WEBVTT

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Good morning.

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Wendy Wright?

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Yes.

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I'm Richard Dawkins.

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Very kind of you to do this interview.

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Yes.

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Where should we go then?

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Well, how's this?

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Okay.

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Concerned Women of America.

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I've looked up...

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For America, I do beg your pardon.

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I've looked up some of the things you're
concerned about, and one of them is

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something I'm very concerned about too,
which is Darwin and evolution.

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But why are you concerned about evolution?

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Yes.

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Well, what a person believes about how
human beings were created shapes what they

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believe about human beings.

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That if we believe that human beings were
created out of love, that is, by a loving

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creator, and has given each one of us not
only a material body, but a spirit and a

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soul, we then are more likely to treat
other people with respect and dignity.

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Yes, but you have to contend with facts,
don't you?

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And, I mean, if evolution is a scientific
fact, you might as well be concerned about

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gravity or the Milky Way, mightn't you?

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Yes.

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Well, there's been an effort within the
scientific community to censor out

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information against evolution that proves
that evolution may not be as many

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scientists believe.

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There have been many times in which
evidence that was brought forward to

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bolster the idea of evolution turned out
to be fraudulent.

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What's an example of that?

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So what we argue for is to teach the
controversy.

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Don't censor out the facts that go against
evolution, such as the famous pig's tooth,

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the tooth that was claimed to be an
example of a prehistoric man and turned

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out to just be the tooth of a pig.

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There are numerous examples like that.

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So teach the controversy rather than try
and censor out the information that shows

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that evolution is questionable.

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Seriously, there isn't a controversy.

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There may be a controversy within
evolution about certain details,

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but the fact of evolution is
uncontroversial.

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I mean, whether you like it or not,
we're cousins of chimpanzees, we're

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slightly more distant cousins of monkeys,
etc.

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I mean, pig's teeth are really irrelevant.

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Of course you can dig up mistakes and even
outright fraud.

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I mean, the piltdown hoax was an outright
fraud.

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But that was never used as evidence for
evolution.

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It was just a particular case of somebody
in the 1920s who fraudulently made up a

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fossil.

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There's no evidence of evolution from one
species to another.

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There's microevolution within a species,
but not going from one species to another.

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Oh, really?

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And actually, the way you have framed this
and your very closed-mindedness really is

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a very good example of the kind of
censorship we see within the scientific

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community that won't even allow discussion
about the controversy, that says that we

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can't even discuss any evidence that might
show that evolution is questionable.

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Where did you study science?

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Well, see, that's the point.

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Scientists are now claiming that they're
the only ones that can speak on this

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issue.

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And yet, when people who look at the
evidence go to the Smithsonian Museum on

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Natural History, and when we look for
where's the evidence to show evolution

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from one species to another, all we find
are drawings, illustrations.

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There aren't the actual material evidence
showing it.

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So, while there are attempts to say that
only scientists can speak on this,

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what we have are scientists that are then
creating an isolated community and saying

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that it's almost like a religion in which
only scientists are allowed to speak and

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teach on it and to teach everyone else.

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Everyone else must believe what particular
scientists say.

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But the scientists who question evolution
are being censored out or being

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blackballed out of the scientific
community and being told that the rest of

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the world cannot listen to them.

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Yeah.

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The evidence is actually rather
substantial.

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It's not just fossils, you know.

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I mean, it's DNA.

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Presumably, you're not concerned about
DNA.

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You accept the existence of DNA.

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Do you?

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I think DNA helps to prove that each
person is an individual created and as

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distinct from one another.

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If you look at the DNA of all animals and
all plants, what you find is a beautifully

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arranged hierarchy.

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You find that our DNA is close to
chimpanzees, slightly more distant from

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monkeys, slightly more distant still from
rats, slightly more distant still from

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lizards.

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The whole thing falls into a beautiful
hierarchical pattern, just like a family

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tree.

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It is a family tree.

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How would you explain that?

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And where is the evidence?

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Well, the evidence is in the DNA.

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No, no, excuse me.

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Where is the evidence of evolution from
one species to another species,

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the macroevolution?

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Well, it's in the DNA.

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It's in the DNA.

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It's in the geographical distribution
species.

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What we're talking about are
commonalities.

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But again, where is the material evidence
of evolution from one species to another

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species?

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Well, we obviously have a different
conception of what evidence is.

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Scientists accept that as evidence.

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It's overwhelming, massive evidence.

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But let me come on to something else.

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It sounds to me as though you've got some
kind of another agenda.

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Is it perhaps that your hostility to
evolution, which by the way is not shared

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by bishops and archbishops and people like
that, your hostility to evolution perhaps

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stems from something emotional?

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Like, I mean, is it that you feel that
evolution...

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I mean, I've heard people say,
for example, tell me I'm related to a

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monkey.

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You know, I'm not related to a monkey.

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Tell people they're related to monkeys and
they'll behave like monkeys.

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Tell people they're related to pond slime
and they'll behave like pond slime.

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Is part of that the hidden agenda behind
your rejection of science?

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There's no hostility and there's no hidden
agenda.

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We've been very up front with what it is
we believe.

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And the ad hominem attacks that people who
favor evolution use against people who

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don't buy into that, I think shows the
lack of confidence in the evidence.

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If evolution had so much evidence behind
it, then those in favor of evolution would

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not have to be reduced to ad hominem
attacks against those who say,

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show us the evidence, show us what's
lacking.

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Well, I think I dispute ad hominem,
but I think you could understand a certain

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annoyance.

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It's a little bit as though a teacher of
classics...

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I'm talking about education now in schools
and universities.

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Imagine that a teacher of Latin had to...
or a teacher of Roman history had to

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contend with people coming along and
saying, the Romans never existed,

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the Latin language is a Victorian
invention designed to...

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And I think that's a perfect example of
the hostility that those who favor

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evolution have toward those who don't buy
into the idea, who say, show us the

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evidence, and yet those in favor of
evolution can't show us the evidence that

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we're looking for.

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I'm sorry, but we can show you the
evidence.

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All you need to do is read an elementary
textbook of biology.

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It's all there.

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Well, that's interesting you should bring
out the textbooks on biology.

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We still have textbooks today that show...

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Yeah, I know you're going to talk about
peppered moths and you're going to talk

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about Heckel's embryos.

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No, no.

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In fact, what I was going to talk about is
what they claim to be the evolution of a

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fetus in the womb based on hand drawings,
which have been proven to be false,

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and yet they continue to be published in
scientific textbooks.

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Heckel's embryos are just one little
thing.

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It's a Victorian thing.

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Plenty of people made mistakes in
Victorian...

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And yet continues to be published in
today's textbooks.

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Well, no longer actually, but I don't
think it's really fair, is it,

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to pick on particular Victorian mistakes.

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It is a Victorian mistake.

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Oh, but it was carried over into the 20th
century.

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Yes, and that was a mistake and that's
been corrected.

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But look at the massive evidence that
there is today.

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I can't help feeling that there's some
sort of hidden agenda.

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Maybe I was wrong to say it was a thing
about...

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tell people that they're descended from
monkeys and they'll behave like monkeys.

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Is it something else?

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I mean, is there some other worry that you
have?

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If you're looking for a so-called agenda,
I'll tell you what it is.

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We believe that human beings should be
treated with respect and dignity.

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And the reason we believe that...

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Well, so do I, of course.

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The reason we believe that is because we
can see that God created each one of us.

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And what we find is that philosophies that
are built on evolution oftentimes lead to

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horrific abuses against human beings.

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And you can see why, because it's drawn on
a foundation that says...

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human beings are just material and they
should be judged according to their

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utilitarian use.

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What can they provide for society?

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We don't believe that.

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We believe that each human being,
whether they can supply something to

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society or not, if they are disabled,
if they are young, that they should be

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treated with the same amount of respect as
you and I should be treated.

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Yes, I mean, I accept all that and I agree
with that.

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I mean, I also think humans should be
treated with respect.

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But what we have here is an agenda.

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It's that you want humans to be treated
with respect.

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And therefore, if the scientific facts go
against what your perception is,

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then you're going to distort the
scientific facts.

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Now, why don't you instead accept the
scientific facts and say, but we still

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want to treat humans with respect.

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Let's look at evolution and let's see that
we can indeed treat humans with respect

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within the evolution framework.

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What I go back to is the evolutionists are
still lacking the science to back it up.

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But instead, what happens is science that
doesn't bolster the case for evolution

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gets censored out.

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Such as, there is no evidence of evolution
going from one species to another species.

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If evolution had occurred, then surely,
whether it's going from birds to mammals

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or even beyond that, surely there'd be at
least one evidence...

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Yes, an impressive amount of evidence.

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I'm sorry, but you people keep repeating
that like a kind of mantra.

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Because you just listen to each other.

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I mean, if only you would just open your
eyes and look at the evidence.

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Show it to me.

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Show me the bones.

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Show me the carcass.

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Show me the evidence of the in-between
stage from one species to another.

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Every time a fossil is found which is in
between one species and another,

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you guys say, ah, now we've got two gaps
where previously there was only one.

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I mean, almost every fossil you find is
intermediate with something and something

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else.

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If that were the case, the Smithsonian
Natural History Museum would be filled

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with these examples.

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But instead, they're not.

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It is.

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It is.

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When we talk about intermediates between
species, we're of course not talking about

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intermediates between modern species.

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We're not talking about intermediates
between dogs and cats.

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We're talking about intermediates between
ancestral dogs and slightly more recent

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ancestral dogs.

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Now, in the case of humans, since Darwin's
time, there's now an enormous amount of

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evidence about intermediates in human
fossils.

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And we've got various species of
Australopithecus, for example.

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And these are, I mean, some
Australopithecus are intermediate between

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others and ourselves.

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Then you've got Homo habilis, Homo
erectus.

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These are intermediate between
Australopithecus, which was an older

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species, and Homo sapiens, which is a
younger species.

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I mean, why don't you see those as
intermediates?

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Evolutionists bear the burden of providing
the evidence for those of us who are not

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scientists to see it.

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And if the evolutionists had the actual
evidence, then it would be displayed in

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museums, not just in illustrations.

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So what I go back to, though, I think
there is a bit of a... there could be a

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hidden agenda on the part of those in
favor of Darwin.

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In Darwin's own words, in which he claimed
that there was a difference among the

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races.

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And that was then used to promote racism.

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Yeah, that's Victorian.

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Everybody in Victorian times was racist.

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That is the foundation, though,
those who are in favor of evolution often

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refer back to Darwin.

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And he is quite a hero of the evolutionist
movement.

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Well, he is a hero, but not with respect
to racism.

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I just told you about Australopithecus,
Homo habilis, Homo erectus, Homo sapiens.

