WEBVTT

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome.

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The battle over evolution is only one
skirmish in a much larger war.

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Science simply makes no use of the
hypothesis of God.

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Ask yourself, what has intelligent design
given us?

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Nothing.

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We cannot accept intelligent design as an
alternative scientific theory.

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They will never accept that we have a
better argument.

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They just pester us and they waste our
time.

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Ben is speaking on the topic that has
become increasingly important to him over

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recent years.

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While Ben has always been an ardent
supporter of science, lately he has

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noticed an alarming trend in the
scientific establishment that could have

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welcomed for Mr. Ben Stein.

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Thank you very much, gangsters.

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Freedom is the essence of America.

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We're talking about freedom of speech,
freedom of assembly, freedom from fear,

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freedom of religion.

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Martin Luther King said, America is
essentially a dream.

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And he said it is a dream of freedom and
equality, and freedom is the way to

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equality.

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And America simply would not be America
without freedom.

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In every turning point in our history,
the decision has always been about

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freedom.

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Freedom is what makes this country great.

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Freedom has allowed us to create,
to explore, to overcome every challenge we

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have faced as a nation.

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But imagine if these freedoms were taken
away.

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Where would we be?

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What would we lose?

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Well, unfortunately, I no longer need to
imagine.

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It's happening.

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We are losing our freedom in one of the
most important sectors of society,

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science.

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I have always assumed that scientists were
free to ask any question, to pursue any

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line of inquiry, without fear of reprisal.

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But recently, I have been alarmed to
discover that this is not the case.

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It all began when I met evolutionary
biologist Richard Sternberg in Washington,

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D.C.

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His life was nearly ruined when he strayed
from the party line while serving as

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editor of a scientific journal affiliated
with the prestigious Smithsonian Museum of

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Natural History.

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Your office was over there?

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That's correct.

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This here is the West Wing.

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Directly ahead of us is the West Wing of
the Natural History Museum.

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So now you're not there anymore because
you're a bad boy.

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No, I'm not.

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No, I was exiled.

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You're a bad boy.

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You question the powers that be.

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What was Dr. Sternberg's crime?

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He dared to publish an article by Dr.
Stephen Meyer, one of the leading lights

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of the Intelligent Design movement.

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The paper ignited a firestorm of
controversy, merely because it suggested

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Intelligent Design might be able to
explain how life began.

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As a result, Dr. Sternberg lost his
office, his political and religious

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beliefs were investigated, and he was
pressured to resign.

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The questioning of Darwinism was a bridge
too far for many.

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The mentioning of Intelligent Design that
occurs at the end of the paper was over

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the top.

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And I think the Intelligent Design
proponents have raised a number of very

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important questions.

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And you wanted to get those questions
brought up and discussed.

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Placed on the table.

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Placed on the table.

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People were so upset about it.

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They were so upset that you could see
their... they had a physical emotional

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reaction.

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Wow.

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They were saying that Stephen C.

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Meyer is a well-known Christian,
that Stephen C.

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Meyer is an Intelligent Design proponent,
that Stephen C.

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Meyer is a Republican.

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It was all couched in terms of religion,
politics, and sociology.

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The way the chair of the department put it
is that I was viewed as an intellectual

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terrorist.

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Terrorist.

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Because of giving the topic of Intelligent
Design some modicum of credibility.

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What happened to Dr. Sternberg was
terrible, but surely it was just an

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isolated case.

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I was still pretty skeptical, so naturally
I checked in with the head of the Skeptic

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Society, Michael Shermer.

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So I can't prove there is no God or Yahweh
in your case, any more than I can prove

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there is no Isis, Zeus, Apollo,
Brahma, Ganesha, Mithras, Allah,

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or for that matter the Flying Spaghetti
Monster.

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And think about just one thing,
why would the aliens look like this?

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Who drew that?

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Skepticism, it's not a position you take,
it's just an approach to claims.

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This one is called the Borderlands of
Science, where sense meets nonsense.

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Is Intelligent Design nonsense?

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Well, it's unproven, so in that sense it's
nonsense.

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So I would put it in the sort of shaded
areas between good solid science and total

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nonsense, you know, it's sort of three
quarters of the way toward the nonsense

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side.

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But you think nevertheless people should
be allowed to speak about it and publish

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papers about it?

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They are free to write and publish and be
heard in public forums and go to

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conferences just like everybody else does.

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Well, what if a person published
something, say it's a Smithsonian,

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in favor of Intelligent Design and then
lost his job over it?

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And it had been peer-reviewed and
published and then he lost his job over it

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anyway.

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What would happen?

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What do you think about that situation?

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I think that particular situation there
was something else going on.

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What was going on?

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I don't know.

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I mean, I don't know because I don't know,
but I think there had to be something.

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People don't get fired over something like
that.

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You roll up your sleeves, you get to work,
you do the research, you get your grants,

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you get your data, you publish and you
work your butt off and that's how you get

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your theories taught.

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But wait a minute.

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What if you try and try and roll up your
sleeves and go to work and work your butt

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off and they say, well, we're going to
fire you if you even mention the word

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Intelligent Design?

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I don't think that's happening.

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Where is that happening?

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George Mason University.

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Throughout its 50 year history,
our mission has remained clear.

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To prepare a diverse population of
students to think and to grow in a climate

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of unbridled academic freedom.

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After Dr. Caroline Crocker simply
mentioned Intelligent Design in her cell

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biology class at George Mason University,
her promising academic career came to an

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abrupt end.

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My supervisor invited me into his office.

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He said, I'm going to have to discipline
you for teaching creationism.

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And I said, I mentioned Intelligent Design
on a couple of slides, but I did not teach

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creationism.

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He said, nonetheless, you have to be
disciplined.

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At the end of the semester, I lost my job.

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Not only did this well-loved professor
lose her job at George Mason, she suddenly

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found herself blacklisted, unable to find
a job anywhere.

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So whenever I interviewed for a job,
I would be offered it usually on the spot.

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Since this has happened, and since people
can Google my name, I'm finding that when

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I send my credentials, I do get
interviews, I get many interviews,

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but I never get offered a job.

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I don't tell them about my science sin.

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I was only trying to teach what the
university stands for, which is academic

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freedom.

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There's nothing to be learned in
neurosurgery by assuming an accidental

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origin for the parts of the brain that we
work on.

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It wasn't just biologists who were feeling
the Darwinist's wrath.

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When neurosurgeon Michael Egnor wrote an
essay to high school students saying

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doctors didn't need to study evolution in
order to practice medicine, the Darwinists

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were quick to try and exterminate this new
threat.

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A lot of people on a lot of blogs called
me unprintable names that were printed.

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There are a lot of very, very nasty
comments.

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Other people suggested that people call
the university I work at and suggested

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perhaps it's time for me to retire.

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I realized when I kind of went public with
my doubts about the adequacy of Darwin's

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theory that I would encounter criticism.

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What has amazed me is the viciousness and
the sort of baseness of it.

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I'm an old guy, I have tenure,
I'm academically safe, but the young

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people and what is happening to them in
America right now because of this

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scientism gulag is really terrible.

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Apparently, Professor Marx was not as safe
as he thought.

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A few months after this interview,
Baylor University shut down his research

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website and forced him to return grant
money once they discovered a link between

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his work and intelligent design.

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In order to attract grants, you have to
market yourself.

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So you put up sites and call yourself labs
and groups and things like that in order

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to get visibility.

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And in my entire experience in academia,
I never went to any superior and asked

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them any permission to put up any of these
labs.

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So the fact that this was singled out,
let alone shut down is jaw dropping.

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It's astonishing.

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I have never been treated like this in my
about 30 years in academia.

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If you peel back the onion, I think that
there is no doubt that the center of this

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is my work in what some would call
intelligent design.

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People really get emotional about this.

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When you ever say intelligent design in a
room of academics, them's fighting words.

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Creationists.

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Astronomer Guillermo Gonzales found
himself in a fierce shootout with Iowa

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State University following the publication
of his book, arguing that the universe is

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intelligently designed.

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Despite a stellar research record that has
led to the discovery of several planets,

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his application for tenure was denied,
putting his career in jeopardy.

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I worried about my tenure a little bit in
2005 when the petition was being

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circulated because I viewed that as a
strategy of Hector Avalos and his

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associates to try to poison the atmosphere
on campus against me because he knew I

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wasn't tenured yet and I was very
vulnerable.

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I have little doubt that I would have
tenure now if I hadn't done any

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professional work on intelligent design.

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Dr. Gonzales had this advice for
scientists who might be thinking about

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following his example.

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If they value their careers, they should
keep quiet about their intelligent design

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views.

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We know there are times and places to be
quiet and other times and places when we

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can make noise if we want to.

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Will you show us?

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Of course.

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Boys and girls, how would you like to show
some of the ways we know of being quiet?

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It's the kind of thing where you just
learn to keep your mouth shut.

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In addition to those scientists who were
willing to appear on camera, we

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encountered many more who didn't dare show
their face for fear of losing their jobs.

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You use an intelligent design perspective
to get the research done, but you're not

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allowed to talk about it in public.

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And so there is definitely incentive,
if you think about it, for people to

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remain within the mainstream.

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You know, what's he up to?

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What is he thinking?

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Is he one of them?

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That kind of thing.

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If I write intelligent design,
they hear creationism.

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They hear religious right.

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They hear theocracy.

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So it appears Mr. Shermer, the self-styled
skeptic, was wrong on this one.

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Intelligent design was being suppressed in
a systematic and ruthless fashion.

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But maybe intelligent design should be
suppressed.

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I didn't like what was happening to these
scientists, but on the other hand,

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we don't want our kids being taught that
the Earth is flat or that the Holocaust

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never happened.

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It was time to ask the scientific
establishment, what was so bad about

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intelligent design?

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Intelligent design people are not genuine
scientists.

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Intelligent design is a racket.

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It's just propaganda.

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The only intelligent thing about it is to
have got people to call it that.

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It's really very stupid as well.

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Everybody knows science education in
America is appalling.

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What we don't need at this time is
intelligent design in the classrooms.

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To present intelligent design stunts their
educational growth.

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It stunts their intellectual growth.

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But what I don't understand is how these
animals could have been on Earth millions

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of years before man.

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And the Bible says the whole Earth was
created in only six days.

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It wasn't just the educational aspects of
intelligent design that had scientists

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concerned.

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Many suspected the movement masked a much
larger agenda.

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Intelligent design is a set of excuses to
squeeze creationism into the classrooms.

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Get intelligent design in the schools
today and we can have school prayers

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tomorrow.

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Any other complaints?

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Can you imagine anything more boring?

16:55.020 --> 16:58.380
The boredom attached to I.D.

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is supreme.

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It is so boring that I can't even bother
to think about it much anymore.

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It's just utterly boring.

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Love is in the air.

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Everywhere I look around.

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Love is in the air.

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Every sight and every sound.

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Love was in the air all right,
but none of it was directed toward

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intelligent design.

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There seemed to be a lot to hate about I
.D.

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and nearly all of that hatred was focused
on one place.

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The people from the Discovery Institute,
the people who are doing the intelligent

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design, they're all varnish and no
product.

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The Discovery Institute is a propaganda
mill.

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It's an institution designed to suck in
money from religious investors and turn it

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into a sanitized, somewhat secular version
of the creation story to get it into the

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schools.

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If they have a way of understanding nature
that's superior to the one that we all are

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making lots of discoveries using,
great.

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Bring it on.

18:16.990 --> 18:19.450
We are really, really lost.

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I think it's on third.

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I think it's on third.

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I think it's down there.

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I have no idea where this place is.

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I guess I'll just keep walking.

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Do you have any idea where the Discovery
Institute is?

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Have you ever heard of that?

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Never heard of that.

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Okay, thank you.

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How are you, sir?

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Good.

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Do you have any idea where the Discovery
Institute is?

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Not a clue.

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Thank you.

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Welcome to Seattle.

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Thank you, sir.

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It's got to be this whole building.

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Yes, where is the Discovery Institute,
please?

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Discovery Institute is on 8th floor,
suite 808.

19:10.050 --> 19:11.370
Okay, very good.

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Aha!

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Success at last.

19:19.630 --> 19:20.110
Aha!

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We found you.

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Are you Bruce Chapman?

19:24.690 --> 19:25.130
I am.

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How are you?

19:25.570 --> 19:26.250
I'm Ben Stein.

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Very kind of you to have me here.

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I'm delighted to meet you.

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Can I look around and see your offices?

19:31.210 --> 19:31.510
Absolutely.

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Do you just have this floor or do you have
several other floors as well?

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No, this is it.

19:38.030 --> 19:38.750
This is it?

19:38.890 --> 19:41.750
You've been in an awful lot of trouble for
being in such a small office.

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I thought it was going to be like the
Pentagon.

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We're like the little boy that said the
emperor has no clothes.

19:46.910 --> 19:49.050
And he didn't have a big organization
either.

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When you go around and raise funds,
your people are not saying to you,

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by the way, we're going to get all these
scientists out of the classroom and put

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Christ back in the classroom.

20:00.490 --> 20:03.990
Well, I don't know that Christ has ever
been in the science classroom.

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This is not a religious argument.

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This is something that people...

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We have fellows who are Jewish or agnostic
or various other things.

20:12.050 --> 20:15.450
There are people... there are Muslim
scientists.

20:15.670 --> 20:18.770
There are people of all kinds of
backgrounds who agree that Darwin's theory

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has failed.

20:19.330 --> 20:21.170
And so why would you bring religion into
it?

20:21.170 --> 20:21.950
You don't need religion.

20:22.310 --> 20:23.710
This is a red herring.

20:24.170 --> 20:29.130
And people who don't have an argument are
reduced to throwing sand in your eyes.

20:29.130 --> 20:33.330
Well, if the Discovery Institute could get
its wish about this subject, what would

20:33.330 --> 20:34.090
your wish be?

20:34.090 --> 20:38.590
Well, on this subject, as on others,
we'd like people to be able to have a

20:38.590 --> 20:43.150
robust dialogue and even a debate where
the evidence, the best evidence,

20:43.350 --> 20:47.190
in this case the best scientific evidence,
is made available to people.

20:47.450 --> 20:49.550
Well, surely no one questions there should
be a debate.

20:50.430 --> 20:51.390
Oh, yes, they do.

