the home, Bhagwan Rajneesh, for Becoming a Master Student.
Rajneesh is one of India's most controversial gurus, largely because of
his endorsement of shocking sexual practices as a prerequisite for salvation.
His brand of yoga, called dynamic meditation, is a new age combination of
Hinduism and psychotherapies.
This exercise, involving rigorous breathing and hyperventilation,
is designed to arouse the serpent force, called kundalini, which the gurus believe
lies coiled at the base of the spine.
I did dynamic meditation every day.
We also called it kundalini meditation.
It starts off with a cathartic breathing, and the reason for it is just to move your
energy and to get you out of your head and into your body, and you just breathe.
The next phase, the screaming phase of dynamic meditation, feels like when you
finally had an opportunity to throw a tantrum when you were a little kid.
By the time you get to the third phase of jumping up and down and yelling hoo,
you're hardly there at all, and so it's pretty hard to remember what happens when
you're there.
I guess the closest thing I can associate it with is mindlessness.
You get to a place where your mind actually leaves your body.
Your body's just jumping up and down and your voice from your gut is yelling hoo,
and you're not doing it anymore.
The next phase, someone yells stop, and you've just been doing 30 minutes of
intense catharsis.
And what happens after being in such incredibly intense movement for so long is
just a feeling of peacefulness and stillness.
My mind actually stops, and I feel a oneness with the whole universe.
There have been glowing reports published giving credit to the gurus and their
pseudo-psychological techniques, including to mention the thousands of
cases of emotional and mental breakdowns, insanity, suicide, beatings, murder,
rapes, going on in guru centers, various guru centers worldwide.
It is alarming to realize these dangerous techniques for enlightenment are being
incorporated in psychotherapies, self-help seminars, and are even being
accepted in mainstream Protestant and Catholic churches and seminaries.
Well, that was very interesting.
I believe that our Adventist people are beginning to see things as they are.
And if they can't, I don't know what more we can do, Terry.
Well, like we've always said, video don't lie.
And if the people just saw what was on the video, you have to literally be out of
your mind to follow these guys.
Just like those people were.
That's right.
Unbelievable.
This is the source material.
Instead of the Bible and the spirit of prophecy, this is the source material we
are going to to train our students in our Seventh-day Adventist colleges.
God help us.
What have we become?
See, we're not just going to Babylon and drinking out of their wells.
No, this is worse than Babylon.
We're going to the sewers of the occult.
This is the sewer of the occult.
I like it.
That's exactly what it is.
Instead of going to Babylon and the broken cisterns, we've gone to the sewers of the
occult.
And we're just drinking freely.
What are you doing now in Shady Point?
Well, I called one of my friends out there a couple of weeks back.
And what has happened since we've left is, of course, they've stripped everybody that
refused, because of their conscience, refused to prove that they were paying
tithe to the local church, which would be Shady Point, and to the local conference.
If you cannot...
Now, you and Bob mentioned this earlier that you would have to show your checkbook
to prove that you're paying the money to the church.
That's one of the Catholic techniques.
Well, this is exactly what Phil Dunham told me and Kathy.
Exactly.
As a matter of fact, I questioned him about it.
I said, now, wait a minute.
You're telling me that you will not take a Christian man's word, whether he's a tithe
payer.
I have to show you a receipt to prove what I'm saying.
He said, that's right, or you cannot hold office in the church.
This is a Catholic technique.
Bob showed that it's right out of...
The Catholic history of the...
Methods that they use for control of the lady.
Now, in that celebration number seven, video number seven, we saw Elder Phil
Dunham had been sent down from the conference and it looked like that you all
routed him pretty good.
And left the next day.
Yeah, but now you say, since you have left, that they have come in and have
taken control and gotten out of office all the people who dared to stand against
them.
How did they do that, Terry?
Well, they just stripped them and would not allow them to get up front or anything
like that.
How did they allow that to happen?
Well, I'm not there, so I don't know.
I will say this though.
They went one step further.
And I just got to say, they tried to do this in another class that I was in once
before and I didn't let it happen.
So I can say in all Christian conscience, I wouldn't have let it happen without a
fight.
And yet I'm not there.
And I know the backgrounds of these people and they are doing the best they can under
the circumstances.
