WEBVTT 00:05.880 --> 00:07.140 All who love Jesus. 00:07.960 --> 00:08.740 You say, what? 00:09.300 --> 00:11.380 You can include people with all sorts of errors? 00:12.160 --> 00:14.200 Well, when I include Adventists, I do that. 00:18.480 --> 00:25.340 You know, all our teaching of historicism on prophetic themes and setting dates, 00:25.980 --> 00:28.620 our scholars have known for decades that's all wrong. 00:31.420 --> 00:32.860 William Miller was a great Christian. 00:33.860 --> 00:37.540 God used him to revive the Second Advent pre-millennial hope. 00:37.960 --> 00:44.320 God used him, great man, but not a great scholar and not even a great 00:44.320 --> 00:45.000 mathematician. 00:46.700 --> 00:53.520 And almost all our dates like 538, 508, 1798, 1844, they all come from Billy 00:53.520 --> 00:56.540 Miller and he's wrong in all of them. 00:58.560 --> 00:59.780 He's wrong in all of them. 01:02.400 --> 01:07.940 There is no evidence of papal supremacy from 538 to 1798, that's just not true. 01:08.540 --> 01:09.940 Ask any historian. 01:12.120 --> 01:16.780 There was papal supremacy for two to three centuries, around the 11th century or so. 01:17.740 --> 01:22.920 It's just not true, all we said about 538 to 1798, that's a hangover from Miller and 01:22.920 --> 01:23.600 Miller was wrong. 01:27.060 --> 01:32.160 All the stuff we said on the trumpets, French Revolution and Revelation 11, 01:32.520 --> 01:35.180 United States and Revelation 13, none of it's correct. 01:35.180 --> 01:35.240 I remember one night 01:39.480 --> 01:50.320 when I walked with Cottrell around Tacoma Park in the 1950s and told him my problems 01:50.320 --> 01:52.520 with Adventist interpretation of prophecy. 01:54.340 --> 01:56.080 He had all the same problems. 01:57.880 --> 02:00.000 So he went to Elder Nicholl, he said, what do we do? 02:02.100 --> 02:06.260 This one on 814, he said, none of our scholars believe it. 02:07.800 --> 02:12.980 Nicholl said, write to all the scholars who know Hebrew and Greek and ask them. 02:14.020 --> 02:20.780 All 27 came back and said, you can't prove an investigative judgment or in 1844 out 02:20.780 --> 02:21.920 of Daniel 814. 02:22.680 --> 02:28.500 We should look at her statements and if she doesn't agree with scripture and if 02:28.500 --> 02:33.660 she's contrary to the gospel, you know a few twisted rails can cause a terrible 02:33.660 --> 02:34.260 train wreck. 02:35.140 --> 02:38.680 All right, so what have we learned? 02:39.640 --> 02:45.400 Here's a quote, and you tell me if this is gospel or not. 02:46.100 --> 02:53.680 Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot 02:53.680 --> 02:54.960 or stain on them. 02:55.860 --> 03:02.940 It is left with us to remedy the defects of our characters, to cleanse the soul 03:02.940 --> 03:04.920 temple of every defilement. 03:05.120 --> 03:07.600 Testimonies to the Church, Volume 5, 214. 03:09.120 --> 03:10.800 Does that sound like scripture? 03:12.120 --> 03:15.080 Let's read Ephesians 1, 13, okay? 03:15.800 --> 03:20.740 In him you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your 03:20.740 --> 03:26.160 salvation, having also believed, you were sealed with him, with the Holy 03:26.160 --> 03:27.440 Spirit of promise. 03:28.500 --> 03:34.020 So Ellen White says, you've got to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement before 03:34.020 --> 03:39.380 you're sealed with the Holy Spirit, or the Sabbath, she would probably say. 03:40.220 --> 03:46.280 Paul says that when we listen to the gospel and we believe it, we are sealed. 03:46.580 --> 03:50.320 And that's eris passif, means in a point of time, done by somebody else. 03:51.300 --> 03:52.560 Praise God for the gospel. 03:53.860 --> 03:54.640 How about this one? 03:56.280 --> 04:02.780 Ellen White says, we cannot receive the Holy Spirit until we break every yoke that 04:02.780 --> 04:05.400 binds us to our objectionable traits of character. 04:05.400 --> 04:10.820 Adventists want to appear as an open, friendly, evangelical church. 04:11.000 --> 04:14.620 And they're making great inroads in that respect. 04:15.020 --> 04:16.000 They really are. 04:17.560 --> 04:24.120 And yet in their evangelistic series, they will tell believing Christians that 04:24.120 --> 04:27.840 they're going to get the mark of the beast if they don't keep Sabbath and join the 04:27.840 --> 04:28.820 true remnant church. 04:29.900 --> 04:33.560 Now I think it's deceptive to teach both. 04:34.360 --> 04:36.240 They can't have it both ways. 04:36.820 --> 04:42.220 But they are doing it both ways because the evangelical church is asleep and does 04:42.220 --> 04:43.140 not understand it. 04:43.480 --> 04:48.160 And Paul, I appreciate what he is doing to open it up so people understand what's 04:48.160 --> 04:48.660 going on. 04:49.360 --> 04:50.280 Now let's review. 04:50.820 --> 04:54.540 The writings of Ellen White are a continuing and authoritative source of 04:54.540 --> 04:54.860 truth. 04:54.940 --> 04:59.940 And she has many, many statements contrary to Scripture that undermine the gospel. 05:00.360 --> 05:01.800 She has some good statements too. 05:02.300 --> 05:02.900 Many of them. 05:04.060 --> 05:08.360 The Sabbath observance is required for salvation and Sunday is the mark of the 05:08.360 --> 05:08.660 beast. 05:08.800 --> 05:11.500 Now we come to pillar number three. 05:12.240 --> 05:17.300 This is the central pillar of the Adventist church. 05:17.720 --> 05:23.620 And it is the investigative judgment and the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. 05:25.240 --> 05:29.820 Now, take a deep breath and listen. 05:30.780 --> 05:34.560 I'm going to read to you a summary of this teaching. 05:34.740 --> 05:38.080 And by the way, this was the teaching that caused me to leave the church. 05:38.540 --> 05:40.600 I have read thousands of pages on it. 05:41.200 --> 05:44.600 And I've talked with many Adventist leaders including Chairman of the 05:44.600 --> 05:47.100 Department of Religion and so on on this topic. 05:47.760 --> 05:52.220 And everybody I talked to in private admitted it was an error. 05:52.600 --> 05:53.940 But in public they wouldn't say that. 05:54.360 --> 05:56.900 Every sin must be confessed. 05:57.640 --> 06:02.900 And as was alluded here tonight, sins which have been forgotten and 06:02.900 --> 06:06.800 unconfessed will stand against them in the day of judgment. 06:07.700 --> 06:09.520 You wonder why Adventists have fear. 06:09.940 --> 06:10.620 Here it is. 06:11.380 --> 06:15.120 Their characters must demonstrate perfect obedience to the Ten Commandment Law, 06:15.240 --> 06:17.340 especially the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment. 06:18.240 --> 06:21.880 Some names in the list of professed believers will be accepted. 06:22.700 --> 06:24.060 Others will be rejected. 06:24.780 --> 06:30.540 When every person confessing faith in God has come up in review, Jesus, note, 06:31.000 --> 06:37.920 then pleads His blood before the Father on behalf of those who are found worthy, 06:38.680 --> 06:42.160 and blots out the record of their sins from the book of heaven. 06:43.060 --> 06:48.560 Then, not knowing if or when the work of judgment has been completed, the 06:48.560 --> 06:53.520 righteous, still in their human state before the second coming of Christ, 06:53.820 --> 06:58.380 will have to live in the sight of God without an intercessor. 06:59.700 --> 07:01.160 How's that for fear? 07:02.600 --> 07:04.600 This then completes the atonement. 07:04.740 --> 07:05.420 Listen carefully. 07:05.860 --> 07:11.660 Jesus then takes the sins of God's people and transfers them to Satan, who is 07:11.660 --> 07:15.640 represented by the Day of Atonement scapegoat who made atonement, okay? 07:16.760 --> 07:22.860 In Leviticus 16, Satan then bears the ultimate responsibility for all the sins 07:22.860 --> 07:25.660 he has committed the righteous to commit. 07:26.540 --> 07:31.340 He will suffer for these in the lake of fire and then be blotted from existence. 07:32.420 --> 07:34.780 So he is the final sin bearer. 07:35.760 --> 07:38.840 What Christ did, and Adventists have a whole theory of transfer. 07:39.020 --> 07:42.080 That's the whole thesis behind their investigative judgment. 07:43.240 --> 07:47.220 It's the sins are transferred to Christ when we confess it, then he transfers them 07:47.220 --> 07:50.480 to the heavenly sanctuary, and then they're transferred to Satan, okay? 07:50.600 --> 07:52.120 That's a transfer thing. 07:53.180 --> 07:56.880 Okay, he will suffer for these things in the lake of fire and be blotted from 07:56.880 --> 07:57.360 existence. 08:00.160 --> 08:06.260 This investigative judgment is conducted before the intelligences of the universe. 08:07.060 --> 08:12.580 This then, this, okay now listen carefully, this whole thing that I've been 08:12.580 --> 08:19.180 telling you about, what this then vindicates the character of God before all 08:19.180 --> 08:25.760 unfallen beings, and then everyone will know the immutability of the law of God 08:25.760 --> 08:27.840 and the righteous character of God. 08:28.700 --> 08:34.780 So they teach that this investigative judgment that I've gone through with you 08:34.780 --> 08:38.800 is the very thing that vindicates the character of God. 08:39.740 --> 08:43.920 Now I'm going to give you, I think in the book I have some 14 evaluations, 08:44.100 --> 08:45.840 I'm going to give you just a few here, okay? 08:47.420 --> 08:52.200 There are some Adventists who say, well Dale, this is not our central pillar, 08:52.760 --> 08:53.080 okay? 08:53.400 --> 08:54.380 You'll get that. 08:55.480 --> 08:57.480 However, it is. 08:59.300 --> 09:04.980 Ellen White said, the Daniel 8.14 is the foundation and central pillar of the 09:04.980 --> 09:05.880 Adventist faith. 09:06.540 --> 09:12.080 Here's a book written by Dr. Roy Adams, SDA theologian on the sanctuary. 09:12.220 --> 09:13.540 Can you read what that says right there? 09:14.980 --> 09:18.480 Understanding the heart of Adventist theology. 09:19.300 --> 09:20.240 Now is that central? 09:21.220 --> 09:28.780 Okay, here is a 2008 Sabbath school quarterly, they call it, for adults. 09:29.660 --> 09:31.640 It's called the Pillars of our Faith. 09:32.460 --> 09:33.540 What is it talking about? 09:33.900 --> 09:38.500 Keep the Sabbath day holy, light and shadows, the earthly sanctuary, 09:38.800 --> 09:41.740 the heavenly sanctuary, the hours of God's judgment, the remnant. 09:42.160 --> 09:44.120 These are central pillars. 09:45.020 --> 09:48.780 They may try to tell you they're not, but they really are, okay? 09:49.540 --> 09:53.540 Now this teaching is based on 22 linking assumptions. 09:54.420 --> 09:59.340 14 of the 22 are absolutely contrary to evidence, 8 can't be proved. 09:59.960 --> 10:03.460 This doctrine... well that's true. 10:05.540 --> 10:14.640 This doctrine completely ignores the context of Daniel 8.14, which is the 10:14.640 --> 10:17.020 central pillar of Adventist faith. 10:17.980 --> 10:21.800 Now the late Dr. Raymond Cottrell, who used to live right here, close, 10:21.960 --> 10:22.140 okay? 10:22.280 --> 10:25.600 He lived what, 15 miles from here, something like that? 10:26.020 --> 10:28.940 He was Adventist's top Hebrew scholar. 10:30.000 --> 10:35.660 And in his long study of this, he said Adventists cannot get the theology 10:35.660 --> 10:39.620 out of Daniel 8.14 unless they completely take it out of context. 10:40.340 --> 10:47.560 He says if you take it in context, it makes Christ the wicked little horn of 10:47.560 --> 10:48.180 the prophecy. 10:49.420 --> 10:54.640 I wonder who would want to make Christ the wicked horn? 10:56.580 --> 11:02.280 This doctrine teaches or denies the finished atonement at the cross. 11:03.420 --> 11:09.860 In fact the original teaching of this doctrine, which was by Higher Medicine and 11:09.860 --> 11:14.490 then Crozer, said no atonement was made at the cross. 11:15.530 --> 11:20.050 And Ellen White endorsed that, who is a source of truth. 11:20.330 --> 11:22.050 Do you believe atonement was made at the cross? 11:22.550 --> 11:27.470 Then this kills us dead, because they say no atonement was made at the cross, 11:28.030 --> 11:28.670 originally. 11:28.850 --> 11:31.330 Now they say it was now partially, but not totally. 11:33.090 --> 11:37.350 This doctrine teaches that Christ did not go into the most holy place and sit at the 11:37.350 --> 11:40.230 Father's right hand until October 22, 1844. 11:41.170 --> 11:45.390 Thus it contradicts many, many passages of Scripture. 11:45.570 --> 11:48.450 For example, Hebrews 6, 19 and 20. 