20:51.570 --> 20:52.010
They do?

20:52.150 --> 20:53.650
They say the debate has been settled.

20:54.070 --> 20:55.870
When was the debate settled?

20:56.110 --> 20:57.690
Ben, I'd like you to talk to the
scientists.

20:57.790 --> 20:59.410
You don't want to get your science from
me.

20:59.410 --> 21:01.450
Mr. Chapman claimed I.D.

21:01.510 --> 21:02.750
had nothing to do with religion.

21:03.150 --> 21:09.310
So why was my first stop Biola University,
formerly known as the Bible Institute of

21:09.310 --> 21:09.990
Los Angeles?

21:30.180 --> 21:35.010
Your own personal Jesus.

21:38.130 --> 21:40.910
Someone to hear your prayers.

21:41.310 --> 21:42.610
Someone who's there.

21:52.570 --> 21:55.250
How much money have you ever gotten from
Jerry Falwell?

21:56.110 --> 21:57.570
Uh, zero dollars.

21:57.670 --> 21:58.750
How about Pat Robertson?

21:59.250 --> 21:59.590
Zero.

21:59.930 --> 22:00.770
Are you a minister?

22:01.230 --> 22:01.470
No.

22:02.210 --> 22:02.870
Are you a priest?

22:03.310 --> 22:03.550
No.

22:03.690 --> 22:03.990
Pastor?

22:04.290 --> 22:04.490
No.

22:04.490 --> 22:05.210
Youth pastor.

22:05.590 --> 22:08.170
Oh, I did teach Sunday school once.

22:08.470 --> 22:09.730
Has this all been resolved?

22:09.910 --> 22:11.450
I mean, aren't we all Darwinists now?

22:11.790 --> 22:13.810
Except for a few cranks like you.

22:14.070 --> 22:19.070
Well, it's a funny thing that questions
that aren't properly answered don't go

22:19.070 --> 22:19.430
away.

22:20.710 --> 22:26.170
This question is loaded with all kinds of
political baggage, but one-on-one at a

22:26.170 --> 22:30.550
scientific meeting, after the third or
fourth beer, my experience has been that

22:30.550 --> 22:34.790
many evolutionary biologists will say,
yeah, this theory's got a lot of problems.

22:35.050 --> 22:38.890
So you're meaning to tell me that there
really is a debate among scientists about

22:38.890 --> 22:40.150
whether or not evolution occurred?

22:40.770 --> 22:43.050
Well, evolution is a kind of funny word.

22:43.390 --> 22:45.130
It depends on how one defines it.

22:45.770 --> 22:52.090
If it means simply change over time,
even the most rock-ribbed fundamentalist

22:52.090 --> 22:55.610
knows that the history of the Earth has
changed, that there's been change over

22:55.610 --> 22:56.090
time.

22:56.870 --> 23:00.850
If you define evolution precisely,
though, to mean the common descent of all

23:00.850 --> 23:06.290
life on Earth from a single ancestor via
undirected mutation and natural selection,

23:06.390 --> 23:08.490
that's textbook definition of
neo-Darwinism.

23:09.470 --> 23:12.630
Biologists of the first rank have real
questions.

23:12.650 --> 23:16.690
But the modern theory of intelligent
design is just microwaved creationism.

23:18.270 --> 23:19.910
I don't think that's the case.

23:20.110 --> 23:23.810
Creationism, properly understood,
begins with the Bible and says,

23:23.950 --> 23:28.150
how can I fit the Bible into the data of
science?

23:28.510 --> 23:29.970
Intelligent design doesn't do that.

23:30.370 --> 23:35.250
Intelligent design is the study of
patterns in nature that are best explained

23:35.250 --> 23:36.650
as a result of intelligence.

23:36.650 --> 23:39.830
So, intelligent designers believe that God
is the designer?

23:39.970 --> 23:40.670
Not necessarily.

23:42.290 --> 23:45.910
Intelligent design is a minimal
commitment, scientifically, to the

23:45.910 --> 23:48.510
possibility of detecting intelligent
causation.

23:49.310 --> 23:53.990
Dr. Nelson didn't sound like a crazy
person, but I still suspected I.D.

23:54.070 --> 23:56.090
was nothing but reheated creationism.

23:56.630 --> 24:00.130
My next stop didn't seem like I was going
to alleviate those fears.

24:00.130 --> 24:04.410
I didn't crawl out of the ocean,
I didn't come from no monkey.

24:05.770 --> 24:09.770
Science tends to forget evolution's just a
theory.

24:10.230 --> 24:14.170
They present it in the textbooks and on
animal TV.

24:15.150 --> 24:19.810
Pockets of fact would tell me were you
there 12 million B.C.

24:24.750 --> 24:29.010
Evolution, from an intelligent design
perspective, is perfectly acceptable if

24:29.010 --> 24:32.010
the sense is that, how did the design get
implemented?

24:32.270 --> 24:37.670
The issue is, is there real design there
and are these material mechanisms,

24:37.790 --> 24:43.030
like natural selection, are these adequate
to account for everything we see in

24:43.030 --> 24:43.530
biology?

24:43.710 --> 24:45.570
And our argument is, no, it's not.

24:45.570 --> 24:49.590
But Darwin produced all this evidence from
his travels and his studies of the

24:49.590 --> 24:51.970
Galapagos that evolution explained things.

24:52.130 --> 24:55.670
If you look at the history of science,
people often have a good idea and then

24:55.670 --> 24:56.990
they decide just to run with it.

24:57.010 --> 24:58.830
And they say, we're going to apply this
everywhere.

24:58.990 --> 25:02.330
And so Darwin takes his idea of natural
selection and says, I'm going to explain

25:02.330 --> 25:03.330
all of life with it.

25:03.610 --> 25:05.990
I mean, physics used to be Newtonian
physics.

25:06.430 --> 25:07.510
Newton was physics.

25:07.710 --> 25:10.050
And then you've got to look to Einstein,
general relativity.

25:10.610 --> 25:11.610
Newton isn't enough.

25:11.670 --> 25:15.670
I think likewise, what we're finding with
Darwin is that he had some valid insights,

25:15.890 --> 25:17.390
but it's not the whole picture.

25:17.930 --> 25:23.050
Okay, Darwinism may not be the complete
picture, but what made these guys think

25:23.050 --> 25:24.150
they had the missing pieces?

25:24.790 --> 25:29.450
I put this question to Dr. Stephen Meyer,
author of the paper that originally got

25:29.450 --> 25:31.210
Dr. Sternberg in so much trouble.

25:31.210 --> 25:35.870
It's hard to believe that this little town
is the headquarters of giant Microsoft.

25:36.850 --> 25:40.170
It's enabled Mr. Gates to become
fantastically rich.

25:40.270 --> 25:41.890
Maybe that's what Stephen Meyer is doing.

25:42.690 --> 25:46.710
Maybe this is somehow going to make him
fantastically rich.

25:47.830 --> 25:53.370
We'll pin him down like a butterfly on a
butterfly board.

25:54.410 --> 25:56.730
A butterfly on a killing board.

25:57.830 --> 25:59.710
Coffee shop straight ahead.

26:01.070 --> 26:06.290
Newton is buried in the geniuses' corner
at Westminster Abbey, right?

26:06.410 --> 26:07.350
That's correct, yeah.

26:07.910 --> 26:09.970
Darwin is also buried in Westminster
Abbey.

26:09.970 --> 26:11.350
Right, and so is Darwin.

26:11.450 --> 26:12.850
Right near each other, right?

26:13.290 --> 26:17.710
And you're here in Redmond, in a little
building without a sign, right?

26:18.790 --> 26:23.550
And you're obviously an incredibly smart
guy, but how dare you challenge someone

26:23.550 --> 26:27.750
who's buried in the geniuses' corner next
to Newton at Westminster Abbey?

26:28.390 --> 26:32.330
Well, it may seem a little cheeky,
but it's what scientists are supposed to

26:32.330 --> 26:32.570
do.

26:32.910 --> 26:38.570
When I was in Cambridge, one of my
supervisors often advised us to beware the

26:38.570 --> 26:42.350
sound of one hand clapping, which was a
way of saying if there's an argument on

26:42.350 --> 26:44.730
one side, there's bound to be an argument
on the other.

26:44.930 --> 26:50.010
And what I found in studying the structure
of the argument in The Origin of Species

26:50.010 --> 26:54.570
is that for every evidence-based argument
for one of Darwin's two key propositions,

26:55.090 --> 26:57.250
there is an evidence-based
counter-argument.

26:57.750 --> 26:58.930
But is it a debate?

26:59.070 --> 27:02.150
I mean, there's just you and a couple of
other guys in a dinky little office

27:02.150 --> 27:07.470
downtown on one side, and there's the
faculties of all the great universities of

27:07.470 --> 27:08.370
the world on the other side.

27:08.370 --> 27:11.190
Speaking with a great uniform and
authoritative voice.

27:11.790 --> 27:15.150
Well, in any case, the debate really isn't
going to be settled by numbers.

27:15.310 --> 27:17.190
It's going to be settled by the evidence
and the arguments.

27:18.510 --> 27:22.730
While I was still in Bill Gates' country,
Dr. Meyer recommended I check in with

27:22.730 --> 27:25.070
molecular biologist Jonathan Wells.

27:26.470 --> 27:27.990
What kind of names do they call you?

27:29.670 --> 27:30.090
Creationist.

27:30.350 --> 27:33.050
What do you say back to them when they say
you're a creationist?

27:33.470 --> 27:35.350
Well, I usually don't get the opportunity.

27:36.230 --> 27:38.270
What's at stake for you personally here?

27:38.390 --> 27:39.530
First of all, I love science.

27:39.650 --> 27:44.050
I think the way Darwinism corrupts the
evidence, distorts the evidence,

27:44.130 --> 27:45.150
is bad for science.

27:45.810 --> 27:48.810
Well, the other scientists would tell you
to just shut up if you love science.

27:49.890 --> 27:53.450
Because you're sort of being a bomb
thrower into science.

27:53.450 --> 27:57.950
I am upsetting the apple cart,
and I think it deserves to be upset in

27:57.950 --> 27:58.490
this case.

27:58.870 --> 27:59.150
Why?

27:59.450 --> 28:03.630
Because the evidence is being distorted to
prop up a theory that I think doesn't fit

28:03.630 --> 28:03.850
it.

28:04.410 --> 28:06.610
Was Darwinism really that bad?

28:07.510 --> 28:10.390
Perhaps a change of scenery would give me
a fresh perspective.

28:24.690 --> 28:25.630
So, let's see.

28:37.810 --> 28:39.470
Mr. Berlinski, I assume.

28:39.950 --> 28:41.030
How are you, sir?

28:42.330 --> 28:44.110
So, where are you from, originally?

28:44.510 --> 28:45.730
I was born in New York.

28:45.970 --> 28:47.650
Spent 31 years in Manhattan.

28:48.450 --> 28:50.950
And I spent a lot of time in California,
too.

28:51.470 --> 28:54.670
Tell me all the various universities where
you studied or taught.

28:55.270 --> 28:59.030
I was at Princeton, then I had a
professorship at Stanford, and then I left

28:59.030 --> 29:00.730
Stanford and I taught at Rutgers.

29:01.290 --> 29:04.190
I left Rutgers and I taught at the City
College in New York.

29:04.270 --> 29:07.390
I left the City College in New York,
I taught at the Baruch College,

29:07.470 --> 29:08.330
I taught at San Jose.

29:08.510 --> 29:09.430
What did you teach at Baruch College?

29:09.430 --> 29:10.330
Anything they wanted.

29:10.450 --> 29:10.950
Come on in.

29:11.390 --> 29:12.090
Thank you, monsieur.

29:15.550 --> 29:16.870
What an old building.

29:17.190 --> 29:18.370
It's the oldest in Paris.

29:18.550 --> 29:19.090
You're kidding.

29:19.970 --> 29:20.730
Merci, monsieur.

29:21.010 --> 29:22.150
Ah, je vous en prie, monsieur.

29:22.530 --> 29:22.890
Merci.

29:25.530 --> 29:27.030
Wow, this is fabulous.

29:28.750 --> 29:29.690
Let's put it this way.

29:29.890 --> 29:34.510
Before you can ask, is Darwinian theory
correct or not, you have to ask the

29:34.510 --> 29:38.650
preliminary question, is it clear enough
so that it could be correct?

29:39.110 --> 29:40.170
That's a very different question.

29:40.290 --> 29:45.070
One of my prevailing doctrines about
Darwinian theory is, man, that thing is

29:45.070 --> 29:45.630
just a mess.

29:45.690 --> 29:47.850
It's like looking into a room full of
smoke.

29:49.390 --> 29:54.090
Nothing in the theory is precisely,
clearly, carefully defined or delineated.

29:54.090 --> 29:58.510
It lacks all of the rigor one expects from
mathematical physics, and mathematical

29:58.510 --> 30:00.810
physics lacks all the rigor one expects
from mathematics.

30:01.270 --> 30:05.170
So we're talking about a gradual descent
down the level of intelligibility until we

30:05.170 --> 30:06.470
reach evolutionary biology.

30:06.770 --> 30:09.530
We don't even know what a species is,
for heaven's sakes.

30:09.890 --> 30:13.190
So his theory is smoke, but elegant smoke.

30:14.270 --> 30:17.450
There's a certain elegance to it,
but, you know, I think Einstein had the

30:17.450 --> 30:18.330
appropriate remark.

30:18.430 --> 30:20.070
He preferred to leave elegance to his
tailor.

30:20.070 --> 30:21.930
A room full of smoke?

30:22.450 --> 30:26.130
That certainly wasn't what I was hearing
from prominent Darwinists like Richard

30:26.130 --> 30:26.690
Dawkins.

30:27.190 --> 30:28.210
Evolution is a fact.

30:28.610 --> 30:32.950
It's a fact which is established as
securely as essentially any other fact

30:32.950 --> 30:34.590
that we have in science.

30:34.850 --> 30:39.430
Richard Dawkins is so confident that
evolution is a fact, and that therefore

30:39.430 --> 30:43.910
God doesn't exist, that he has devoted his
entire life to spreading the evolution

30:43.910 --> 30:44.570
gospel.

30:44.570 --> 30:48.970
I'm an atheist with respect to the
Judeo-Christian God, because there is not

30:48.970 --> 30:53.010
a shred of evidence in favor of the
Judeo-Christian God.

