WEBVTT 00:01.260 --> 00:01.900 John McKay. 00:02.040 --> 00:02.580 How do you do? 00:02.620 --> 00:03.260 How nice to meet you. 00:03.280 --> 00:04.580 I do very well, thank you. 00:04.820 --> 00:05.220 Good, good. 00:05.740 --> 00:07.380 I've just been looking at your little pamphlet. 00:07.480 --> 00:08.400 Didn't have time to read it. 00:09.060 --> 00:10.920 Anyway, thank you very much for doing this. 00:10.940 --> 00:11.180 Pleasure. 00:11.760 --> 00:14.640 You do a lot of talks to schools, don't you? 00:14.640 --> 00:16.280 Yes, we've been on a high school today. 00:16.440 --> 00:16.520 Yeah. 00:16.520 --> 00:18.920 We had 11s, 12s and 13s, so it's been good. 00:19.020 --> 00:20.100 I mean, that's great grades. 00:20.620 --> 00:20.780 Yeah. 00:21.060 --> 00:21.220 Yeah. 00:21.380 --> 00:22.360 What sort of things do you tell them? 00:23.040 --> 00:26.800 Well, today we dealt with some of what you'll see tonight, dealing with some of 00:26.800 --> 00:32.060 our fossils of giant kangaroos and things like that, and changes that can be 00:32.060 --> 00:35.100 observed between the fossils and the present-day world, and then challenged 00:35.100 --> 00:38.960 them to think about, if creation was true, how would you recognise it if you fell 00:38.960 --> 00:39.240 over? 00:39.400 --> 00:39.680 Right, right. 00:40.020 --> 00:41.540 Now, how old are those fossils? 00:42.220 --> 00:45.880 Well, if I was speaking as an orthodox geologist, I'd say anywhere between 00:45.880 --> 00:48.080 100,000 and 10 million, right? 00:48.100 --> 00:49.320 Up to 40 million, right? 00:49.380 --> 00:55.340 So the age is a product of our theories about how we view the world. 00:55.560 --> 00:57.600 It's not a product of facts, not a product of evidence. 00:57.600 --> 01:03.740 No, because, you know, in my own geological research, I'm convinced that 01:03.740 --> 01:07.560 what Charles Lyell did to us all was give us a set of glasses to see the world 01:07.560 --> 01:07.780 through. 01:08.380 --> 01:13.260 So when we believe that whatever carbon-14 or that is doing now, it's always done, 01:13.700 --> 01:16.880 we have a philosophy about how the present connects to the past. 01:16.900 --> 01:18.320 It's not just carbon-14, though, is it? 01:18.460 --> 01:20.620 I mean, there are about a dozen different radioactivity. 01:20.620 --> 01:23.800 It doesn't really matter, because what you've got is a philosophy. 01:24.700 --> 01:28.300 You have to assume that the present is the key to the past, because you weren't there 01:28.300 --> 01:29.180 and I wasn't there. 01:29.400 --> 01:32.880 So whatever age you get, or I get, starts with faith. 01:32.960 --> 01:34.600 But it's not just carbon-14, is it? 01:34.680 --> 01:37.340 I mean, there's potassium, argon, and they all give the same answer, 01:37.420 --> 01:37.740 don't they? 01:37.740 --> 01:38.140 No, they don't. 01:38.280 --> 01:41.300 Carbon-14 wouldn't give you any more than 70,000 years, even if it worked. 01:41.320 --> 01:42.380 They overlap, they overlap. 01:42.900 --> 01:44.220 Well, they're designed... 01:44.220 --> 01:48.580 I mean, we keep looking for new dating methods for the simple reason that the 01:48.580 --> 01:50.380 last one didn't give us the answers we wanted. 01:50.580 --> 01:51.240 That's not true. 01:52.400 --> 01:54.180 It is true, whether you like it or not. 01:54.200 --> 01:54.880 How old do you think the world is? 01:54.880 --> 02:00.340 OK, I believe, just like you believe it might be billions, I believe we've got no 02:00.340 --> 02:03.240 more data than is sufficient for 6,000 or 7,000 years. 02:03.600 --> 02:07.660 And the starting position for both of those is faith, whether you like it or 02:07.660 --> 02:09.220 not, because I wasn't there and you weren't there. 