11:48.970 --> 11:54.290 This hope we have as an anchor for the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast, 11:54.730 --> 11:59.630 one which enters within the veil, that's the most holy place, where Jesus 11:59.630 --> 12:01.470 has entered. 12:02.030 --> 12:05.630 That's in the Aorist tense, it means it went in at a point of time and that point 12:05.630 --> 12:08.750 of time was the Ascension, not October 22. 12:09.630 --> 12:13.290 He went in there as a forerunner for us, having become a priest forever. 12:14.930 --> 12:15.910 Which is right? 12:16.170 --> 12:19.030 The writer of Hebrews or Adventist doctrine? 12:19.550 --> 12:21.690 A central pillar of Adventist doctrine. 12:21.730 --> 12:22.410 You've got to decide. 12:23.190 --> 12:26.870 This doctrine teaches that sins are not really forgiven at the time of repentance 12:26.870 --> 12:31.010 and faith, but the repentant believer is placed on what? 12:32.030 --> 12:32.830 Probation. 12:33.650 --> 12:37.630 To see if they will be found worthy of Christ's final atonement. 12:38.330 --> 12:44.510 Ellen White uses the word probation over a thousand times in her writings. 12:44.950 --> 12:47.650 How many times does Scripture use probation? 12:48.290 --> 12:49.090 Zero. 12:49.850 --> 12:53.730 Do you know who else uses the word probation in their writings? 12:54.590 --> 12:55.890 Joseph Smith. 12:57.890 --> 12:58.090 Okay. 13:00.330 --> 13:07.450 1 John 2.12 states, I am writing to you little children, because your sins have 13:07.450 --> 13:08.690 been forgiven. 13:09.290 --> 13:11.050 What's the text, the tense there? 13:11.610 --> 13:12.490 Perfect passive. 13:13.510 --> 13:18.570 We live in the state, the ongoing state of having our sins forgiven. 13:19.310 --> 13:22.210 Not only perfection, but our sins forgiven. 13:22.330 --> 13:23.230 That's the gospel. 13:23.370 --> 13:24.690 That's the good news of the gospel. 13:25.930 --> 13:26.270 Okay. 13:28.510 --> 13:32.390 This doctrine teaches that the final punishment for the sins of the righteous 13:32.390 --> 13:33.630 will be placed on Satan. 13:34.390 --> 13:37.490 Therefore Christ really did not suffer the full penalty of our sins. 13:37.990 --> 13:42.870 His death served mostly to transfer our sins to heaven and then transfer them 13:42.870 --> 13:47.170 again to Satan, who becomes the final sin bearer. 13:47.230 --> 13:55.850 However, 1 Peter 2.24 states, he himself bore our sins in his own body on the 13:55.850 --> 13:56.230 cross. 13:56.990 --> 13:57.750 Who is right? 13:58.370 --> 14:00.430 Ellen White or Peter? 14:01.270 --> 14:02.370 You got to make a decision. 14:04.170 --> 14:08.510 This doctrine teaches that God's people will have to live in the sight of a holy 14:08.510 --> 14:10.550 God without an intercessor. 14:11.990 --> 14:13.570 What does Hebrews say? 14:14.350 --> 14:21.350 Therefore since he is also, he is able also to save forever those who draw near 14:21.350 --> 14:28.110 to God through him since he always lives to make intercession for them. 14:28.850 --> 14:29.830 Who is right? 14:30.470 --> 14:34.470 The Adventist doctrine or the investigative judgment in Ellen White or 14:34.470 --> 14:35.290 the writer of Hebrews? 14:35.630 --> 14:36.730 You got to decide. 14:37.770 --> 14:41.650 And if you are a Seventh-day Adventist here tonight, I challenge you to study 14:41.650 --> 14:44.950 these things out and go with what scripture says. 22:00.880 --> 22:05.180 The Seventh-day Adventist church was founded on prophecies concerning the 22:05.180 --> 22:06.780 Second Coming of Jesus Christ. 22:07.300 --> 22:11.020 It's no coincidence that the Bible contains many warnings about false 22:11.020 --> 22:11.440 prophets. 22:11.820 --> 22:17.240 The Bible test of a false prophet in Deuteronomy chapters 13 and 18 is simply 22:17.240 --> 22:19.620 whether or not the prophecy comes true. 22:20.200 --> 22:24.820 It's a matter of historical record that the following prophecies of Ellen G. 22:24.960 --> 22:27.480 White did not come true as she foretold. 22:48.640 --> 22:53.080 The exact opposite of Ellen White's prediction has happened. 22:54.120 --> 22:59.740 Old Jerusalem has been greatly built up in the years since 1948 when Israel became a 22:59.740 --> 23:00.000 nation. 23:00.800 --> 23:02.620 She was absolutely wrong. 23:03.320 --> 23:07.140 Again, Mrs. White foretold in early writings that she would be among the 23:07.140 --> 23:09.060 living saints when Jesus returned. 23:10.060 --> 23:15.320 Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared, 23:15.320 --> 23:20.460 about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the sign of the Son 23:20.460 --> 23:20.960 of Man. 23:21.640 --> 23:26.340 The graves opened, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together 23:26.340 --> 23:28.700 with them to meet the Lord in the air. 23:29.460 --> 23:33.120 Mrs. White was not among the living saints seen in her vision. 23:33.680 --> 23:36.000 This event did not occur in her lifetime. 23:36.540 --> 23:40.520 We are still looking for the glorious return of our Lord Jesus Christ. 23:41.300 --> 23:45.180 Rather than being caught up with the living saints at Jesus' return, 23:45.760 --> 23:51.320 Mrs. White died on July 16, 1915, and was buried beside her husband James. 23:51.880 --> 23:53.940 Another one of her prophecies failed. 23:55.400 --> 24:00.300 Like others of her time, Mrs. White taught the imminent end of the world to spur on 24:00.300 --> 24:00.840 her workers. 24:01.300 --> 24:05.800 In early writings in the 1850s, she urged the new converts on, 24:05.860 --> 24:08.620 telling them they only had a few months to wait. 24:09.300 --> 24:13.980 But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, 24:14.180 --> 24:16.100 they will have to learn in a few months. 24:17.080 --> 24:22.460 These were not isolated prophecies, but restated over and over again. 24:23.180 --> 24:28.720 In May 1856, at a church meeting in Battle Creek, Michigan, Mrs. White boldly 24:28.720 --> 24:29.920 stated... 24:30.360 --> 24:35.580 I saw that some of those present would be food for worms, some subjects for the 24:35.580 --> 24:40.760 seven last plagues, and some would be translated to heaven at the second coming 24:40.760 --> 24:42.920 of Christ without seeing death. 24:43.860 --> 24:48.220 In biblical times, she would have been stoned to death for being a false prophet. 24:49.040 --> 24:53.400 Mrs. White did not confine her prophesying to the events surrounding the coming of 24:53.400 --> 24:57.940 the Lord, but prophesied how foreign governments would act against the United 24:57.940 --> 24:58.520 States. 24:59.640 --> 25:04.960 In 1862, Ellen White predicted the downfall of the United States following a 25:04.960 --> 25:07.140 great war involving many nations. 25:07.980 --> 25:12.280 During the Civil War, she prophesied that England would declare war on the northern 25:12.280 --> 25:14.980 states and humble them into the dust. 25:16.340 --> 25:22.280 Said the angel, when England does declare war, all nations will have an interest of 25:22.280 --> 25:26.640 their own to serve, and there will be general war, general confusion. 25:27.140 --> 25:30.080 This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. 25:30.880 --> 25:33.920 History proves the utter error of this prophecy. 25:34.760 --> 25:37.440 England did not declare war on the northern states. 25:37.860 --> 25:39.680 Other nations did not join in. 25:40.080 --> 25:43.980 The United States of America was not humbled into the dust in defeat. 25:44.740 --> 25:49.940 Mrs. White, again clearly to the objective mind, prophesied falsely. 26:11.140 --> 26:13.200 She prophesied that England would declare war on the northern states and humble them 26:13.200 --> 26:15.980 into the dust, and there will be general war, general confusion. 26:17.280 --> 26:19.660 This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. 26:21.560 --> 26:23.720 Other nations did not join in. 26:24.100 --> 26:26.840 The United States of America was not humbled into the dust. 26:26.840 --> 26:26.840 Other nations did not join in. 26:29.500 --> 26:30.060 The United States of America 26:58.420 --> 26:59.820 was not humbled into the dust. 26:59.840 --> 27:00.020 This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. 27:00.780 --> 27:01.120 Church. 27:02.140 --> 27:07.160 A couple of bombshells have been dropped, and one of those bombshells is a 27:07.160 --> 27:13.100 theological bombshell that Dr. Ford, in part, you are responsible for, 27:13.160 --> 27:14.440 or have at least brought up. 27:14.960 --> 27:19.780 And quoting Time, it says this, that Ellen G. 27:20.400 --> 27:27.440 White's Sanctuary Explanation of 1844, in your opinion, is no longer able to 27:27.440 --> 27:29.440 stand up to the light of the Bible. 27:30.480 --> 27:32.680 And let's start with that. 27:33.180 --> 27:38.240 For all of us that are not Seventh-day Adventists, would you please explain a 27:38.240 --> 27:43.460 little bit about what the Sanctuary Explanation of 1844, what it is, 27:43.460 --> 27:46.120 for those of us that are not part of Seventh-day Adventism. 27:47.040 --> 27:47.720 Gladly, John. 27:47.760 --> 27:49.400 If I may just give a moment of background. 27:50.220 --> 27:51.900 You said you were not a Seventh-day Adventist. 27:51.900 --> 27:53.040 I accept that apology. 27:55.020 --> 27:59.820 I am one, and I love the Church, but I want to see it come in full harmony 27:59.820 --> 28:00.320 with Scripture. 28:01.140 --> 28:04.040 Adventists have long claimed to be the heirs of the Reformation. 28:04.840 --> 28:08.100 And the Reformation was based on the primacy and the adequacy and the 28:08.100 --> 28:09.300 sufficiency of Holy Writ. 28:10.180 --> 28:13.920 It was based on the priesthood of all believers, and it was based on 28:13.920 --> 28:15.160 justification by faith. 28:15.640 --> 28:19.420 And I want to see my Church come into full harmony in these areas. 28:19.520 --> 28:21.780 I believe the Church has made a great contribution in Christendom. 28:22.300 --> 28:24.500 It's stress on the blessed hope in an age of hopelessness. 28:24.680 --> 28:26.500 It's stress on the law in an age of lawlessness. 28:27.040 --> 28:32.000 But the Sanctuary, as usually presented by Seventh-day Adventists, seems to many to 28:32.000 --> 28:35.840 be a threat to the Reformation doctrine of salvation by grace alone. 28:36.120 --> 28:36.920 Okay, what is it? 28:37.520 --> 28:42.840 The Adventist Sanctuary doctrine affirms that in 1844, our Lord Jesus Christ 28:42.840 --> 28:46.700 entered the second apartment of the Heavenly Sanctuary, or as some would say, 28:46.740 --> 28:48.580 entered upon a second phase of His ministry. 28:49.280 --> 28:52.920 This being a work of investigative judgment, a work that has now been in 28:52.920 --> 28:57.620 procedure for over 140 years, which is to determine who shall be saved and who shall 28:57.620 --> 28:58.080 be lost. 28:58.420 --> 29:04.180 A review of the saints, the way it is often presented, has taken assurance from 29:04.180 --> 29:06.840 the vast membership of the Church. 29:07.960 --> 29:12.180 For those who are not Seventh-day Adventists, let's pause here to clarify 29:12.180 --> 29:13.720 what Dr. Ford just said. 29:14.920 --> 29:20.600 Seventh-day Adventists believe Daniel 8.14 supports their view that Jesus moved from 29:20.600 --> 29:24.940 one compartment of the Heavenly Sanctuary to another in 1844. 29:25.620 --> 29:30.980 At that point, Jesus began an investigative judgment of all Christians. 29:31.980 --> 29:33.760 Ellen White wrote, quote, 29:51.840 --> 29:56.340 But a number of Seventh-day Adventists, like Dr. Ford, are questioning this. 29:56.920 --> 30:01.040 They believe the Bible teaches that Atonement was completed at the cross, 30:01.420 --> 30:05.880 through the shed blood of Christ, and that believers' sins are forgiven once 30:05.880 --> 30:07.960 for all at the moment of salvation. 30:08.740 --> 30:14.780 However, Ellen White has written, quote, The blood of Christ, while it was 30:14.780 --> 30:20.420 to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel 30:20.420 --> 30:21.000 the sin. 30:21.540 --> 30:26.840 It would stand on record in the Sanctuary until the final Atonement. 30:27.840 --> 30:33.160 She also wrote, again quoting, In the New Covenant, the sins of the 30:33.160 --> 30:39.980 repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the Heavenly 30:39.980 --> 30:40.700 Sanctuary. 30:41.700 --> 30:46.300 The actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal of sins 30:46.300 --> 30:48.100 which are there recorded. 