So I don't want to discourage them.
But although I've got to encourage our people
to stand for the truth that Jesus Christ has left us as Adventist people.
Our prophet told us that this time would come, Terry.
It's time for God's people to stand up.
You know, 3RH 275, look what she says.
If the cords are drawn much tighter, if the rules are made much finer,
if men continue to bind their fellow laborers closer and closer to the
commandments of men, many will be stirred by the Spirit of God to break every
shackle and assert their liberty in Christ Jesus.
That time is now.
It's time now for God's people to stand up and to assert their liberty in Christ
Jesus.
That reminds me of what Bob read earlier about Luther.
Call me anything you want, but I'm going forward if it's by myself.
Not because we're prideful, not because we think we're anybody, but because we know
who Jesus Christ is and we know the time in which we live.
So what's happening to the Shady Point Church?
I guess folks of all their church offices would not allow them to even think about
getting involved in a personal way anymore.
I guess the next thing they did was come right into their Sabbath school class.
Now they had already stripped the Sabbath school teacher of that class, of his
office.
And I guess the pastor and the doctor came in and just told this class that they
couldn't have a teacher anymore.
And they said, well that's okay, we'll just all teach each other.
And then they came back again and they just told them, no, you can't.
You are not allowed.
You're not going to be allowed to have a class anymore.
You are out of here.
You have to come back into the main sanctuary and get under the organized
classes.
We are not going to allow you to congregate back here and keep stirring up
amongst yourselves.
Now, I have to admit, that if I had been there, John, and I have done this once
before, I would have told that doctor, by the way, this is the same doctor that
faxed his vote in from Arizona to get me kicked out of that Jiu-Jitsu fellowship.
Faxed it in, yeah.
I thought that was kind of funny.
Anyway, I would have told this doctor that either sit down and learn something or go
back in the other room, because we weren't budging.
You know, I don't know, sometimes we shouldn't fight, but there are other times
when you just can't give the church away.
But I wasn't there.
What happened was, they decided to meet in a grange that is not too far away from the
church.
And actually, at this time, John, unless things have changed within the last
week, they have more people that are coming out of Shady Point Church.
They have more people coming out of the grange than they left in the church.
And so now the few people that are conference, they have what I call
conference cancer.
They are having to support.
Okay, support it then.
If you are going to do it and run it, run it.
And the other people, they are bringing in speakers and they are congregating there
at the grange and carrying on.
You know, I know that the Oregon Conference leadership is watching this
video.
Don Jenkinson has said that he watches all the videos that come out of this ministry.
And he says, I have already heard threats that they are going to try to remove my
membership without telling me.
That is the same thing that Bob said.
So we are aware of this.
I just want to tell the Oregon Conference leadership, you may think that you have
won the battle at Shady Point, but you have lost the war.
You know, all that you are doing is waking up the Adventist laity.
That is all.
You are waking up a sleeping giant.
I just watched Torah, Torah, Torah.
On the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
This week, December 7, 1991 is the 50th anniversary of the bombing of Pearl
Harbor.
And you know, Admiral Yamamoto said when the planes were coming back to the
carriers from Pearl Harbor, he turned to his assistant and said, I am afraid all
that we have done is awakened a sleeping giant.
And let me tell you, conference men, all you have done is awakened the sleeping
giant of the Adventist laity and you are going to lose the war.
I promise you.
The days of the Adventist laity standing up and asserting their liberty in Christ
Jesus and no longer allowing this conference tyranny of coming in and
controlling the laity, those days are over.
They may have won a battle at Shady Point, but they are going to lose the war.
You know, John, what excites me, and I must say, I have said it at least a
dozen times, the historic Adventist heart will break a thousand times between here
and the gate.
It is going to happen.
We are going to be disappointed.
Nobody likes to see what is going on.
My heart breaks to see our beloved church do what it is doing.
But on the other side of the coin, what excites me, John, is we are about
ready to see God work for His people.
And though we may be fewer in number, we are stronger on the battlefield.
Not because we are anybody, but because we know that we are not anybody and we know
somebody that is everybody.
God says that we will be amazed.
God's people will be amazed in the last days when God takes the reins into His
hands, the simple means that He uses to perfect His work in righteousness.
We are seeing that right now.