30:53.430 --> 30:56.850
It is completely right to say that since
the evidence for evolution is so

30:56.850 --> 31:01.230
absolutely, totally overwhelming,
nobody who looks at it could possibly

31:01.230 --> 31:04.310
doubt that if they were sane, and not
stupid.

31:04.590 --> 31:08.650
So the only remaining possibility is that
they're ignorant, and most people who

31:08.650 --> 31:10.610
don't believe in evolution are indeed
ignorant.

31:10.610 --> 31:13.470
But the people I spoke with weren't
ignorant.

31:13.910 --> 31:15.670
They were highly credentialed scientists.

31:16.030 --> 31:19.010
So there had to be something else going on
here.

31:19.410 --> 31:24.950
So you think the whole theory of evolution
is false, or just certain parts of it?

31:25.490 --> 31:27.910
Well, again, evolution is a slippery word.

31:28.050 --> 31:30.830
I would say minor changes within species
happen.

31:31.990 --> 31:37.250
But Darwin didn't write a book called How
Existing Species Change Over Time.

31:37.250 --> 31:40.010
He wrote a book called The Origin of
Species.

31:40.690 --> 31:46.310
He purported to show how this same process
leads to new species, in fact,

31:46.550 --> 31:47.330
every species.

31:48.290 --> 31:52.650
And the evidence for that grand claim is,
in my opinion, almost totally lacking.

31:53.090 --> 31:57.130
How does Darwin, or Darwinism,
say life began?

31:57.550 --> 31:58.390
Well, he didn't know.

31:58.590 --> 31:59.850
And in fact, nobody knows.

32:00.250 --> 32:05.250
So Darwinism, strictly defined,
starts after the origin of life,

32:05.370 --> 32:07.010
and deals only with living things.

32:07.250 --> 32:12.750
Well, how can there be a theory about life
without a theory about how life began?

32:13.690 --> 32:19.610
Well, a grand, overarching evolutionary
story, of course, does include the origin

32:19.610 --> 32:20.110
of life.

32:20.230 --> 32:23.310
But Darwin's theory doesn't begin until
you have the first cell.

32:23.510 --> 32:25.770
Well, does someone have a theory about how
life began?

32:33.230 --> 32:37.570
This is the story of a small planet in
space called Earth.

32:37.570 --> 32:43.570
For a typical Darwinian explanation of how
life originated, Dr. Wells directed me

32:43.570 --> 32:44.810
toward this documentary.

32:45.810 --> 32:50.970
The chemical elements essential for life,
hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen,

32:51.590 --> 32:52.650
were now in place.

32:53.570 --> 32:56.490
What was needed was a way of combining
them.

32:58.430 --> 33:00.830
Perhaps the energy came from lightning.

33:02.470 --> 33:03.650
Whatever it was.

33:04.670 --> 33:05.710
Excuse me?

33:05.710 --> 33:11.190
Whatever it was, energy managed to arrange
these chemical ingredients in just the

33:11.190 --> 33:11.730
right way.

33:12.430 --> 33:13.810
Whatever it was?

33:14.510 --> 33:16.770
I was hoping for something a little more
scientific.

33:17.550 --> 33:23.410
The most popular idea has been that life
emerged spontaneously from primordial

33:23.410 --> 33:23.910
soup.

33:24.430 --> 33:30.850
In 1953, Stanley Miller mixed water,
methane, ammonia, and hydrogen to simulate

33:30.850 --> 33:32.330
the early Earth's atmosphere.

33:32.330 --> 33:36.910
Then, he ran electricity through it in an
attempt to jumpstart life.

33:40.610 --> 33:42.450
It didn't work.

33:42.790 --> 33:46.950
While the initial results seemed
promising, 50 years later, most serious

33:46.950 --> 33:50.690
scientists have abandoned this approach in
favor of alternate theories.

33:51.330 --> 33:55.270
Prominent Darwinist Michael Ruse attempted
to explain one of them to me.

33:55.810 --> 33:56.970
He wasn't kidding.

33:56.970 --> 34:02.830
How did we get from an inorganic world to
the world of the cell?

34:03.210 --> 34:07.730
Well, one popular theory is that it might
have started off on the backs of crystals.

34:09.890 --> 34:11.090
My crystal ball.

34:12.790 --> 34:17.070
Molecules piggybacked on the back of
crystals forming, and that this led to

34:17.070 --> 34:18.330
more and more complex...

34:18.330 --> 34:21.010
But, of course, the nice thing about
crystals is every now and then you get

34:21.010 --> 34:26.070
mistakes, mutations, and that this opens
the way for natural selection.

34:26.070 --> 34:29.890
But at one point there was not a living
thing.

34:30.010 --> 34:30.190
Yeah.

34:30.310 --> 34:31.450
And then there was a living thing.

34:31.490 --> 34:32.270
How did that happen?

34:32.490 --> 34:34.110
Well, I've just told you.

34:34.550 --> 34:39.130
And I don't see any reason why you
shouldn't go from very simple to more and

34:39.130 --> 34:40.370
more complex to more and more complex.

34:40.370 --> 34:44.610
I don't either, but I don't know how you
get from mud to a living cell.

34:44.710 --> 34:45.410
That's my question.

34:45.590 --> 34:46.870
Yes, well, I've told you.

34:47.010 --> 34:48.230
I think it was on the back of crystals.

34:48.230 --> 34:48.490
Try one more time.

34:48.730 --> 34:49.730
On the backs of crystals.

34:49.870 --> 34:53.070
On the backs of crystals is at least one
hypothesis, yes.

34:53.070 --> 34:57.190
So that's your theory, and you think that
is more likely and less far-fetched than

34:57.190 --> 34:57.930
intelligent design?

34:57.950 --> 34:58.850
I think it is.

34:59.090 --> 35:04.590
I wouldn't put Ben Stein's money on Dr.
Roos's joyriding crystals, but it did make

35:04.590 --> 35:08.510
me wonder, what were the chances of life
arising on its own?

35:08.770 --> 35:13.250
It's been speculated that probably there
would have to be a minimum of about 250

35:13.250 --> 35:15.890
proteins to provide minimal life function.

35:15.890 --> 35:24.070
If that's really true, then I think it's
almost inconceivable that life could have

35:24.070 --> 35:26.370
happened in some simple step-by-step way.

35:26.910 --> 35:31.710
Okay, so the simplest form of life
requires at least 250 proteins to

35:31.710 --> 35:32.050
function.

35:32.670 --> 35:34.330
What's so difficult about that?

35:37.650 --> 35:40.230
Welcome to the casino of life.

35:40.370 --> 35:43.270
Who wants to spin for a chance to win?

35:43.270 --> 35:44.830
Oh, sure.

35:45.210 --> 35:46.550
I'll give it a shot.

35:46.950 --> 35:47.750
What do I win?

35:48.150 --> 35:49.950
Take a look at this.

35:51.450 --> 35:54.730
How about the world's first single-cell
organism?

35:55.050 --> 35:58.410
This perfectly aligned string of proteins
could be yours.

35:58.790 --> 36:00.330
Now, take a spin.

36:06.250 --> 36:07.410
I won!

36:08.450 --> 36:13.270
Tina, tell him how many times he needs to
do that to win the prize.

36:13.270 --> 36:14.350
250.

36:15.450 --> 36:16.790
That's right, folks.

36:16.970 --> 36:19.010
And all in the correct order.

36:19.570 --> 36:21.070
But that's impossible.

36:21.810 --> 36:24.150
We've heard that before, haven't we,
Richard?

36:25.850 --> 36:27.430
Come on, Mother Nature.

36:27.750 --> 36:28.490
Do your thing.

36:29.550 --> 36:31.430
You stupid machine!

36:31.770 --> 36:33.090
I hate you!

36:39.610 --> 36:42.510
We're talking about something that's
staggeringly improbable.

36:42.770 --> 36:46.370
Roughly one in a trillion, trillion,
trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion.

36:46.770 --> 36:50.050
Let all of life choose a million,
a trillion, a trillion, trillion.

36:50.150 --> 36:52.070
The number is essentially zero.

36:52.570 --> 36:55.790
Something has to skew nature to choose the
ones that work.

36:56.070 --> 37:00.250
So, in the game of life, it looks as if
the house always wins.

37:00.250 --> 37:06.150
Luckily, some serious scientific minds
have figured out a way to beat the odds.

37:07.570 --> 37:09.090
Directed Panspermia!

37:10.010 --> 37:14.830
When faced with the overwhelming problem
of the origin of life, Nobel Prize winner

37:14.830 --> 37:19.850
Francis Crick proposed this theory,
that life was seeded on Earth.

37:20.230 --> 37:23.350
Which basically means aliens did it.

37:26.110 --> 37:26.870
Crystals?

37:27.850 --> 37:28.470
Aliens?

37:29.250 --> 37:33.410
I thought we were talking about science,
not science fiction.

37:34.370 --> 37:37.250
We don't know what caused life to arise.

37:37.450 --> 37:41.990
Did it arise by a purely undirected
process, or did it arise by some kind of

37:41.990 --> 37:43.530
intelligent guidance or design?

37:43.730 --> 37:49.310
And the rules of science are being applied
to actually foreclose one of the two

37:49.310 --> 37:52.350
possible answers to that very fundamental
and basic and important question.

37:52.450 --> 37:57.210
So, the rules of science say we will
consider any possibility except one that

37:57.210 --> 37:57.670
is guided.

37:57.670 --> 37:58.250
Exactly.

37:58.770 --> 38:03.490
No matter how life began, on the backs of
crystals or in the test tube of some

38:03.490 --> 38:07.610
intelligent designer, everyone agrees it
started with a single cell.

38:07.890 --> 38:09.190
But what is a cell?

38:09.530 --> 38:10.650
Let me ask you a question.

38:10.790 --> 38:10.930
Yeah.

38:11.470 --> 38:16.390
Darwin wrote The Origin of Species in
1859, published it in 1859.

38:16.810 --> 38:20.130
He had an idea of the cell as being quite
simple, correct?

38:21.070 --> 38:22.130
Yeah, everybody did.

38:22.130 --> 38:29.990
Okay, if he thought of the cell as being a
Buick, what is the cell now in terms of

38:29.990 --> 38:31.410
its complexity by comparison?

38:31.590 --> 38:32.130
A galaxy.

38:32.750 --> 38:39.690
If Darwin thought a cell was, say,
a mud hut, what do we now know that a cell

38:39.690 --> 38:40.010
is?

38:40.450 --> 38:43.670
More complicated than a Saturn V.

38:44.250 --> 38:47.170
So, what is in a cell as far as we know
now?

38:47.570 --> 38:49.850
A world that Darwin never could have
imagined.

38:49.850 --> 38:54.830
I needed someone who could give me a
glimpse into this world, so we went to

38:54.830 --> 38:57.110
molecular biologist Doug Axe.

38:57.150 --> 39:03.730
Think of a cell as being a nanofactory,
a factory where, on a very small scale,

39:04.630 --> 39:07.990
digital instructions are being used to
make the components of the factory.

39:08.870 --> 39:11.870
Here we have the famous DNA double helix.

39:11.950 --> 39:16.610
You can see the two helical strands that
are intertwined and wind around each other

39:16.610 --> 39:18.090
on the outside of the molecule.

39:18.090 --> 39:22.450
This is the material that stores all of
our genetic information.

39:22.990 --> 39:27.630
In higher life forms, this will be the
equivalent of something like a gigabyte of

39:27.630 --> 39:32.090
information stored in the molecules that
form the individual chromosomes,

39:32.370 --> 39:36.730
all packed within the nucleus,
which is a tiny fraction of the entire

39:36.730 --> 39:37.490
cell size.

39:38.050 --> 39:39.410
So, what does DNA do?

39:39.810 --> 39:44.750
Well, the information in DNA ends up
providing the information for sequencing

39:44.750 --> 39:46.770
the amino acids to make protein.

39:47.530 --> 39:53.290
We have information in a one-dimensional
form that provides the information for a

39:53.290 --> 39:54.410
three-dimensional form.

41:03.980 --> 41:08.400
I'm finally just beginning to grasp the
complexity of the cell.

41:08.920 --> 41:12.760
Are there systems within the cell that go
well beyond Darwinian evolution?

41:13.320 --> 41:17.900
Some type of cellular technology that
drives adaptation, replication,

41:18.400 --> 41:19.880
quality control and repair?

41:20.500 --> 41:24.240
What if these new mechanisms have massive
design implications?

41:24.700 --> 41:26.680
Well, I say, so be it.

41:27.400 --> 41:30.800
The cell really is like nothing we've ever
seen in the physical world.

41:31.300 --> 41:32.800
That's got to be firmly grasped.

41:32.920 --> 41:36.660
That's not something we can just say,
oh, well, it's just a little bit more of

41:36.660 --> 41:37.920
the same old, same old.

41:37.960 --> 41:39.340
It's not the same old, same old.

41:39.880 --> 41:43.160
What we are finding is that there's
information that's in the cell that cannot

41:43.160 --> 41:46.700
be accounted for in terms of these
undirected material causes.

41:47.080 --> 41:47.780
It has to be.

41:47.980 --> 41:51.340
And so there's some other... so there has
to be an information source.

41:51.340 --> 41:58.600
So one of the key questions faced by
modern biology is, where do you get

41:58.600 --> 42:00.340
information from?

42:01.540 --> 42:09.560
Well, Darwin assumed that the increase in
information comes from natural selection.

42:10.380 --> 42:14.120
But natural selection reduces genetic
information.

42:14.320 --> 42:17.520
And we know this from all the genetic
population studies that we have.

42:17.820 --> 42:20.240
And where is the new genetic information
going to come from?

42:20.240 --> 42:22.140
Well, that's the big question.

42:22.780 --> 42:27.340
So when we find information in the DNA
molecule, the most likely explanation is

42:27.340 --> 42:29.140
that it, too, had an intelligent source.

42:29.280 --> 42:33.160
I mean, we need engineering principles to
understand these systems, okay?

42:33.440 --> 42:37.700
I mean, it's only because of our
advancements in nanotechnology that we can

42:37.700 --> 42:39.780
even begin to appreciate these systems.

42:40.040 --> 42:44.140
But using intelligent design didn't seem
to stop the scientists I spoke with.