02:09.260 --> 02:10.520 Well, you don't have to be there, do you? 02:10.560 --> 02:14.040 I mean, there are all sorts of things where we weren't there, but the detective 02:14.040 --> 02:15.020 work, the evidence... 02:15.440 --> 02:20.020 Well, your chief starting point is either history or a faith position that whatever 02:20.020 --> 02:21.760 the world is doing now, it's always done. 02:21.760 --> 02:26.300 So Charles Lyell said, Agra Falls is going backwards at 1 foot a year, divided into 02:26.300 --> 02:29.100 the gorge distance, that gives you 35,000 years. 02:29.360 --> 02:31.300 OK, you theologians have to bow the knee. 02:31.600 --> 02:32.960 So there's where it all starts. 02:33.040 --> 02:35.160 Whatever the present world is doing, it's always done. 02:35.180 --> 02:39.160 If there were only one method of dating, then you might have a point, but since 02:39.160 --> 02:41.820 there are so many and they overlap, and you've got dendrochronology, 02:42.000 --> 02:45.160 you've got carbon-14, you've got potassium-argon, you've got uranium, 02:45.480 --> 02:46.820 and they overlap... 02:46.820 --> 02:49.160 Perhaps it tells you that they're all using the same assumption. 02:49.700 --> 02:51.160 That's what it really tells you. 02:52.480 --> 02:53.640 Why are you so desperate? 02:53.780 --> 02:58.140 I mean, it sounds as though you're really on a losing wicket, because, I mean... 02:58.140 --> 03:02.160 No, no, it seems like you need the world to be old for evolution to be true, 03:02.300 --> 03:03.440 because you want to rule God out. 03:04.140 --> 03:07.660 We've got geology, we've got physics, we've got astronomy, we've got biology. 03:08.240 --> 03:11.840 Scientists in all these different disciplines converge upon an age of the 03:11.840 --> 03:14.440 Earth which is about four and a half billion years. 03:14.700 --> 03:16.120 Now, look, look, look, let's be honest. 03:16.120 --> 03:19.740 They converge on that because they're using Charles Lyell's assumption that the 03:19.740 --> 03:21.220 present is the key to the past. 03:21.360 --> 03:22.960 That's a fake starting position. 03:23.500 --> 03:27.960 And quote-unquote from Charles Lyell, my aim is to free science from Moses, 03:28.100 --> 03:29.120 and he's done it. 03:29.360 --> 03:32.940 Except for people like me who are willing to get up and look silly sometimes. 03:33.460 --> 03:36.900 Well, it's really fair to say that we have a faith position, and then we try to make 03:36.900 --> 03:37.360 everything fit. 03:37.440 --> 03:41.420 I mean, there are so many different pieces of scientific evidence, and they all fit 03:41.420 --> 03:41.700 together. 03:41.760 --> 03:42.780 We don't have a faith position. 03:42.780 --> 03:47.320 If the evidence really supported a 6,000-year-old Earth, we'd agree. 03:47.560 --> 03:51.880 Well, look, what your biggest problem is, Richard, when you deal with scientific 03:51.880 --> 03:56.980 evidence, you first of all have to believe things like man is rational, the world is 03:56.980 --> 03:59.880 real, and for every real and rational question, there's a real and rational 03:59.880 --> 04:00.120 answer. 04:00.220 --> 04:02.400 If you don't believe those things, you don't even do science. 04:02.420 --> 04:04.260 So why do you apply this just to evolution? 04:04.400 --> 04:07.100 I mean, why don't you apply it to any other science? 04:07.220 --> 04:07.300 I don't. 04:07.300 --> 04:08.720 And why don't you believe the world is flat? 04:09.380 --> 04:12.000 For the simple reason I've travelled around it. 04:12.000 --> 04:16.480 In other words, you can observe in the present, but here's the problem with this 04:16.480 --> 04:19.480 issue, and we need to be honest, we're trying to go backwards. 04:20.180 --> 04:21.020 We weren't there. 04:21.420 --> 04:24.740 Charles Lyell's book, 1831, Charles Darwin, 1859. 