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By the way, archaic Homo sapiens and then
modern Homo sapiens.

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That's a beautiful series of
intermediates.

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You're still lacking the material
evidence.

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The material evidence is there.

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Go to the museum and look at it.

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So what I go back to again is let's look
at what evolution and Darwinism has

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spawned.

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Let's look at the philosophies that have
come out of it that have been so horrific

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to our world.

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So we need to look at the philosophies
behind and that have grown out of

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evolution.

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What we find are the societies that are
the most loving and caring.

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The societies that are the most
well-functioning are the ones that have a

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great respect for human beings,
for others.

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Because they recognize that each human
being was created individually and is

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distinct from one another.

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Interesting enough regarding that you
mentioned how the DNA is common among

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various species.

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But among human beings, each one of us has
distinct DNA.

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In fact, that's one thing that scientists
will use to determine who has committed a

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crime is basing it on the DNA evidence.

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So even DNA helps to show that each human
being was created individually.

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DNA shows that each human being evolved
individually.

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And of course there are individual
differences between human beings,

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genetic differences.

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Otherwise natural selection couldn't
happen.

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Now I presented you with, I don't have
them here obviously, but you can go to any

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museum and you can see Australopithecus,
you can see Homo habilis, you can see Homo

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erectus, you can see archaic Homo sapiens
and modern Homo sapiens.

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A beautiful series of intermediates.

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Why do you keep saying present me with the
evidence when I've done so?

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Go to the museum and look.

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I have gone to the museums and so have so
many of us who still are not convinced

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with evolution.

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Have you seen Homo erectus?

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And I think this effort, this rather
aggressive effort to try and talk over us

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and to censor us seems to come out of a
frustration that so many people still

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don't believe in evolution.

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Now if evolutionists were so confident in
their beliefs, there wouldn't be the

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effort to censor out information that
shows that evolution is still lacking and

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is questionable.

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I confess to being frustrated.

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It's not about suppression, it's about the
fact that I have told you about four or

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five fossils and you seem to simply be
ignoring what I'm saying.

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Why don't you go and look at those
fossils?

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And certainly if they were in the museums,
which I've been to many times,

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then I would look at them objectively.

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But what I go back to is that the
philosophy of evolution has led to

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ideologies that have been so destructive
to the human race.

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It's been misunderstood.

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I mean, even Hitler could be described as
a misunderstanding of Darwinism and that's

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a grotesque and horrible misunderstanding.

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And those in favor of eugenicists,
and those in favor of euthanasia,

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and those in favor of infanticide.

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But wouldn't it be a good idea,
instead of pointing to misperceptions of

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Darwinism, which have been hideously
misused politically, if you try to

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understand Darwinism, then you'd be in a
position to counteract these horrible

15:36.500 --> 15:37.380
misunderstandings.

15:37.380 --> 15:42.320
Well, actually, we are oftentimes forced
by the aggressiveness of those who favor

15:42.320 --> 15:42.800
evolution.

15:42.800 --> 15:47.380
It's not as if we are hidden from this
information that you keep presenting.

15:47.600 --> 15:52.400
It's not as if it's unknown to us,
because we can't get away from it.

15:52.480 --> 15:54.040
It's pushed on us all the time.

15:54.420 --> 15:58.340
But I think your frustration comes from
the fact that so many of us who have seen

15:58.340 --> 16:01.720
your information still don't buy into your
ideology.

16:02.040 --> 16:03.340
Have you seen Homo erectus?

16:03.420 --> 16:04.560
Have you seen Homo habilis?

16:04.600 --> 16:05.520
Have you seen Australopithecus?

16:06.340 --> 16:12.360
What I've seen is that in the museums and
in the textbooks, that whenever they claim

16:12.360 --> 16:17.580
to show the evolution from one species to
another, it relies on illustrations and

16:17.580 --> 16:21.280
drawings, not any material evidence.

16:21.960 --> 16:25.440
You might have to go to the Nairobi Museum
to see the original fossils, but you can

16:25.440 --> 16:31.520
see casts of fossils, exact copies of
these fossils, in any major museum.

16:31.520 --> 16:35.680
Let me ask you, why are you so aggressive?

16:36.040 --> 16:41.020
Why is it so important to you that
everyone believe like you believe?

16:41.240 --> 16:42.380
Well, I'm not talking about belief.

16:42.540 --> 16:43.640
I'm talking about facts.

16:43.720 --> 16:47.200
I'm talking about... I've told you about
certain fossils.

16:48.100 --> 16:51.680
And every time I ask you about them,
you evade the question and you turn to

16:51.680 --> 16:52.260
something else.

16:52.260 --> 16:58.640
Again, I say that you can name a few of
those, but they still don't show,

16:58.820 --> 17:06.260
they still don't prove evolution from the
slime to the intricate human body.

17:06.780 --> 17:13.060
If we had gone from that broad of an
evolution, there should be overwhelming

17:13.060 --> 17:18.320
tons of material evidence, not just an
isolated thing here and there.

17:18.360 --> 17:20.540
But again, there is not evidence.

17:20.540 --> 17:24.380
I happen to pick human hominid fossils
because I thought you'd be most interested

17:24.380 --> 17:24.800
in them.

17:25.120 --> 17:29.400
But you can find similar fossils from any
vertebrate group you care to name.

17:29.660 --> 17:30.200
Of course, there are lots of...

17:30.200 --> 17:33.720
But I guess I go back to, why is it so
important to you that everyone believe in

17:33.720 --> 17:34.400
evolution?

17:35.680 --> 17:39.480
You seem to almost feel like it's
dangerous for people to believe that human

17:39.480 --> 17:45.220
beings were created individually and with
a distinctness and created by a creator.

17:45.580 --> 17:45.980
Why is that?

17:45.980 --> 17:46.820
I don't like the word belief.

17:46.960 --> 17:49.480
I prefer to just ask people to look at the
evidence.

17:49.660 --> 17:50.960
And I'm asking you to look at the
evidence.

17:51.180 --> 17:54.060
And I'm asking you, why does it seem so
dangerous to you?

17:54.120 --> 17:57.220
Why is it so important to you that people
not believe in a creator?

17:57.880 --> 17:58.920
No, that's not the point.

17:59.060 --> 18:04.440
I mean, the point is that as a scientist,
I'm concerned that children in American

18:04.440 --> 18:09.100
schools and in schools elsewhere should be
exposed to the evidence and allowed to

18:09.100 --> 18:10.380
make up their minds about the evidence.

18:10.380 --> 18:11.580
And we completely agree.

18:11.740 --> 18:16.480
In fact, that's why the challenge in
America, whenever this debate comes up,

18:16.860 --> 18:20.320
is teach the controversy, teach the
evidence.

18:20.400 --> 18:24.300
Because as it is now, in many cases,
school children are only being taught

18:24.300 --> 18:24.880
about evolution.

18:25.020 --> 18:29.840
They're not being taught about the frauds
in evolution and the lack of evidence in

18:29.840 --> 18:30.120
evolution.

18:30.420 --> 18:35.560
So it's actually us who are arguing for
teaching all the evidence, not just the

18:35.560 --> 18:37.780
ones that are favorable to evolutionists.

18:38.280 --> 18:40.000
Well, you could say which controversy.

18:40.240 --> 18:42.440
I mean, there are, of course, other
creation stories than Genesis.

18:42.660 --> 18:45.280
Do you believe that the world is young,
for example?

18:45.360 --> 18:47.760
Do you believe the world is less than
10,000 years old?

18:48.080 --> 18:51.420
Well, I believe that God created the
world.

18:51.920 --> 18:54.480
And the time frame, it can be unknown.

18:54.700 --> 18:59.720
As we look in the Bible, it's hard to know
what a day, the length of time that might

18:59.720 --> 19:01.740
mean in that context.

19:02.680 --> 19:06.320
So when I go back to those, the human
being, because that's what I think we

19:06.320 --> 19:08.400
really care about, are human beings.

19:09.020 --> 19:15.600
And are human beings created through the
loving touch of a creator or just came out

19:15.600 --> 19:16.300
of slime?

19:16.700 --> 19:19.360
Well, if you were to talk to a bishop,
the bishop would probably say,

19:19.720 --> 19:24.520
yes, human beings were created by a loving
creator, but he used evolution in order to

19:24.520 --> 19:24.780
do it.

19:24.840 --> 19:26.960
I mean, that would be the position of the
archbishop of Canterbury.

19:26.960 --> 19:34.600
And that does show that there's a variety
of opinions across the board among those

19:34.600 --> 19:38.080
who may not buy completely into the
hardcore ideas of evolution.

19:38.600 --> 19:43.880
There are those who believe in different
levels of evolution within creation.

19:44.200 --> 19:49.540
And that really shows kind of a creative
independence within our movement that

19:49.540 --> 19:54.120
seems to be a bit lacking among those who
believe in evolution and only evolution.

19:54.120 --> 19:57.040
But as I've just told you, there are
bishops who believe in evolution.

19:57.360 --> 19:59.260
Just about all bishops believe in
evolution.

19:59.900 --> 20:05.060
You would have to clarify what
denomination of bishops to say a broad

20:05.060 --> 20:06.220
term like that.

20:06.260 --> 20:08.760
Let's say the ones I'm familiar with are
Anglican and Catholic.

20:09.520 --> 20:10.320
But that's okay.

20:10.680 --> 20:14.680
I mean, there are certainly lots of very,
very senior church people who do believe

20:14.680 --> 20:15.200
in evolution.

20:15.200 --> 20:18.220
And so there is a broad... I mean,
there are those and there are others who

20:18.220 --> 20:24.140
are not bishops but who are scientists or
also Christian or also Jews and who

20:24.140 --> 20:29.040
believe in evolution but who think that
the idea of God kind of intervening in

20:29.040 --> 20:31.350
this sort of conjuring trick way is rather
blasphemous.

20:31.350 --> 20:36.550
I mean, I know evolutionist colleagues who
are also devout Christians who think that

20:36.550 --> 20:41.930
it's to the greater glory of God to study
the way science actually is rather than to

20:41.930 --> 20:46.450
try to bring God in as a kind of magician
who kind of, you know, waves a wand and

20:46.450 --> 20:47.110
things happen.

20:47.210 --> 20:48.730
It's rather demeaning to God.

20:48.730 --> 20:54.250
And that is a misinterpretation,
misframing of what we believe.

20:54.810 --> 21:02.510
We believe that God can and does intervene
throughout history and in life.

21:02.890 --> 21:07.550
And we see that as like a loving father
that's involved in his family and his

21:07.550 --> 21:08.050
children.

21:08.970 --> 21:13.790
It's not that the father is dictating
everything to his children, what they can

21:13.790 --> 21:14.650
and cannot do.