30:48.840 --> 30:53.720 But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books 30:53.720 --> 30:58.140 of record to determine who, through repentance and faith in Christ, 30:58.440 --> 31:01.360 are entitled to the benefits of His Atonement. 31:02.180 --> 31:07.120 But some Seventh-day Adventists, like Dr. Ford, point out that God has 31:07.120 --> 31:11.380 removed forgiven sin as far as the East is from the West. 31:12.220 --> 31:17.980 Why, then, they ask, must there be any further investigative judgment by Christ 31:17.980 --> 31:22.000 based on past sins to determine a believer's salvation? 31:22.760 --> 31:25.740 The key question that emerges is this. 31:26.240 --> 31:32.220 Is salvation by faith alone, that is, faith in Christ, whose life and death 31:32.220 --> 31:38.680 satisfies God's demands, or is it by a mixture of faith plus works, that is, 31:38.820 --> 31:44.700 faith in Christ, who only gives me strength for me to go out and live perfect 31:44.700 --> 31:47.800 so He can later finally approve me? 31:48.720 --> 31:55.480 The way it is often presented has taken assurance from the vast membership of the 31:55.480 --> 32:00.960 Church, very few Adventists comparatively rejoice in the known possession of eternal 32:00.960 --> 32:06.420 life now in harmony with John 5, 24, that he who believes has eternal life. 32:07.280 --> 32:11.840 Usually Adventists think that if they can get through that tremendous hurdle of 32:11.840 --> 32:14.460 their name passing through the investigative judgment, that if their 32:14.460 --> 32:17.500 characters are found in harmony with the law of God, they can make it. 32:17.680 --> 32:21.500 If a guy can read three lines from a President of the General Conference on the 32:21.500 --> 32:25.140 point, this is what he wrote in Drama of the Ages, this was Branson, Elder Branson, 32:25.140 --> 32:29.580 a Christian who through faith in Jesus Christ has faithfully kept the law's 32:29.580 --> 32:31.260 requirements will be acquitted. 32:31.820 --> 32:34.400 There's no condemnation for the law finds no fault in him. 32:34.540 --> 32:36.380 If that's true, we're all done for. 32:37.800 --> 32:39.460 Okay, let's go back. 32:39.620 --> 32:41.340 I think you lost a few of us here. 32:41.500 --> 32:45.480 The first thing I was thinking about is why do we even need a sanctuary doctrine? 32:46.480 --> 32:51.460 The Seventh-day Adventists, the sanctuary doctrine, grew out of the Miller Revival, 32:51.680 --> 32:56.620 the Advent Revival in 1844, a Baptist pastor who was responsible for the 32:56.620 --> 33:01.440 resurgence of pre-millennialism, the doctrine that Jesus Christ would come 33:01.440 --> 33:06.020 before the Millennium, which was quite contrary to the post-millennialism of the 33:06.020 --> 33:06.340 day. 33:06.440 --> 33:09.760 In an age of progress, it was taken for granted the world would get better and 33:09.760 --> 33:11.680 better for a thousand years, then Jesus would come. 33:11.820 --> 33:16.440 Miller was a skeptic, then found the Lord, and under his own study he came up with 33:16.440 --> 33:18.160 the idea that the Lord was coming back in 1844. 33:18.160 --> 33:21.920 An honest Christian who preached Christ, who preached the gospel, but sadly, 33:22.320 --> 33:27.340 ultimately, not for years, ultimately settled on a date of October 22, 33:27.800 --> 33:29.800 1844 for Christ to come. 33:30.000 --> 33:31.860 Most people in the movement were opposed to date setting. 33:31.880 --> 33:33.100 Okay, what verse did he get that from? 33:33.360 --> 33:38.040 He felt it was found in Daniel 8.14 when linked with Daniel 9.24. 33:38.420 --> 33:39.200 Okay, read it for us. 33:39.220 --> 33:39.700 You've got there? 33:39.760 --> 33:44.840 Daniel 8.14 in the KJV says, under 2,300 days, then shall the sanctuary be 33:44.840 --> 33:45.460 cleansed. 33:45.680 --> 33:50.280 And Daniel 9.24 speaks about 70 weeks are determined upon thy people. 33:50.680 --> 33:53.440 And Adventists have said the word determined means cut off from. 33:53.760 --> 33:59.620 So 490 years would be cut off from 2,300, and both should begin with the date of 33:59.620 --> 34:04.300 Daniel 9.25, a decree to restore Jerusalem in 457 DC. 34:05.020 --> 34:11.300 How did William Miller pick the date of 1844 AD as the time Jesus would return to 34:11.300 --> 34:11.560 earth? 34:11.980 --> 34:15.000 He made at least five wrong assumptions to do so. 34:15.240 --> 34:22.060 First, he assumed two unrelated passages of scripture, Daniel 8.14 and Daniel 9.24, 34:22.540 --> 34:23.960 were actually related. 34:24.620 --> 34:31.800 Second, in Daniel 8.14, he assumed that the 2,300 days mentioned could mean 2,300 34:31.800 --> 34:32.820 years. 34:33.300 --> 34:34.180 He was wrong. 34:34.680 --> 34:41.800 The Hebrew literally reads 2,300 evenings and mornings, which total 1,150 whole 34:41.800 --> 34:42.340 days. 34:42.920 --> 34:48.820 Third, he further assumed from Daniel 8.14 that in the words, then shall the 34:48.820 --> 34:54.460 sanctuary be cleansed, that the sanctuary stood for the whole earth, and cleansed 34:54.460 --> 34:57.960 stood for Jesus leaving heaven and coming to earth. 34:58.460 --> 34:59.580 Again, he was wrong. 35:00.120 --> 35:03.640 The Hebrew word for cleansed literally means vindicated. 35:04.420 --> 35:10.100 Fourth, in the other verse, Daniel 9.24, he assumed that when the 77's, 35:10.220 --> 35:16.600 or 490 years, were decreed, the word decreed could be translated cut off from. 35:17.160 --> 35:18.040 He was wrong. 35:18.520 --> 35:21.800 The Hebrew literally means decreed or determined. 35:22.720 --> 35:29.100 He further postulated the 490 years mentioned here were cut off from the 2,300 35:29.100 --> 35:33.000 years postulated in the other passage of Daniel 8.14. 35:33.340 --> 35:39.780 Fifth, from these two non-related texts, he joined his wrongly translated words in 35:39.780 --> 35:45.260 those texts to assume he knew when the 2,300 years began and when they would end. 35:46.420 --> 35:52.160 This postulated date, mixed with his assumptions that the cleansing of the 35:52.160 --> 35:57.600 sanctuary stood for Jesus coming to earth, led Miller to wrongly conclude that Jesus 35:57.600 --> 36:02.280 would come back to the earth on October 22, 1844 A.D. 36:03.480 --> 36:05.900 Later, in a vision, Ellen G. 36:06.020 --> 36:11.400 White claimed it was revealed to her that Jesus did not come to earth, or the 36:11.400 --> 36:13.060 earthly sanctuary as she called it. 36:13.460 --> 36:21.640 Rather, on October 22, 1844, Jesus changed his location in heaven and entered the 36:21.640 --> 36:24.200 heavenly sanctuary, or the Holy of Holies. 36:24.840 --> 36:26.600 The event did not take place, of course. 36:27.440 --> 36:28.880 And there was great disillusionment. 36:30.220 --> 36:34.340 Not the extreme going up on hilltops and ascension roads, all that has been 36:34.340 --> 36:35.640 debunked long ago by historians. 36:35.640 --> 36:38.140 But nevertheless, tremendous disillusionment. 36:38.760 --> 36:41.500 And Adventists who felt the Lord had led them sought for an explanation. 36:42.160 --> 36:45.740 Those who became Seventh-day Adventists came up with the explanation after 13 36:45.740 --> 36:46.160 years. 36:46.680 --> 36:52.540 After 13 years, in 1857, came up with the investigative judgment that at that time 36:52.540 --> 36:55.740 Christ had come, not to earth, but to the most holy place of heaven, 36:55.900 --> 37:00.780 to do an anti-typical work of judgment as prefigured by the Day of Atonement. 37:01.100 --> 37:05.400 In other words, would you say that was a face-saving device? 37:05.920 --> 37:09.640 Most theologians from outside looking at it have drawn that conclusion, 37:09.800 --> 37:12.560 particularly in as much as Adventists had several other explanations. 37:12.980 --> 37:15.720 Shut door, going into the marriage, receiving the kingdom. 37:15.920 --> 37:19.340 There are a number of other theological devices that were tried for a while, 37:19.460 --> 37:22.200 found wanting and given away before this one was adopted. 37:22.400 --> 37:26.360 James White, husband of Ellen White, opposed this one in print, in the church 37:26.360 --> 37:28.280 paper, when it originally came out. 37:28.320 --> 37:30.460 But in 1857, it took control. 37:30.460 --> 37:33.580 Okay, and so, Jesus was supposed to come back to the earthly sanctuary, 37:33.680 --> 37:34.180 or the earth. 37:34.320 --> 37:35.100 He didn't come. 37:35.460 --> 37:36.880 And so, was it Ellen G. 37:36.980 --> 37:37.900 White that said? 37:38.120 --> 37:41.240 No, Ellen White did not devise a single doctrine of the Adventist church, 37:41.320 --> 37:44.220 but she did write on it, after it had been accepted by the church. 37:44.220 --> 37:46.900 Okay, but she accepted and... 37:46.900 --> 37:46.900 Yes. 37:47.720 --> 37:48.620 What would you say? 37:48.800 --> 37:49.220 Promulgated. 37:49.380 --> 37:49.580 Alright. 37:50.240 --> 37:51.280 She endorsed it. 37:51.520 --> 37:51.520 Yes. 37:51.800 --> 37:56.720 That Jesus had not come to this sanctuary, but had just switched compartments in the 37:56.720 --> 37:56.980 heavenly. 37:57.260 --> 38:01.460 To begin a work of investigative judgment to see who would be saved when Jesus came. 38:01.920 --> 38:06.800 And this, to most of the scholars of the church, flies in the face of the 38:06.800 --> 38:11.100 everlasting gospel, which says that we can have assurance of eternal life now, 38:11.280 --> 38:14.280 that we have the verdict of the last judgment, the moment we believe, 38:14.580 --> 38:18.180 because Christ's merits, and Christ's merits alone, are the only issue in the 38:18.180 --> 38:18.480 judgment. 38:18.720 --> 38:20.220 Have we laid hold of them by faith? 38:20.220 --> 38:28.220 Alright, what in brief are the reasons that you have found does not support that 38:28.220 --> 38:29.140 original interpretation? 38:29.480 --> 38:33.420 John, I am not an original thinker in this area. 38:33.600 --> 38:38.260 The things I am saying have been said by various men in the church for nearly a 38:38.260 --> 38:38.720 century. 38:39.000 --> 38:41.840 Okay, give us some of the things that they've been saying that would be solid 38:41.840 --> 38:42.220 evidence. 38:42.380 --> 38:42.720 Right. 38:42.860 --> 38:44.340 The major thing is this. 38:44.920 --> 38:47.900 There's only one place in the New Testament that speaks of the meaning of 38:47.900 --> 38:49.660 the two apartments of the Jewish sanctuary. 38:49.800 --> 38:50.760 That's Hebrews 9. 38:51.180 --> 38:54.240 There's only one place in the New Testament that discusses the cleansing of 38:54.240 --> 38:54.800 the heavenly sanctuary. 38:55.100 --> 38:56.060 That's Hebrews 9. 38:56.380 --> 39:01.040 There's only one part in the New Testament that explains in detail the meaning of the 39:01.040 --> 39:04.040 anti-typical day of atonement when the high priest went to the most holy place. 39:04.240 --> 39:05.160 That's Hebrews 9. 39:05.500 --> 39:08.400 This chapter embarrasses Seventh-day Adventists to no end. 39:08.600 --> 39:09.540 Of course, I'm generalizing. 39:09.660 --> 39:12.460 The scholars have known what I said for decades. 39:12.760 --> 39:15.720 This doctrine has not been taught at our university for decades. 39:15.720 --> 39:21.100 What have the scholars known all of these years concerning Hebrews 9 that seems to 39:22.260 --> 39:25.860 straighten us out in terms of what Scripture is saying about the two 39:25.860 --> 39:27.520 sanctuaries and the investigative judgment? 39:28.460 --> 39:32.820 John, to take the cross from the Christian is like blotting the sun out of the sky. 39:33.060 --> 39:37.400 And when the writer of Hebrews talks about the ancient sanctuary, he makes it all 39:37.400 --> 39:38.820 point to the cross of Christ. 39:39.000 --> 39:43.320 And when we come to Hebrews 9, he opens the chapter by discussing the two 39:43.320 --> 39:44.500 apartments of the sanctuary. 39:44.500 --> 39:48.360 And if we look at verse 6, he says that when everything had been arranged like 39:48.360 --> 39:51.040 this, the priest entered regularly into the outer room. 39:51.120 --> 39:53.180 There's the first apartment to carry on the ministry. 39:53.600 --> 39:56.860 But, he's going to talk about the second apartment all the way through. 39:56.960 --> 39:57.700 So now he has a but. 39:58.040 --> 40:02.800 But only the high priest entered the inner room and that only once a year and never 40:02.800 --> 40:03.520 without blood. 40:03.760 --> 40:08.200 And then verse 8 says, the Holy Spirit was showing by this the way into the most holy 40:08.200 --> 40:08.580 place. 