04:24.900 --> 04:29.860 If I take Darwin and say, if this is true, what would the evidence be 100 million 04:29.860 --> 04:33.420 years ago, then I'm stepping from the present back into the past. 04:33.740 --> 04:34.500 I have faith. 04:34.820 --> 04:37.080 If I do that with the Bible, I've got to be honest. 04:37.280 --> 04:38.700 It's a faith-starting position. 04:38.840 --> 04:40.940 Anybody who says it isn't is not telling you the truth. 04:40.940 --> 04:46.160 The difference between 6,000 years and 4.6 billion years, it's equivalent to 04:46.160 --> 04:50.000 believing, if you believe the world is 6,000 years, it's equivalent to believing 04:50.000 --> 04:53.980 the distance from New York to San Francisco is 7.8 yards. 04:54.420 --> 04:56.420 I mean, that's the scale of the disagreement. 04:56.960 --> 04:59.880 Oh, beyond a shadow of a doubt, but the reality is I can measure the 04:59.880 --> 05:03.200 distance to New York from here exactly because it's in the present. 05:03.780 --> 05:07.140 The minute I step backwards, there's several things that I have to do. 05:07.200 --> 05:10.080 I have to assume, how is the present connected to the past? 05:10.080 --> 05:14.580 Charles Lyell deliberately set out to remove a biblical approach. 05:14.620 --> 05:16.260 Lyell was a religious man. 05:16.420 --> 05:17.260 He had problems with Darwin. 05:17.260 --> 05:18.360 You're a religious man. 05:18.440 --> 05:19.160 Be honest, Richard. 05:19.320 --> 05:20.140 You're an atheist, right? 05:21.160 --> 05:22.540 That's not religion. 05:22.760 --> 05:23.700 I'm afraid it is. 05:23.800 --> 05:26.120 It's your blind faith position for which you get nothing. 05:26.200 --> 05:29.720 Nevertheless, Lyell was a Christian and Lyell had problems with Darwin. 05:30.360 --> 05:32.860 Lyell was actually quite reluctant to believe Darwinism. 05:32.860 --> 05:33.400 Of course he did. 05:33.540 --> 05:35.840 But in the end, he's a disciple of his own disciple. 05:35.840 --> 05:41.260 In reality, anybody who sets out to remove Moses from anywhere has a problem with 05:41.260 --> 05:44.560 Jesus Christ who said, if you don't believe Moses, you don't believe me. 05:44.860 --> 05:45.740 John chapter 5. 05:45.900 --> 05:47.340 You can call him a Christian. 05:47.640 --> 05:48.840 I would call him a church man. 05:48.980 --> 05:54.080 You would place what's written in the Bible ahead of the whole of science is 05:54.080 --> 05:55.160 what you're saying. 05:55.580 --> 05:58.180 Well, I don't think even Isaac Newton would have had a problem with that 05:58.180 --> 05:58.540 statement. 05:58.660 --> 05:59.580 Yes, because he did too. 05:59.700 --> 06:03.800 But what's happened between then and now is the change in the glasses we wear. 06:03.800 --> 06:08.460 And if I'm achieving anything in schools or colleges, I'm getting the kids to say, 06:08.600 --> 06:09.560 OK, let's be honest. 06:09.880 --> 06:13.500 How are we seeing the world and what questions are we asking as a result? 06:13.880 --> 06:16.160 If I'm going to be a scientist, I have to believe I'm real. 06:16.380 --> 06:17.360 The world is real. 06:17.660 --> 06:19.280 We can ask real and rational questions. 06:19.400 --> 06:22.820 They are Christian presuppositions, not Buddhist presuppositions, not Hindu 06:22.820 --> 06:23.500 presupposition. 06:23.920 --> 06:26.280 We got them exclusively from a biblical worldview. 06:26.900 --> 06:29.540 Even the word geology is invented by the Bishop of Durham. 06:29.540 --> 06:35.820 So we've got a big, big system of Christian thinking which predates anything 06:35.820 --> 06:36.460 you're talking about. 06:37.140 --> 06:40.200 I'm trying to work out whether you're for real, because I can't believe you're 06:40.200 --> 06:40.760 really sincere. 06:40.960 --> 06:44.580 I mean, I think you... I'm trying to work out where you're coming from. 06:44.620 --> 06:46.740 You can't seriously believe what you're saying you believe. 