And God is going to use simple means by men and women from every walk of life.
The laity are going to finish this work.
We are going to have to be the ones to preach the three angels' message to the
world.
We are going to be the ones that God is going to raise up to finish this work.
Because if not us, who?
If not now, when?
When it's us, John.
Terry, thank you for the research you've done bringing us up to date.
I want you to lead us in prayer at the closing of this video.
Let's kneel.
Heavenly Father, once again we come to you admitting our weaknesses, knowing we are
but mere dust.
Lord, we so appreciate that we serve a loving God who watches and cares over the
least of His children.
And Lord, even though we are not worthy we know that Your Son is.
We ask that You would give us Your people the courage, the fortitude it takes at
this time to take a stand.
Help us not to deny our faith.
Help us not to be ashamed.
But help us to be, in the right sense, proud.
Help us to know what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist Christian,
the highest calling that any human being can receive.
Help us to be simplistic enough to follow Thee every step of the way.
Lord, we even pray for our enemies.
Somehow, if it can happen, we ask that You would turn things around at least in
individuals.
We know that there are good men in the camp.
We even know that there are souls in the camp that will eventually become Paul's.
But Lord, help us to see the times in which we live and help us to pick up that
blood-stained banner and march forward.
Bless Your people now, as we close this tape.
May they have the knowledge that You want them to have.
May we have the balance that we need.
May we have the discernment to walk through this minefield.
And may we keep our eyes on the bigger picture.
And one day soon, see Your Son, Jesus, come in the clouds of heaven,
for we pray these things in His precious name.
Amen.
Well, I just want to tell our viewers that they need to get this documentation
package.
Absolutely.
Bob Trebs has shown us for a $10 gift to this ministry or more, you need to have
this documentation packet.
You know, you've watched many of these videos.
I'm sure that they know our address.
But it's Prophecy Countdown, Box 1844.
Don't you like that box number?
I like that.
It kind of rings a bell.
Box 1844, Grand Island, Florida.
And the zip is 327...
Oh, no!
Thank you.
I keep getting Mount Dora mixed up with Grand Island.
32735.
And let us hear from you folks.
We really appreciate your words of encouragement and your letters and your
support for us.
Terry, thank you for being here.
My brother in Christ that I just love and appreciate so very much.
It's good working with you and we're going to keep our Adventist people updated with
what is going on.
Let me say this just right at the very end.
The little old Ryan that wrote the letter.
Yeah, Ryan, I never knew it could be so good.
Bless your heart.
Thank you, Terry.
Don't hit that rewind button yet.
There's a whole lot going on real fast, folks, that you need to know about.
We'll bring you up to date at the end of the credit roll in just a few moments,
so stay tuned.
We have some important new information that Bob Trebs needs to bring you up to
date on that we have to let you know.
Bob's on the phone.
I want him to tell you.
John?
Yes.
Bob Trebs is on line one.
Thank you.
Bob Trebs is on line one.
Hello, Bob, this is John Osborne.
Hi, John, how are you?
I'm just fine.
Appreciate so much your calling.
I tell you, I can't believe the stuff that has happened just in the short time since
we have videotaped together in the studio here.
Now, we taped this the first week of December.
It's now the first week in January.
The holidays kind of set us back.
But we're ready to take this edited master to the duplicators.
But just found out that you have got some new startling information.
How about bringing us up to date before we finish this tape?
Sure, John.
We have had a massive activity going on.
We published in October in Freedom's Ring the fact that a prominent SDA systematic
theologian representing the SDA church had signed, along with Roman Catholics and 100
theologians, the most significant ecumenical document the World Council of
Churches has ever produced, entitled The Baptism of Eucharist and Ministry.
And, of course, this is of great interest to Adventists because Ellen White says in
Great Controversy 444-445 that there is a growing sentiment in favor of a union
based upon common points of doctrine.
And then a little later she says when this shall be gained then in the effort to
secure complete uniformity it will be only a step to the resort to force.
That's exactly where we are.
If the United States uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in
common shall influence a state to enforce their decrees and sustain their
institutions then a Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman
hierarchy.
What page in Great Controversy is that?
That was 444-445.