42:44.240 --> 42:46.240
So why all the controversy?

42:46.240 --> 42:51.660
Suppose we find, simply as a matter of
fact, that our scientific inquiries point

42:51.660 --> 42:52.480
in one direction.

42:52.720 --> 42:54.460
Which is that there is an intelligent
creator.

42:54.840 --> 42:56.940
Why should we eliminate that from
discussion?

42:57.520 --> 42:58.340
Streng verboten?

42:58.480 --> 42:58.880
How come?

42:58.960 --> 42:59.160
Why?

42:59.300 --> 43:00.240
Streng verboten.

43:00.840 --> 43:01.520
Very good.

43:01.780 --> 43:02.860
What does streng verboten mean?

43:02.880 --> 43:03.620
Strongly forbidden.

43:03.800 --> 43:04.560
Strongly forbidden.

43:05.000 --> 43:06.300
You've got two possible hypotheses.

43:06.880 --> 43:10.560
You've got a wall through the middle of
your... through your brain, in effect,

43:10.680 --> 43:11.360
through your thinking.

43:11.500 --> 43:14.440
You say, well, you can't consider anything
on this side of the wall.

43:14.440 --> 43:19.060
Only hypotheses on this side of the wall
are permissible for consideration.

43:19.740 --> 43:21.280
What about academic freedom?

43:21.560 --> 43:23.680
I mean, can't we just talk about this?

43:24.920 --> 43:28.580
They... their reply is that science is not
a democratic process.

43:28.880 --> 43:29.360
Oh, really?

43:29.460 --> 43:31.180
And that there is a consensus view.

43:31.640 --> 43:32.420
But wait a minute, but...

43:32.420 --> 43:33.300
And that we are to subscribe to the
consensual view.

43:33.300 --> 43:37.160
But wait a second, but Darwin challenged
the consensus view, and that's how we got

43:37.160 --> 43:37.800
Darwinism.

43:38.820 --> 43:43.000
If Darwin wanted to challenge the
consensus today, how would he do it?

43:43.000 --> 43:46.400
Science isn't a hobby for rich aristocrats
anymore.

43:46.740 --> 43:48.440
It's a multi-billion dollar industry.

43:48.820 --> 43:52.840
And if you want a piece of the pie,
you've got to be a good comrade.

43:57.020 --> 43:58.220
Scientific ideas.

43:58.940 --> 44:01.080
How do we get them to you, the people?

44:02.440 --> 44:05.940
Every idea must be inspected to ensure
that it is safe.

44:06.720 --> 44:09.440
All theories must pass through a series of
checkpoints.

44:10.300 --> 44:11.740
First, the academy.

44:12.600 --> 44:16.460
Getting a controversial theory through the
academy can be dangerous.

44:17.580 --> 44:20.360
Few people know this better than
Congressman Mark Souder.

44:20.860 --> 44:25.900
He uncovered a targeted campaign,
led by individuals within the Smithsonian

44:25.900 --> 44:30.920
and the National Center for Science
Education, to destroy Dr. Sternberg's

44:30.920 --> 44:31.520
credibility.

44:32.120 --> 44:36.880
If you want peer reviews, if you want to
be published, if you want to go to

44:36.880 --> 44:41.920
respected institutions, the core view does
not tolerate dissent.

44:42.200 --> 44:46.200
There's kind of a, this is the way it is,
and anybody who is a dissenter should be

44:46.200 --> 44:46.700
squashed.

44:47.240 --> 44:49.280
Are you going to be on my side if I let
you up?

44:49.560 --> 44:50.600
Sure, Dick, sure.

44:50.820 --> 44:51.820
I'm on your side.

44:52.260 --> 44:52.980
Just let me up.

44:53.120 --> 44:54.180
I'll do anything you say.

44:54.760 --> 44:57.800
Souder isn't the only one who has
witnessed the academy's tactics.

44:57.800 --> 45:03.320
Journalist Larry Witham has seen similar
behavior during his 25 years of covering

45:03.320 --> 45:04.700
the evolution controversy.

45:05.020 --> 45:08.320
Once you're thick in science, you can't
question the paradigm.

45:08.600 --> 45:12.440
But if you want to get grants,
if you want to be elected to high

45:12.440 --> 45:18.260
positions, if you want to get awards as a
promoter of public education of science,

45:18.340 --> 45:19.720
you can't question the paradigm.

45:19.720 --> 45:23.160
People cannot be trusted to form their own
opinions.

45:23.780 --> 45:27.180
This business about open-mindedness is
nonsense.

45:28.100 --> 45:31.900
Why is the scientific establishment so
afraid of free speech?

45:32.220 --> 45:39.580
There is this fear that if one aspect of a
theory is closely scrutinized,

45:40.000 --> 45:41.360
there's going to be an unraveling.

45:41.880 --> 45:43.220
Who are you?

45:43.680 --> 45:48.120
I am the great and powerful wizard of Oz.

45:48.120 --> 45:53.220
I interviewed dozens and dozens of
scientists, and when they're amongst each

45:53.220 --> 45:59.080
other or talking to a journalist who they
trust, they'll speak about, you know,

45:59.180 --> 46:03.420
it's incredibly complex or molecular
biology is in a crisis.

46:03.720 --> 46:05.640
But publicly, they can't say that.

46:09.160 --> 46:13.220
Keeping a keen eye on the academy,
our various watchdog organizations.

46:14.160 --> 46:18.160
Listen to Eugenie Scott of the National
Center for Science Education.

46:18.800 --> 46:24.080
The NCSE has been at the heart of
virtually every evolution controversy over

46:24.080 --> 46:28.360
the past 25 years, vigorously defending
the Darwinian gospel.

46:28.360 --> 46:32.500
We have had a lot of business,
unfortunately, at NCSE in the last few

46:32.500 --> 46:38.040
years because virtually every state in
which science education standards has come

46:38.040 --> 46:43.440
up for consideration has had a big fight
about the coverage of evolution in them.

46:44.320 --> 46:48.700
NCSE was started by a group of scientists
and teachers who were very concerned

46:48.700 --> 46:53.180
because in the late 70s and early 80s,
there were a lot of attempts to pass equal

46:53.180 --> 46:55.580
time for creation science and evolution
laws.

46:55.580 --> 46:58.620
And clearly, this is something that
neither scientists nor teachers liked.

46:58.940 --> 47:01.540
It wasn't exactly, help, help,
the creationists are coming, but it's,

47:01.560 --> 47:02.820
you know, kind of along those lines.

47:03.360 --> 47:07.880
Most scientists just throw up their hands
and say, creationists, they drive me

47:07.880 --> 47:08.220
crazy.

47:08.400 --> 47:09.120
You know, you handle it.

47:09.640 --> 47:12.580
We've worked a lot with science education
organizations.

47:12.840 --> 47:17.800
The most important group we work with is
members of the faith community because the

47:17.800 --> 47:21.520
best kept secret in this controversy is
that Catholics and mainstream Protestants

47:21.520 --> 47:22.980
are okay on evolution.

47:22.980 --> 47:25.760
Are you sure about that, Eugenie?

47:26.380 --> 47:32.560
Liberal Christians have been fighting with
conservative Christians for so long that

47:32.560 --> 47:35.200
they'll side with anybody against the
fundamentalists.

47:36.080 --> 47:38.380
And Eugenie Scott says, well, welcome
over.

47:38.740 --> 47:43.080
There's a kind of science defense lobby or
an evolution defense lobby in particular.

47:43.080 --> 47:49.760
They are mostly atheists, but they are
wanting to, desperately wanting to be

47:49.760 --> 47:55.520
friendly to mainstream, sensible religious
people.

47:55.760 --> 48:01.260
And the way you do that is to tell them
that there's no incompatibility between

48:01.260 --> 48:02.760
science and religion.

48:02.940 --> 48:05.380
But is there really an incompatibility?

48:05.860 --> 48:07.940
Can't we believe in God and Darwin?

48:08.780 --> 48:14.000
Implicit in most evolutionary theory is
that either there's no God or God can't

48:14.000 --> 48:15.540
have anything, any role in it.

48:15.920 --> 48:20.860
So naturally, as many evolutionists will
say, it's the strongest engine for

48:20.860 --> 48:21.440
atheism.

48:21.680 --> 48:29.440
They called me as a witness and a lawyer
said, Dr. Dawkins, has your belief in

48:29.440 --> 48:33.000
evolution, has your study of evolution
turned you towards atheism?

48:33.000 --> 48:34.220
I would have to say yes.

48:34.980 --> 48:39.700
And that's the worst possible thing I
could say for winning that court case.

48:39.760 --> 48:44.700
So people like me are bad news for the
science lobby, the evolution lobby.

48:45.020 --> 48:49.880
By the way, I'm being a hell of a lot more
frank and honest in this interview than

48:49.880 --> 48:52.580
many people in this field would be.

48:54.200 --> 48:58.100
Working hard to keep ideas in check are
our friends in the media.

48:58.560 --> 48:59.540
Boarding paper.

49:00.260 --> 49:01.000
Paper, mister.

49:01.000 --> 49:05.740
The tendency of the media is to side with
the establishment because they inherently

49:05.740 --> 49:06.960
agree with the establishment.

49:07.340 --> 49:11.060
Eugenie Scott, my understanding is that
there is not a single peer-reviewed

49:11.060 --> 49:14.340
article out there that supports
intelligent design.

49:14.440 --> 49:15.020
Am I wrong?

49:16.040 --> 49:17.220
You are not wrong.

49:17.420 --> 49:18.180
You are correct.

49:18.580 --> 49:23.280
I believe that we get coverage,
but we always get coverage like we're the

49:23.280 --> 49:25.980
outsider, not like it's an even debate.

49:25.980 --> 49:30.840
But instead of merely reporting news,
he analyzes it, often expressing his

49:30.840 --> 49:31.720
personal opinions.

49:31.920 --> 49:37.940
We constantly deal with reporters who
refuse even to report the correct

49:37.940 --> 49:39.800
definition of intelligent design.

49:40.080 --> 49:45.680
They over and over again talk about life
is so complex, God must have done it.

49:45.900 --> 49:47.280
Just admit it, it's religion.

49:48.020 --> 49:48.900
It's religion.

49:49.360 --> 49:51.880
It's a wanton distortion of our position.

49:51.880 --> 49:54.300
I'll tell you that.

49:54.820 --> 49:55.960
I've got a hot story here.

49:56.080 --> 50:00.680
You can look at associated press stories,
and the same sentence will appear in those

50:00.680 --> 50:01.840
stories for ten years.

50:02.340 --> 50:05.440
Intelligent design says that life is too
complex.

50:06.000 --> 50:07.500
It's called a boilerplate.

50:07.940 --> 50:12.880
And the reporter never reports anymore or
gets any new ways to say it, so the public

50:12.880 --> 50:14.440
understanding never advances.

50:15.120 --> 50:19.360
But what happens if a reporter decides to
take a more balanced approach to

50:19.360 --> 50:20.380
intelligent design?

50:20.380 --> 50:26.620
There might be remarkable pressure on that
reporter not to side against the

50:26.620 --> 50:27.340
evolutionists.

50:27.860 --> 50:29.700
I thought I told you to kill that story.

50:30.000 --> 50:34.220
Few reporters have learned this better
than author and journalist Pamela Winick.

50:34.620 --> 50:38.620
When she refused to take sides in an
article she wrote about intelligent

50:38.620 --> 50:42.260
design, the Darwinists found a new
favorite target.

50:42.500 --> 50:44.560
Number one, I wasn't Christian,
I was Jewish.

50:44.960 --> 50:46.100
Number two, I wasn't religious.

50:46.100 --> 50:50.880
Number three, I was not taking a position
in favor of creationism.

50:51.020 --> 50:54.620
I was writing about intelligent design,
and it didn't matter.

50:55.020 --> 50:59.060
After I wrote that one piece, everything I
wrote on the subject was scrutinized.

50:59.520 --> 51:02.000
There were hate letters coming into the
newspaper.

51:03.160 --> 51:07.080
If you give any credence to it whatsoever,
which means just writing about it,

51:07.600 --> 51:09.920
you are just finished as a journalist.

51:10.740 --> 51:16.140
Other journalists we spoke with told
similar stories, but didn't dare appear on

51:16.140 --> 51:16.600
camera.

51:17.000 --> 51:19.960
And now the presses are ready to roll.

51:22.020 --> 51:26.080
When all other checkpoints fail,
there is always the courts.

51:31.720 --> 51:38.280
We have spent an enormous amount of time
trying to prove to the court what

51:38.280 --> 51:39.600
everybody already knows.

51:40.080 --> 51:43.520
That intelligent design is a particular
religious belief.

51:44.320 --> 51:48.620
But I thought scientific questions were
settled by the evidence, not by taking

51:48.620 --> 51:50.420
people to court and suing them.

51:50.880 --> 51:53.040
How do other countries deal with such
disputes?

51:53.860 --> 51:59.240
Dr. Marci Giertuck, a population
geneticist who now represents Poland in

51:59.240 --> 52:02.740
the European Parliament, was able to shed
some light on this topic.

52:03.000 --> 52:10.380
The censorship of teaching criticism of
evolution is, and always was, much

52:10.380 --> 52:14.460
stronger in, say, your country,
the United States, than it ever was in

52:14.460 --> 52:14.660
Poland.

52:14.880 --> 52:15.280
Why?

52:16.200 --> 52:17.020
Why would the censorship...

52:17.020 --> 52:20.000
That is because you have a political
correctness in your country.

52:20.000 --> 52:25.140
These issues are brought to court,
and the court says what you can and what

52:25.140 --> 52:25.940
you cannot teach.

52:26.440 --> 52:30.800
We want to know what you teach,
what books you use, how you teach it.

52:31.580 --> 52:36.540
We never had that sort of way of deciding
scientific issues in Poland.

52:36.640 --> 52:37.940
We never had the courts in Poland.

52:38.300 --> 52:41.820
So you are saying that as far as the
teaching of science is concerned,

52:42.320 --> 52:46.300
Poland is freer academically than the
United States.

52:46.300 --> 52:50.140
I think in this particular issue of
evolution, I think this is true.

52:50.460 --> 52:53.300
But how effective are the courts in
deciding such matters?

52:54.540 --> 52:59.340
What about the general idea that
intelligent design is doomed as a result

52:59.340 --> 53:01.700
of several recent legal setbacks?