40:08.920 --> 40:13.420 That's the equivalent of the word inner room or second mentioned in verse 7. 40:13.420 --> 40:18.500 Now it's called the most holy place had not yet been disclosed as long as the 40:18.500 --> 40:20.320 first room was still standing. 40:20.420 --> 40:22.600 This is an illustration for the present time. 40:22.760 --> 40:26.960 In other words, Hebrews is saying the first apartment represented the Jewish 40:26.960 --> 40:27.460 age. 40:27.640 --> 40:30.880 Verse 9 and 10 goes on to talk about the age of food and drink offerings, 40:31.200 --> 40:34.440 various carnal regulations that couldn't clear the conscience. 40:34.440 --> 40:38.780 And the writer of Hebrews says the first apartment represented the first era, 40:39.160 --> 40:40.120 the Jewish era. 40:40.460 --> 40:43.700 When there was continual ministration that didn't achieve anything because the cross 40:43.700 --> 40:44.240 hadn't come. 40:44.540 --> 40:48.680 But the second apartment, when the high priest went through the veil into the 40:48.680 --> 40:52.440 presence of God, where the Shekinah was, where the ark was, and the mercy seat, 40:52.580 --> 40:53.720 where the blood was sprinkled. 40:53.780 --> 40:58.040 That represented our Lord Jesus Christ in the cross, resurrection, ascension event. 40:58.040 --> 40:59.600 So there's the first answer. 40:59.900 --> 41:03.020 The two apartments according to the New Testament, the only place that discusses 41:03.020 --> 41:05.080 them, are said to prefigure the two eras. 41:05.440 --> 41:10.060 One, the Jewish, not the era to 1844, as Adventists have said, but the Jewish 41:10.060 --> 41:10.360 era. 41:10.560 --> 41:14.760 And the second apartment, not the era from 1844, but the whole Christian age. 41:15.040 --> 41:19.080 Now the second point, the meaning of the cleansing of the sanctuary, verse 23. 41:19.080 --> 41:23.600 It was necessary then for the copies of the heavenly things to be cleansed with 41:23.600 --> 41:24.420 these sacrifices. 41:24.420 --> 41:28.980 But the heavenly things themselves, cleansed in parenthesis, with better 41:28.980 --> 41:30.140 sacrifices than these. 41:30.380 --> 41:33.080 For Christ didn't enter a man-made sanctuary, there was only a copy of the 41:33.080 --> 41:33.400 true one. 41:33.520 --> 41:34.720 He entered heaven itself. 41:35.140 --> 41:36.060 And then verse 25. 41:36.460 --> 41:40.380 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest 41:40.380 --> 41:44.660 enters the most holy place every year with blood that's not his own. 41:44.660 --> 41:48.740 So here the writer says, the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary on the day of 41:48.740 --> 41:52.980 atonement, pointed forward to the time when Christ would cleanse the record, 41:53.260 --> 41:57.560 the shadow of sin, which had been cast into heaven through the ages of 41:57.560 --> 41:59.060 transgression of God's holy law. 41:59.440 --> 42:03.800 That Christ would cleanse away that blot by shedding his own blood, the better 42:03.800 --> 42:04.460 sacrifice. 42:04.680 --> 42:07.660 He entered heaven itself with blood, you see. 42:07.940 --> 42:10.520 And then it speaks about the sacrifice of himself in verse 26. 42:10.520 --> 42:11.400 So there's the second. 42:11.760 --> 42:14.820 The cleansing of the sanctuary is said to be fulfilled in the cross of Christ, 42:14.940 --> 42:17.000 and Christ ascending into the most holy place. 42:17.120 --> 42:21.240 Now the third one, the meaning of the day of atonement, if we go to verse 12. 42:21.920 --> 42:22.720 Of chapter 10? 42:22.860 --> 42:23.780 Of chapter 9 again. 42:23.920 --> 42:24.300 Chapter 9. 42:24.320 --> 42:25.680 All three in chapter 9. 42:25.780 --> 42:30.220 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves, these are what were used 42:30.220 --> 42:31.020 on the day of atonement. 42:31.280 --> 42:37.060 But he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood, having obtained 42:37.060 --> 42:38.660 eternal redemption. 42:38.660 --> 42:41.280 So that is the parallel to verse 8. 42:41.640 --> 42:44.540 Only the high priest entered the inner room, only once a year, never without 42:44.540 --> 42:44.920 blood. 42:45.220 --> 42:45.680 Verse 12. 42:45.760 --> 42:50.520 He entered with blood, but not goats and calves, the most holy place, once for all, 42:50.740 --> 42:52.060 having obtained eternal redemption. 42:52.280 --> 42:55.920 So the high priest's entrance on the day of atonement in the second department is 42:55.920 --> 42:57.240 here said to be fulfilled. 42:57.400 --> 43:00.620 When our Lord died on the cross, and by virtue of his own blood, 43:00.940 --> 43:02.860 entered into the presence of God on our behalf. 43:03.120 --> 43:06.560 Take him with him legally, the whole human race. 43:06.560 --> 43:12.620 So the moment I affirm by faith that he represented me, he substituted for me. 43:12.700 --> 43:15.360 That moment I am as close to God as he is. 43:15.900 --> 43:18.320 And the law can no more condemn me than it condemned him. 43:18.460 --> 43:20.160 Because the great atonement has been offered. 43:20.440 --> 43:21.540 The atonement is complete. 43:21.780 --> 43:22.820 Salvation is procured. 43:23.120 --> 43:24.240 Sin has been blotted out. 43:24.600 --> 43:25.840 I have eternal life. 43:26.040 --> 43:29.400 So long as I trust in the merits of Jesus, I cannot be lost. 43:29.680 --> 43:30.380 That's the gospel. 43:30.760 --> 43:31.900 So there are the three points. 43:31.900 --> 43:34.180 I think that, John, is a very important point. 43:35.120 --> 43:38.580 It's not just theological that Ford caused the dilemma in. 43:39.080 --> 43:42.500 The Adventist does not believe, nor does not teach, nor has not taught 43:42.500 --> 43:44.800 that the atonement was complete at the cross. 43:44.900 --> 43:47.680 That that experience comes at conversion with Christ at the cross. 43:48.120 --> 43:49.320 You see, they separated it. 43:49.720 --> 43:54.340 And to an Adventist, technically, philosophically, I think his atonement is 43:54.340 --> 43:57.220 never completed till after his judgment and the coming of Christ. 43:57.220 --> 44:00.940 The Adventist is tempted to hold his breath until he's gotten through the 44:00.940 --> 44:01.840 investigative judgment. 44:02.000 --> 44:04.520 This is not true of everyone because there are many people in the Adventist church 44:04.520 --> 44:05.600 that do know the gospel. 44:06.200 --> 44:08.580 But people that only know the traditional teaching... 44:08.580 --> 44:11.140 Can I summarize it and see if I'm right or wrong here, okay? 44:11.700 --> 44:16.540 When a person is converted under the teachings that you have been saying have 44:16.540 --> 44:23.180 not been correct, when they were converted, in one sense, they still 44:23.180 --> 44:24.880 weren't sure of heaven. 44:24.880 --> 44:28.060 They weren't sure they were going to make it because of this doctrine. 44:28.060 --> 44:28.380 Correct. 44:28.680 --> 44:33.660 Which simply says that in 1844, Jesus started investigating people, 44:33.860 --> 44:37.980 started going back on the records, and as he looked at those records, 44:38.100 --> 44:40.240 somewhere along the line, he was going to come up to you in the present. 44:40.300 --> 44:40.520 That's right. 44:40.880 --> 44:42.420 He could come into judgment at any time. 44:42.540 --> 44:44.800 Okay, and when he did come to you in the present, what did he do? 44:45.460 --> 44:48.560 He would weigh my life in the balances of the sanctuary. 44:48.700 --> 44:50.620 Even though you were converted already? 44:50.620 --> 44:51.220 Yes. 44:51.360 --> 44:55.700 According to the President of the General Conference, Pastor Branson, unless my life 44:55.700 --> 44:58.280 is found in harmony with the law of God, I'm a goner. 44:58.640 --> 45:01.900 And he says in one other place, and I may quote him again, if it is found 45:01.900 --> 45:05.620 that one has broken even a single precept, and this transgression is unconfessed, 45:06.720 --> 45:08.780 he'll be dealt with just as if he'd broken all ten. 45:09.040 --> 45:10.800 So here salvation even depends on good memory. 45:11.000 --> 45:16.560 And the interesting thing is that it came to mean not only the Ten Commandments, 45:16.560 --> 45:19.100 but all of the ideas and concepts of Ellen G. 45:19.240 --> 45:21.260 White, which ties the problem together. 45:21.260 --> 45:24.940 Okay, so a person that was converted, he was still looking toward this 45:24.940 --> 45:25.860 investigative judgment. 45:25.980 --> 45:26.960 Would he ever know while he's living? 45:28.460 --> 45:31.520 Usually Adventists have said this would happen towards the end of time, 45:31.600 --> 45:35.500 but nevertheless popularly in homiletic presentations it has often been said, 45:35.620 --> 45:37.120 your name may come up at any time. 45:37.340 --> 45:41.780 And instead of the glad, joyous note that should characterize every Christian that 45:41.780 --> 45:47.140 knows the good news, so many earnest Adventists have been bowed down with 45:47.140 --> 45:48.920 guilt, wondering whether they're going to make it. 45:49.080 --> 45:52.360 And John, we have even said and argued theologically, you can remember that, 45:52.460 --> 45:55.180 well, maybe some of your probations have closed and you don't know it. 45:55.340 --> 45:56.420 What a thought, you know. 45:56.600 --> 45:56.760 Yeah. 45:57.660 --> 46:02.420 In other words, at that point, if you're to be the progenitors, 46:02.700 --> 46:07.740 the ones that advance the Reformation, it seems to me that you've picked up the 46:07.740 --> 46:11.020 very theology that the Reformation was working against. 46:11.020 --> 46:13.220 John, that's correct. 46:13.460 --> 46:17.960 It can be said this way, that the Council of Trent opposed the Reformation and began 46:17.960 --> 46:22.960 to talk about an infused righteousness, the God medicinally infused righteousness, 46:23.180 --> 46:25.120 so man could be blessed and justified. 46:25.400 --> 46:28.020 In other words, Christ, when a conversion came into your life and gave you the 46:28.020 --> 46:29.420 power, and you've got to work it out after that. 46:29.460 --> 46:29.940 That's right. 46:30.020 --> 46:34.800 And tragically, that has been the theological belief of many Adventists. 46:34.860 --> 46:37.880 They think their sins were forgiven when they came in, but then they roll up their 46:37.880 --> 46:40.880 sleeves, they cooperate with God, and get such a sanctification, 46:41.220 --> 46:44.480 that that sanctification can meet the gaze of the lawgiver. 46:44.940 --> 46:45.820 See, which ignores... 46:45.820 --> 46:48.520 Some people say, you know, but that sounds just like the gospel I believe. 46:48.720 --> 46:50.500 Why are you saying that's not the gospel? 46:50.660 --> 46:54.740 Because the infinite law of God takes account of our motives, you know. 46:55.060 --> 46:59.200 It looks at every drive, even to desire sin as sin. 46:59.500 --> 47:01.100 It looks at our mixed motives. 47:01.440 --> 47:05.820 And you see that the teaching of the Bible on depravity says that it's not enough, 47:05.900 --> 47:07.580 even if we keep the law from now on. 47:07.580 --> 47:10.280 One slip will fix us, one slip will ruin us. 47:10.540 --> 47:14.120 The law demands perfect thoughts, perfect desires, perfect motives from the 47:14.120 --> 47:15.260 beginning of your experience. 47:15.580 --> 47:18.760 None of us will ever have this to offer, unless we're saved by grace alone, 47:18.840 --> 47:19.560 we'll not be saved. 47:19.700 --> 47:23.160 But you see, the interesting thing too was that it emphasized that sin was an act, 47:23.220 --> 47:23.800 not an attitude. 47:24.080 --> 47:24.300 Right. 47:24.320 --> 47:26.440 It's an Old Testament concept, rather than New Testament. 47:26.820 --> 47:30.800 So that many Adventists, faithful Adventists, good Adventists, are really 47:30.800 --> 47:33.140 Old Testament believers, not New Testament Christians. 47:33.520 --> 47:36.600 Because they believe that sin is an act, not an attitude. 47:36.600 --> 47:39.500 Let me see if we can get this into some other terms for people. 47:39.800 --> 47:43.460 Let's take the terms, you know, these big hairy theological words like 47:43.460 --> 47:45.300 justification and sanctification. 47:45.780 --> 47:46.180 Okay. 47:46.600 --> 47:51.240 What I hear you saying is that Seventh-day Adventists got those words confused and 47:51.240 --> 47:52.160 turned them around. 47:52.620 --> 47:55.040 And let's put this in language for the layman. 47:55.080 --> 47:55.860 What is justification? 