And that's why this is so significant because the Baptism, Eucharist,
and Ministry document is the most significant document that the World
Council of Churches
has ever seen.
from the back of the Baptism, Eucharist, and Ministry document.
I sent down that document to you, John.
I'm holding it right here in my hand, Bob.
Okay, I think it's important to even look at what is on the back page there
including each of those little short paragraphs.
It says the statement published here marks a major advance in the ecumenical journey.
The result of a 50-year process of study and consultation.
It represents the theological convergence that has been achieved through decades of
dialogue under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
So they're acknowledging that this is the great development in ecumenical
convergence.
You've got to read the next paragraph.
Right, the next one.
Over 100 theologians met in Lima, Peru in January 1982.
And John, I have the report of the Commission on Faith and Order in Lima,
Peru right in my hands here.
The Visible Unity, the study papers and reports.
And I counted the number.
There were 105 theologians that were there gathered.
You've got that document in your hand?
Well, I have the report of the study papers and reports made at Lima,
Peru.
Where did you get all that?
Oh, from the World Council of Churches.
Bless your heart.
Anyway, reading on there, John, it says they recommended
that everyone submit this agreed statement.
That means everyone that was there.
The Lima text for the common study and official response to the churches.
Now I'm holding, you can't see me right now, John, but I'm holding in my hand the
Faith and Order 1985-1989 Commission meeting at Budapest 1989.
And in the back of that it lists the members on the Faith and Order Commission.
And Dr. Raul Dedran, Seventh-day Adventist Church, SDA Theological Seminary,
Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan, is listed there as one of the
members of that commission.
So he's been on that commission for years.
And they recommended unanimously to transmit this agreed statement for the
common study and official response to the churches.
They represented virtually all the major traditions.
All the major church traditions.
Now notice they include the Adventists among major church traditions.
Planted just as big as life, right here.
Right.
Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Lutheran,
Anglican, Reformed, Methodist, United, Disciples, Baptist, Adventist,
and Pentecostal.
But what about our leadership, Bob, that are denying this?
Well, that's what I want to get into.
Let me just read this last paragraph.
The church's response to this
ecumenical process of reception.
And we have responded to that document.
It's in Volume 2 of Churches Respond to BEM.
And the response is by the Council on Inter-Church Relations.
Well, what happened, John, that was so interesting was someone read our paper out
on the West Coast and wrote to a certain independent ministry.
And they had, even though we didn't name Dr. Deterren's name in the paper,
it was he.
And this independent ministry wrote directly to Dr. Deterren and asked him
about it because they had a letter from B .B.
Beach dated April 2 of 1982, which would be just a few months after January,
which stated that he abstained from voting on the document.
And yet the BEM document says it was unanimous.
Somebody's lying here, Bob.
So he wrote this letter to Dr. Deterren.
And
it was received December 5, 1991.
Dr. Deterren called and stated that he signed no papers nor the document itself.
So not only did Dr. Deterren also confirm that he abstained in the vote on the
document as did some others.
Well, that really perplexed us because the World Council of Churches has gone on
record in the back of this book stating that the Adventists were involved.
So we
got up a little after 1 in the morning and called the World Council of Churches in
Geneva, Switzerland and talked to the Faith and Order Department there and asked
them if they had a list.
And John, I faxed that telefax down to you.
It came in at 4 o'clock that morning from Switzerland from Dr. Gunther Gottesman's
office.
He's the Director of Faith and
Order.
He said, I'm happy to send you the list of participants in the 1982 Lima Faith and
Order meeting who have unanimously adopted the BEM document.
Gudrun Smith, the secretary, signed it.
And as we were watching the fax, we noticed the names coming out and there
as big as life in the first column was Dr. Deterren's name, Dr. R.
Deterren.
In
that moment, he had checked the minutes and it was unanimous.
In that phone call where I talked directly to Dr. Gunther Gottesman, the Director of
the World Council of Churches, who would be one of the more powerful men
in the World Council of Churches, he told me the vote was unanimous.
Every person in the room voted in favor of it.
There were
favor of it.
Bob has contested the fact that the vote was unanimous.
And it's been in print now for years on the back of the BEM document.
Any church that did not want to appear as having been involved unanimously with this
vote would surely have contested that fact some time ago.
But Bob, here is this document from the World
Council of Churches.