06:47.180 --> 06:49.620 So I'm wondering what your agenda is. 06:50.560 --> 06:53.760 OK, well, you may have trouble with seriously believe, but I've been doing it 06:53.760 --> 06:56.780 for 20 years, so obviously it must be a good act, right? 06:56.880 --> 06:58.740 Yeah, I believe it's obviously a good act. 06:58.740 --> 07:02.380 And in reality, you will find there are many young people who are now Christians 07:02.380 --> 07:04.280 as a result of what we decided. 07:04.440 --> 07:07.260 OK, the young people are having trouble with Christianity. 07:07.620 --> 07:08.400 What's their problem? 07:08.780 --> 07:12.340 It's creation versus evolution, nine times out of ten in this present 07:12.340 --> 07:12.340 world. 07:12.340 --> 07:13.260 Yeah, I believe it. 07:13.320 --> 07:15.820 But what do you say when you meet somebody like a bishop? 07:16.000 --> 07:17.960 I mean, bishops don't go along with you, do they? 07:18.040 --> 07:20.580 I mean, they all accept evolution as God's way of doing things. 07:20.600 --> 07:24.340 Well, I had a good debate against John Polkinghorne, and he actually lost that 07:24.340 --> 07:25.500 debate, and it's worth seeing. 07:25.500 --> 07:28.180 In what sense did he lose it? 07:28.540 --> 07:31.620 Well, let's put it this way, he politely wiped the floor, if you want to see the 07:31.620 --> 07:35.380 debate, because he was trying to argue that the God of the Bible used evolution, 07:35.860 --> 07:39.820 and Charles Darwin would have been the first to disagree, because the God of the 07:39.820 --> 07:44.020 Bible says he made the world good, and evolution hasn't got such a concept. 07:44.160 --> 07:45.060 Everything's just natural. 07:45.460 --> 07:46.860 Death is part of the system. 07:46.980 --> 07:47.420 Well, that's true. 07:47.420 --> 07:50.620 The biblical God says there was no death until sin. 07:51.080 --> 07:53.880 So you can have a God, but it's your own imagination. 07:53.880 --> 07:56.800 Right, so you have to cut that line in two. 07:57.540 --> 07:58.440 Yeah, what about thorns? 07:58.580 --> 08:01.600 Are you one of those who believes that thorns didn't come into the world until 08:01.600 --> 08:02.460 after Adam fell? 08:02.780 --> 08:06.340 Yeah, I am, but you see, what you're really saying is that roses started out 08:06.340 --> 08:09.240 without thorns, but then my biology professor said that too. 08:09.460 --> 08:09.640 Yeah. 08:09.780 --> 08:12.720 Because we have to start from seaweed, which doesn't have thorns, and end up with 08:12.720 --> 08:13.240 roses, which does. 08:13.240 --> 08:14.660 Yeah, but you're just playing with words now, aren't you? 08:14.660 --> 08:17.720 No, I'm not, because you have to explain where thorns come from too. 08:18.080 --> 08:20.980 But you take millions of years with the prince and the toad sort of story. 08:20.980 --> 08:24.300 Yeah, what about thorns being found in the same fossil beds as dinosaurs? 08:24.460 --> 08:25.480 What do you make of that? 08:26.080 --> 08:29.500 Well, you've got to remember that the word geology, as I said, was invented by the 08:29.500 --> 08:30.220 Bishop of Durham. 08:30.700 --> 08:33.460 Our original geologists were all catastrophists. 08:33.920 --> 08:36.160 They were basically creationists in their concept. 08:36.680 --> 08:40.360 What you and I have done is re-look at the geological record through Charles Layles' 08:40.660 --> 08:40.720 eyes. 08:40.740 --> 08:42.500 I don't really care about the original geologists. 08:42.640 --> 08:44.160 What about modern geologists? 08:44.160 --> 08:48.400 Right, the fact is, you have a story about the rocks and the past. 08:48.500 --> 08:52.540 When I go out on a dinosaur dig and I dig up a dinosaur, it doesn't come up with a 08:52.540 --> 08:55.360 label that says, Hi, I was here 200 million years ago. 08:55.700 --> 09:00.180 I found it in the hole today, and then I proceed to try and work out a story which 09:00.180 --> 09:02.100 I actually can't get back to check. 