47:56.180 --> 47:56.900 What is sanctification? 47:57.060 --> 47:58.200 Let's come up with an illustration here. 47:58.360 --> 47:59.780 Let me say something first, John. 48:00.200 --> 48:04.100 It's very difficult to put all Adventists in one bag, because that would not be 48:04.100 --> 48:04.340 correct. 48:04.340 --> 48:06.240 There's a wide spectrum of Adventists. 48:06.540 --> 48:11.180 I'll hardly say anything tonight that a large number of our scholars would not say 48:11.180 --> 48:13.140 amen to in their hearts, at least. 48:13.740 --> 48:15.320 And we're going to bring this up, though. 48:15.360 --> 48:18.360 You have 3.8 million Adventists, and how many of them are scholars? 48:19.180 --> 48:22.240 Well, an influential, very tiny minority, but influential. 48:22.800 --> 48:23.420 How influential? 48:23.640 --> 48:24.720 Right, let's talk about justification. 48:25.300 --> 48:29.420 The term justification, it's the same word in the Greek as righteousness. 48:30.200 --> 48:32.920 And what it means is the verdict of acquittal. 48:32.920 --> 48:35.280 The verdict of forgiveness, but more than forgiveness. 48:36.120 --> 48:39.180 The imputation, the recting to us of the merits of Christ. 48:39.440 --> 48:43.940 So we stand without guilt, spotless before God, as spotless as His own Son. 48:44.400 --> 48:49.020 For as long as we believe in His Son, you can never be lost while trusting the 48:49.020 --> 48:49.600 merits of Jesus. 48:49.920 --> 48:51.800 That justification is continual. 48:52.140 --> 48:55.560 It's over you like the cloud that protected Israel from the sun. 48:56.040 --> 48:59.700 And the Reformation made the point, for illustration, that it didn't take 48:59.700 --> 49:00.840 place inside of you. 49:00.840 --> 49:02.280 It took place outside of you. 49:02.280 --> 49:03.680 It is reckoned, it is external. 49:03.840 --> 49:05.080 My righteousness is in heaven. 49:05.180 --> 49:07.400 That's why I can't lose it, so long as I'm trusting Him. 49:07.720 --> 49:09.480 And sanctification, quickly, sanctification. 49:09.640 --> 49:12.880 But sanctification is the fruit of it, whereby the Holy Spirit comes in and 49:12.880 --> 49:15.960 begins that lifetime process of changing my life. 49:16.120 --> 49:18.600 Because God does not justify any He does not sanctify. 49:18.700 --> 49:20.060 He gives His gifts with both hands. 49:20.340 --> 49:21.880 We're not talking about cheap grace. 49:22.380 --> 49:25.720 Obedience to the law of God is the fruit of salvation, but it's never the root. 49:26.240 --> 49:29.660 Now, with many Adventists, they've sadly taken hold of the pagan philosophy, 49:29.660 --> 49:31.380 if I'm good, God will love me. 49:31.500 --> 49:32.780 The gospel is the opposite. 49:32.960 --> 49:34.460 God loves you, though you're not good. 49:34.580 --> 49:35.980 And if you believe it, you'll become good. 49:36.180 --> 49:39.660 And also, this whole idea that I can be perfect once I'm converted. 49:39.960 --> 49:42.880 The New Testament knows nothing of sinless perfectionism. 49:42.960 --> 49:44.920 The Bible says, in many things we all offend. 49:45.140 --> 49:47.020 The Lord's Prayer, forgive us our trespasses. 49:47.380 --> 49:48.760 You know, none of us will ever outgrow it. 49:49.060 --> 49:50.100 But it's not willful sin. 49:50.320 --> 49:54.200 The Christian does not willfully cherish known sin. 49:54.280 --> 49:55.720 He hates his sins. 49:55.720 --> 49:59.620 But knowing he's accepted, he's mainly there to overcoming it. 50:00.140 --> 50:01.080 Glad that you're here. 50:01.220 --> 50:05.680 And gentlemen, on the platform tonight, you are written up in Time Magazine as we 50:05.680 --> 50:06.400 do this show. 50:06.880 --> 50:16.120 And Walter Ray, they say about you in Time Magazine, Ford's challenge was mild 50:16.120 --> 50:19.800 compared with a bombshell dropped by Walter T. 50:19.880 --> 50:23.060 Ray of Patterson, California, a veteran pastor. 50:23.920 --> 50:25.260 Ray, in the course of Ph.D. 50:25.380 --> 50:31.880 research, stumbled across some long buried writings by forgotten divines that matched 50:31.880 --> 50:35.420 huge swatches of Prophet White's books. 50:35.480 --> 50:41.860 And it goes on to say, Ray was the first to document the vast scale of borrowing 50:41.860 --> 50:46.640 from 75 assorted books on history, doctrine, and the Bible. 50:47.240 --> 50:52.640 And last April, Ray issued his full findings in a book titled The White Lie. 50:52.780 --> 50:54.900 You're holding The White Lie in your hand. 50:55.920 --> 50:59.800 For people that don't know who Ellen G. 51:00.020 --> 51:02.860 White is, tell us who was Ellen G. 51:02.980 --> 51:03.220 White. 51:04.540 --> 51:07.080 Well, of course, I had no Adventist background, John. 51:07.300 --> 51:11.620 I was, I came into the church, I was a Christian before I was an 51:11.620 --> 51:14.700 Adventist, but I was not denominationally oriented. 51:14.700 --> 51:18.040 So when I became an Adventist, I became acquainted with Mrs. White, 51:18.140 --> 51:20.020 which is the Seventh-day Adventist prophet. 51:20.840 --> 51:24.920 And I was always a devotee of Mrs. White, began to read. 51:25.500 --> 51:26.600 She fascinated me. 51:26.980 --> 51:31.300 She covered all the doctrines from Genesis to Revelation, and our Christology and 51:31.300 --> 51:34.680 Eschatology, mainly our main points of doctrine. 51:35.440 --> 51:40.360 And I had spent probably 25 years of my lifetime devoted to her study. 51:40.860 --> 51:45.220 I had written three books, Bible biographies, Old and New Testament, 51:45.500 --> 51:48.760 in which I had accumulated all of the published and unpublished works of Mrs. 51:48.780 --> 51:51.080 White and sent it out to the Bible houses of the Adventists. 51:51.340 --> 51:53.140 They were used in all of our schools, universities. 51:53.800 --> 51:56.880 Also the book of Daniel and Revelation, all of her statements I could find, 51:56.980 --> 52:01.400 I had sent that out, but not commented on them, merely because I felt that they were 52:01.400 --> 52:03.920 something special that had been given by divine revelation. 52:04.740 --> 52:07.520 Some critics have said I believed in verbal inspiration. 52:07.660 --> 52:08.920 I really don't believe that's correct. 52:08.920 --> 52:13.160 But I did believe they had authority, and much more authority than anyone else 52:13.160 --> 52:13.580 that had written. 52:13.860 --> 52:17.820 Des, would it be fair to say that the man sitting next to you has published more on 52:17.820 --> 52:18.120 Ellen G. 52:18.260 --> 52:19.100 White than anybody else? 52:19.620 --> 52:24.380 Walter Ray has done more research on the origin of the Ellen G. 52:24.480 --> 52:26.600 White writings than any person that's ever lived. 52:27.020 --> 52:30.580 So we're taking not only contemporary Adventists, but the Adventists over a 52:30.580 --> 52:31.760 century, that is certain. 52:32.120 --> 52:38.120 And you loved her, believed in her, knew her writings, published them? 52:38.120 --> 52:42.240 I think anyone who does that, John, is known in Adventism as a conservative. 52:42.500 --> 52:44.820 That is, they really are a true believer. 52:45.140 --> 52:47.260 And I think it's fair to say I was a true believer. 52:47.380 --> 52:51.440 Okay, and as you had these large pastorates in different places, 52:51.640 --> 52:53.900 people gave you books. 52:54.460 --> 52:55.000 What happened? 52:55.080 --> 52:58.180 The first book that came to my attention while I was in Florida from one of our 52:58.180 --> 53:02.220 eminent doctors, Dr. Kress, and gave me the book Sketches from the Life of Paul. 53:02.220 --> 53:06.360 It was written by Coney Baranhausen, and I naively started to read it. 53:06.400 --> 53:09.180 And one of the members who was an older member of Knowledgeable said, well, 53:09.200 --> 53:15.920 that's the book that the Adventists would rather forget because Mrs. White's Life of 53:15.920 --> 53:20.600 Paul, or Sketches from the Life of Paul, was largely taken from that material. 53:20.660 --> 53:25.000 So I did a study and found that the criticism was correct, that there were 53:25.000 --> 53:25.480 similarities. 53:25.860 --> 53:27.060 What did you think when you saw that? 53:27.060 --> 53:31.060 I was shocked because we had been taught... you have to understand what 53:31.060 --> 53:32.880 you're taught in Adventism, at least in our generation. 53:32.880 --> 53:33.480 Okay, what were you taught? 53:33.760 --> 53:38.260 We were taught that Mrs. White was not influenced by outside sources. 53:39.120 --> 53:42.020 And while I never thought that through at the time, it sounded logical. 53:42.380 --> 53:44.120 So that was one thing that bothered me. 53:44.300 --> 53:45.440 Where did you think that she got this? 53:45.800 --> 53:50.800 Well, she got it directly from God, by revelation or inspiration without 53:50.800 --> 53:51.800 outside influences. 53:51.800 --> 53:57.140 Second is, in most of Mrs. White's counsel, she counseled against all of our 53:57.140 --> 53:58.940 ministers using outside sources. 53:59.460 --> 54:02.580 So as a theologian, I found it very difficult to get my degrees without 54:02.580 --> 54:06.340 reading all of this, you know, quote so far, so-called trash and outside 54:06.340 --> 54:06.760 world. 54:07.340 --> 54:10.260 And we weren't supposed to use this. 54:10.860 --> 54:15.020 And so it was shocking to find from the standpoint, wait a minute, she was using 54:15.020 --> 54:16.760 what she condemned and said we shouldn't use. 54:16.940 --> 54:19.540 So your curiosity was at least awakened. 54:19.540 --> 54:20.840 It was at least awakened. 54:20.960 --> 54:25.460 And I began to correspond with the White Estate, which is the official organization 54:25.460 --> 54:27.020 for handling the doctrines of Ellen G. 54:27.140 --> 54:27.320 White. 54:27.800 --> 54:30.100 And I expressed some of my concern. 54:30.320 --> 54:32.200 And they said, well, these are not new concerns. 54:32.360 --> 54:34.660 And they pointed out that some had found this before. 54:35.140 --> 54:35.480 Then what? 54:35.560 --> 54:39.160 Then I moved to California and someone else gave me another book, the 54:39.160 --> 54:41.500 Hanedersheim, his Old and New Testament. 54:41.880 --> 54:44.320 I found that he also, he was a converted Jew. 54:44.700 --> 54:45.980 He'd written on the life of Christ. 54:45.980 --> 54:51.000 Lo and behold, I found that some of the format for patriarchs and prophets written 54:51.000 --> 54:51.580 by Ellen G. 54:51.740 --> 54:53.140 White had the same titles. 54:53.340 --> 54:54.240 I put them in the book. 54:55.000 --> 54:58.160 And also that some of the statements were taken directly from Hanedersheim. 54:58.560 --> 54:59.940 And this was devastating. 55:00.460 --> 55:04.580 In fact, I used to say facetiously at that time the guilt was overwhelming and I used 55:04.580 --> 55:07.700 to do the study under the bed with the lights out because I was, you know, 55:07.720 --> 55:08.280 really nervous. 55:09.100 --> 55:14.360 But I notified the White Estate and they wrote back and encouraged me in the study 55:14.360 --> 55:18.840 and I kept the letters saying, you know, keep us informed, although this 55:18.840 --> 55:21.140 is not new, we're interested in some of these angles. 55:22.100 --> 55:26.080 Well, I went to a public meeting and there some member of the White Estate denied 55:26.080 --> 55:28.360 that there was any borrowing in the book Desire of Ages. 55:28.440 --> 55:32.100 By that time I had found a book by Hannah, which was an English writer on the life of 55:32.100 --> 55:32.400 Christ. 55:32.780 --> 55:34.580 And this was the most shocking of all. 55:34.960 --> 55:35.100 Why? 55:35.400 --> 55:39.700 Well, it was shocking because chapter after chapter she was plagiarizing or 55:39.700 --> 55:43.940 taking whole sections of that book and paraphrasing it. 55:43.940 --> 55:49.100 So when a person says you can't find three or four sentences that she copied, 55:49.200 --> 55:49.980 this is deceitful. 55:50.680 --> 55:53.080 It wasn't the sentences that she wanted to copy. 55:53.240 --> 55:57.120 So the White Estate was saying that there was no borrowing and here you had all the 55:57.120 --> 55:58.140 books showing that it was. 55:58.160 --> 55:58.660 This is true. 55:58.740 --> 55:59.200 So what did you do? 55:59.520 --> 56:01.660 Well, then we asked for a meeting. 56:01.880 --> 56:03.760 We asked for a meeting with the scholars of the church. 56:03.880 --> 56:08.800 And in January of 80, with picking and choosing, we were allowed to sit before 18 56:08.800 --> 56:09.220 scholars. 