Bob, are we being lied to?
Have we been lied to?
What is going on, Bob?
Let's just come right out and spell it out.
People need to know.
Well, all right.
I pressed the matter then with Dr. Gottesman.
And I even brought up Dr. Dutton's name because I wanted to get to the bottom of
this thing.
He admitted that we have a person seated in a personal capacity on this commission.
But the inference that I always got from that was that everyone else was there in
an official capacity.
But now I find out that all of them serve in a personal capacity.
The voting, he said, is not a juridical, legally binding matter for the churches
that the members represent.
And an affirmative vote means that the document is accepted in principle or
agreed with in principle, not necessarily in all its details.
Okay, let me see if I understand this, Bob.
We have been told by the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church for years now
that we are functioning in the World Council of Churches but in a personal,
unofficial...
is that the terms?
Well, that's the implication that a person would get.
A personal...
A personal role on the...
A personal role.
But that's exactly the same as everybody else about the But that's what everybody
with the World Council of Churches functions in a personal role.
Nobody is there representing a church per se.
They're working in a functional...
I mean, in a personal role.
So really this has just been a smokescreen.
We have been involved in the World Council of Churches for years and our people have
been misled, and may I even say it, we have been lied to.
Well, also, John, if you check the directory of the World Council of
Churches, you'll find that we have membership or associate membership or
observer status in at least 13 nations, national branches of the World Council of
Churches.
I counted them one time some months ago.
And also, we have had a representative on the World Confessional Families branch of
the World Council of Churches, which is a very powerful branch of the
World Council of Churches.
And all that the World Council of Churches is and everything that we have been
involved in is the seventh evidence all these years is the Protestant Reformation
in reverse.
It totally negates the Three Angels message.
We have been called forth by God to call people out of Babylon and to separate from
Babylon.
And all that the World Council of Churches does is promote ecumenicalism,
which is the Protestant Reformation and negates the Three Angels message and
totally countermands everything we believe in the Three Angels message.
It's completely the opposite of the second and third.
And John, this all ties in with these trademark lawsuits, of course.
Absolutely.
Bob, we shouldn't be having anything to do with this in the first place.
Well, that's exactly the situation.
How insane.
We've lost our minds.
Our leadership have changed leaders and they don't even know it.
Well, John, we have still now on the records then.
We don't know exactly.
We weren't present.
There was no video camera, but we do have on the record the record of the World
Council of Churches that Dr. Detteren was a participant in the unanimous vote.
That's on that fax I sent you.
We have the statement that the Adventists were involved in the unanimous decision on
the back of the BEM document.
We also have a personal witness in Europe who told me over the telephone,
I called him in Europe, and he told me that he had read in the German-speaking
Adventist paper an article in which it said that Dr. Detteren had voted in favor
of the BEM document.
And he went on to tell me how when he was in America, he went to Dr. Detteren and he
said, how could you do this?
How could you go along with these men who are opposed to us?
And Dr. Detteren admitted privately to this man that he had voted in favor of it,
but he said in his heart he was in disagreement with the document.
Let me tell you something, Bob.
The thing that our historic Adventist people have to realize is that we have
been lied to and we've been lied to for years.
And I know that it's painful.
I am a third-generation Adventist.
I love this message, but we have got to realize that we have been lied to by our
leadership.
And it's about time that our historic Adventist people woke up and started
investigating things instead of just accepting the word of these men and
realize that we have been led down the primrose path.
John, this man then went to the union office in Vienna, Austria to find that
article and when he got there and got into the archives, that set of documents was
missing.
Isn't that amazing?
Bob, give us an update on the situation with the Caste yearbook at Andrews
University.
Hear if something happened about that.
Okay.
I was just talking to someone up at Andrews and they told me that the day
after the Caste came out, there were 50 to 100 black and Hispanic seminary students
that were so outraged by it that they wanted to have a public bonfire burning of
the Caste.
And some Koreans, I think, were also involved in that.
Now we've got Koreans, we've got the Hispanics, and we've got the blacks.
Where are all these little manby-pamby white boys at?
Why aren't they doing something?
Why are they such chickens?
This man told me that there were some other pastors in training at the seminary
who saw absolutely nothing wrong with it.