21:14.650 --> 21:19.610
As a Christian, I believe in free will,
that God created us with the ability to

21:19.610 --> 21:20.570
make our own decisions.

21:20.750 --> 21:23.150
Some of those decisions are bad decisions,
some are good.

21:23.750 --> 21:27.950
And so to say that God intervenes in our
lives, even in the creation, well,

21:28.190 --> 21:33.690
perhaps even especially in the creation of
our life, is reflecting a belief in a very

21:33.690 --> 21:34.730
loving God.

21:34.910 --> 21:35.230
Yes.

21:35.550 --> 21:39.330
And there are others who say that God set
up the laws of physics, the laws of the

21:39.330 --> 21:39.730
universe.

21:39.730 --> 21:44.910
He did it in such a cunning way that when
the time came, evolution got going and

21:44.910 --> 21:46.110
eventually produced us.

21:46.310 --> 21:48.530
Isn't that a rather grand and noble vision
of God?

21:48.530 --> 21:48.830
It is.

21:48.930 --> 21:50.350
And in fact, we believe that as well.

21:50.430 --> 21:57.330
We believe that science is unlocking the
mysteries of the laws put in place by God.

21:57.470 --> 22:01.650
That God created this earth with certain
laws, like the law of gravity,

22:02.050 --> 22:03.470
to allow it to function.

22:03.470 --> 22:11.230
And that science is actually discovering
and unlocking the secrets of the laws that

22:11.230 --> 22:12.210
God put in place.

22:12.370 --> 22:17.430
Among which are evolution, which follows
from the laws of chemistry and physics

22:17.430 --> 22:19.050
under the right conditions.

22:19.290 --> 22:22.430
And that could be the working out of God's
purpose, couldn't it?

22:22.470 --> 22:24.350
Couldn't evolution be the working out of
God's purpose?

22:24.350 --> 22:33.970
And there are many people who do believe
that God does use a form of creation where

22:33.970 --> 22:35.270
evolution is a part of that.

22:39.590 --> 22:49.650
There are many people who do believe that
God intervenes in this world and uses

22:49.650 --> 22:57.470
various laws like gravity or progression
to create a more stable world,

22:57.630 --> 22:58.850
a better world.

22:58.850 --> 23:06.490
So, I don't think that there is much... I
don't think that there should be as much

23:06.490 --> 23:09.610
dissension between our camps.

23:10.210 --> 23:12.690
That we can come to respect one another.

23:12.770 --> 23:13.450
In fact, we do.

23:13.530 --> 23:15.290
We respect evolutionists for their
beliefs.

23:15.450 --> 23:19.650
What we would hope is that there would be
as much respect on the evolutionist part

23:19.650 --> 23:25.710
toward us so that we could have a dialogue
without being reduced to ad hominem tax

23:25.710 --> 23:29.710
and accusing others of having hidden,
secret, hostile agendas.

23:30.190 --> 23:32.210
I don't want to be respected for my
beliefs.

23:32.390 --> 23:33.970
I want you to respect the facts.

23:34.170 --> 23:35.450
I want you to look at the facts.

23:35.890 --> 23:36.530
Don't respect me.

23:36.590 --> 23:37.310
I don't want respect.

23:37.730 --> 23:40.370
I want you to go to museums and look at
the facts.

23:40.930 --> 23:44.270
And don't believe what you've been told
that there is no evidence.

23:44.510 --> 23:45.570
Just go and look at the evidence.

23:46.490 --> 23:47.710
Yes, and what I would say...

23:50.370 --> 23:52.090
I've told you about hominid fossils.

23:52.270 --> 23:53.610
You can go and look at the evolution of
the horse.

23:54.030 --> 23:55.750
You can go and look at the evolution of
the early mammals.

23:56.330 --> 23:57.830
You can go and look at the evolution of
fish.

23:57.930 --> 24:02.570
You can go and look at the transition from
fish to land-living amphibians and

24:02.570 --> 24:03.050
reptiles.

24:03.510 --> 24:05.990
Any of those things you'll find in any
good museum.

24:06.150 --> 24:08.150
Just open your eyes and look at the facts.

24:08.210 --> 24:13.850
And I would say open your eyes and see the
communities that have been built by those

24:13.850 --> 24:17.130
who believe in a loving God who created
each one of us.

24:17.130 --> 24:24.630
And what I find is that that is the kind
of world that most of us would want to

24:24.630 --> 24:25.110
live in.

24:25.410 --> 24:30.270
One in which there is a deep respect for
other human beings because they are

24:30.270 --> 24:31.590
created by a loving God.

24:31.850 --> 24:36.010
However that creation came about,
you can have your beliefs, we can have our

24:36.010 --> 24:36.410
beliefs.

24:36.790 --> 24:40.790
And both can be based on evidence,
even the same evidence.

24:41.450 --> 24:46.630
But I think fundamentally where our
differences come down to is whether there

24:46.630 --> 24:49.870
was a creator or whether there was not a
creator.

24:50.210 --> 24:51.710
I liked one phrase you used there.

24:51.790 --> 24:54.350
You talked about the sort of society in
which we wish to live.

24:54.990 --> 25:00.270
And I'll tell you quite freely that a
society based upon Darwinian principles is

25:00.270 --> 25:02.790
exactly the sort of society I do not wish
to live in.

25:02.790 --> 25:04.630
It would be a terrible society.

25:04.830 --> 25:10.110
It would be a sort of George Bush kind of
society, if I can put it like that,

25:10.190 --> 25:11.950
or Margaret Thatcher kind of society.

25:12.130 --> 25:14.450
I do not wish to live in a Darwinian
world.

25:15.270 --> 25:17.070
I do, however, respect facts.

25:17.350 --> 25:24.150
And I do recognize that the facts of
science show that the world of nature is a

25:24.150 --> 25:24.770
Darwinian world.

25:24.830 --> 25:26.050
It's a very unpleasant world.

25:26.150 --> 25:27.590
It's a thoroughly unpleasant world.

25:27.910 --> 25:29.610
Not the kind of world we wish to live in.

25:29.610 --> 25:34.790
So let us understand it so that we can
construct the kind of society in which we

25:34.790 --> 25:38.090
wish to live, which will be a
non-Darwinian society.

25:38.290 --> 25:42.070
It will be the sort of society which
departs from Darwinian principles.

25:42.670 --> 25:46.330
A society that was based on Darwinian
principles would be a ruthless,

25:46.870 --> 25:52.190
free-market economy in which the rich
trample the poor, in which it would be the

25:52.190 --> 25:54.870
sort of opposite of a liberal socialist
society, in fact.

25:54.870 --> 25:58.870
In a way, I'm rather surprised,
if we're talking politics, that the

25:58.870 --> 26:00.690
right-wing in America is so hostile to
Darwin.

26:01.070 --> 26:04.790
If we're going to be naive about applying
science to politics, you ought to be in

26:04.790 --> 26:05.530
favor of Darwin.

26:05.730 --> 26:09.990
I'm against Darwin where politics is
concerned, but you cannot argue with

26:09.990 --> 26:10.790
scientific facts.

26:11.170 --> 26:15.950
You actually helped to make my case quite
well, and that is that a philosophy that

26:15.950 --> 26:19.530
is drawn out of Darwinism would be
extremely brutal.

26:20.110 --> 26:21.330
And, in fact, has been.

26:21.670 --> 26:23.210
That has been the experience.

26:23.210 --> 26:24.330
I've just said that.

26:24.610 --> 26:25.650
I've agreed with that.

26:26.110 --> 26:31.470
And that's why the societies that have
been built on a viewpoint that God created

26:31.470 --> 26:35.550
each one of us, however He did it,
that's part of the science of unlocking,

26:35.870 --> 26:38.010
of discovering how that was done.

26:38.490 --> 26:43.410
But recognizing that there is a loving
Creator helps to build a society that is

26:43.410 --> 26:45.430
more than just livable, but pleasant.

26:45.430 --> 26:49.650
At Concerned Women for America,
we have state chapters and even more local

26:49.650 --> 26:50.110
chapters.

26:50.490 --> 26:55.290
And one of the things they've been
involved in is the debate over teaching

26:55.290 --> 26:58.290
evolution or intelligent design in the
schoolrooms.

26:58.610 --> 27:01.030
And the position we've taken is teach the
controversy.

27:01.470 --> 27:06.050
Teach all the information, not just
selected information that promotes one

27:06.050 --> 27:09.290
viewpoint, which most of the time,
that's evolution.

27:09.290 --> 27:14.370
But let's teach all the information so
that the schoolchildren can learn how to

27:14.370 --> 27:18.170
think for themselves and come up to their
own conclusions.

27:18.850 --> 27:21.830
Nobody could possibly object to teaching
children to think for themselves.

27:21.830 --> 27:26.030
I wish that were the case, that people
would not object to teaching all the

27:26.030 --> 27:28.970
information or teaching children in a
manner so they can think for themselves.

27:28.970 --> 27:33.130
But sadly, there's been a very
heavy-handed effort in the United States

27:33.130 --> 27:38.530
to clamp down, not allow any teaching that
is contrary to evolution, even to the

27:38.530 --> 27:40.310
point of court orders.

27:41.110 --> 27:43.810
When you say teach the controversy,
it would be nice.

27:43.970 --> 27:46.030
I mean, of course, scientists teach
controversies all the time.

27:46.110 --> 27:47.450
There's a lot of controversy in science.

27:47.790 --> 27:50.150
There's evidence on one side, there's
evidence on the other side.

27:50.590 --> 27:54.630
In this case, however, we have a very
large amount of evidence in favor of

27:54.630 --> 27:55.150
evolution.

27:55.150 --> 27:58.950
But the evidence on the other side is not
evidence in favor of anything else.

27:59.050 --> 28:03.810
It's actually looking for little gaps,
looking for little things that allegedly

28:03.810 --> 28:05.030
evolution can't explain.

28:05.110 --> 28:06.570
Look, we found something they can't
explain.

28:06.670 --> 28:07.610
That must mean God did it.

28:08.470 --> 28:10.550
That doesn't sound like science,
does it?

28:10.570 --> 28:12.010
That sounds like looking for gaps.

28:12.010 --> 28:16.270
If it's evidence, then scientists should
be in favor of teaching evidence,

28:16.350 --> 28:22.070
even if they may discount the evidence,
even if they think it's inconsequential.

28:22.990 --> 28:26.230
As a scientist, scientists should be
committed to teaching truth.

28:26.290 --> 28:28.230
Yes, but I think you didn't understand
what I said.

28:28.610 --> 28:30.210
I said on the one side, there is evidence.

28:30.650 --> 28:33.750
On the other side, there is a looking for
apparent lack of evidence.