56:09.940 --> 56:12.920 And after two days, those 18 scholars voted six motions. 56:12.920 --> 56:16.060 One was that the borrowing was more extensive than they had believed, 56:16.180 --> 56:17.060 that it was really shocking. 56:17.480 --> 56:20.900 Second is that it should be brought to the attention of the church immediately in 56:20.900 --> 56:22.320 seminars and study groups. 56:22.780 --> 56:27.220 Third, I should be given scholarly help to work it out into a printed form. 56:28.060 --> 56:30.920 They had discouraged me from publishing anything. 56:31.680 --> 56:34.260 And that's important because when I went before the committee, I didn't have 56:34.260 --> 56:34.800 anything published. 56:34.880 --> 56:35.980 They said, you should have this published. 56:36.280 --> 56:40.320 And I said, well, you've forbade it and don't think that you'll be the only ones 56:40.320 --> 56:42.820 that will read it if I go to the trouble of publishing it. 56:42.860 --> 56:43.520 So I hadn't published. 56:44.020 --> 56:46.080 So they said, well, we'll help you get it in this form. 56:46.440 --> 56:47.860 And then they gave me a vote of thanks. 56:48.400 --> 56:51.780 Well, we were elated because we felt that this was a problem that had long been 56:51.780 --> 56:54.060 overdue, had been discussed in scholarly circles. 56:54.380 --> 56:56.360 I will grant that scholars do have some benefits. 56:58.760 --> 57:01.260 But nonetheless, the church as a whole had not known this. 57:01.640 --> 57:04.780 And it is erroneous to say that the church has always known this. 57:05.060 --> 57:06.900 If they have always known it, why was I fired? 57:06.960 --> 57:07.900 And why did they meet with me? 57:07.920 --> 57:08.960 And why was the committee upset? 57:09.040 --> 57:09.680 And why did they vote? 57:09.680 --> 57:11.160 So they didn't. 57:11.420 --> 57:16.640 Well, within about 60 days, the President's Advisory Committee of the 57:16.640 --> 57:20.960 General Conference wrote a letter, which I put a copy, I think, in a book and 57:20.960 --> 57:22.380 said, forget it. 57:22.520 --> 57:23.600 We'll take it from here. 57:24.080 --> 57:26.420 We'll notify the people what we think they should know. 57:26.620 --> 57:28.700 And you go back to your work as a pastor. 57:28.980 --> 57:29.680 And then what did you do? 57:30.420 --> 57:33.920 Well, I wrote them a letter and said, well, it evidently the church has decided 57:33.920 --> 57:35.600 that I should not be the one. 57:35.600 --> 57:39.860 And they felt that I was too harsh in my judgments and perhaps too negative in my 57:39.860 --> 57:40.800 approach or conclusion. 57:41.240 --> 57:42.500 So I said, the church has spoken. 57:42.640 --> 57:45.220 I had a decision whether I wanted to stay with the system or get out. 57:45.560 --> 57:47.540 And I wanted to stay with the system and work within it. 57:47.820 --> 57:53.540 My purpose was to lower the voice in the church and the administration on Ellen G. 57:53.680 --> 57:56.900 White and to put Jesus Christ back in the center of the church where I felt it 57:56.900 --> 57:57.720 really was wrong. 57:57.960 --> 58:02.440 And I felt that Mrs. White, from my study and research, had been a deterrent. 58:02.440 --> 58:06.240 She was the one that endorsed the 2300 days that Des talks about. 58:06.620 --> 58:09.300 She was the one that endorsed all the doctrines we held officially. 58:09.780 --> 58:13.800 And therefore no one was allowed to go beyond the thinking and the endorsement of 58:13.800 --> 58:14.160 Ellen G. 58:14.320 --> 58:15.560 White and plow new ground. 58:15.760 --> 58:17.740 So I merely wanted to lower. 58:18.160 --> 58:22.120 And my premise was the five books that Adventists count on, the conflict series 58:22.120 --> 58:28.300 from Genesis to Revelation, were thus came by human means rather than divine 58:28.300 --> 58:28.920 revelation. 58:29.140 --> 58:30.160 This they didn't want to accept. 58:30.160 --> 58:34.260 Walter, you have touched on the writings of Ellen G. 58:34.380 --> 58:34.580 White. 58:34.920 --> 58:36.800 You've published more than anybody else. 58:36.920 --> 58:39.140 You've done more research in this area than anybody else. 58:39.780 --> 58:43.840 In terms of... do you use the word plagiarism? 58:44.280 --> 58:45.380 I do, they don't. 58:46.000 --> 58:46.840 Define it for us. 58:46.880 --> 58:47.640 What is plagiarism? 58:48.820 --> 58:52.580 The first time I was acquainted with the word was when John Dart from the Los 58:52.580 --> 58:56.360 Angeles Times wrote his article in November and asked me the question, 58:56.440 --> 58:58.160 did I believe that Mrs. White was a plagiarist? 58:58.160 --> 59:01.300 I asked him his definition and he said, I take an amoral view. 59:01.580 --> 59:03.860 That is, I'm not imputing any good or bad motives to it. 59:04.040 --> 59:08.320 I'm merely saying that this is a person who uses others' material and use it as 59:08.320 --> 59:08.680 their own. 59:08.740 --> 59:10.760 I said, in that case, I accept the word plagiarism. 59:10.980 --> 59:11.560 I still do. 59:12.020 --> 59:16.880 I think that word has been bantered around in the case of Mrs. White for a hundred 59:16.880 --> 59:17.280 years. 59:17.580 --> 59:18.020 Ellen G. 59:18.080 --> 59:23.760 White is the lady that has been known as the prophet with inside of Seventh-day 59:23.760 --> 59:24.280 Adventists. 59:25.040 --> 59:31.240 And it was her interpretation of Daniel chapter 8 on the sanctuary and the 59:31.240 --> 59:35.760 investigative judgment that when William Miller said Jesus was going to come in 59:35.760 --> 59:38.220 1844 when Jesus did not come, Ellen G. 59:38.320 --> 59:43.260 White came on the scene and gave this interpretation and said, Jesus actually 59:43.260 --> 59:44.720 wasn't talking about coming to this earth. 59:44.780 --> 59:47.680 He was talking about coming to the heavenly sanctuary, just switching 59:47.680 --> 59:48.620 compartments. 59:48.900 --> 59:54.220 And at that point, Seventh-day Adventism was off and running and she was its 59:54.220 --> 59:54.520 leader. 59:54.700 --> 59:56.100 She was the one that spurred it on. 59:56.620 --> 01:00:00.040 Now, as time went along, how many books did she actually write? 01:00:00.540 --> 01:00:02.320 They claim something like 70 books. 01:00:03.040 --> 01:00:04.200 That includes compilations. 01:00:04.540 --> 01:00:05.680 Many of which are repetitive. 01:00:06.380 --> 01:00:12.360 Okay, and these writings have been a source of authority, supposedly not as 01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:16.780 authoritative as scripture, but in actual practice held up to be the thing that 01:00:16.780 --> 01:00:19.480 gives you guidance in terms of what the scriptures are actually saying. 01:00:19.540 --> 01:00:20.520 Is that a correct statement? 01:00:20.520 --> 01:00:25.240 I think it's fair what Ford is trying to approach in that we claim, and rightfully 01:00:25.240 --> 01:00:28.380 so, now I've proven that, and this is what I couldn't understand. 01:00:28.920 --> 01:00:32.760 If you claim as Adventist that we did not get any of our doctrines from Mrs. White, 01:00:33.240 --> 01:00:36.000 why do you get upset when I prove that you're absolutely right? 01:00:36.040 --> 01:00:36.740 She got it from others. 01:00:37.160 --> 01:00:38.180 That's what I couldn't understand. 01:00:38.820 --> 01:00:42.100 And so she became an endorser of other ideas. 01:00:42.200 --> 01:00:45.180 The problem was we accepted the endorsement rather than the theology. 01:00:45.180 --> 01:00:47.000 All right, you wrote a book called The White Lie. 01:00:47.160 --> 01:00:47.340 Correct. 01:00:47.500 --> 01:00:48.940 Okay, would you hold it up for us there? 01:00:48.940 --> 01:00:54.340 Inside of this book, you have how many pages of just column after column where 01:00:54.340 --> 01:00:54.980 you put Ellen G. 01:00:55.120 --> 01:01:00.200 White's writing on one side, and then you put the author that she copied it from on 01:01:00.200 --> 01:01:02.000 the other, just going right straight down the page. 01:01:02.020 --> 01:01:02.980 Approximately 150 pages. 01:01:03.380 --> 01:01:05.700 150 pages for anybody that wants to see it. 01:01:05.700 --> 01:01:06.780 Where can they get that book, Walter? 01:01:07.420 --> 01:01:10.960 It's published by M&R Publications in Turlock, California. 01:01:11.100 --> 01:01:11.300 Great. 01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:12.180 How can they get it? 01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:14.740 It's just box 2056. 01:01:15.420 --> 01:01:17.980 All right, we'll put that up at the end of the program. 01:01:17.980 --> 01:01:20.060 Des, you've also got a book that you... 01:01:20.060 --> 01:01:25.420 This is the manuscript I wrote for the church, nearly 1,000 pages, on which my 01:01:25.420 --> 01:01:27.080 trial took place at Glacier View. 01:01:27.220 --> 01:01:33.180 And this book is also available from Desmond Ford Publications, Bullard Drive, 01:01:33.260 --> 01:01:39.320 that's B-U-L-L-A-R-D, Newcastle, California, 95658. 01:01:39.340 --> 01:01:40.240 And you may be putting it on the screen. 01:01:40.240 --> 01:01:41.400 I'll put that on the screen as well. 01:01:41.520 --> 01:01:44.780 And we ought to say that that is basically your doctoral dissertation that you did 01:01:44.780 --> 01:01:45.160 with F.F. 01:01:45.180 --> 01:01:45.940 Bruce at Manchester. 01:01:45.940 --> 01:01:49.340 No, it does include some insights from it, but this is the doctrine... 01:01:49.340 --> 01:01:51.960 this is the doctrine I wrote for the church, protesting against the traditional 01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:52.180 view... 01:01:52.180 --> 01:01:53.420 That's the cut-down version, right? 01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:54.740 This is the whole thing. 01:01:55.080 --> 01:01:55.740 This is the whole thing. 01:01:56.020 --> 01:01:56.340 Okay. 01:01:56.560 --> 01:01:58.800 And that's written specifically on what? 01:01:59.080 --> 01:02:02.660 This is covering most of the doctoral problems of Seventh-day Adventism, 01:02:02.820 --> 01:02:06.400 which center around the misuse of Ellen White and the investigative judgment. 01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:07.280 Okay. 01:02:07.940 --> 01:02:12.380 Which you concluded she was wrong in her view. 01:02:12.540 --> 01:02:13.040 Yes, that's right. 01:02:13.040 --> 01:02:16.140 And you brought the denomination back to Scripture. 01:02:16.200 --> 01:02:18.280 Yeah, I do not regard Ellen White as a doctrinal authority. 01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:20.200 She didn't regard herself as a doctrinal authority. 01:02:20.420 --> 01:02:21.980 Time and again said only the Bible. 01:02:22.100 --> 01:02:24.460 But you're saying the scholars have always known that. 01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:25.340 They've known it for decades. 01:02:25.380 --> 01:02:29.020 But the reason they fired him was not because he had a different nuance in his 01:02:29.020 --> 01:02:29.380 idea. 01:02:29.460 --> 01:02:33.080 They could have accepted that had not Mrs. White endorsed, and he was really 01:02:33.080 --> 01:02:34.680 challenging the endorsement of Ellen G. 01:02:34.740 --> 01:02:34.820 White. 01:02:34.820 --> 01:02:36.800 Yes, Ellen White was threatened by the presentation. 01:02:37.040 --> 01:02:37.300 Okay. 01:02:37.620 --> 01:02:38.180 And so we come back. 01:02:38.180 --> 01:02:40.560 How much was actually taken from other writers? 01:02:40.660 --> 01:02:41.420 How much have you found? 01:02:41.420 --> 01:02:46.060 Well, I think it's fair to say that in the latest ministry magazine of the 01:02:46.060 --> 01:02:50.200 denomination, which the Time magazine talks about, they have for the first time 01:02:50.200 --> 01:02:55.740 in Adventism, to my knowledge, admitted that there was a vast amount of 01:02:55.740 --> 01:02:56.580 material copied. 