09:02.260 --> 09:04.300 So you think dinosaurs co-existed with humans? 09:04.680 --> 09:06.300 I've no problem with that at all. 09:06.340 --> 09:10.300 Okay, and why don't we see fossil dinosaurs and fossil humans together? 09:10.800 --> 09:11.580 Why would you? 09:11.700 --> 09:14.700 I mean, if you had a worldwide flood today, would you expect kangaroos to be 09:14.700 --> 09:15.480 buried with Brits? 09:15.720 --> 09:16.540 Not necessarily. 09:16.780 --> 09:17.500 Good, good. 09:17.720 --> 09:19.140 You've made the point I'm trying to make. 09:19.260 --> 09:23.220 But you would expect to see dinosaurs co-existing with modern mammals. 09:23.420 --> 09:25.500 Okay, define your word co-existing. 09:26.760 --> 09:28.360 Do you mean in the same layer? 09:28.840 --> 09:29.240 Yes. 09:29.400 --> 09:32.680 Right, for the simple reason that you believe each layer got their one on top of 09:32.680 --> 09:35.400 the other, and they all took vast amounts of time to get there. 09:35.400 --> 09:39.240 Now I'll tell you what I've done in reverse to challenge geologists with this. 09:39.640 --> 09:43.740 Go to the Grand Canyon, start at the top with Joe Tourist, it's a half a mile down 09:43.740 --> 09:48.160 to the bottom of the fossils, and in our orthodox geology we say that's about 300 09:48.160 --> 09:49.560 million years worth of time. 09:50.020 --> 09:54.020 Okay, let's reverse the question we normally ask and say, if it really took 09:54.020 --> 09:57.160 that long, how much rock on average is laid down each year? 09:57.460 --> 09:57.880 Answer? 09:58.160 --> 10:01.560 About a 40th of, you know, 1 by 10 to the 4th of an inch. 10:02.180 --> 10:03.060 It's insignificant. 10:03.060 --> 10:05.600 So something's wrong with our story somewhere. 10:05.620 --> 10:07.500 Well it does happen, it continuously does. 10:07.620 --> 10:10.280 But if it doesn't, now you've shot evolution in the foot. 10:10.280 --> 10:10.700 Now you haven't. 10:10.800 --> 10:14.460 Because you have a fossil record full of gaps, which is Charles Darwin's biggest 10:14.460 --> 10:14.820 problem. 10:14.860 --> 10:15.980 Of course you have a fossil record full of gaps. 10:15.980 --> 10:16.440 Good, good. 10:16.440 --> 10:17.380 Everyone knows that. 10:17.540 --> 10:17.820 Great. 10:18.300 --> 10:20.500 That's one reason why I ceased being an evolutionist. 10:20.520 --> 10:21.820 You don't get fossils in the wrong order, do you? 10:21.900 --> 10:23.620 You don't find, as J.B.S. 10:23.640 --> 10:25.360 Horvath said, fossil rabbits in the Cambrian. 10:25.360 --> 10:27.940 Well, I haven't found a fossil rabbit in the Cambrian. 10:28.300 --> 10:31.880 But I tell you what, I was out in Wales the other day, and here we have a lovely 10:31.880 --> 10:36.000 mixture of land plants all in with seashells, and I found exactly the same 10:36.000 --> 10:36.860 beds in the USA. 10:37.400 --> 10:41.040 And I'm convinced that Derek Age, evolutionist as he was, right, 10:41.140 --> 10:46.600 anticreationist, but a catastrophist was right when he said the early catastrophist 10:46.600 --> 10:50.520 geologists were much more objective than the present day was. 10:50.520 --> 10:54.740 And you, above all people, should know that we've got currently the thinking of 10:54.740 --> 10:59.200 punctuated equilibrium, because it works better than Darwin's slow punctuated 10:59.200 --> 10:59.520 theory. 10:59.660 --> 11:01.520 Slow, you know, progression theory. 