28:33.890 --> 28:34.810
There is no positive evidence.

28:34.810 --> 28:36.610
But that is what science is about.

28:37.010 --> 28:41.210
Science is taking a theory and challenging
it to see if it can stand up.

28:41.330 --> 28:41.750
That's right.

28:41.750 --> 28:49.330
And so, while people may not like when the
evidence doesn't stand up to further

28:49.330 --> 28:52.530
testing, but that's what science is about.

28:52.630 --> 28:56.110
Yes, well, that is what science is about,
but there are no cases, known to me at

28:56.110 --> 29:01.050
least, where science... where it doesn't
stand up.

29:01.170 --> 29:05.630
There are cases where work needs to be
done, and of course, science flourishes on

29:05.630 --> 29:07.610
finding places where more work needs to be
done.

29:07.710 --> 29:08.710
That's how science advances.

29:08.710 --> 29:12.630
As you mentioned, what's known to you.

29:13.530 --> 29:18.710
And I think that's why we need a variety
of people looking at theories and

29:18.710 --> 29:19.530
challenging it.

29:19.590 --> 29:24.110
Because if it's one person who's dictating
what can be challenged or can't,

29:24.150 --> 29:27.530
or what evidence is substantial or not,
then we have a dictatorship.

29:27.530 --> 29:34.690
In science, scientists should be free to
challenge theories and not be hemmed in,

29:34.830 --> 29:40.450
not be restricted by the current zeitgeist
of those who are almost the high priests

29:40.450 --> 29:40.970
of science of that day.

29:40.970 --> 29:41.930
Well, that of course is right.

29:42.030 --> 29:43.010
I mean, I agree with that.

29:43.110 --> 29:47.150
But can you point to any positive
scientific evidence in favor of creation?

29:48.470 --> 29:51.310
I think the fact, as you pointed out,
DNA.

29:51.490 --> 29:54.250
I think DNA helps to show that each one of
us are individuals.

29:54.250 --> 29:57.770
Yes, but they have to be individuals for
evolution to work.

29:58.190 --> 30:00.370
I don't think that's the case.

30:00.510 --> 30:07.150
I think that the fact that each one of us
are distinct, that no two of us are

30:07.150 --> 30:12.850
exactly alike, that that helps to show
that there is some intervention at the

30:12.850 --> 30:14.550
point of each person's creation.

30:15.050 --> 30:19.030
Do you know about the Darwinian theory,
that it's about individual variation being

30:19.030 --> 30:19.450
selected?

30:19.930 --> 30:23.350
There has to be individual variation or
Darwinism wouldn't work.

30:23.350 --> 30:28.630
What also seems to be shown in the
scientific evidence is that mutations die

30:28.630 --> 30:29.110
out.

30:29.730 --> 30:35.870
And we don't have good evidence of
positive mutations being the ones that are

30:35.870 --> 30:36.530
then built on.

30:36.610 --> 30:38.490
Because if they're a mutation,
they're alone.

30:39.150 --> 30:43.910
So in order for something to rise up and
have more of it, you need to have a good

30:43.910 --> 30:46.510
base to choose from.

30:46.510 --> 30:50.710
For example, a recessive gene in a person.

30:51.510 --> 30:55.310
Both parents may have brown eyes,
and yet a child may have blue eyes.

30:55.650 --> 31:00.030
And that's because there's enough of the
gene in their ancestors to have brought

31:00.030 --> 31:01.430
out that recessive gene.

31:01.970 --> 31:03.650
And that's evidence against evolution.

31:03.650 --> 31:08.610
I think that shows, that helps to show the
individual nature of each person.

31:09.470 --> 31:18.050
That God created us with genes,
with DNA, and that He'll even use that to

31:18.050 --> 31:21.970
show His creative element in each person.

31:22.210 --> 31:27.730
The fact that you can have two people,
a man and a woman, could have 13 children,

31:27.850 --> 31:32.570
16 children, and each one is completely
distinct from one another.

31:33.230 --> 31:39.690
That shows that even though they came from
a common parentage, that yet there's still

31:39.690 --> 31:43.390
a creative element for each one of those
human beings.

31:43.770 --> 31:46.930
Do you actually know what Darwin's theory
of natural selection is?

31:47.910 --> 31:53.690
I think I know enough, because it gets
pounded into us by those who simply won't

31:53.690 --> 31:55.250
allow for other information.

31:55.410 --> 31:59.350
I won't do any pounding, but just let me
tell you what it is.

31:59.350 --> 32:01.550
There is individual variation.

32:01.850 --> 32:05.910
Every individual, apart from monozygotic
twins, is different from every other

32:05.910 --> 32:06.330
individual.

32:06.630 --> 32:09.430
That's absolutely fundamental to the
Darwinian theory.

32:09.990 --> 32:14.250
Now what happens is that among that
variety of individuals, some survive

32:14.250 --> 32:16.410
better than others, some reproduce better
than others.

32:16.830 --> 32:18.030
That's how we get evolution.

32:18.330 --> 32:22.790
You couldn't have evolution unless there
was individual variation.

32:23.170 --> 32:27.250
You must not keep thinking that because
there's individual variation, that's

32:27.250 --> 32:28.770
somehow evidence against evolution.

32:28.770 --> 32:32.910
So I come back to you, and why do you
reject the idea that there is a creator

32:32.910 --> 32:37.130
who's involved in the creation of human
beings, whether it was the initial

32:37.130 --> 32:42.470
creation and then he left, or is involved
in the creation of each human being who's

32:42.470 --> 32:43.230
ever lived on earth?

32:43.250 --> 32:48.890
As I've said, there are plenty of ways in
which God could be involved in creation of

32:48.890 --> 32:54.730
the universe, in creation of life,
but Darwinian natural selection demands

32:54.730 --> 32:56.110
individual variation.

32:56.110 --> 33:01.570
That's why you must stop using individual
variation as evidence against evolution.

33:01.690 --> 33:02.950
It's evidence for evolution.

33:03.210 --> 33:12.330
Once I was going through the Smithsonian
Natural History Museum with dear relatives

33:12.330 --> 33:17.310
of mine, and one of them was a severely
handicapped little girl who can't do

33:17.310 --> 33:18.370
anything for herself.

33:18.750 --> 33:22.850
She can't talk, she can't walk,
she can't feed herself, she can barely sit

33:22.850 --> 33:23.070
up.

33:23.070 --> 33:27.130
And when a person, one of the people I was
with, turned to me and said, do you

33:27.130 --> 33:27.790
believe in evolution?

33:27.950 --> 33:33.450
And I said, I think this little girl is a
perfect example of why evolution is wrong.

33:34.490 --> 33:41.130
Because here's someone who cannot take
care of herself, and yet she has a spirit.

33:41.810 --> 33:43.710
She's not just a material being.

33:44.150 --> 33:49.250
And that's one difference I find between
the ideology of Darwinism and evolution,

33:49.250 --> 33:55.870
and those who believe in a loving God,
is the idea of a spirit and a soul that is

33:55.870 --> 33:56.550
not material.

33:57.310 --> 34:00.430
And it's something that makes us distinct
from animals.

34:01.150 --> 34:05.310
Do you think that children should be
taught critical thinking at school?

34:05.510 --> 34:12.930
In fact, what we argue for is that
children should be taught evidence so that

34:12.930 --> 34:17.930
they can decide for themselves,
so they can figure out for themselves what

34:17.930 --> 34:18.470
is truth.

34:18.470 --> 34:19.030
Right.

34:19.350 --> 34:22.350
Do you understand what I was saying when I
was explaining about natural selection

34:22.350 --> 34:23.830
requiring individual variation?

34:24.070 --> 34:24.850
I do.

34:25.010 --> 34:30.570
But I also come back, and I haven't heard
you answer, whether you have a problem

34:30.570 --> 34:35.370
with this idea of God being involved in
the creation of each individual human

34:35.370 --> 34:38.590
being, not just perhaps being the one that
got it all started.

34:39.130 --> 34:41.670
Well, I do have a problem with that,
because I've seen the evidence,

34:41.790 --> 34:45.970
and I know that individual variation comes
from genetics, it comes from DNA,

34:46.110 --> 34:50.330
and I know where it comes from,
and it's a very well-worked-out story,

34:50.450 --> 34:51.910
it's in every textbook.

34:52.210 --> 34:54.190
I mean, we differ because we have
different genes.

34:54.310 --> 34:58.470
Do you believe in a spirit or a soul?

34:59.270 --> 35:04.550
I believe in a spirit or a soul in the
sense of my own consciousness,

35:04.810 --> 35:10.170
which is a manifestation of my neurons and
my brain physiology.

35:10.570 --> 35:15.490
I don't believe I have an immortal soul,
no, but that's my personal belief.

35:15.690 --> 35:21.950
And what about a disabled person who is
severely mentally disabled and is not able

35:21.950 --> 35:22.910
to make choices?

35:23.570 --> 35:25.630
Do they have a spirit or are they a human
being?

35:26.330 --> 35:27.350
They're a human being.

35:27.430 --> 35:29.130
They belong to the species Homo sapiens.

35:29.270 --> 35:32.830
Their ancestry is Homo sapiens,
so of course they're human beings,

35:32.870 --> 35:33.130
yes.

35:33.570 --> 35:35.490
And do they have a spirit or a soul?

35:35.490 --> 35:37.590
It's not a meaningful word.

35:38.510 --> 35:43.170
They have a spirit or a soul in just the
same sense as I have, but I only have a

35:43.170 --> 35:48.610
spirit or a soul in a very much different
meaning than your meaning.

35:48.690 --> 35:51.530
The way I understood you to say it,
it's because of your conscious,

35:52.310 --> 35:55.150
or even your consciousness, which would be
different things.

35:55.430 --> 36:03.330
But for someone, though, who is not
capable of making decisions, do they have

36:03.330 --> 36:04.150
a spirit or a soul?

36:04.150 --> 36:08.430
Well, if you mean somebody whose brain is
so disabled that they have no

36:08.430 --> 36:11.550
consciousness at all, then they have no
consciousness.

36:11.710 --> 36:12.630
I've answered your question.

36:12.790 --> 36:16.990
Well, no, because a spirit or a soul is
different.

36:17.270 --> 36:18.110
That's your word.

36:18.230 --> 36:21.170
It's not a word that I acknowledge or
recognize as a meaningful word.

36:21.210 --> 36:24.730
From what I understand you're saying,
then, if someone does not have the ability

36:24.730 --> 36:28.530
to be conscious, then they would not have
a spirit or soul.

36:29.830 --> 36:35.830
A human placenta is a genetical identical
twin to the baby that it nourished.