01:02:56.800 --> 01:03:01.520 And they have said in their publication that they have found no book she wrote 01:03:01.520 --> 01:03:03.200 that does not show copy work. 01:03:03.700 --> 01:03:07.240 They have found her diaries also had copy work. 01:03:07.640 --> 01:03:10.360 They have found her visions also had copy work. 01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:16.760 And that they figured it would take a decade to survey the at least 1,200 books 01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:20.560 they have at the present time to find out the extent of the copy work. 01:03:20.660 --> 01:03:22.840 But it was vastly more than what they'd seen. 01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:26.720 The problem, again, was if they had confessed that or admitted it, 01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.980 they don't like the word confession, before the book, The White Lie, 01:03:30.080 --> 01:03:32.540 had been put out, perhaps there would have been no need for The White Lie. 01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:33.700 But they didn't do that. 01:03:33.740 --> 01:03:35.480 You actually approached the Ellen G. 01:03:35.540 --> 01:03:38.740 White estate as well as the denominational leaders with the fact this is the way it 01:03:38.740 --> 01:03:38.880 is. 01:03:38.880 --> 01:03:41.600 It's not... it was devastating to yourself personally. 01:03:41.740 --> 01:03:44.340 You were shocked when you found this out because you had always believed in her 01:03:44.340 --> 01:03:44.720 yourself. 01:03:45.040 --> 01:03:48.020 But then when you actually saw it, you said, OK, this is the way it is. 01:03:48.160 --> 01:03:52.900 And you didn't think it would be a disrupting of Seventh-day Adventism to 01:03:52.900 --> 01:03:54.900 say, OK, this is the way it was. 01:03:55.120 --> 01:03:55.880 She had some good points. 01:03:55.940 --> 01:03:56.680 She had some bad points. 01:03:56.740 --> 01:03:58.260 She wasn't inspired and inerrant. 01:03:58.720 --> 01:04:01.240 She was an advisor concerning Scripture. 01:04:01.400 --> 01:04:03.620 And we should hold her that way and keep on rolling, right? 01:04:05.040 --> 01:04:09.020 Actually, I... they felt that it would be more disruptive if I printed the book than 01:04:09.020 --> 01:04:09.660 if they did. 01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:10.900 I consented to that. 01:04:11.040 --> 01:04:14.140 I said, I'm willing for you to bring this material if you'll do it. 01:04:14.500 --> 01:04:18.200 But within three months, the Prexad letter said, no, we will not do it. 01:04:18.260 --> 01:04:19.140 What is the Prexad letter? 01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:23.080 Well, the Prexad letter was the political arm of the church which overrode the 01:04:23.080 --> 01:04:24.860 committee that sat with me and voted in my favor. 01:04:24.860 --> 01:04:25.940 What does Prexad mean for people who don't know? 01:04:26.200 --> 01:04:27.840 President's Advisory Committee. 01:04:28.240 --> 01:04:29.080 That's what the man shorted. 01:04:29.240 --> 01:04:29.720 Prexad, OK. 01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:30.820 Prexad. 01:04:30.820 --> 01:04:34.700 And in essence, the letter says, we'll go back to harvesting, gathering or 01:04:34.700 --> 01:04:37.700 gathering money or whatever pastors do and we'll take it from here. 01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:40.160 And so the church was not to know. 01:04:40.220 --> 01:04:41.520 That was unacceptable to me. 01:04:42.020 --> 01:04:46.080 I do feel that people would have been less threatened and it could have been 01:04:46.080 --> 01:04:51.500 accomplished on a more favorable plane if the church had revealed by some method 01:04:51.500 --> 01:04:52.860 that which I had to reveal. 01:04:53.100 --> 01:04:56.260 Evangelicals watching would say, hey, if you got Jesus, why is it so 01:04:56.260 --> 01:04:57.900 important that you have to have LNG-Y? 01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:01.240 In my view, which differs from Ford, we do not have Jesus. 01:05:02.200 --> 01:05:02.860 Because of what? 01:05:02.900 --> 01:05:05.640 We have made Ellen White the Adventist Savior. 01:05:06.240 --> 01:05:09.540 And I think that if we could lower the voice and get rid of the all or 01:05:09.540 --> 01:05:12.940 non-concept of Ellen White, then we could put Christ in the center of the church. 01:05:13.060 --> 01:05:13.820 You say that's right, Des? 01:05:13.940 --> 01:05:15.880 Johnny, it needs a bit of opposition, so can I come on? 01:05:15.900 --> 01:05:16.100 Certainly. 01:05:18.620 --> 01:05:21.020 Spurgeon once said, he that doesn't read will never be read. 01:05:21.220 --> 01:05:22.600 He that doesn't quote will never be quoted. 01:05:22.760 --> 01:05:25.620 He who doesn't use other people's brains shows he has no brains of his own. 01:05:25.620 --> 01:05:30.780 The early pages of his book on commentaries and commenting warns people 01:05:30.780 --> 01:05:34.220 not to read books from people that haven't read widely. 01:05:34.700 --> 01:05:37.260 I've written a dozen books, at least nine or ten of which have been published, 01:05:37.400 --> 01:05:41.140 and I read hundreds of books in connection with every book I ever write. 01:05:41.580 --> 01:05:43.140 But I have to be more careful in the 19th century. 01:05:43.300 --> 01:05:47.160 I can go into the stacks of the Library of Congress, and in every area, history, 01:05:47.420 --> 01:05:51.960 religion, health, medicine, I find people using ad nauseum stuff without credit. 01:05:52.180 --> 01:05:53.140 It still happens today. 01:05:53.140 --> 01:05:57.020 Here, for example, is a Protestant writer, very well known, J.S. 01:05:57.080 --> 01:06:01.160 Whale, Christian Doctrine, using word-for-word, another one that I've 01:06:01.160 --> 01:06:05.160 quoted in this page, Brunner, word-for-word, without any quote marks, 01:06:05.260 --> 01:06:05.460 whatever. 01:06:05.700 --> 01:06:06.840 That's Protestant writers today. 01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:07.560 Here's a Catholic. 01:06:08.080 --> 01:06:11.080 Here's Fulton Sheen, using word-for-word stuff from Chester. 01:06:11.200 --> 01:06:12.320 Again, without quote marks. 01:06:12.360 --> 01:06:12.940 It still happens. 01:06:13.020 --> 01:06:14.320 But there is a difference in the 20th century. 01:06:14.500 --> 01:06:15.680 We are more careful. 01:06:16.040 --> 01:06:20.440 Now, it's quite clear that Ellen White recommended certain of the key books that 01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:21.300 she most used. 01:06:21.300 --> 01:06:23.160 She recommended them in the church papers. 01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:25.220 So, I don't really think she was trying to hide too much. 01:06:25.620 --> 01:06:29.380 Furthermore, there are many, many quotes where she speaks about the duty of 01:06:29.380 --> 01:06:34.360 gathering scattered gems of truth from erroneous settings and putting them in 01:06:34.360 --> 01:06:35.000 right settings. 01:06:35.240 --> 01:06:36.800 She said that even Jesus did that. 01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:40.360 And today, in scholarship, we know there's not a phrase in the Lord's Prayer that's 01:06:40.360 --> 01:06:40.740 original. 01:06:41.180 --> 01:06:44.960 Jesus did gather out of a lot of rubbish and sawdust the gems and put them 01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:45.220 together. 01:06:45.420 --> 01:06:47.460 And Ellen White felt she was doing that. 01:06:47.640 --> 01:06:50.960 I do not believe Ellen White was a deceptive or a cheat. 01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:52.420 I believe she's an honest Christian woman. 01:06:52.600 --> 01:06:54.860 But we have had a superstitious view about her as Adventist. 01:06:55.120 --> 01:06:55.900 And Walter is right. 01:06:55.980 --> 01:07:00.160 We have engaged in a type of idolatry which has been deleterious to Adventist 01:07:00.160 --> 01:07:00.920 Christian experience. 01:07:01.080 --> 01:07:06.740 The problem I find with that, John, is that she, for example, it's all right 01:07:06.740 --> 01:07:07.680 for someone to copy. 01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:10.820 The problem with not copying would be Mrs. White claimed to be inspired. 01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:11.920 She claimed to be a prophet. 01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:13.880 And she also really denied her borrowing. 01:07:14.020 --> 01:07:17.320 Now, let me read the ministry magazine saying that. 01:07:17.860 --> 01:07:20.980 Did Mrs. White make any attempt to conceal from Adventists? 01:07:21.300 --> 01:07:22.220 The answer is no. 01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:24.120 She even urged some, as Des said, to read. 01:07:24.400 --> 01:07:26.880 I'd like to let you see what kind of books she urged them to see. 01:07:26.940 --> 01:07:28.420 It wasn't the total one she copied from. 01:07:28.620 --> 01:07:30.240 But notice what they say on the next page. 01:07:30.580 --> 01:07:33.800 On the other hand, she did not generally draw particular attention to her use of 01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:34.280 other authors. 01:07:34.580 --> 01:07:35.140 I wish you had. 01:07:35.560 --> 01:07:39.900 I wish the church could produce one definitive statement ever in the life of 01:07:39.900 --> 01:07:40.280 Ellen G. 01:07:40.380 --> 01:07:44.740 White or James where she admitted openly that she was using someone else for that 01:07:44.740 --> 01:07:45.660 particular statement. 01:07:45.660 --> 01:07:49.640 If she just said, now Edersheim says, or Geeky says, or Farrar says. 01:07:50.060 --> 01:07:51.420 But you see, she never did that. 01:07:51.560 --> 01:07:52.640 So I think this is the problem. 01:07:52.760 --> 01:07:53.740 She did it in the health journals. 01:07:53.840 --> 01:07:54.520 I do agree. 01:07:54.860 --> 01:07:57.640 Yes, but now we're beginning to put space between the health journals. 01:07:57.800 --> 01:08:00.820 And we're saying, well, it's possible that in her health journals now, because some 01:08:00.820 --> 01:08:03.660 of the statements were ridiculous, she wasn't speaking as a prophet. 01:08:03.760 --> 01:08:05.520 She was speaking as an editor. 01:08:05.740 --> 01:08:09.120 And Arthur White is now saying this revolutionary idea, Des. 01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:09.920 It's on tape. 01:08:09.920 --> 01:08:13.760 And Bob Olson is saying, well, perhaps we're going to have to distinguish 01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:18.000 between when she was speaking as a prophet and when she was speaking as a compiler or 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:18.280 an author. 01:08:18.520 --> 01:08:18.820 Amen. 01:08:19.040 --> 01:08:19.660 Let's keep going. 01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:21.740 We're shifting from the superstitious view. 01:08:22.220 --> 01:08:25.980 I do not think we should put Adventists in a little box by themselves. 01:08:26.220 --> 01:08:30.840 I find in fundamentalist America, very superstitious views about the Bible. 01:08:31.040 --> 01:08:32.840 Trying to prove the Bible by science. 01:08:32.960 --> 01:08:35.440 This sort of approach is making science greater than the Bible. 01:08:35.520 --> 01:08:36.900 The Bible is self-authenticating. 01:08:37.260 --> 01:08:39.120 And so I don't think you should put Adventists in a separate camp. 01:08:39.120 --> 01:08:42.600 The fact is, most of American Protestantism has a superstitious view 01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:43.660 about how the Bible was written. 01:08:44.320 --> 01:08:47.980 Of course, the thing that puzzles me there is that we claim, and he's read it from 01:08:47.980 --> 01:08:50.420 Questions on Doctrine, we do not make Mrs. White canonical. 01:08:50.780 --> 01:08:53.360 But in every case, we go back to the Bible to prove Mrs. White. 01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:55.100 I thought it was the other way around. 01:08:55.180 --> 01:08:56.600 We were to prove Mrs. White by the Bible. 01:08:56.740 --> 01:08:59.380 Instead, if Mrs. White says it, then we say, well, the Bible did that too, 01:08:59.420 --> 01:08:59.700 you see. 01:08:59.780 --> 01:09:02.840 What would you say is the majority view of people concerning the Bible and Mrs. 01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:03.120 White? 01:09:03.300 --> 01:09:07.900 The majority view as a pastor of this church is unequivocally that Mrs. White is 01:09:07.900 --> 01:09:12.460 the authority, and if there is a question on biblical interpretation in our church, 01:09:12.500 --> 01:09:15.200 it is settled by the statements of Ellen G. 01:09:15.300 --> 01:09:17.180 White, not by the interpretation of the Bible. 01:09:17.300 --> 01:09:18.520 That's North America, not Europe. 01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:19.320 That's why it is. 01:09:19.340 --> 01:09:20.820 It's out, that's why I'm out. 01:09:21.060 --> 01:09:25.380 The group is the exclusive group, the exclusive community in Christendom to 01:09:25.380 --> 01:09:26.180 witness to Christ. 