53:01.880 --> 53:04.300
I think court cases don't decide anything.

53:04.440 --> 53:07.180
I mean, if you look at the Scopes trial,
who won that trial?

53:07.720 --> 53:08.440
It wasn't the evolutionists.

53:08.440 --> 53:12.520
I mean, the Tennessee law was upheld,
barring evolution.

53:12.960 --> 53:16.840
And yet, in the popular imagination,
Scopes is the hero, Inherit the Win.

53:16.940 --> 53:22.180
That movie, which is really bogus history
based on the Scopes trial, has carried the

53:22.180 --> 53:22.360
day.

53:22.520 --> 53:26.160
These issues go much deeper than any
decision by a judge.

53:26.500 --> 53:30.140
The evolution debate does seem to run much
deeper than the courts.

53:30.660 --> 53:32.200
Much deeper even than science.

53:32.200 --> 53:37.320
To generate this level of hostility,
ID must threaten something at the very

53:37.320 --> 53:39.460
core of the Darwinian establishment.

53:41.560 --> 53:46.000
The entire globe is today the site of a
momentous conflict.

53:47.000 --> 53:49.500
It is the challenge of ideas.

53:54.700 --> 53:55.920
I am Edward R.

53:56.000 --> 53:56.320
Murrow.

53:56.780 --> 54:01.080
For a little while, I would like to review
with you the great conflict of our times.

54:01.080 --> 54:06.000
One which demands and must get the
attention and the involvement of each one

54:06.000 --> 54:06.340
of us.

54:06.800 --> 54:16.260
This conflict over the principles of
evolution has become a religious war.

54:16.760 --> 54:20.700
It really is no longer about scientific
investigation.

54:21.220 --> 54:26.440
It is total competition with an antagonist
who is putting into it everything within

54:26.440 --> 54:27.280
his capability.

54:27.280 --> 54:32.720
The situation has reached a point where
many of evolution's top apologists have

54:32.720 --> 54:37.860
switched from defending Darwinism to
attacking religion in what they see as a

54:37.860 --> 54:40.560
bid to stamp out intelligent design at the
source.

54:41.180 --> 54:43.480
Richard Dawkins is the best example of
this.

54:43.880 --> 54:48.260
His recent book, The God Delusion,
has sold over one million copies

54:48.260 --> 54:48.700
worldwide.

54:48.700 --> 54:57.780
The God Delusion is my long expected,
long worked on full frontal attack on

54:57.780 --> 54:58.140
religion.

54:58.500 --> 55:04.220
To me, science is about trying to explain
existence and religion is about trying to

55:04.220 --> 55:05.120
explain existence.

55:05.440 --> 55:07.220
It's just that religion gets the wrong
answer.

55:08.040 --> 55:09.340
But is Dawkins correct?

55:09.800 --> 55:12.080
Are science and religion really at war?

55:12.740 --> 55:17.840
For an appraisal of this continuing and
protracted conflict, we can go to a

55:17.840 --> 55:22.080
reporter who has watched the growing
conflict with the perception of a trained

55:22.080 --> 55:23.140
military observer.

55:23.600 --> 55:28.060
Oxford professor Alistair McGrath,
author of The Dawkins Delusion,

55:28.380 --> 55:30.860
seemed like the ideal person to answer my
question.

55:31.360 --> 55:36.520
Richard Dawkins has a charming and very,
I think, interesting view of the

55:36.520 --> 55:37.760
relationship between science and religion.

55:37.760 --> 55:42.640
They're at war with each other and in the
end, one's got to win and it's going to be

55:42.640 --> 55:43.080
science.

55:43.860 --> 55:45.400
It's a very naive view.

55:45.840 --> 55:50.560
It's based on a complete historical
misrepresentation of the way science and

55:50.560 --> 55:51.360
religion have been directed.

55:51.900 --> 55:57.080
Dawkins seems to think that a scientific
description is an anti-religious argument.

55:57.680 --> 56:02.260
Describing how something happens
scientifically somehow explains it away.

56:02.260 --> 56:03.500
It doesn't.

56:03.800 --> 56:07.800
But the questions of purpose,
intentionality, the question why,

56:08.200 --> 56:10.100
still remain there on the table.

56:10.480 --> 56:13.660
And I think it's just a catastrophic
mistake to have someone like Dawkins

56:13.660 --> 56:17.660
address himself to profound issues of
theology, the existence of God,

56:17.740 --> 56:18.460
the nature of life.

56:18.560 --> 56:22.460
He hasn't committed himself to discipline
study in any relevant area of inquiry.

56:22.580 --> 56:23.740
He's a crummy philosopher.

56:23.960 --> 56:29.640
He doesn't have the rudimentary skills to
meticulously assess his own arguments.

56:29.840 --> 56:30.780
Genius guy though.

56:30.780 --> 56:32.440
Very smart guy.

56:32.700 --> 56:34.600
A little bit of a reptile, but a very
smart guy.

56:35.040 --> 56:38.520
The opposing point of view in this
conflict rests on a fundamentally

56:38.520 --> 56:40.260
different vision of man.

56:40.600 --> 56:44.420
If you have two distinguished scientists,
and in fact you can range many more on

56:44.420 --> 56:50.640
each side as you know, saying exactly
opposite things, that's telling me that

56:50.640 --> 56:55.640
the conflict is not between science and
belief in God, otherwise you'd expect all

56:55.640 --> 56:58.800
scientists to be atheists, but it's a
worldview conflict.

56:59.120 --> 57:01.580
It's between scientists who have different
worldviews.

57:01.620 --> 57:03.960
You've got two competing explanations of
the evidence.

57:04.240 --> 57:06.320
One says design, one says undirected
processes.

57:06.620 --> 57:10.880
Both of them have larger philosophical or
religious or anti-religious implications.

57:11.360 --> 57:15.620
So you can't say that one of those two
theories is scientific and the other is

57:15.620 --> 57:18.180
unscientific simply because they have
implications.

57:18.360 --> 57:19.180
Both have implications.

57:19.360 --> 57:22.400
People who tell you, for example,
that science tells you all you need to

57:22.400 --> 57:25.260
know about the world, or that science
tells you that religion is all wrong,

57:25.580 --> 57:28.880
or science tells you that there is no God,
those people aren't telling you scientific

57:28.880 --> 57:29.380
things.

57:29.660 --> 57:33.400
They are saying metaphysical things,
and they have to defend their positions

57:33.400 --> 57:34.600
for metaphysical reasons.

57:34.960 --> 57:41.740
What is being presented to the public is,
first comes the science, and then comes

57:41.740 --> 57:42.560
the worldview.

57:43.460 --> 57:47.500
I would want to argue that that may not be
the case, that it may actually be the

57:47.500 --> 57:48.180
other way around.

57:48.180 --> 57:54.480
But the worldview comes first and is
influencing the interpretation of science.

57:55.220 --> 58:00.340
My deep regret is some people are so
deeply entrenched in their own worldviews

58:00.340 --> 58:03.820
that they will simply not countenance
alternatives.

58:05.640 --> 58:09.340
I'm actually a person of the left,
and not even a particularly religious

58:09.340 --> 58:09.700
person.

58:09.800 --> 58:11.080
I think of myself as kind of humanist.

58:11.520 --> 58:15.660
And I think it's sending a very bad
message to religious people who are

58:15.660 --> 58:19.800
interested in science, that in some sense,
in order to do science credibly,

58:19.880 --> 58:21.780
they have to leave their religious beliefs
at the door.

58:22.140 --> 58:25.340
The founders of early modern science,
Sir Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle,

58:25.480 --> 58:31.820
Johannes Kepler, Galileo, most of these
early scientists all not only believed in

58:31.820 --> 58:35.520
God, but they thought their belief in God
actually made it easier to do science.

58:35.840 --> 58:38.920
You can be religiously motivated,
and you can do good science.

58:39.140 --> 58:42.240
And they have more often gone together
than not gone together.

58:42.240 --> 58:48.120
Admitting our biases is the best way
towards rational discussion, which I would

58:48.120 --> 58:48.480
welcome.

58:49.100 --> 58:54.100
Rational debate is a nice thought,
but it's nearly impossible in the current

58:54.100 --> 58:54.540
climate.

58:55.220 --> 58:59.840
I'd seen the chilling effect that this
unquestioning devotion to Darwinism has

58:59.840 --> 59:00.860
had on science.

59:01.520 --> 59:03.380
But were there other consequences?

59:06.400 --> 59:14.720
No gods, no life after death, no ultimate
foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning

59:14.720 --> 59:21.460
in life, and no human free will,
are all deeply connected to an

59:21.460 --> 59:23.320
evolutionary perspective.

59:23.820 --> 59:26.160
You're here today, and you're gone
tomorrow.

59:26.480 --> 59:27.960
And that's all there is to it.

59:27.960 --> 59:33.940
Dr. Will Provine, professor of the history
of biology at Cornell University,

59:34.480 --> 59:38.860
gave us another disturbing glimpse into
where Darwinism can lead.

59:39.120 --> 59:44.300
Oh, I was a Christian, but I never heard
anything about evolution because it was

59:44.300 --> 59:46.560
illegal to teach it in Tennessee.

59:48.260 --> 59:52.240
Dr. Provine's first biology professor
changed all that.

59:52.540 --> 59:57.140
He started talking about evolution as if
it had no design in it whatsoever.

59:58.040 --> 01:00:01.440
And I came up to him and I said,
you've left out the most important part.

01:00:01.580 --> 01:00:05.860
And he said, if you feel the same way at
the end of one quarter, I want you to

01:00:05.860 --> 01:00:10.980
stand up in front of the students in this
class and tell them this deep lack in

01:00:10.980 --> 01:00:11.520
evolution.

01:00:12.060 --> 01:00:19.140
And I read that book so carefully,
I could find no sign of there being any

01:00:19.140 --> 01:00:21.920
design whatsoever in evolution.

01:00:22.300 --> 01:00:26.580
And I immediately began to doubt the
existence of the deity.

01:00:28.620 --> 01:00:32.120
But it starts by giving up an active
deity.

01:00:32.740 --> 01:00:36.080
Then it gives up the hope that there's any
life after death.

01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:39.820
When you give those two up, the rest of it
follows fairly easily.

01:00:40.640 --> 01:00:43.800
You give up the hope that there's an
imminent morality.

01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:47.440
And finally, there's no human free will.

01:00:47.880 --> 01:00:53.680
If you believe in evolution, you can't
hope for there being any free will.

01:00:53.680 --> 01:01:00.320
There's no hope whatsoever of there being
any deep meaning in human life.

01:01:00.420 --> 01:01:03.120
We live, we die, and we're gone.

01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:05.420
We're absolutely gone when we die.

01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:09.280
Dr. Provine is no stranger to the prospect
of death.

01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:13.940
Nearly a decade ago, he was diagnosed with
a large brain tumor.

01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:18.080
Let's suppose my tumor comes back,
as it almost certainly will.

01:01:18.080 --> 01:01:24.200
Well, I'm not going to sit around like my
older brother did last year, and he was

01:01:24.200 --> 01:01:26.920
dying of ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease.

01:01:27.260 --> 01:01:31.520
He wanted desperately to die, but we
couldn't help him die.

01:01:32.040 --> 01:01:33.620
I don't want to die like that.

01:01:33.940 --> 01:01:36.660
I'm going to shoot myself in the head long
before then.

01:01:37.120 --> 01:01:38.540
I'm going to do something different.

01:01:39.680 --> 01:01:45.080
I hope these are empty words for my
friend, Dr. Provine, because shortly after

01:01:45.080 --> 01:01:48.620
this interview was recorded, he learned
his brain tumor had returned.

01:01:49.460 --> 01:01:52.660
I don't feel one bit bad about holding the
views that I do.

01:01:52.780 --> 01:01:58.220
There's not anything in the views I hold
that makes me, oh, I wish I had free will,

01:01:58.360 --> 01:02:00.580
or oh, I wish there were a God.

01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:03.280
I don't ever, ever wish that.

01:02:04.140 --> 01:02:08.480
Dr. Provine's deconversion story was
typical amongst the Darwinists we

01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:09.040
interviewed.

01:02:09.580 --> 01:02:10.660
Biologist P.Z.

01:02:10.780 --> 01:02:16.680
Myers, who runs the pro-Darwin,
anti-religion blog Ferengula, says science

01:02:16.680 --> 01:02:18.380
eroded his faith as well.

01:02:18.780 --> 01:02:20.060
I never hated religion.

01:02:20.240 --> 01:02:23.720
I found religion quite comfortable,
and I liked the people in it.

01:02:25.020 --> 01:02:29.840
What led to the atheism was learning more
about science, learning more about the

01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:32.540
natural world, and seeing these horrible
conflicts with religion.

01:02:33.440 --> 01:02:37.720
And it was then, when I discovered
evolution, when I discovered Darwinism,

01:02:38.020 --> 01:02:42.600
that I realized there's this magnificently
elegant, stunningly elegant explanation,

01:02:43.300 --> 01:02:45.500
which I didn't quite understand to begin
with.

01:02:45.560 --> 01:02:50.120
When I did understand it, then that
finally killed off my remaining religious

01:02:50.120 --> 01:02:50.500
faith.

01:02:50.500 --> 01:02:55.100
After hearing these stories, I was not
surprised to discover that most

01:02:55.100 --> 01:02:58.900
evolutionary biologists share Professor
Dawkins' views.

01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:04.480
It appears Darwinism does lead to atheism,
despite what Eugenie Scott would have us

01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:04.920
believe.

01:03:05.300 --> 01:03:11.520
And if you separate out the ethical
message from religion, what have you got

01:03:11.520 --> 01:03:11.800
left?

01:03:13.340 --> 01:03:16.100
You've got a bunch of fairy tales,
right?

01:03:16.100 --> 01:03:24.080
I think that God is about as unlikely as
fairies, angels, hobgoblins, etc.

01:03:25.160 --> 01:03:28.540
Religion, I mean, it's just fantasy,
basically.

01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:32.640
It's completely empty of any explanatory
content.

01:03:34.100 --> 01:03:35.580
And it's evil as well.

01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:41.660
Half the people in this country think that
drugs is what you have to regulate to make

01:03:41.660 --> 01:03:45.300
us safer, and half the people think guns,
that's what you've got to regulate to make

01:03:45.300 --> 01:03:45.720
us safer.