36:36.370 --> 36:39.430
I don't think either of us would wish to
say that it has a spirit or a soul,

36:39.510 --> 36:40.490
because it doesn't have a brain.

36:41.310 --> 36:46.930
So, if only a being that has a material...
well, let me back up on that.

36:47.210 --> 36:51.990
It's the material, the matter,
the brain, or the consciousness.

36:51.990 --> 36:54.650
Well, let me back up, because those are
two separate things.

36:55.270 --> 36:59.710
I guess I'm confused in what you're
saying, that a brain means you have a

36:59.710 --> 37:00.090
soul.

37:01.250 --> 37:03.870
A consciousness means you have a soul.

37:04.310 --> 37:08.670
But someone whose brain is not
functioning, would they then not have a

37:08.670 --> 37:08.890
soul?

37:10.370 --> 37:15.170
Someone who didn't have a brain that was
capable of consciousness, somebody who was

37:15.170 --> 37:21.290
a human vegetable in effect, would not
have the properties that you call a soul,

37:21.510 --> 37:24.310
and that I might call a soul for the sake
of argument.

37:24.510 --> 37:25.530
But I don't think it's immortal.

37:25.650 --> 37:26.870
That's the main difference between us.

37:26.870 --> 37:31.450
And I think that's very key, because that
then would work out in how you and I,

37:31.550 --> 37:34.070
or someone who believes like you do and
someone who believes like I do,

37:34.150 --> 37:39.270
would treat someone who is in what's been
called a very... I think it's a horrible

37:39.270 --> 37:40.650
term, but a vegetative state.

37:41.330 --> 37:46.530
That we would still treat that human being
as a person who's deserving of loving

37:46.530 --> 37:51.250
respect, that should be fed and cared for,
even though they can't for themselves.

37:51.350 --> 37:55.610
How would you treat a chimpanzee who was
in full command of her faculties?

37:55.610 --> 37:57.350
Yes, and that's where we would differ.

37:57.490 --> 38:01.550
We believe that human beings have souls,
have spirits, and that animals should

38:01.550 --> 38:03.070
absolutely are cared for.

38:03.490 --> 38:09.810
That's a great teaching that comes from
our beliefs, that we care for animals.

38:10.110 --> 38:14.830
But we recognize that there's a difference
between animals and humans, and one of the

38:14.830 --> 38:16.990
differences is a spirit.

38:16.990 --> 38:22.130
Wendy, you use the word we quite often for
people who think like you, so would it be

38:22.130 --> 38:25.570
right that the CWA is part of a sort of
wider constituency within America?

38:25.790 --> 38:31.570
Yes, we represent 500,000 ourselves,
but that's just a drop in the bucket of

38:31.570 --> 38:33.630
the number of people who believe
similarly.

38:33.630 --> 38:39.430
And we find that as these challenges come
up, say in school districts, that there

38:39.430 --> 38:46.610
are a number of parents and families and
communities who will rise up in concern

38:46.610 --> 38:51.730
over the fact that only evolution is
allowed to be taught, and not the

38:51.730 --> 38:52.890
questioning of evolution.

38:52.890 --> 38:56.110
So it's quite widespread in the United
States.

38:56.350 --> 39:02.870
The belief that human beings are distinct
is a widespread belief in the United

39:02.870 --> 39:03.230
States.

39:03.790 --> 39:08.470
And that's remarkable because evolution
has been so heavily taught in the last

39:08.470 --> 39:15.970
number of decades, and the fact that it's
being taught so strongly and isolated from

39:15.970 --> 39:20.750
other information or evidence,
and yet many people continue to believe

39:20.750 --> 39:25.630
that God has a hand in creating us,
I think helps to show that people are

39:25.630 --> 39:26.930
using their critical factories.

39:27.190 --> 39:29.710
They're not just believing what's being
taught in the schools.

39:30.690 --> 39:35.710
And that evolutionism is going to continue
to have a bit of a challenge here in the

39:35.710 --> 39:36.890
United States and beyond.

39:37.670 --> 39:40.950
I've been reading your website,
and I get the feeling there's almost a

39:40.950 --> 39:43.770
feeling of sort of persecution.

39:44.030 --> 39:49.210
I mean, as though somehow you feel that
the establishment in the United States is

39:49.210 --> 39:51.070
against Christianity.

39:51.210 --> 39:55.170
That puzzles me a bit because,
I mean, you've got the White House,

39:55.270 --> 39:59.310
you've got the Supreme Court, you've
got... well, you've had both houses of

39:59.310 --> 40:00.930
Congress until quite recently.

40:00.930 --> 40:06.010
How can you feel persecuted in the face of
this overwhelming Christian dominance in

40:06.010 --> 40:06.650
the United States?

40:09.290 --> 40:13.930
Many Christians have experienced the
hostility toward our beliefs, but beyond

40:13.930 --> 40:17.850
hostility, the attempts to even censor and
punish us for our beliefs.

40:18.630 --> 40:23.350
And the price of liberty is eternal
vigilance, that we must continue to fight

40:23.350 --> 40:26.250
for our freedom in order to have it.

40:26.250 --> 40:31.630
And even though some may believe that the
three branches of government reflect our

40:31.630 --> 40:34.830
views, that's not necessarily the case.

40:35.610 --> 40:38.230
But let me give you my own experiences.

40:38.790 --> 40:43.490
A number of years ago, I was praying in
public across the street from an abortion

40:43.490 --> 40:47.190
clinic and was sentenced to six months in
jail for simply praying.

40:47.830 --> 40:49.290
It's these kinds of experiences...

40:49.810 --> 40:52.590
Excuse me, you were sentenced to six
months in jail for praying?

40:52.650 --> 40:53.250
For praying.

40:53.490 --> 40:55.250
Could we get a bit more detail about that?

40:55.250 --> 40:55.790
Sure.

40:55.790 --> 41:01.110
A judge had signed an injunction stating
that certain things could not be done

41:01.110 --> 41:04.790
within 100 feet of abortion clinics in
that city in Houston.

41:05.390 --> 41:11.410
And so four of us knelt and prayed across
the street from the clinic and the judge

41:11.410 --> 41:13.690
sentenced us to six months in jail and a
$500 fine.

41:13.710 --> 41:14.750
What law was that?

41:14.750 --> 41:16.370
It was an injunction.

41:17.010 --> 41:19.430
And an injunction is essentially a
judge-made law.

41:19.630 --> 41:21.130
It only applies to certain people.

41:21.770 --> 41:25.690
I was not named on the injunction and yet
the judge found me guilty of it.

41:26.090 --> 41:28.770
Thankfully, she was overturned by a higher
court.

41:29.250 --> 41:33.850
But there are experiences like that
throughout the United States where certain

41:33.850 --> 41:40.770
people are told and punished for acting
out their beliefs.

41:40.770 --> 41:46.250
And it's those kinds of cases that make us
very sensitive to protecting all of our

41:46.250 --> 41:46.590
liberties.

41:47.210 --> 41:50.290
I kind of have a feeling the context must
have been... had that abortion clinic been

41:50.290 --> 41:52.730
threatened with firebombing or anything
like that?

41:52.790 --> 41:54.410
No, it had not.

41:55.390 --> 41:58.470
There were protests that were going on
during that time.

41:58.930 --> 42:03.370
Now, the abortion clinic had argued to the
judge that women would be intimidated from

42:03.370 --> 42:05.850
coming into the clinic if there were
protesters outside.

42:05.850 --> 42:10.410
Well, at the same time that four of us
were quietly kneeling in prayer with no

42:10.410 --> 42:14.890
signs or anything like that, there were
about a hundred pro-abortion demonstrators

42:14.890 --> 42:18.190
in front of the clinic blocking the
entrance, screaming and yelling with signs

42:18.190 --> 42:18.930
and bullhorns.

42:19.490 --> 42:23.890
But it was those of us who were quietly
kneeling in prayer who were sentenced to

42:23.890 --> 42:24.750
six months in jail.

42:24.750 --> 42:30.270
So I think maybe you can understand then
why we are so sensitive to wanting to

42:30.270 --> 42:35.170
protect our religious freedoms and the
ability to act on our consciences because

42:35.170 --> 42:40.290
we do have cases like this where people
have been punished for acting on their

42:40.290 --> 42:40.630
beliefs.

42:41.170 --> 42:44.730
Yes, I can't comment on a particular
anecdote like that, of course.

42:44.730 --> 42:49.750
I just want to come back one more time to
the idea of teaching the controversy.

42:50.450 --> 42:55.470
In science we are well used to controversy
and we have controversy all the time.

42:56.050 --> 42:59.810
Since Darwin's time, plenty of things that
Darwin thought have now been shown to be

42:59.810 --> 43:00.010
wrong.

43:00.110 --> 43:03.170
I mean, Darwin was completely wrong about
genetics, for example.

43:03.950 --> 43:07.690
And so there are modern controversies in
Darwinism.

43:08.070 --> 43:11.890
There are controversies between people who
think that natural selection is all

43:11.890 --> 43:13.510
important in driving evolution.

43:14.550 --> 43:18.650
And there are people who think that
natural selection is only part of it and

43:18.650 --> 43:20.390
that there are other things that drive
evolution.

43:20.810 --> 43:23.790
Nobody seriously doubts the fact of
evolution, but there are controversies

43:23.790 --> 43:29.070
about whether evolution is largely driven
by natural selection or only partly driven

43:29.070 --> 43:31.010
by natural selection, for example.

43:31.330 --> 43:34.990
There are controversies about whether
evolution goes smoothly and continuously

43:34.990 --> 43:39.550
or whether it goes in jumps, whether there
are sort of long periods where not much

43:39.550 --> 43:40.510
evolution happens.

43:40.510 --> 43:47.110
And then a rather sudden burst of
evolution, which represent a kind of step

43:47.110 --> 43:47.970
in the fossil record.

43:48.570 --> 43:53.350
Those are genuine controversies and of
course it's extremely right and proper

43:53.350 --> 43:56.430
that children should be taught those
controversies.

43:56.470 --> 44:00.570
But when you say teach the controversy,
by which I think you mean the controversy

44:00.570 --> 44:05.770
between science on the one hand and
probably biblical creation on the other,

44:06.170 --> 44:08.310
there are lots and lots of creation myths.

44:08.310 --> 44:11.930
I mean, the Genesis myth just happens to
be the Babylonian Jewish myth,

44:12.030 --> 44:16.150
which for historical accident reasons is
largely prevalent in the United States.

44:16.470 --> 44:20.010
But I mean, why not teach the Hindu myth
that we're the product of a cosmic butter

44:20.010 --> 44:23.290
churn or an Australian aboriginal myth
that we come from the green time?

44:23.750 --> 44:26.430
Why pick on the Judeo-Christian Babylonian
myth?