11:01.560 --> 11:02.500 It really does. 11:03.140 --> 11:08.300 For me, Darwin's inspiration comes from evidence, but where do you think Darwin 11:08.300 --> 11:08.900 was coming from? 11:09.040 --> 11:11.140 Where did Darwin get his inspiration from? 11:11.140 --> 11:14.940 Well, I think the BBC program, which had him sitting outside the church 11:14.940 --> 11:19.300 on his daughter's gravestone, refusing to go inside, because we've got to remember 11:19.300 --> 11:23.540 he had a master's degree in theology, right, is a real key to understanding. 11:23.720 --> 11:27.800 As his great, great grandson Richard wrote in Nature or Science, I don't know which 11:27.800 --> 11:32.240 one, that when Charles Darwin's favourite daughter Annie died, he turned his back on 11:32.240 --> 11:32.860 Christy Abbott. 11:33.220 --> 11:38.000 It's only after that that he felt free to actually embrace all of his evolutionary 11:38.000 --> 11:39.920 theology, is what I call it. 11:39.920 --> 11:45.180 So his inspiration is really, I'm angry if there's a good God, why should my 11:45.180 --> 11:47.680 favourite daughter die and my poor little single good girl? 11:47.760 --> 11:48.760 A good question. 11:49.160 --> 11:53.020 His answer is ultimately, there's no God, everything just happens naturally. 11:53.260 --> 11:59.400 Annie died in 1851, and Darwin wrote a pretty full sketch of his theory in 1844. 11:59.780 --> 12:01.340 Yeah, but he published it in what year? 12:01.640 --> 12:02.180 1859. 12:02.840 --> 12:06.860 So he felt free after that to actually go with it. 12:07.280 --> 12:10.500 Before 1859, he's hesitant, he doesn't publish. 12:11.140 --> 12:14.860 He's pushed on by competitors, he's pushed on by his own thinking. 12:15.240 --> 12:18.220 You can even see it in his books, when he starts out in book one, 12:18.560 --> 12:19.920 there's still a creator there. 12:20.280 --> 12:23.920 By the time you get to book two and three, his creator is out the window. 12:24.640 --> 12:29.940 But in 1844 he had this full theory, why would he have developed that theory if 12:29.940 --> 12:31.280 he didn't pick the evidence? 12:31.280 --> 12:35.720 Well, if you lived in Victoriana, England, and all the bishops were some 12:35.720 --> 12:39.480 sort of catastrophic creationists, you would have to be a brave man. 12:39.960 --> 12:42.900 Unfortunately for him, he was independently wealthy, so he didn't really 12:42.900 --> 12:43.820 care in the end. 12:44.200 --> 12:49.120 But, like most of us, he goes from his daughter dying up to the publishing, 12:49.360 --> 12:52.260 and there is a progression there, just as there is a progression after he 12:52.260 --> 12:53.340 publishes his first book. 12:53.620 --> 12:55.380 And it's more and more anti-Christian. 12:55.620 --> 12:58.160 Well, but you can't say that it was his daughter dying that inspired him, 12:58.160 --> 12:59.220 because he wrote it out... 12:59.220 --> 13:02.180 Well, I'd suggest you read what his great-great grandson Richard said, 13:02.260 --> 13:04.340 because he would reach that sort of conclusion. 13:04.780 --> 13:06.400 That was a motivating factor. 13:06.560 --> 13:08.080 You don't think he was motivated by Satan? 13:09.640 --> 13:11.940 Er, he never admits to anything like that. 13:12.000 --> 13:14.220 I don't have any evidence he went to séances, right? 13:14.320 --> 13:16.040 I wouldn't be silly enough to say that. 13:16.780 --> 13:18.800 I thought I'd read that you had said it somewhere. 13:19.720 --> 13:21.720 Well, you'd have to find it for me. 13:21.740 --> 13:24.580 I can't remember saying anything like that at all, so... 13:24.580 --> 13:26.860 I wouldn't, er, you know, it's not what he says. 13:27.920 --> 13:32.000 What sorts of things do you tell the children when you lecture to children? 13:32.100 --> 13:37.400 OK, we've just put a new three-dimensional website up, which has got the whole course 13:37.400 --> 13:39.660 that we do in schools, particularly the public schools. 