01:03:45.720 --> 01:03:49.220
But I always think, if you're going to
regulate one thing that has the most

01:03:49.220 --> 01:03:52.540
potential to cause death and destruction,
religion.

01:03:52.940 --> 01:03:54.300
You've got to start with religion.

01:03:57.160 --> 01:04:03.440
Religion is an idea that gives some people
comfort, and we don't want to take it away

01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:03.660
from them.

01:04:03.740 --> 01:04:04.800
It's like knitting.

01:04:05.020 --> 01:04:06.080
People like to knit.

01:04:06.920 --> 01:04:08.920
We're not going to take their knitting
needles away.

01:04:08.980 --> 01:04:10.340
We're not going to take away their
churches.

01:04:10.340 --> 01:04:16.300
But what we have to do is get it to a
place where religion is treated at the

01:04:16.300 --> 01:04:17.420
level it should be treated.

01:04:17.540 --> 01:04:22.060
That is, something fun that people get
together and do on the weekend,

01:04:22.620 --> 01:04:27.460
and really doesn't affect their life as
much as it has been so far.

01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:31.560
So, what would the world look like if Dr.
Myers got his wish?

01:04:31.740 --> 01:04:35.500
Greater science literacy, which is going
to lead to the erosion of religion.

01:04:35.500 --> 01:04:38.380
And then we'll get this nice positive
feedback mechanism going, where as

01:04:38.380 --> 01:04:41.200
religion slowly fades away, we get more
and more science to replace it.

01:04:41.720 --> 01:04:44.480
And that will displace more and more
religion, which will allow more and more

01:04:44.480 --> 01:04:44.960
science in.

01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:50.540
And we'll eventually get to that point
where religion has taken that appropriate

01:04:50.540 --> 01:04:54.040
place as side dish, rather than the main
course.

01:04:54.840 --> 01:04:59.420
But will eradicating religion really lead
to a modern utopia?

01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:02.040
Hmm.

01:05:03.540 --> 01:05:05.800
Let me try to imagine that.

01:05:06.300 --> 01:05:08.540
And let's let history be our guide.

01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:19.560
In part, I think Matthew Arnold put his
hands on it when he spoke about the

01:05:19.560 --> 01:05:20.780
withdrawal of faith.

01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:26.040
There is a connection between a society
that has at least a minimal commitment to

01:05:26.040 --> 01:05:31.780
certain kinds of transcendental values,
and what human beings permit themselves to

01:05:31.780 --> 01:05:32.840
do one to the other.

01:05:33.560 --> 01:05:39.360
That got me thinking, what other societies
have used Darwinism to trump all other

01:05:39.360 --> 01:05:40.980
authorities, including religion?

01:05:41.600 --> 01:05:45.320
As a Jew, my mind leapt to one regime in
particular.

01:05:45.600 --> 01:05:50.200
The connection between Hitler and Darwin
is, of course, historically a difficult

01:05:50.200 --> 01:05:53.040
connection, because they were separated by
a good many years.

01:05:53.120 --> 01:05:54.360
One was English, one was German.

01:05:55.180 --> 01:05:59.820
Nonetheless, if you open Mein Kampf and
read it, especially if you can read it in

01:05:59.820 --> 01:06:05.720
German, the correspondence between
Darwinian ideas and Nazi ideas just leaps

01:06:05.720 --> 01:06:06.480
from the page.

01:06:06.780 --> 01:06:09.100
Of course, you have to add every
historical caution.

01:06:09.340 --> 01:06:11.640
Not everyone who read Darwin became a
Nazi.

01:06:11.780 --> 01:06:12.600
Obviously not.

01:06:12.660 --> 01:06:13.920
No one is making that case.

01:06:14.780 --> 01:06:20.860
Darwinism is not a sufficient condition
for a phenomenon like Nazism, but I think

01:06:20.860 --> 01:06:22.500
it's certainly a necessary one.

01:06:23.580 --> 01:06:27.040
This was a connection I had to explore
personally.

01:06:27.700 --> 01:06:28.260
Officers

01:06:42.390 --> 01:06:45.490
arrive at a Nazi institution seized by
First Army troops.

01:06:45.930 --> 01:06:49.430
Under the guise of an insane asylum,
this has been the headquarters for the

01:06:49.430 --> 01:06:50.270
systematic murder.

01:06:55.030 --> 01:06:56.710
So what is this place?

01:06:57.130 --> 01:07:01.590
During the Second World War, 15,000 people
were killed here.

01:07:01.990 --> 01:07:02.850
Why were they killed?

01:07:03.670 --> 01:07:06.710
They were killed because they were people
with handicaps.

01:07:06.970 --> 01:07:07.910
Why kill them?

01:07:08.010 --> 01:07:09.070
What's the point of killing them?

01:07:09.070 --> 01:07:13.770
People who were not able to work,
people who were not able to live by

01:07:13.770 --> 01:07:16.170
themselves, that they were useless eaters.

01:07:16.570 --> 01:07:17.430
Useless eaters.

01:07:17.570 --> 01:07:19.250
And life unworthy of living.

01:07:20.730 --> 01:07:24.810
This idea grew up in the 20s, so long
before National Socialism.

01:07:25.030 --> 01:07:32.510
Biologists, anthropologists, they thought
that maybe mankind could, or the

01:07:32.510 --> 01:07:35.810
government could interfere into the growth
of the population.

01:07:36.150 --> 01:07:36.630
I see.

01:07:36.630 --> 01:07:38.810
And they had the utopia.

01:07:39.090 --> 01:07:39.650
Utopia.

01:07:39.750 --> 01:07:44.430
Utopia, that they would have a society
without illness and without handicap.

01:08:09.110 --> 01:08:11.730
So this was a Darwinian concept.

01:08:12.070 --> 01:08:12.190
Yes.

01:08:12.710 --> 01:08:15.490
And also a Malthusian concept,
very much Malthusian.

01:08:16.350 --> 01:08:16.870
Malthusian.

01:08:16.990 --> 01:08:19.870
Thomas Malthus, who said that there was a
shortage of resources.

01:08:21.030 --> 01:08:22.630
English philosopher, so there was a
shortage.

01:08:22.630 --> 01:08:25.310
Yes, but the Nazi, they relied on Darwin.

01:08:25.510 --> 01:08:26.150
They relied on Darwin.

01:08:26.150 --> 01:08:27.730
Yes, Darwin and German scientists.

01:08:31.030 --> 01:08:37.030
Patients were led down this hallway to
Nazi doctors who decided who would live

01:08:37.030 --> 01:08:38.450
and who would die.

01:08:39.310 --> 01:08:42.730
They were accompanied by 15 nurses.

01:08:45.370 --> 01:08:46.130
Nurses, yes.

01:08:46.130 --> 01:08:47.950
Nurses, male and female nurses.

01:08:48.290 --> 01:08:50.870
So nurses were helping lead them to their
doom.

01:08:51.030 --> 01:08:51.270
Yes.

01:09:11.990 --> 01:09:14.670
So were the prisoners told they were
taking a shower?

01:09:15.010 --> 01:09:17.170
Yes, they were taking a shower and here
was one or two showers.

01:09:18.030 --> 01:09:20.810
So how many people were brought into this
room?

01:09:21.150 --> 01:09:22.270
60 to 70.

01:09:31.530 --> 01:09:32.810
So what is this?

01:09:33.270 --> 01:09:34.790
This is the dissection table.

01:09:35.710 --> 01:09:40.090
Do you ever think to yourself,
the sane ones were the ones lying here

01:09:40.090 --> 01:09:41.190
having their brains removed?

01:09:41.190 --> 01:09:44.490
The insane one was Dr. Gorgas and all the
other people.

01:09:44.870 --> 01:09:49.670
No, no, I don't think that because I think
those people who killed here, they were

01:09:49.670 --> 01:09:52.170
very sane because they had their purposes.

01:09:52.870 --> 01:09:53.550
They had purposes.

01:09:53.930 --> 01:09:55.650
Yes, I don't think they were insane.

01:10:06.150 --> 01:10:08.130
They had two crematory ovens.

01:10:08.170 --> 01:10:08.670
I see.

01:10:08.770 --> 01:10:10.390
And they killed about 70 people.

01:10:10.710 --> 01:10:11.010
A day.

01:10:11.030 --> 01:10:13.310
So a day, so they had...

01:10:13.310 --> 01:10:14.650
That's barely enough time.

01:10:14.650 --> 01:10:20.010
They only killed from Monday to Friday,
so...

01:10:20.010 --> 01:10:23.010
Because the people who were doing the
killing needed to have the weekend off.

01:10:23.770 --> 01:10:26.270
If you met Dr. Gorgas today, what would
you say to him?

01:10:28.030 --> 01:10:28.910
I don't know.

01:10:29.890 --> 01:10:35.190
I don't think that it's my role to tell
him something.

01:10:37.190 --> 01:10:41.390
It's difficult to describe how it felt to
walk through such a haunting place,

01:10:41.390 --> 01:10:47.990
to know that these cold stone and tile
walls were the last things the victims of

01:10:47.990 --> 01:10:49.170
Hadamar ever saw.

01:10:51.330 --> 01:10:56.870
I wanted to explore this connection
further, so I met with the author of From

01:10:56.870 --> 01:10:59.670
Darwin to Hitler, Dr. Richard Weikart.

01:11:00.770 --> 01:11:05.650
Hitler and many of the physicians that
carried out this program were very

01:11:05.650 --> 01:11:10.010
fanatical Darwinists, and particularly
wanted to apply Darwinism to society.

01:11:10.010 --> 01:11:16.170
What we want from the German youth of the
future is something different from what

01:11:16.170 --> 01:11:17.150
the past wanted.

01:11:18.630 --> 01:11:21.190
We need a new human being.

01:11:22.750 --> 01:11:30.870
So that our people don't have the typical
degenerative effects of this new era.

01:11:31.510 --> 01:11:36.430
Many of these people in the 19-teens,
1920s, who were putting forward some of

01:11:36.430 --> 01:11:40.550
these ideas about racism, were considered
the leading scientists.

01:11:41.070 --> 01:11:44.830
These were Darwinists who were taken
seriously by fellow academics.

01:11:45.330 --> 01:11:47.030
It's not to say that all academics
believed it.

01:11:47.210 --> 01:11:49.930
These leading academics, were there any of
them who were Americans?

01:11:50.570 --> 01:11:54.050
There were plenty of Americans who were
saying similar kinds of things.

01:11:54.630 --> 01:11:59.830
Not only were Americans saying such
things, they were pioneers in this

01:11:59.830 --> 01:12:02.570
fledgling science known as eugenics.

01:12:02.570 --> 01:12:07.910
They thought they could help evolution
along by sterilizing the so-called

01:12:07.910 --> 01:12:11.330
feeble-minded, and prohibiting them from
getting married.

01:12:12.950 --> 01:12:17.950
Physicians who are aware of the history of
20th century American medicine,

01:12:18.190 --> 01:12:22.790
harbor some bad feelings towards
Darwinists because of eugenics.

01:12:23.530 --> 01:12:29.530
And eugenics, which was an attempt to
breed human beings, it was the darkest

01:12:29.530 --> 01:12:31.210
chapter of American medicine ever.

01:12:31.210 --> 01:12:36.130
There were 50,000 people involuntarily
sterilized because they were deemed unfit

01:12:36.130 --> 01:12:37.310
to breed, basically.

01:12:41.230 --> 01:12:42.810
Eugenics isn't just history.

01:12:43.150 --> 01:12:45.690
The spirit of the movement lives on today.

01:12:48.750 --> 01:12:50.970
Margaret Sanger was the head of Planned
Parenthood.

01:12:51.490 --> 01:12:54.210
She was very fanatical in her promotion of
eugenics.

01:12:54.350 --> 01:12:58.610
In fact, Planned Parenthood was all about
birth control for the impoverished and

01:12:58.610 --> 01:13:01.430
lower classes to try to help improve the
species.

01:13:07.400 --> 01:13:13.360
From Hadamar, I traveled with Dr. Weikart
to Dachau, where the Nazis applied the

01:13:13.360 --> 01:13:17.000
ideas of eugenics on a massive mechanistic
scale.

01:13:19.500 --> 01:13:25.440
When it was a fully functioning
concentration camp, what was the purpose

01:13:25.440 --> 01:13:25.800
of it?

01:13:25.900 --> 01:13:28.280
I mean, part of it was to repress
political enemies.

01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:30.620
What was the rest of the purpose?

01:13:30.620 --> 01:13:34.180
Well, beyond the repression of the
political enemies, which was its purpose

01:13:34.180 --> 01:13:38.760
at the very beginning, then later on it
transformed into repressing racial

01:13:38.760 --> 01:13:39.360
enemies.

01:13:39.620 --> 01:13:43.060
And sometimes those categories overlapped
because sometimes they thought that these

01:13:43.060 --> 01:13:46.760
people were political enemies because they
were inferior biologically.

01:13:47.080 --> 01:13:50.900
The war itself was part of the Darwinian
struggle for existence for Hitler.

01:13:51.380 --> 01:13:57.200
And he saw the extermination of the Jews
as one of those fronts to this warfare

01:13:57.200 --> 01:14:00.180
going on as this Darwinian struggle for
existence.

01:14:00.180 --> 01:14:02.360
Would you say that Hitler was insane?

01:14:03.200 --> 01:14:04.380
No, I wouldn't say he was insane.

01:14:04.500 --> 01:14:09.660
I think he had imbibed some very,
very wrong ideas.

01:14:10.340 --> 01:14:18.920
And in fact, I think he took the logic of
them in certain ways that brought him to

01:14:18.920 --> 01:14:22.060
take very radical solutions for them.

01:14:24.400 --> 01:14:25.720
Would you say he was evil?

01:14:26.220 --> 01:14:27.440
Oh, I'd definitely say he was evil.

01:14:27.640 --> 01:14:28.820
Is there such a thing as evil?

01:14:29.000 --> 01:14:29.860
Oh, I think there is.

01:14:29.860 --> 01:14:31.500
And is there such a thing as good?

01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:32.520
Oh, definitely.

01:14:35.140 --> 01:14:37.980
And evil can sometimes be rationalized as
science.