In fact, they saw it as commendable and that it was wonderful that it had a
spiritual motif.
And so what's interesting then, John, is that in the teeth of this growing
unrest about the Caste on the part of a few people at Andrews, the pastor,
the senior pastor, Dr. Dwight Nelson, I've got the copy of his sermon right
here.
He told a committee that he was going to publicly defend this magazine and support
it.
And then he entered the pulpit November 23rd and over the 50,000 watt station at
Andrews, which broadcasts all over Michiana for a great distance,
including Notre Dame University, which is about a 45 minute drive away.
He publicly supported this magazine to the skies.
Well, Bob, I tell you, I've got that tape in my hand.
I appreciate you supporting this and having it sent to me.
I think our folks at home need to hear a few minutes of this.
This is Dr. Dwight Nelson, senior pastor of the Pioneer Memorial Church at Berrien
Springs, Michigan.
You need to hear this, folks.
Since this is the Thanksgiving season, I want to take a moment right here at the
beginning to express a word of thankfulness.
It concerns this little production I hold in my hands.
Those of you that are students in the university, Andrews University recognize
this as the national 1991-92 cast.
If you have not seen this production, and most of you in the community have not,
you cannot appreciate the incredible design work that went into making this
particular cast a reality.
I've appreciated all of our casts, but in particular, this one that chose a
religious motif for its theme.
My hat is off to Joffrey Isaac and the entire team who are listed here in the
cover of this production.
Masterful, appropriate, indeed, for this institution and this Christian
campus.
In fact, last service, first service, I wrote a note.
We'll all have a chance in a moment to write notes, but I wrote it to Joffrey.
Dear Joffrey, just a note to let you know how much I appreciated your production and
design of the cast this year.
Super.
The religious motif naturally impressed me as your pastor on this campus.
Tasteful, pertinent, and right on for a Christian university.
God bless you in all your creations.
Creative endeavors in the future for him.
Peace.
And I signed it.
I do thank Joffrey and his team.
Job well done.
Thank you.
Oh, that was very enlightening, to say the least.
What else do you have for us, Bob?
Well, John, you know, we mentioned about Dr. William Loveless teaching the
spiritual exercises to the ministers and workers meeting.
What's the latest with that?
And he's been, of course, traveling around promoting this.
We got some material in the mail, which was part of a seminar that he was
giving on Friday nights at Loma Linda, entitled Lessons in Contemplative Prayer.
It happened in July.
And on the back page of the handout, there, as big as life, is the reading list
for Christian meditation and contemplation.
And there is Ignatius Loyola right on the list, the spiritual exercises to the St.
Ignatius.
And that's the training manual for the Jesuit Order.
So there is absolutely black and white evidence of direct promulgation of the
training manual of the Jesuits right there.
Bob, I just received a letter from a woman that was a professional hypnotist before
she found the truth and came into the Seventh Adventist Church.
And she says when she saw the New Age Adventism and the part one and heard that
tape of Bill Lovelace, she gasped in disbelief.
She says this is absolutely hypnotism in its highest form.
She says she went through and just outlined all the steps that Bill Lovelace
was doing.
And she was a professional hypnotist before she came to the Lord.
Isn't that something?
It's incredible, Bob, the stuff that it's having.
Yet our people are so reluctant to admit this stuff.
And they listen to our leadership because, I want to tell you, in case you don't
know, there has been such an unbelievable attack launched against the independent
ministry since we began bringing out this information.
And we haven't seen the worst of it by any means.
So, batten down the hatches, Bob, because we've sure stirred up a hornet's
nest, to say the least.
John, also on that reading list, there is a book by William Johnston,
who is a Jesuit living over in Japan, who is affiliated with Sophia University.
He is a Jesuit there, and so his book is in there.
And also, St. Teresa, the Complete Works of St. Teresa, is another book.
She is one of the greatest mystics of the Roman Catholic Church.
Bob, we're getting down to the end of not only the end of time, but the end of this
tape.
We're going to have to bring this thing to a close, but I appreciate so much you
calling and updating us at the end of this tape before it goes to the duplicators and
keeping our people abreast of what is going on.
May God bless you in your work.
God bless you too, John.
It's been wonderful working with you.
Thanks, Bob.
Bye-bye.