13:40.000 --> 13:44.060 So anybody who wants to hear the full answer can go to evidenceweb.net, 13:44.420 --> 13:48.280 click on education, and then they'll see the whole high school course, which deals 13:48.280 --> 13:49.580 with basically that question. 13:50.020 --> 13:54.400 If creation is true, or if evolution is true, how would you recognise the evidence 13:54.400 --> 13:54.920 of your fellow? 13:54.920 --> 13:59.760 Because my view of education is, if you can teach the kids how to think, 14:00.040 --> 14:02.180 you're miles ahead from teaching them what to think. 14:02.520 --> 14:05.880 Because then they will be able to think, which is what this country and every other 14:05.880 --> 14:06.960 country in the West needs. 14:07.040 --> 14:08.680 Certainly all for teaching them to think. 14:08.820 --> 14:10.680 Good, great, excellent. 14:11.040 --> 14:12.220 We agree on one thing. 14:12.880 --> 14:17.300 Well, I'm not sure we really do, actually, but, er, but still. 14:17.840 --> 14:21.140 There must be a lot of money behind you if you can put together three-dimensional 14:21.140 --> 14:21.680 websites. 14:22.300 --> 14:27.280 We have supporters, and folks can go and see us at evidenceweb.net, and they're 14:27.280 --> 14:30.380 free to make donations, but no, you wouldn't say this is the way to get 14:30.380 --> 14:30.620 rich. 14:30.680 --> 14:33.280 I used to earn a lot more when I was lecturing in geology for technical 14:33.280 --> 14:33.400 education. 14:33.400 --> 14:34.560 You were lecturing in geology? 14:34.740 --> 14:35.780 Yeah, for technical education. 14:36.000 --> 14:36.840 You got a degree in geology then? 14:36.860 --> 14:39.900 I got a degree in geology, yeah, and in education too, so... 14:39.900 --> 14:41.400 Are your donations tax-free? 14:41.980 --> 14:43.760 Er, in different countries they are. 14:43.980 --> 14:47.160 Like you have a system here, they have a different system in America, so it would 14:47.160 --> 14:49.620 depend on what each group in each country did. 14:49.620 --> 14:51.520 Which countries is it tax-free in? 14:51.820 --> 14:53.480 Er, it's tax-free in England. 14:53.860 --> 14:56.480 I mean, you have your sort of reverse system. 14:56.500 --> 14:58.480 It's tax-free, I know the reverse system. 14:58.700 --> 14:59.780 So you have that. 15:00.080 --> 15:03.660 In America, it's a slightly different system, but the result is the same. 15:03.740 --> 15:07.820 That means that in Britain, your enterprise is supported by the British 15:07.820 --> 15:08.980 taxpayer, in effect. 15:10.220 --> 15:12.920 Yeah, well, you've got to remember the government got the money off the taxpayer 15:12.920 --> 15:15.260 in the first place, so please don't say it's their money. 15:15.540 --> 15:17.120 I do remember that. 15:17.120 --> 15:20.860 The point I'd like to make is that it's God who provides for all of us, 15:21.040 --> 15:21.940 atheists included. 15:22.820 --> 15:28.620 Yeah, well, I mean, tax-free charities are supposed to be good for the public, 15:28.760 --> 15:32.860 they're supposed to be good for education, or good for something like that. 15:32.940 --> 15:33.880 Can you really claim that? 15:34.080 --> 15:35.980 Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. 15:36.480 --> 15:39.240 And if the question were raised in Parliament... 15:39.240 --> 15:43.240 ...that they should come to schools and watch us, right? 15:43.340 --> 15:46.240 And see the results in kids who learn how to think. 15:46.280 --> 15:49.640 And again, go to evidenceweb.net, click on the Search for the Origin of Life 15:49.640 --> 15:51.500 program, and learn how to think yourself. 15:51.960 --> 15:52.560 I should do that. 15:52.680 --> 15:59.680 It does rather seem to me that it's rather like going back more than a century, 15:59.880 --> 16:00.100 actually. 