44:26.670 --> 44:30.870
Well, we have argued when we say teach the
controversies, teach the controversies in

44:30.870 --> 44:36.050
evolution and to teach the evidence that
shows intelligent design.

44:36.050 --> 44:41.870
I'm not aware of people arguing that in
public schools it ought to be taught the

44:41.870 --> 44:44.010
biblical accounts of creation.

44:44.970 --> 44:52.950
So when we say teach the controversy,
we mean teach all the evidence,

44:53.890 --> 44:59.030
including the evidence that goes against
evolution, teach the evidence for

44:59.030 --> 45:00.210
intelligent design.

45:00.770 --> 45:03.070
Who do you think the intelligent designer
was?

45:04.430 --> 45:08.330
Well, see, that's something that I think
scientists can debate.

45:08.690 --> 45:13.870
But the idea that there was an intelligent
design to the process.

45:13.990 --> 45:17.990
In fact, what you've mentioned regarding
even natural selection and that there

45:17.990 --> 45:24.610
could be somebody or something that put
all these laws in place that now the world

45:24.610 --> 45:32.490
is operating off of, does back up this
idea that there was a being, an

45:32.490 --> 45:36.410
intelligent being, that caused all this,
the whole world, to happen.

45:36.650 --> 45:36.950
Yes.

45:37.170 --> 45:38.270
I mean, that's what a bishop might say.

45:38.330 --> 45:43.390
I wouldn't say that, but there are plenty
of Christians who would say that.

45:43.630 --> 45:47.750
Wouldn't your life be a lot easier if you
went along with the bishops and said the

45:47.750 --> 45:51.790
evidence in favor of the fact of evolution
is overwhelming, so let's accept it and

45:51.790 --> 45:52.830
bring God in there?

45:52.830 --> 46:00.750
I think one issue is this idea that we
take orders from a hierarchy.

46:01.190 --> 46:02.290
Okay, no, that's fair.

46:02.310 --> 46:06.650
And there are some bishops that believe
like you do and there are other bishops

46:06.650 --> 46:08.430
that don't, that believe differently.

46:08.970 --> 46:14.450
And so it's easy to select those who
believe like you do and rely wholly as if

46:14.450 --> 46:15.890
they speak for everyone.

46:16.070 --> 46:16.310
Yes.

46:16.390 --> 46:18.770
But those bishops don't speak for all
Christian leaders.

46:18.770 --> 46:22.890
I mean, I accept that and I would hate to
suggest that you take orders from

46:22.890 --> 46:23.530
authority.

46:24.810 --> 46:26.870
I do want you to look at the facts a bit
more, though.

46:26.970 --> 46:28.570
I mean, they are actually very
interesting.

46:28.710 --> 46:29.550
I mean, you'd be fascinated.

46:29.730 --> 46:30.630
Just read a book.

46:30.730 --> 46:37.030
Yes, I think, well, I find that to be
quite demeaning to claim that we don't

46:37.030 --> 46:42.590
read, that we don't read books or that we
don't know what evolution is, when in fact

46:42.590 --> 46:46.650
most of us have been through the museums
that you and your folks have put together.

46:46.970 --> 46:47.230
Yes.

46:47.230 --> 46:53.110
It probably would be helpful to the
dialogue if the evolutionists were not so

46:53.110 --> 46:55.430
demeaning and degrading to others.

46:55.910 --> 46:59.170
And again, I kind of go back to perhaps
that comes out of the philosophy of

46:59.170 --> 47:02.350
evolution, that some people are better
than others.

47:02.590 --> 47:06.710
You said there was no evidence of
intermediates in evolution and I told you

47:06.710 --> 47:08.430
about five fossils.

47:08.430 --> 47:13.570
And what I say, if those were valid,
there would be tons of evidence.

47:13.770 --> 47:14.030
There is.

47:14.270 --> 47:18.570
Because there are so many different
species that there ought to be tons of

47:18.570 --> 47:18.810
evidence.

47:18.930 --> 47:24.550
Even, let's say, for one percent of the
macro evolution that's taken place,

47:24.670 --> 47:25.310
there should be evidence.

47:25.430 --> 47:29.470
But there's not even one percent,
let alone ten or fifty or seventy percent.

47:29.950 --> 47:31.510
There is a massive amount of evidence.

47:31.870 --> 47:36.210
You just need to go into the books and go
into the museums and look at it.

47:36.710 --> 47:37.370
It's there.

47:37.370 --> 47:40.650
You're believing in people who are telling
you there's only one percent.

47:40.910 --> 47:48.430
And again, I go back to, it's very
demeaning to say that we only believe what

47:48.430 --> 47:50.030
we believe because we've been told that.

47:50.130 --> 47:54.910
And yet, we have evolutionary scientists
who want to be the ones to tell all of

47:54.910 --> 47:59.350
society what is fact and what's not fact
and to censor out information that is

47:59.350 --> 47:59.550
inconvenient.

48:00.070 --> 48:01.590
I'm asking you to go look at the facts.

48:01.670 --> 48:02.670
I don't want you to believe me.

48:02.750 --> 48:03.570
Just go look at the facts.

48:03.570 --> 48:04.790
Yes, and I have.

48:05.350 --> 48:13.710
And again, I go back to, let's look at the
differences of what your philosophy lives

48:13.710 --> 48:18.730
out, the evolutionary philosophy,
and how does that end up working out in a

48:18.730 --> 48:19.170
society.

48:19.670 --> 48:25.730
I've accepted that if we worked out
society on Darwinian grounds, it would be

48:25.730 --> 48:29.270
a very, very unpleasant right-wing
society.

48:29.450 --> 48:30.450
I've accepted that.

48:30.450 --> 48:32.230
Well, I don't know right-wing.

48:32.370 --> 48:37.150
Again, it seems to be that you fall back
on ad hominem, name-calling.

48:37.490 --> 48:38.590
All right, then, free market.

48:39.110 --> 48:39.810
Free market.

48:40.770 --> 48:42.350
Ruthless trampling on the poor.

48:43.130 --> 48:44.310
That's what it would be like.

48:44.310 --> 48:45.050
What I find interesting, though,
is...

48:45.050 --> 48:46.330
We don't want a Darwinian society.

48:46.530 --> 48:47.830
I don't want a Darwinian society.

48:47.830 --> 48:53.330
Communism was based on atheistic beliefs
and evolutionary beliefs, and communism

48:53.330 --> 48:58.330
resulted in a decade that had more deaths,
over 100 million deaths committed because

48:58.330 --> 49:04.590
of communism, than all the killings
combined of every century prior to that.

49:04.590 --> 49:11.610
So, when you talk about socialism,
which is a close cousin to communism,

49:11.810 --> 49:18.290
being a better way of life, I look back on
what beliefs was communism and socialism

49:18.290 --> 49:24.050
based on, and the atheistic belief that
human beings are not distinct and should

49:24.050 --> 49:25.230
not be respected.

49:25.570 --> 49:28.070
When you say distinct, do you mean
distinct from each other, or do you mean

49:28.070 --> 49:29.970
when human beings are not distinct from
each other?

49:29.970 --> 49:35.350
That human beings are created as distinct
from one another and should be treated

49:35.350 --> 49:41.370
with respect, even if they are not
utilitarian, even if they are not able to

49:41.370 --> 49:43.050
provide something to society.

49:43.370 --> 49:47.250
The atheistic belief, the evolutionary
belief, is that you're unnecessary and

49:47.250 --> 49:52.150
unneeded if you cannot provide something
for society.

49:52.150 --> 49:54.650
Ah, that's an extraordinary thing to say.

49:54.910 --> 49:57.130
I mean, you equated atheistic with
evolutionary.

49:57.310 --> 49:59.210
That means that's wiping out most of the
bishops.

49:59.830 --> 50:01.430
They wouldn't take very kindly to that.

50:01.490 --> 50:01.830
I know not all bishops do.

50:01.830 --> 50:06.890
Well, and I recognize that there are
varying degrees within the evolutionary

50:06.890 --> 50:07.250
beliefs.

50:07.390 --> 50:12.390
It's the hardcore evolutionists that
reject the idea of a creator, that then

50:12.390 --> 50:15.430
pave the foundation for very brutal
societies.

50:16.270 --> 50:21.170
Well, I have accepted that if we were to
base our societies on Darwinian

50:21.170 --> 50:23.730
principles, they would be brutal,
harsh, and unpleasant.

50:24.190 --> 50:28.170
I have told you that I want not to live in
a Darwinian society.

50:28.370 --> 50:31.730
I've suggested to you that it might be a
good idea to learn something about

50:31.730 --> 50:35.210
Darwinism so as to know what to avoid in
setting up society.

50:35.210 --> 50:40.530
And it would be helpful to learn what are
the characteristics that make a successful

50:40.530 --> 50:41.910
and healthy society.

50:42.250 --> 50:44.790
And let's build on those characteristics.

50:45.770 --> 50:46.690
I agree with that.

50:46.790 --> 50:50.570
And among those characteristics would be
critical thinking, a respect for

50:50.570 --> 50:52.570
education, a respect for evidence...

50:52.570 --> 50:53.650
And respect for human beings.

50:53.810 --> 50:55.690
And a respect for human beings,
very much so.

50:55.970 --> 50:59.170
Regardless of whether they can provide for
society or provide something to society.

50:59.170 --> 50:59.610
Yes, indeed.

50:59.790 --> 51:03.070
That's the essence of the liberal
philosophy which I espouse.

51:03.490 --> 51:06.870
That human beings should be respected,
their health should be taken care of...

51:06.870 --> 51:09.170
Even if they don't have a functioning
brain that is conscious.

51:09.230 --> 51:09.230
Yes.

51:09.230 --> 51:13.130
Their hospital care should be taken care
of by the state.

51:13.590 --> 51:15.510
That's a liberal principle which I
espouse.

51:15.610 --> 51:17.050
It's an un-Darwinian principle.

51:17.050 --> 51:20.670
See, I believe that it's not a state,
because a state is an institution or an

51:20.670 --> 51:20.930
entity.

51:21.070 --> 51:23.810
It's human beings that provide care for
others.

51:24.450 --> 51:26.670
Well, okay, human beings provide care for
others.

51:27.010 --> 51:31.310
None of that bears on the truth of whether
evolution actually happened.

51:31.870 --> 51:33.170
And that is a matter of fact.

51:33.250 --> 51:33.990
It's like gravity.

51:34.450 --> 51:35.810
You can't get away from fact.

51:36.230 --> 51:37.030
Study the fact.

51:37.270 --> 51:38.030
Learn the facts.

51:38.430 --> 51:43.850
And then make up the society that you want
to live in on the basis of the facts as

51:43.850 --> 51:44.470
they are.