01:14:38.480 --> 01:14:38.880
Oh, sure.

01:14:39.620 --> 01:14:42.980
And evil can sometimes be rationalized...
when it's rationalized as science,

01:14:43.040 --> 01:14:45.080
and I think when it's rationalized in this
particular way in particular, I think

01:14:45.080 --> 01:14:46.280
Hitler thought he was doing good.

01:14:46.780 --> 01:14:47.700
He thought he was doing good.

01:14:48.020 --> 01:14:48.680
Oh, I think so.

01:14:49.040 --> 01:14:53.900
He thought he was benefiting humanity by
driving evolution forward and creating a

01:14:53.900 --> 01:14:54.560
better humanity.

01:15:02.850 --> 01:15:08.510
Before leaving Dachau, I stopped by the
memorial commemorating the thousands of

01:15:08.510 --> 01:15:12.150
Jews who were killed there in excruciating
conditions.

01:15:14.430 --> 01:15:19.230
I know that Darwinism does not
automatically equate to Nazism,

01:15:19.810 --> 01:15:24.370
but if Darwinism inspired and justified
such horrific events in the past,

01:15:24.930 --> 01:15:28.130
could it be used to rationalize similar
initiatives today?

01:15:28.790 --> 01:15:31.590
There's a good German expression,
So fängt es immer ein.

01:15:31.890 --> 01:15:33.870
I mean, it always begins in the same way.

01:15:34.510 --> 01:15:37.790
Something to remember in the context of
United States discussions of euthanasia

01:15:37.790 --> 01:15:38.250
and abortion.

01:15:38.650 --> 01:15:39.990
It always begins in the same way.

01:15:40.070 --> 01:15:43.770
There seems to be an excellent argument
for getting rid of useless people by

01:15:43.770 --> 01:15:44.270
killing them.

01:15:44.710 --> 01:15:47.470
Or at least it seems excellent to the
people advancing the argument.

01:15:47.750 --> 01:15:51.670
It's a love affair with death and,
you know, the euthanasia and this movement

01:15:51.670 --> 01:15:53.410
going on, which I find appalling.

01:15:53.410 --> 01:15:57.550
And the idea is that, you know,
immediately rid our society of anybody who

01:15:57.550 --> 01:16:01.810
might be a drain and think of people in
economic terms.

01:16:01.890 --> 01:16:04.450
And I think that's where some of the
Darwin fits in, actually.

01:16:04.670 --> 01:16:06.490
It's just a devaluing of human life.

01:16:06.770 --> 01:16:10.770
First of all, if you take seriously that
evolution has to do with, you know,

01:16:10.790 --> 01:16:15.330
the transition of life forms and that life
and death are just natural processes,

01:16:15.650 --> 01:16:18.650
then one gets to be liberal about abortion
and euthanasia.

01:16:18.650 --> 01:16:23.910
All of those kinds of ideas seem to me
follow very naturally from a Darwinian

01:16:23.910 --> 01:16:24.430
perspective.

01:16:24.850 --> 01:16:27.170
A deprivileging of human beings,
basically.

01:16:27.730 --> 01:16:31.910
And I think that people who want to
endorse Darwinism have to sort of take

01:16:31.910 --> 01:16:33.930
this kind of viewpoint very seriously.

01:16:34.390 --> 01:16:39.850
And when we see an elite, and it is an
elite, an elite that controls essentially

01:16:39.850 --> 01:16:44.630
all the research money in science,
saying there is no such thing as moral

01:16:44.630 --> 01:16:47.890
truth, science will not be related to
religion.

01:16:47.890 --> 01:16:51.990
I mean, it's essentially official policy
of the National Academy of Science that

01:16:51.990 --> 01:16:54.250
religion and science will not be related.

01:16:54.730 --> 01:16:58.250
I mean, hey, you know, that cuts off a lot
of debate, doesn't it?

01:16:58.390 --> 01:17:00.170
What's going to happen if this doesn't
change?

01:17:00.950 --> 01:17:02.810
Well, I think we're watching it happen,
aren't we?

01:17:03.630 --> 01:17:05.050
I needed time to think.

01:17:05.710 --> 01:17:08.090
So I traveled to the birthplace of this
idea.

01:18:03.520 --> 01:18:08.100
With savages, the weak in body or mind are
soon eliminated.

01:18:08.100 --> 01:18:14.020
We civilized men, on the other hand,
do our utmost to check the process of

01:18:14.020 --> 01:18:14.540
elimination.

01:18:15.400 --> 01:18:19.100
We build asylums for the imbecile,
the maimed, and the sick.

01:18:19.700 --> 01:18:23.440
Thus, the weak members of civilized
societies propagate their kind.

01:18:24.220 --> 01:18:28.700
No one who has attended to the breeding of
domestic animals will doubt that this must

01:18:28.700 --> 01:18:31.060
be highly injurious to the race of man.

01:18:31.920 --> 01:18:36.320
Hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow
his worst animals to breed.

01:18:37.280 --> 01:18:42.040
Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man,
1871.

01:20:23.280 --> 01:20:27.280
Throughout the Cold War in Germany,
there was this wall erected to keep ideas

01:20:27.280 --> 01:20:27.660
out.

01:20:28.020 --> 01:20:31.860
It was erected by people who held an
ideology, that were afraid of a

01:20:31.860 --> 01:20:36.120
competition from other ideas that would
come into their society.

01:20:36.120 --> 01:20:40.920
And what we're seeing happening in science
today is very much like that.

01:20:41.560 --> 01:20:45.480
But I think that's just a strategy for
protecting a failing ideology from

01:20:45.480 --> 01:20:46.060
competition.

01:20:47.300 --> 01:20:51.080
America didn't become the great nation
that it is by suppressing ideas.

01:20:51.480 --> 01:20:55.560
It progressed by allowing freedom of
speech and freedom of inquiry.

01:20:57.080 --> 01:21:01.440
Thomas Jefferson got it right when he
wrote, We hold these truths to be

01:21:01.440 --> 01:21:06.060
self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their

01:21:06.060 --> 01:21:11.360
creator with certain unalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty,

01:21:11.620 --> 01:21:12.960
and the pursuit of happiness.

01:21:13.760 --> 01:21:18.800
Hundreds of thousands of Americans have
given their lives to protect these values,

01:21:19.260 --> 01:21:21.240
but now they're under threat once again.

01:21:22.060 --> 01:21:24.780
It wasn't just scientists who were being
expelled.

01:21:25.200 --> 01:21:30.640
It was freedom itself, the very foundation
of the American dream, the very foundation

01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:31.460
of America.

01:21:32.200 --> 01:21:36.180
If we allowed freedom to be expelled in
science, where would it end?

01:21:37.200 --> 01:21:42.340
The Darwinian establishment is so massive
and so entrenched, it appears

01:21:42.340 --> 01:21:43.200
impenetrable.

01:21:43.720 --> 01:21:47.600
I couldn't bring it down myself,
but I could at least confront those who

01:21:47.600 --> 01:21:49.320
had expelled the scientists I'd met.

01:21:52.130 --> 01:21:55.850
What would you say, if you had Eugenie
Scott sitting next to you, what would you

01:21:55.850 --> 01:21:56.270
say to her?

01:21:56.890 --> 01:22:04.830
I would ask her, by what authority does
she and those like her presume to declare

01:22:04.830 --> 01:22:06.350
what is and is not science?

01:22:07.470 --> 01:22:09.570
You know, he's sort of made himself martyr
of the day.

01:22:09.910 --> 01:22:12.730
They've gotten a lot of mileage out of,
you know, poor Rick Sternberg.

01:22:13.950 --> 01:22:19.710
We got lip service from the leadership of
the Smithsonian, but I didn't feel they

01:22:19.710 --> 01:22:20.330
ever followed through.

01:22:21.030 --> 01:22:25.530
We went into the Smithsonian looking for
answers, but we ran into the same stone

01:22:25.530 --> 01:22:26.950
wall as Congressman Souter.

01:22:36.550 --> 01:22:40.530
He said, nonetheless, you have to be
disciplined, and I lost my job.

01:22:40.530 --> 01:22:45.530
We did get an interview with a spokesman
from George Mason, but it was impossible

01:22:45.530 --> 01:22:47.030
to knock him off his script.

01:22:48.090 --> 01:22:49.610
Her contract was not renewed.

01:22:50.090 --> 01:22:54.650
It was simply not renewing her contract,
which she satisfied.

01:22:55.590 --> 01:23:02.410
Her contract was not renewed, had nothing
to do with the controversy of that topic

01:23:02.410 --> 01:23:03.650
of intelligent design.

01:23:05.770 --> 01:23:11.550
I have never been treated like this in my
about 30 years in academia.

01:23:12.470 --> 01:23:15.530
We received a similar reception at Baylor
University.

01:23:16.210 --> 01:23:19.730
They refused to admit that what had
happened to Dr. Marks had anything to do

01:23:19.730 --> 01:23:20.330
with I.D.

01:23:21.410 --> 01:23:26.170
Certainly the conversations I've had,
this has not, the intelligent design

01:23:26.170 --> 01:23:28.730
situation has not been the thrust of the
conversation.

01:23:29.070 --> 01:23:32.730
It's a procedural issue, and that's the
way we dealt with it.

01:23:33.310 --> 01:23:38.710
Funny, that's not how Dean Kelly put
things in his original email to Dr. Marks.

01:23:46.950 --> 01:23:52.070
The questions that I ask in my intelligent
design research are perfectly legitimate

01:23:52.070 --> 01:23:53.070
scientific questions.

01:23:53.450 --> 01:23:57.490
At least the top guns at Iowa State were
willing to own up to their actions.

01:23:57.890 --> 01:24:02.510
What we wanted to stop is the use of the
name of ISU to validate intelligent

01:24:02.510 --> 01:24:04.950
design, and we did succeed.

01:24:05.330 --> 01:24:06.970
I really think a lot of Guglielmo.

01:24:07.110 --> 01:24:07.870
He's a great guy.

01:24:08.470 --> 01:24:10.090
So, I mean, that's why I'm kind of
disappointed.

01:24:10.090 --> 01:24:12.030
All right, that he should have just left
this alone.

01:24:12.370 --> 01:24:14.150
In my opinion, should have just left it
alone.

01:24:14.450 --> 01:24:18.750
Dr. Halpton elaborated further on his
great regard for Gonzales.

01:24:19.030 --> 01:24:22.010
This is quoting an email from you to Mr.
Avalos.

01:24:22.490 --> 01:24:29.190
You say, sometimes it is just best to
ignore idiots, in reference to Guillermo.

01:24:30.050 --> 01:24:34.370
And then the religious nutcases should be
challenged at every opportunity.

01:24:34.370 --> 01:24:37.370
Yeah, because, for example, you...

01:24:40.070 --> 01:24:43.910
In that case, I'm thinking more of,
say, the creationist crowd, who claims

01:24:43.910 --> 01:24:47.650
that God put all the animals on an ark and
that's it.

01:24:47.950 --> 01:24:48.230
All right?

01:24:48.250 --> 01:24:50.030
That's where all of our animals came from
today.

01:24:50.250 --> 01:24:50.870
That's crazy.

01:24:51.290 --> 01:24:51.550
Okay?

01:24:51.730 --> 01:24:54.290
You shouldn't be insulting even children
with that kind of thing.

01:24:54.710 --> 01:24:56.130
So, these are the idiots, all right?

01:24:56.290 --> 01:24:57.450
They've always been around.

01:24:58.130 --> 01:24:59.130
They've always been around.

01:25:00.070 --> 01:25:04.570
Going after the perpetrators in each of
these cases wasn't getting me anywhere.

01:25:05.170 --> 01:25:10.030
So, I reconnected with Dr. Berlinski and
Dr. Schroeder to see if they had any

01:25:10.030 --> 01:25:10.530
advice.

01:25:15.740 --> 01:25:18.800
There's a boundary to what science will
accept right now.

01:25:20.220 --> 01:25:22.960
I think the parallel is exactly this wall
coming down.

01:25:23.120 --> 01:25:27.760
Ask any Berliner from the east side what
it meant to have the wall come down.

01:25:28.860 --> 01:25:36.100
If it is possible to make a break in the
wall that will allow academia to ask these

01:25:36.100 --> 01:25:40.260
fundamental questions that exist,
and allow them in the science classrooms

01:25:40.260 --> 01:25:40.760
as well.

01:25:44.000 --> 01:25:47.620
It'd be nice to see the scientific
establishment lose some of its prestige

01:25:47.620 --> 01:25:48.100
and power.

01:25:48.600 --> 01:25:50.940
It'd be nice to see other questions being
opened up.

01:25:51.440 --> 01:25:56.440
Above all, it'd be nice to have a real
spirit of self-criticism penetrating the

01:25:56.440 --> 01:25:56.760
sciences.

01:25:59.160 --> 01:26:01.020
What can I do to bring down the wall?

01:26:01.200 --> 01:26:02.220
Is there anything I can do?

01:26:02.580 --> 01:26:05.780
Make it apparent to the world that a wall
exists.

01:26:06.160 --> 01:26:09.940
There are vast numbers of persons who talk
about academic freedom.

01:26:10.640 --> 01:26:14.200
And there is academic freedom,
as long as you're on the correct side of

01:26:14.200 --> 01:26:14.620
the wall.

01:26:15.900 --> 01:26:18.780
But if you're on the wrong side of the
wall, as we mentioned a few moments ago,

01:26:18.920 --> 01:26:19.640
you lose tenure.

01:26:19.800 --> 01:26:20.560
And that's a given.

01:26:22.520 --> 01:26:24.780
I took Dr. Schroeder's words to heart.

01:26:25.720 --> 01:26:29.980
Obviously, I couldn't take down the wall
myself, but I could confront one of its

01:26:29.980 --> 01:26:31.100
modern architects.

01:27:23.990 --> 01:27:25.430
Hello, Professor Dawkins.

01:27:25.550 --> 01:27:26.010
How are you?

01:27:26.690 --> 01:27:27.690
I'm Ben Stein.

01:27:27.790 --> 01:27:28.890
I'm so sorry to keep you waiting.

01:27:29.170 --> 01:27:29.570
How are you?

01:27:29.770 --> 01:27:30.370
Fine, thank you.

01:27:32.690 --> 01:27:39.090
You have written that God is a psychotic
delinquent invented by mad, deluded

01:27:39.090 --> 01:27:39.550
people.