16:01.360 --> 16:02.680 A century and a half. 16:02.680 --> 16:08.260 Well, we had a very clever premier in our state, and somebody accused him of turning 16:08.260 --> 16:12.480 back the clock 30 years, and said yes, but then we had no inflation and no 16:12.480 --> 16:13.000 unemployment. 16:13.220 --> 16:17.440 So I have no problem with saying yes, I had this concept from that long ago, 16:17.580 --> 16:21.060 but I grew up outside the church, so I didn't grow up brainwashed with this. 16:21.360 --> 16:25.560 It's the result of finishing my university course, listening to students say, 16:25.640 --> 16:27.940 if evolution is true, why can't we see it happening? 16:28.100 --> 16:29.800 Third-year genetics question to the professor. 16:30.460 --> 16:32.020 You take that question seriously, do you? 16:32.020 --> 16:32.700 Oh yeah, yeah. 16:32.740 --> 16:35.540 And the professor, his answer, I took even more seriously when he said, 16:35.820 --> 16:39.200 well, it happens so slowly, you wouldn't expect to see it happening. 16:39.360 --> 16:41.180 And all of a sudden I thought, hang on. 16:41.220 --> 16:41.780 That's true. 16:42.080 --> 16:42.380 Good. 16:42.580 --> 16:45.800 So in other words, what you don't see happening is not science, it's 16:45.800 --> 16:48.960 unobservable, and you are the first person on PBS. 16:50.800 --> 16:53.540 You're using the word see as meaning see within one lifetime. 16:54.000 --> 16:57.660 If a phenomenon takes billions of years, of course you're not going to see it. 16:57.660 --> 17:01.160 Which means you have a faith position, and you need to admit it. 17:01.160 --> 17:05.140 It means you have to use other evidence than the evidence of one man's eyes. 17:05.400 --> 17:08.200 Oh, sorry, Darwin was only 1859. 17:08.680 --> 17:11.640 That's only 150 years ago almost, right? 17:11.980 --> 17:15.580 And you haven't seen it, and I haven't seen it, so please stop calling it 17:15.580 --> 17:16.020 science. 17:16.780 --> 17:20.760 Teacher, what's more interesting than just seeing with one man's eyes? 17:20.880 --> 17:24.620 You can see through geology's eyes, you can see through instruments' eyes. 17:24.980 --> 17:29.700 You know perfectly well that we have instruments that can measure things that 17:29.700 --> 17:31.280 the human eye can't see. 17:31.420 --> 17:31.880 Now we're back to the start. 17:31.880 --> 17:33.480 You might as well say you don't believe in electrons. 17:33.540 --> 17:37.460 Now we're back to the start, because you have to assume what you're seeing now is 17:37.460 --> 17:38.300 always applied. 17:38.680 --> 17:41.500 That's your faith position to remove Moses. 17:41.860 --> 17:45.020 You can't see electrons, and do you not believe in electrons? 17:45.520 --> 17:48.540 Well, I'm afraid if you can't see God, do you not believe in God? 17:48.700 --> 17:50.200 Let's be objective here. 17:50.540 --> 17:50.900 Answer the question. 17:51.160 --> 17:53.760 I have no problem with electrons, but they're here now. 17:53.780 --> 17:53.780 Well, why not? 17:53.780 --> 17:54.700 Because you can't see them. 17:54.940 --> 17:55.400 No, no, no. 17:55.500 --> 17:57.660 I can actually run them through bits of paper. 17:57.820 --> 17:58.700 I can see the results. 17:58.700 --> 17:59.880 That's right, you have instruments that can measure them. 17:59.880 --> 18:03.100 But the minute you start to turn that backwards and say it was doing the same 18:03.100 --> 18:07.240 thing 150, 200 million years ago, please admit to the allegiance of your 18:07.240 --> 18:07.460 faith. 18:07.540 --> 18:11.740 And call what you're teaching philosophy or atheism, if you're going to really be 18:11.740 --> 18:12.000 honest. 18:12.120 --> 18:13.260 And my time is up. 18:13.260 --> 18:13.940 That's ridiculous. 18:14.140 --> 18:15.400 But anyway, thank you very much. 18:15.420 --> 18:15.840 Thank you.