51:45.230 --> 51:50.530
And the facts that would include what
makes a better society is one where there

51:50.530 --> 51:53.190
is deep respect for each human being.

51:54.550 --> 51:56.310
And all for deep respect for each human
being.

51:56.330 --> 52:03.130
And the way to inculcate respect for human
beings is by seeing that they were created

52:03.130 --> 52:04.130
by a loving creator.

52:04.130 --> 52:08.350
Would you actually distort the scientific
fact in order to create respect for human

52:08.350 --> 52:08.350
beings?

52:08.350 --> 52:13.790
There's no need to distort, because as I
mentioned, science is a technique,

52:13.910 --> 52:19.950
a tactic, for discovering and unlocking
the keys of how this world works.

52:20.450 --> 52:28.110
And so we don't need to deny any facts,
because the facts end up bearing out our

52:28.110 --> 52:28.590
beliefs.

52:29.270 --> 52:37.850
Sometimes it takes time for science to
catch up with the beliefs that have made

52:37.850 --> 52:38.930
the best societies.

52:39.530 --> 52:44.790
Sometimes it takes a while for science to
stumble across something and take the

52:44.790 --> 52:47.350
wrong interpretation from it and build a
philosophy on it.

52:47.530 --> 52:52.410
And then later realize, oops, that wasn't
correct.

52:52.410 --> 52:59.350
So science oftentimes changes its own
beliefs based on new evidence that comes

52:59.350 --> 52:59.770
forward.

53:00.050 --> 53:05.790
But oftentimes what ends up happening is,
as science progresses, it backs up the

53:05.790 --> 53:08.090
belief that there's an intelligent
designer.

53:08.510 --> 53:11.970
Science proceeds by what the philosopher
Karl Popper called conjectures and

53:11.970 --> 53:12.610
refutations.

53:12.890 --> 53:17.170
You have an idea, you have a hypothesis,
and then you see if you can refute it.

53:17.170 --> 53:25.150
And a theory, a well-substantiated theory,
is always one that has yet to be refuted.

53:25.630 --> 53:32.550
So the more a theory has been attempted to
be refuted and has yet to come through

53:32.550 --> 53:35.530
with flying colors, the more accepted it
is.

53:35.790 --> 53:39.890
And after a point, de facto, it gets
called a fact.

53:39.890 --> 53:45.430
The theory that the Earth goes around the
Sun is only a theory.

53:45.770 --> 53:49.730
It's only a theory, but it's never been
refuted, and we all know it never will be

53:49.730 --> 53:50.330
refuted.

53:50.930 --> 53:52.230
That's how science proceeds.

53:52.770 --> 53:54.510
It's conjecture and refutation.

53:55.230 --> 53:56.890
That's the state that evolution is in.

53:57.010 --> 53:59.290
It's a bit like the theory that the Earth
goes around the Sun.

53:59.690 --> 54:04.610
It is only a theory, but to a scientist
that can mean, in this case does mean,

54:04.990 --> 54:06.190
that it's never been refuted.

54:06.190 --> 54:11.830
And the more it goes on from decade to
decade to decade and is not refuted,

54:12.030 --> 54:16.310
the more closely does it approximate to
what everybody calls a fact.

54:16.510 --> 54:20.330
Then evolutionists should have no problem
with there being questioning of it and

54:20.330 --> 54:25.250
challenging of it and to be willing to
teach the challenges to it.

54:25.650 --> 54:28.810
To be willing to talk about the evidence
against it.

54:29.170 --> 54:32.890
And that's where I find the hardcore
evolutionists have a bit of a problem.

54:32.890 --> 54:36.470
It's like an oak tree in a storm.

54:36.650 --> 54:41.110
Because it is so rigid, it's more likely
to then fall and break.

54:41.470 --> 54:49.250
Whereas those that are more open to being
challenged can then bend with the facts

54:49.250 --> 54:50.030
that come forward.

54:50.590 --> 54:56.250
So that's why what many of us in the
United States are arguing for,

54:56.610 --> 54:58.650
teach the controversies in the schools.

54:58.650 --> 55:03.710
Allow the information that shows the flaws
in evolution to be taught.

55:04.390 --> 55:10.450
Don't blackball scientists who may not
agree wholeheartedly with the hardcore

55:10.450 --> 55:14.250
version of evolution to be blackballed out
of the profession.

55:15.570 --> 55:21.610
Allow people to have enough respect for
people to allow them to have all the

55:21.610 --> 55:23.330
information so they can make up their own
minds.

55:23.330 --> 55:25.050
It's a difficult question, this thing
about blackballing.

55:25.890 --> 55:27.810
It's a nasty idea to blackball,
of course.

55:28.210 --> 55:33.290
What about somebody who's teaching
geography, who believes in the flat earth?

55:33.470 --> 55:34.530
Would you blackball them?

55:36.430 --> 55:38.590
Well, always extreme cases are used.

55:38.750 --> 55:41.150
That's not what we're facing here in the
United States.

55:41.230 --> 55:45.070
What we're facing are scientists who may
not agree wholeheartedly with the hardcore

55:45.070 --> 55:46.390
view of evolution.

55:46.830 --> 55:48.090
Who do believe in intelligence design.

55:48.210 --> 55:49.590
They're being denied their careers.

55:49.590 --> 55:55.310
So it's better to argue from the facts of
what's happening rather than some

55:55.310 --> 55:55.890
hypothetical.

55:56.230 --> 55:56.430
Okay.

55:57.130 --> 55:58.430
Let's take intelligent design.

55:58.530 --> 56:03.390
I mean, the leading intelligent design
proponents in this country believe in

56:03.390 --> 56:03.710
evolution.

56:03.930 --> 56:07.850
They believe that we're cousins of
chimpanzees, we're cousins of kangaroos,

56:07.930 --> 56:08.170
etc.

56:08.610 --> 56:11.950
But what they don't believe is that God is
completely absent from the process.

56:12.070 --> 56:15.730
So they believe in evolution, but they
believe that God, as it were, helped

56:15.730 --> 56:17.090
evolution over the difficult jumps.

56:17.090 --> 56:21.670
There are some things that they call
irreducibly complex, and scientists

56:21.670 --> 56:23.430
dispute that they're irreducibly complex.

56:23.590 --> 56:25.570
But the point is they do believe in
evolution.

56:25.770 --> 56:29.530
They do believe that we're descended from
reptiles, for example.

56:30.290 --> 56:33.870
It's just that they think that God helped
over certain of the difficult stages.

56:35.310 --> 56:38.850
So it would be wonderful to interview them
and let them speak themselves,

56:39.110 --> 56:41.030
present their information and their
evidence.

56:41.210 --> 56:41.550
Yes.

56:41.550 --> 56:45.770
And to show that there are a variety of
views.

56:46.010 --> 56:51.170
And that's why the hardcore evolutionists
should not have a monopoly on what is

56:51.170 --> 56:55.130
allowed to be discussed or researched in
science.

56:55.350 --> 56:58.930
Would you accept... well, nobody's going
to make any restriction on what you're

56:58.930 --> 56:59.950
allowed to research, of course.

57:00.490 --> 57:04.050
Well, that's done, of course, through
funding, through grants, through positions

57:04.050 --> 57:05.210
at universities.

57:05.210 --> 57:07.770
There are ways to restrict what can and
can't be researched.

57:07.770 --> 57:12.430
Yes, funding of scientific research is
always a problem, and all scientists have

57:12.430 --> 57:15.070
a time when they grumble about not getting
funding.

57:15.390 --> 57:19.870
You're competing in a marketplace,
and the NSF and other grant-giving bodies

57:19.870 --> 57:24.430
have to give money where peer review
suggests it's going to be most useful.

57:24.550 --> 57:26.530
That is definitely a problem, of course.

57:27.250 --> 57:31.510
Would you accept that what you call
teaching the controversy should be done in

57:31.510 --> 57:36.210
classes of religion or classes of history
of ideas, rather than classes of science?

57:36.210 --> 57:41.910
Teaching the controversy refers to
teaching the evidence and the facts that

57:41.910 --> 57:43.810
dispute evolution.

57:44.030 --> 57:47.590
So it should be taught in the science
classes because it's teaching evidence.

57:48.090 --> 57:52.970
Yes, I mean, when I asked you about
evidence, you said there are no fossil

57:52.970 --> 57:53.690
intermediates.

57:53.770 --> 57:56.790
And when I told you about fossil
intermediates, you changed the subject.

57:56.790 --> 58:04.170
No, when I don't change the subject,
what I say is that if there had been

58:04.170 --> 58:07.750
evolution from slime to human beings,
there would be a massive amount of

58:07.750 --> 58:21.790
evidence showing interspecies,
from one macrospecies to another.

58:21.790 --> 58:27.570
And that's where I find the concept of
evolution lacking.

58:28.130 --> 58:31.210
And so the burden really is on the
evolutionists.

58:31.690 --> 58:34.810
Oftentimes it's been thrown back at us
that we just need to look at the

58:34.810 --> 58:35.330
information.

58:35.810 --> 58:40.890
But no, but let me throw it back on you
all to say, look, this is what's needed to

58:40.890 --> 58:41.790
convince us.

58:41.790 --> 58:48.290
So you need to come up with a large amount
of evidence to back up this claim that

58:48.290 --> 58:53.230
there's been a large progression of
macroevolution throughout the years.

58:53.490 --> 58:53.530
Yes.

58:53.890 --> 58:55.470
How are we going to make you look at it,
though?

58:55.490 --> 58:56.410
Because, I mean, I told you...

58:56.410 --> 58:57.390
Well, no, no, no, we look at it.

58:57.410 --> 58:58.070
We look at it.

58:58.090 --> 58:58.910
Again, when I go back to...

59:00.050 --> 59:07.010
It's easy to blame the other person and to
blame by saying that we're ignorant.

59:07.010 --> 59:11.830
But what I'm saying to you is,
if there were enough evidence,

59:11.890 --> 59:14.690
it would convince even...

59:15.570 --> 59:18.830
It will convince those who are open to the
information.

59:19.370 --> 59:24.050
There's such a vast number of people in
the United States and elsewhere who do

59:24.050 --> 59:27.390
believe in an intelligent design,
that there is a creator.

59:28.190 --> 59:32.550
If there was a vast amount of evidence,
solid evidence, to back up evolution,

59:33.110 --> 59:38.110
that would influence a significant number
of the vast number of people who believe

59:38.110 --> 59:39.030
in intelligent design.

59:39.330 --> 59:42.870
That sends me close to despair,
because the evidence is there.

59:43.030 --> 59:44.270
I mean, I keep telling you about it.

59:44.290 --> 59:46.110
Just let me tell you some of it.