01:27:40.190 --> 01:27:41.490
No, I didn't say quite that.

01:27:41.530 --> 01:27:43.450
I said something rather better than that.

01:27:43.450 --> 01:27:44.750
Please tell us what you said.

01:27:45.830 --> 01:27:48.290
Well, I would have to read it from the
book.

01:27:48.330 --> 01:27:48.790
No, please.

01:27:49.810 --> 01:27:54.170
The God of the Old Testament is arguably
the most unpleasant character in all

01:27:54.170 --> 01:27:54.550
fiction.

01:27:55.170 --> 01:27:56.230
Jealous and proud of it.

01:27:56.590 --> 01:27:59.290
A petty, unjust, unforgiving control
freak.

01:27:59.690 --> 01:28:02.030
A vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic
cleanser.

01:28:02.430 --> 01:28:07.450
A misogynistic, homophobic, racist,
infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal,

01:28:07.650 --> 01:28:12.550
pestilential, megalomaniacal,
sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent

01:28:12.550 --> 01:28:12.790
bully.

01:28:12.790 --> 01:28:14.370
So that's what you think of God?

01:28:14.530 --> 01:28:14.670
Yeah.

01:28:15.010 --> 01:28:19.770
How about if people believed in a God of
infinite lovingness and kindness and

01:28:19.770 --> 01:28:23.910
forgiveness and generosity, sort of like
the modern-day God?

01:28:24.510 --> 01:28:25.790
Why spoil it for them?

01:28:27.770 --> 01:28:28.170
Oh...

01:28:28.170 --> 01:28:31.010
Why not just let them have their fun and
enjoy it?

01:28:31.090 --> 01:28:33.070
I mean, I don't want to spoil anything for
anybody.

01:28:33.270 --> 01:28:34.150
I write a book.

01:28:34.230 --> 01:28:35.710
People can read it if they want to.

01:28:36.290 --> 01:28:43.750
I believe that it is a liberating thing to
free yourself from primitive superstition.

01:28:43.910 --> 01:28:45.390
So religion is a primitive superstition?

01:28:45.490 --> 01:28:46.450
Oh, I think it is, yes.

01:28:46.810 --> 01:28:51.630
So, you believe it's liberating to tell
people that there is no God?

01:28:52.030 --> 01:28:58.550
I think a lot of people, when they give up
God, feel a great sense of release and

01:28:58.550 --> 01:28:59.010
freedom.

01:28:59.330 --> 01:29:00.050
Why do you think that?

01:29:00.110 --> 01:29:00.790
I mean, what's your data?

01:29:00.890 --> 01:29:02.350
What's your scientists, what's your data?

01:29:02.350 --> 01:29:05.530
I think, well, I've had a lot of letters
saying that.

01:29:05.870 --> 01:29:08.050
There are 8 billion people in the world,
Dr. Dawkins.

01:29:08.130 --> 01:29:09.190
How many letters have you had?

01:29:09.210 --> 01:29:10.130
No, I haven't done that.

01:29:10.550 --> 01:29:11.470
That's quite true.

01:29:12.190 --> 01:29:16.990
Professor Dawkins seemed so convinced that
God doesn't exist that I wondered if he

01:29:16.990 --> 01:29:18.710
would be willing to put a number on it.

01:29:19.290 --> 01:29:23.530
Well, it's hard to put a figure on it,
but, I mean, I'd put it as something like,

01:29:23.550 --> 01:29:26.010
you know, 99% against or something.

01:29:26.010 --> 01:29:27.690
Well, how do you know it's 99%?

01:29:27.690 --> 01:29:27.990
I don't.

01:29:28.130 --> 01:29:29.590
You're saying 97%.

01:29:29.590 --> 01:29:33.390
You asked me to put a figure on it,
and I'm not comfortable putting a figure

01:29:33.390 --> 01:29:33.710
on it.

01:29:34.030 --> 01:29:36.670
I think it's, I just think it's very
unlikely.

01:29:37.170 --> 01:29:37.570
What?

01:29:38.110 --> 01:29:39.610
But you couldn't put a number on it?

01:29:39.610 --> 01:29:40.310
No, of course not.

01:29:40.590 --> 01:29:42.410
So it could be 49%.

01:29:42.410 --> 01:29:49.490
Well, it would be, I mean, I think it's
unlikely, but, and it's quite far from

01:29:49.490 --> 01:29:50.210
50%.

01:29:50.210 --> 01:29:51.190
How do you know?

01:29:51.530 --> 01:29:52.290
I don't know.

01:29:52.390 --> 01:29:54.550
I mean, I put an argument in the book.

01:29:55.070 --> 01:29:56.890
Well, then who did create the heavens and
the earth?

01:29:56.890 --> 01:29:58.090
Why do you use the word who?

01:29:58.310 --> 01:30:01.070
You see, you immediately beg the question
by using the word who.

01:30:01.550 --> 01:30:02.710
Well, then how did it get created?

01:30:05.790 --> 01:30:07.950
Well, by a very slow process.

01:30:08.210 --> 01:30:09.090
Well, how did it start?

01:30:09.490 --> 01:30:11.010
Nobody knows how it got started.

01:30:11.410 --> 01:30:13.470
We know the kind of event that it must
have been.

01:30:13.570 --> 01:30:16.790
We know the sort of event that must have
happened for the origin of life.

01:30:16.870 --> 01:30:17.430
And what was that?

01:30:17.490 --> 01:30:21.730
It was the origin of the first
self-replicating molecule.

01:30:22.010 --> 01:30:23.130
Right, and how did that happen?

01:30:24.110 --> 01:30:25.410
I told you, we don't know.

01:30:25.890 --> 01:30:27.870
So you have no idea how it started?

01:30:28.090 --> 01:30:28.410
No, no.

01:30:28.790 --> 01:30:29.730
Nor has anybody.

01:30:29.750 --> 01:30:30.530
Nor has anyone else.

01:30:30.870 --> 01:30:35.690
What do you think is the possibility that
intelligent design might turn out to be

01:30:35.690 --> 01:30:40.050
the answer to some issues in genetics or
in evolution?

01:30:40.770 --> 01:30:42.850
It could come about in the following way.

01:30:43.130 --> 01:30:49.650
It could be that at some earlier time,
somewhere in the universe, a civilization

01:30:49.650 --> 01:30:55.850
evolved by probably some kind of Darwinian
means to a very, very high level of

01:30:55.850 --> 01:31:01.810
technology and designed a form of life
that they seeded onto perhaps this planet.

01:31:02.450 --> 01:31:07.210
Now, that is a possibility and an
intriguing possibility.

01:31:07.690 --> 01:31:10.390
And I suppose it's possible that you might
find evidence for that.

01:31:10.450 --> 01:31:16.410
If you look at the details of
biochemistry, molecular biology,

01:31:16.490 --> 01:31:19.490
you might find a signature of some sort of
designer.

01:31:19.990 --> 01:31:20.870
Wait a second.

01:31:21.330 --> 01:31:25.590
Richard Dawkins thought intelligent design
might be a legitimate pursuit?

01:31:25.590 --> 01:31:32.050
And that designer could well be a higher
intelligence from elsewhere in the

01:31:32.050 --> 01:31:32.590
universe.

01:31:32.990 --> 01:31:37.650
But that higher intelligence would itself
have had to have come about by some

01:31:37.650 --> 01:31:40.770
explicable or ultimately explicable
process.

01:31:41.070 --> 01:31:43.450
It couldn't have just jumped into
existence spontaneously.

01:31:43.450 --> 01:31:44.490
That's the point.

01:31:44.810 --> 01:31:51.010
So, Professor Dawkins was not against
intelligent design, just certain types of

01:31:51.010 --> 01:31:53.550
designers, such as God.

01:31:54.150 --> 01:31:58.390
So, the Hebrew God, the God of the Old
Testament, he doesn't exist in your view?

01:32:00.890 --> 01:32:01.250
Certainly.

01:32:01.430 --> 01:32:03.850
I mean, that would be a very unpleasant
prospect.

01:32:04.030 --> 01:32:07.450
And the holy trinity of the New Testament,
that doesn't exist?

01:32:07.450 --> 01:32:08.130
No, nothing like that.

01:32:08.550 --> 01:32:10.550
Do you believe in any of the Hindu gods?

01:32:11.790 --> 01:32:12.190
Like Vishnu?

01:32:12.190 --> 01:32:13.470
How can you ask such a question?

01:32:13.750 --> 01:32:14.530
How could I?

01:32:14.970 --> 01:32:17.410
I mean, why would I, given that I don't
believe in any others?

01:32:17.470 --> 01:32:18.790
You don't believe in the Muslim god?

01:32:18.870 --> 01:32:19.170
No.

01:32:20.550 --> 01:32:21.950
Why do you even need to ask?

01:32:22.370 --> 01:32:23.630
Well, I just wanted to be sure.

01:32:23.930 --> 01:32:25.870
So, you don't believe in any god anywhere?

01:32:27.690 --> 01:32:35.530
Any god anywhere would be completely
incompatible with anything that I've said.

01:32:36.130 --> 01:32:36.770
I understand.

01:32:37.030 --> 01:32:38.750
I just wanted to make sure.

01:32:38.870 --> 01:32:40.250
You don't believe in any god anywhere?

01:32:41.110 --> 01:32:41.470
No.

01:32:41.630 --> 01:32:44.070
What if, after you died, you ran into God?

01:32:44.510 --> 01:32:46.310
He said, what have you been doing,
Richard?

01:32:46.470 --> 01:32:47.590
I mean, what have you been doing?

01:32:47.630 --> 01:32:49.090
I've been trying to be nice to you.

01:32:49.090 --> 01:32:54.090
I gave you a multi-million dollar paycheck
over and over again with your book,

01:32:54.130 --> 01:32:55.130
and look what you did.

01:32:55.850 --> 01:33:00.470
Bertrand Russell had that point put to
him, and he said something like,

01:33:00.630 --> 01:33:04.890
sir, why did you take such pains to hide
yourself?

01:33:07.870 --> 01:33:12.430
But, if the intelligent design people are
right, God isn't hidden.

01:33:12.990 --> 01:33:17.990
We may even be able to encounter God
through science, if we have the freedom to

01:33:17.990 --> 01:33:18.430
go there.

01:33:19.390 --> 01:33:21.710
What could be more intriguing than that?

01:33:27.210 --> 01:33:30.550
We take freedom for granted here in the
United States.

01:33:32.110 --> 01:33:34.390
Freedom is what this country is all about.

01:33:35.810 --> 01:33:39.230
And a huge part of freedom is freedom of
inquiry.

01:33:40.110 --> 01:33:44.990
But now, I'm sorry to say, freedom of
inquiry in science is being suppressed.

01:33:45.950 --> 01:33:50.910
Behind me stands a wall that encircles the
free sectors of this city.

01:33:51.910 --> 01:33:54.170
Part of a vast system of barriers.

01:33:54.970 --> 01:33:59.050
There are people out there who want to
keep science in a little box, where it

01:33:59.050 --> 01:34:03.510
can't possibly touch a higher power,
cannot possibly touch God.

01:34:03.870 --> 01:34:09.110
Those barriers cut across Germany in a
gash of barbed wire, concrete,

01:34:09.730 --> 01:34:11.570
dog runs and guard towers.

01:34:11.570 --> 01:34:16.670
If you believe in God, and you believe
that there is an intrinsic order in the

01:34:16.670 --> 01:34:21.090
universe, and you believe that it's the
role of science to try to pursue and

01:34:21.090 --> 01:34:23.840
understand better that order, you will be
ostracized.

01:34:25.490 --> 01:34:30.250
I'm frightened by this, but I'm not going
to let it stop me from investigating and

01:34:30.250 --> 01:34:30.870
from speaking.

01:34:31.450 --> 01:34:34.130
The wall cannot withstand freedom.

01:34:34.830 --> 01:34:40.890
What I'm asking for is the freedom to
follow the evidence wherever it leads.

01:34:42.490 --> 01:34:45.930
My hope is that there will be enough
independent thinking scientists who don't

01:34:45.930 --> 01:34:47.410
like to be told what to think.

01:34:48.250 --> 01:34:53.210
People on both sides of the argument being
prepared to talk and listen.

01:34:53.630 --> 01:34:57.290
And above all, a willingness to keep these
dialogues open.

01:34:57.810 --> 01:35:02.730
It might allow a lot of very good
scientists to be scientists, who aren't

01:35:02.730 --> 01:35:04.630
being allowed to be scientists right now.

01:35:04.630 --> 01:35:07.030
I don't care what they end up as being.

01:35:07.330 --> 01:35:11.410
I don't care if they end up being
religious, a young earth creationist.

01:35:11.650 --> 01:35:16.890
If they have thought their way through the
issues and get there, I'm all for them.

01:35:17.130 --> 01:35:19.330
And why do I think we're going to win in
this struggle?

01:35:19.550 --> 01:35:22.110
Because truth crushed to earth will rise
again.

01:35:22.570 --> 01:35:25.130
To find out what's true has a value all of
its own.

01:35:25.290 --> 01:35:28.210
If it has additional good consequences,
so be it.

01:35:29.150 --> 01:35:30.970
Because no lie can live forever.

01:35:30.970 --> 01:35:34.790
I believe that science gives us one
perspective on the world, and our

01:35:34.790 --> 01:35:37.050
religious insight gives us another
perspective on the world.

01:35:37.290 --> 01:35:40.890
And by putting the two together,
it will seem more deeply and more truly.

01:35:41.390 --> 01:35:44.250
And if we will stand up for freedom...

01:35:44.250 --> 01:35:46.150
Freedom is the victor.

01:35:46.310 --> 01:35:49.750
If we all do that, we will overcome.

01:36:09.630 --> 01:36:12.670
I've taken a first step by speaking out on
this issue.

01:36:13.070 --> 01:36:16.570
But if the wall is to come down,
we all have to do our part.

01:36:17.050 --> 01:36:19.630
Some of you will pay a heavy price for
speaking out.

01:36:20.170 --> 01:36:21.510
You may even lose your job.

01:36:22.210 --> 01:36:24.110
I guarantee you'll get a e-mail.

01:36:24.830 --> 01:36:28.830
But if you don't get involved,
will anyone be left to carry the burden?