59:46.210 --> 59:50.730
There is evidence from, for example,
the transition from fish coming out of the

59:50.730 --> 59:52.110
water onto the land.

59:52.350 --> 59:53.230
It's beautiful evidence.

59:53.330 --> 59:53.830
It's elegant.

59:54.130 --> 59:55.470
I mean, they're lovely fossils.

59:55.470 --> 59:59.850
Go to Philadelphia and have a look at the
wonderful fossil they've got there.

01:00:00.250 --> 01:00:03.430
I'm sure they have replicas in the
Smithsonian here.

01:00:04.270 --> 01:00:05.590
Just look at that evidence.

01:00:05.650 --> 01:00:06.190
It's beautiful.

01:00:06.290 --> 01:00:11.390
The evidence for the transition between
the reptilian jaw and the mammalian jaw.

01:00:11.490 --> 01:00:13.350
The reptilian jaw has several bones.

01:00:13.450 --> 01:00:15.170
The mammalian lower jaw has only one bone.

01:00:15.630 --> 01:00:20.230
And the other bones that were in the
reptile have now moved into the inner ear.

01:00:20.370 --> 01:00:21.590
It's a beautiful transition.

01:00:21.590 --> 01:00:24.950
So what is your cause in life?

01:00:25.610 --> 01:00:32.430
I would think that if your cause was to
convince others that evolution is correct,

01:00:32.850 --> 01:00:38.470
not just a theory but a fact, then you'd
be devoting yourself to finding this

01:00:38.470 --> 01:00:40.850
information and making it readily
available.

01:00:40.970 --> 01:00:45.690
What I find is that you're spending a lot
of time arguing with me, trying to

01:00:45.690 --> 01:00:51.770
convince me, instead of showing the
evidence or spending your time producing

01:00:51.770 --> 01:00:52.410
evidence.

01:00:52.830 --> 01:00:56.810
Was I not just telling you about fish that
are intermediate between the sea?

01:00:56.830 --> 01:01:03.350
But again, what I go back to is if there
was a large enough amount of evidence,

01:01:03.670 --> 01:01:08.550
which there should be, if we have gone
from slime to human beings, there should

01:01:08.550 --> 01:01:12.190
be an overwhelming amount of evidence,
not these isolated cases that could be

01:01:12.190 --> 01:01:13.370
interpreted differently.

01:01:14.300 --> 01:01:19.790
One problem that evolutionists have is
that in the past, when there's been great

01:01:19.790 --> 01:01:25.330
acclaim of a discovery to show from one
species to another, it's been proven to be

01:01:25.330 --> 01:01:25.930
fraudulent.

01:01:26.750 --> 01:01:30.970
So evolutionists have a problem in their
own history.

01:01:31.310 --> 01:01:37.690
The fact that there have been so many
cases of fraud or misinterpretation of

01:01:37.690 --> 01:01:42.810
information that now we have a problem
believing what you say.

01:01:42.810 --> 01:01:45.590
There was the Piltdown Man in the 1920s.

01:01:46.150 --> 01:01:48.810
I suggest we forget about the 1920s and
look at today.

01:01:48.990 --> 01:01:51.770
Go and look at some modern paleontology
labs.

01:01:51.890 --> 01:01:53.610
Go and talk to some modern
paleontologists.

01:01:54.330 --> 01:01:58.930
Go and talk to the people who are looking
at the transition from fish to amphibians.

01:01:59.050 --> 01:02:03.250
Go and look at the fossils about the human
transition.

01:02:03.690 --> 01:02:04.990
Look at the evolution of the horse.

01:02:05.090 --> 01:02:06.130
Look at the evolution of the elephant.

01:02:06.130 --> 01:02:07.890
Look at the evolution of the whale.

01:02:08.170 --> 01:02:09.810
There are so many beautiful stories.

01:02:09.930 --> 01:02:10.830
I mean, you would be fascinated.

01:02:11.170 --> 01:02:15.350
You would think that these fossil
histories are to the greater glory of God.

01:02:15.470 --> 01:02:25.050
So, would it make you happy if we were to
agree that there is some evidence

01:02:25.050 --> 01:02:26.230
regarding macroevolution?

01:02:27.370 --> 01:02:31.630
Would that alone make you happy or would
you still be unhappy and feel that your

01:02:31.630 --> 01:02:36.970
cause is unsuccessful if many of us still
believe that there is an intelligent being

01:02:36.970 --> 01:02:38.270
who caused this to happen?

01:02:38.290 --> 01:02:39.610
It would make me enormously happy.

01:02:39.730 --> 01:02:40.290
I would love it.

01:02:40.610 --> 01:02:43.770
If you said, yes, yes, yes, evolution is
obviously a fact.

01:02:43.870 --> 01:02:45.950
I accept evolution, but God did it.

01:02:46.370 --> 01:02:49.630
I mean, I wouldn't agree with that,
but it would make me hugely happy.

01:02:49.870 --> 01:02:51.370
At least you looked at the evidence.

01:02:51.670 --> 01:02:55.190
And I don't understand why that's so
important to you, that I believe exactly

01:02:55.190 --> 01:02:55.930
like you believe.

01:02:56.110 --> 01:02:56.390
No, no.

01:02:56.410 --> 01:02:57.210
It's not important to me.

01:02:57.910 --> 01:02:58.910
I am an educator.

01:02:59.130 --> 01:02:59.730
I'm a scientist.

01:03:00.050 --> 01:03:01.470
I'm a university professor.

01:03:01.610 --> 01:03:02.110
I teach.

01:03:02.110 --> 01:03:06.210
I love it when people see the beauty of
nature, the beauty of evidence,

01:03:06.790 --> 01:03:12.470
and just look at it and appreciate how
elegant it is.

01:03:12.510 --> 01:03:13.430
It really is beautiful.

01:03:13.530 --> 01:03:14.170
Look at it.

01:03:14.290 --> 01:03:17.510
And what is the danger in believing in an
intelligent designer?

01:03:17.990 --> 01:03:19.590
I don't think that's a danger.

01:03:20.810 --> 01:03:27.530
As an atheist, which I am, a very strong
atheist, I have a quite separate agenda.

01:03:27.670 --> 01:03:31.350
That is an agenda, but it's not my agenda
as a science educator.

01:03:31.350 --> 01:03:34.790
I'm now talking purely as a scientist and
a science educator.

01:03:35.070 --> 01:03:39.450
And I am distressed that somebody as
intelligent as you is refusing to look at

01:03:39.450 --> 01:03:39.890
the evidence.

01:03:40.030 --> 01:03:42.450
And what is your agenda as an atheist?

01:03:42.710 --> 01:03:45.550
Because that is going to influence the
work that you do.

01:03:45.970 --> 01:03:53.270
Well, I like to think it's not,
actually, but whatever I might say about

01:03:53.270 --> 01:03:53.520
that...

01:03:54.170 --> 01:03:58.530
I've done another television program about
that, and I was a very strong atheist in

01:03:58.530 --> 01:03:59.250
that program.

01:03:59.250 --> 01:04:04.190
This program is about Darwin, and there
are many Darwinians who are not atheists,

01:04:04.710 --> 01:04:08.330
and all I'm talking about now is the
factual evidence.

01:04:08.950 --> 01:04:14.070
And I'm suggesting to you that you might
do a better job for your religion if you

01:04:14.070 --> 01:04:18.230
would open your mind to the factual
evidence and realize that actually you

01:04:18.230 --> 01:04:23.050
could use the genuine scientific factual
evidence to the greater glory of your God,

01:04:23.310 --> 01:04:27.270
rather than running away from the
evidence.

01:04:27.270 --> 01:04:28.850
But again, that's where we differ.

01:04:29.310 --> 01:04:31.150
We don't believe we are running away from
the evidence.

01:04:31.330 --> 01:04:37.650
And what we are seeking to do is to help
people to understand who God is,

01:04:37.690 --> 01:04:38.550
that He's a loving God.

01:04:38.630 --> 01:04:44.010
And part of His love toward us is that He
created us, the fact that He wanted us to

01:04:44.010 --> 01:04:44.490
exist.

01:04:45.030 --> 01:04:46.950
Maybe He did it via evolution,
though.

01:04:46.950 --> 01:04:56.390
And helping people to understand that
there's a God who has created order in

01:04:56.390 --> 01:05:01.070
this universe, and that there are certain,
as you've mentioned, laws in this

01:05:01.070 --> 01:05:01.570
universe.

01:05:02.090 --> 01:05:06.410
That even includes moral laws,
moral laws of how we are to treat one

01:05:06.410 --> 01:05:06.830
another.

01:05:08.910 --> 01:05:12.770
Then, the work that we're working toward
is helping people to understand these

01:05:12.770 --> 01:05:17.010
moral laws and live according to these
moral laws, because not only will they

01:05:17.010 --> 01:05:21.070
benefit living healthier and happier
lives, but our society will as well.

01:05:21.670 --> 01:05:26.690
And so, each of the work that we do
through Concerned Women for America is

01:05:26.690 --> 01:05:27.830
toward that end.

01:05:28.410 --> 01:05:30.230
Now, you have your own cause.

01:05:30.330 --> 01:05:31.890
You're going to devote your life to that.

01:05:31.890 --> 01:05:36.930
And I would hope that you could respect
and appreciate the work that we're doing

01:05:36.930 --> 01:05:41.830
to help make society a better place by
helping people to understand the moral

01:05:41.830 --> 01:05:47.690
laws not only exist, but they're the best
for each one of us and as a society.

01:05:48.210 --> 01:05:53.830
And you can go to sleep at night happy,
hopefully, knowing that we're being

01:05:53.830 --> 01:05:59.270
successful in our work, because it will
make a better society, one that Darwin's

01:05:59.270 --> 01:06:00.930
beliefs would not have made.

01:06:01.650 --> 01:06:03.890
Yes, well, I've gone into that,
haven't I?

01:06:03.970 --> 01:06:08.910
I agree with you that Darwinian beliefs
would not make for a good society.

01:06:09.010 --> 01:06:09.970
I've said they'll make for a bad society.

01:06:09.970 --> 01:06:21.210
And what's lacking, as you've mentioned,
what's lacking in Darwin needs to be made

01:06:21.210 --> 01:06:22.330
up with somewhere else.

01:06:22.330 --> 01:06:28.550
The fact that Darwinian would lead to such
a harsh and brutal life means that there's

01:06:28.550 --> 01:06:32.830
a great need for other people to be making
this world a better place.

01:06:33.030 --> 01:06:35.590
And that's what we're working on.

01:06:35.890 --> 01:06:39.990
And even though I may not agree like you
do, hopefully you can appreciate the work

01:06:39.990 --> 01:06:42.370
that we're doing to make society a better
place.