01:09:26.860 --> 01:09:27.320 The remnant. 01:09:28.240 --> 01:09:30.940 This is based on very poor exegesis. 01:09:31.160 --> 01:09:34.720 Revelation 12, 17 is speaking about a remnant yet to be developed. 01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:38.940 Questions on doctrine said that all faithful Christians are potential members 01:09:38.940 --> 01:09:40.720 of that remnant. 01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:44.380 But most small religious groups have a tendency to an inferiority complex, 01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:46.940 which is compensated for by some extravagant claims. 01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:50.120 Adventists have been guilty in that area. 01:09:50.240 --> 01:09:54.260 But the things that Walter has just said do fit many parts of North America, 01:09:54.400 --> 01:09:57.420 but it shouldn't be thought that this necessarily fits the whole world field. 01:09:57.660 --> 01:10:00.480 I know hundreds of ministers, I've trained hundreds of ministers in part, 01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:03.480 and they do know the gospel and they do speak of Jesus. 01:10:03.480 --> 01:10:05.720 What Walter says is true in many areas. 01:10:05.900 --> 01:10:08.140 It's not necessarily true of all of Adventism. 01:10:09.320 --> 01:10:14.220 The problem that I have noticed in preparing for this program before you men 01:10:14.220 --> 01:10:17.860 arrived was to meet with men in this area, and I'm not going to name names, 01:10:17.960 --> 01:10:20.940 because they felt they could lose their job. 01:10:21.680 --> 01:10:22.760 They know the gospel. 01:10:23.100 --> 01:10:23.460 Yes. 01:10:23.700 --> 01:10:24.940 They're afraid to say it. 01:10:25.500 --> 01:10:28.940 Thousands of Adventist ministers know the gospel, and many of the laity know the 01:10:28.940 --> 01:10:29.140 gospel. 01:10:29.160 --> 01:10:32.500 In Australia, you taught most of the guys that are in the clergy there. 01:10:32.500 --> 01:10:33.840 In Australia, yeah. 01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:37.260 Okay, taking all of this, what hope do you see for the future? 01:10:37.800 --> 01:10:40.440 If the church will be honest to God and get down the biblical evidence. 01:10:40.580 --> 01:10:43.560 There's no basis for 1844 as a biblical datum. 01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:44.760 The scholars know it. 01:10:44.820 --> 01:10:45.920 The church needs to admit it. 01:10:46.120 --> 01:10:48.660 If the church will be honest to God, God will bless the church. 01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:50.580 It has much to offer the Christian world. 01:10:50.840 --> 01:10:55.740 If the denomination takes the next step and hardens up the line and makes L.N.G. 01:10:55.800 --> 01:10:59.960 White an extra-scriptural source of authority, which is a possibility, 01:11:01.140 --> 01:11:05.220 denies justification by grace alone in the sense that the investigative judgment 01:11:05.220 --> 01:11:06.000 stays in there. 01:11:06.120 --> 01:11:09.500 We become a cult if we take those two steps which deny the gospel. 01:11:11.640 --> 01:11:18.240 The Advent movement of the early 1800s expected Jesus to return in the year of 01:11:18.240 --> 01:11:19.940 1844. 01:11:20.900 --> 01:11:22.900 Jesus did not appear at that time. 01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:28.180 Yet, instead of giving up on what they experienced as a false revival, 01:11:28.180 --> 01:11:33.860 some within this movement decided that they had the correct date, but had 01:11:33.860 --> 01:11:37.020 expected the wrong event to occur. 01:11:37.380 --> 01:11:43.880 The Millerites decided that in 1844, Jesus had entered the second compartment 01:11:43.880 --> 01:11:52.940 of the heavenly sanctuary and began an investigative judgment of his people. 01:11:52.940 --> 01:11:59.620 This period would be a very short duration, hence their expectation of his 01:11:59.620 --> 01:12:00.760 soon coming. 01:12:01.440 --> 01:12:06.940 In hand with this doctrine, they taught that the opportunity for salvation for the 01:12:06.940 --> 01:12:08.720 world was over. 01:12:09.760 --> 01:12:15.860 No longer could anyone be saved other than the small group of Adventists who had 01:12:15.860 --> 01:12:20.320 accepted the Millerite message and the Midnight Cry. 01:12:21.160 --> 01:12:26.000 This particular doctrine became known as the shut door. 01:12:26.760 --> 01:12:31.600 One of the first to propose this idea was O.R.L. 01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:40.840 Crossier who states, In the year 1846, I explained the idea of the sanctuary in 01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:46.240 an article in an extra number of the Day Star, Cincinnati, Ohio. 01:12:46.240 --> 01:12:53.380 The object of that article was to support the theory that the door of mercy was 01:12:53.380 --> 01:12:54.060 shut. 01:12:54.720 --> 01:13:00.000 A theory which I and nearly all Adventists who had adopted William Miller's views, 01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:04.940 had held from the years 1844 to 1848. 01:13:05.720 --> 01:13:07.480 Yes, I know that Ellen G. 01:13:07.700 --> 01:13:12.660 Harmon, now Mrs. White, held that shut door theory at that time. 01:13:12.660 --> 01:13:19.280 Another one of the early teachers of the shut door doctrine was Joseph Turner. 01:13:20.120 --> 01:13:24.480 But can any sinners be converted if the door is shut? 01:13:25.080 --> 01:13:26.580 Of course they cannot. 01:13:27.020 --> 01:13:29.760 The Advent Mirror of 1845. 01:13:31.440 --> 01:13:37.280 These and men like them led Joseph Bates into accepting the shut door doctrine. 01:13:37.280 --> 01:13:47.100 In the Review and Herald, August 19, 1851, Joseph Bates says, We understand 01:13:47.100 --> 01:13:53.180 that he was a mediator for all the world, ministering in the holy place, 01:13:53.660 --> 01:13:56.580 from the day of Pentecost, A.D. 01:13:56.880 --> 01:14:08.980 31, until his appointed time, the end of the 2,300 days or years, the fall of 1844. 01:14:09.680 --> 01:14:13.780 At this point of time then the door was shut against the Sardis Church, 01:14:14.020 --> 01:14:14.540 A.K.A. 01:14:14.620 --> 01:14:17.640 the Protestant Church, and the wicked world. 01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:23.680 James White explains the shut door in the same manner. 01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:32.740 In a May 1850 article of The Present Truth, page 79, James White deals with the 01:14:32.740 --> 01:14:38.220 shut door subject, Quote, From the best light we could then obtain from the 01:14:38.220 --> 01:14:43.360 autumnal types, we were very confident that the days would end at the seventh 01:14:43.360 --> 01:14:43.880 month. 01:14:44.120 --> 01:14:50.860 When we came up to that point of time, all our sympathy, burden, and prayers for 01:14:50.860 --> 01:14:52.640 sinners ceased. 01:14:52.640 --> 01:14:59.580 And the unanimous feeling and testimony was that our work for the world was 01:14:59.580 --> 01:15:01.660 finished, forever. 01:15:02.540 --> 01:15:08.220 But the sinner, to whom Jesus had stretched out his arms all the day long, 01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:14.740 and to whom had rejected the offers of salvation, was left without an advocate 01:15:14.740 --> 01:15:22.400 when Jesus passed from the holy place and shut that door in 1844. 01:15:23.380 --> 01:15:28.040 This article establishes that James White believed in the shut door. 01:15:28.900 --> 01:15:33.980 His article was to establish that what they had been preaching for the previous 01:15:33.980 --> 01:15:36.240 five years was correct. 01:15:36.940 --> 01:15:39.720 Keep in mind the dates on these articles. 01:15:39.720 --> 01:15:46.460 They range from the fall of 1844 up to 1851. 01:15:47.460 --> 01:15:55.240 In Selected Messages, Volume 1, page 63, Ellen explains what the term shut 01:15:55.240 --> 01:15:58.140 door, quote, unquote, originally meant. 01:15:58.540 --> 01:16:02.720 She admits that she did believe the doctrine like the rest of her associates, 01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:10.800 but she insists that this was before her first vision and that her visions 01:16:10.800 --> 01:16:12.600 corrected the error. 01:16:13.080 --> 01:16:20.560 Quote, for a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold in common with the 01:16:20.560 --> 01:16:28.020 advent body that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. 01:16:28.020 --> 01:16:32.880 This position was taken before my first vision was given me. 01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:40.780 It was the light given me of God that corrected our error and enabled us to see 01:16:40.780 --> 01:16:42.700 the true position. 01:16:43.500 --> 01:16:48.760 Ellen also explains the shut door doctrine in the Spirit of Prophecy, Volume 4, 01:16:48.940 --> 01:16:51.000 page 268. 01:16:51.000 --> 01:16:57.020 There should be no misunderstanding on what the term shut door meant for the 01:16:57.020 --> 01:17:05.680 Adventists in the years from 1844 through 1851, nor should we question the fact that 01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:11.600 all three of these aforementioned Adventists believed in this doctrine. 01:17:12.340 --> 01:17:18.440 Now, in the previous quote of Ellen White, she tells that she came to this position 01:17:18.440 --> 01:17:21.540 before she had the vision. 01:17:22.080 --> 01:17:27.600 And it was actually her visions that taught the group that they had erred. 01:17:28.160 --> 01:17:34.060 She and her defenders deny that she ever had a vision that supported the shut door 01:17:34.060 --> 01:17:34.640 doctrine. 01:17:35.140 --> 01:17:39.700 With just a little investigation, we can see that this is false. 01:17:39.700 --> 01:17:45.840 First, the clear history of this era teaches us that it took Ellen White six 01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:47.980 years to finally wake up. 01:17:48.580 --> 01:17:52.920 Is it true that she never had a vision that taught the classic shut door 01:17:52.920 --> 01:17:53.560 doctrine? 01:17:54.280 --> 01:17:59.060 Did her visions condemn it as error or support it? 01:17:59.560 --> 01:18:06.160 If her visions had touted it as error, shouldn't she have been condemning the 01:18:06.160 --> 01:18:11.280 error all of those years by inspiration and by straightening out her husband, 01:18:11.620 --> 01:18:12.980 Bates, and the rest? 01:18:13.880 --> 01:18:15.940 This was not a minor doctrine. 01:18:16.540 --> 01:18:22.100 This was a doctrine that condemned the world and taught the poor sinners that 01:18:22.100 --> 01:18:25.780 Jesus was no longer willing to save them. 01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:33.220 We will see that her visions did give support to the doctrine of the shut door. 01:18:33.220 --> 01:18:37.700 Ellen White's first vision is claimed for December 1844. 01:18:38.820 --> 01:18:46.840 It was not printed until it appeared in the Day Star January 24, 1846, 01:18:47.600 --> 01:18:56.620 and again in May 1847 in James White's booklet, A Word to the Little Flock. 01:18:57.540 --> 01:18:59.820 And I quote... 01:18:59.820 --> 01:19:05.680 Others rashly deny the light behind them and said that it was not God that had led 01:19:05.680 --> 01:19:07.060 them out so far. 01:19:07.320 --> 01:19:11.260 The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, 01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:17.200 and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus and fell 01:19:17.200 --> 01:19:21.380 off the path down in the dark and the wicked world below. 01:19:21.380 --> 01:19:27.440 It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the city as 01:19:27.440 --> 01:19:30.200 all the wicked world which God had rejected. 01:19:31.320 --> 01:19:33.720 What does the vision teach? 01:19:33.980 --> 01:19:39.940 That the faint hearted Adventists that had left the light had forever lost their 01:19:39.940 --> 01:19:43.200 salvation just like the rest of the wicked world. 01:19:43.320 --> 01:19:46.860 My friend, this is the exact doctrine of the shut door. 01:19:47.680 --> 01:19:51.920 What did James White say was the effect of the vision? 01:19:52.320 --> 01:19:52.940 Quote... 01:19:52.940 --> 01:19:58.900 When she received her first vision, December 1844, she and all the band in 01:19:58.900 --> 01:20:04.980 Portland, Maine, where her parents then resided, had given up the midnight cry and 01:20:04.980 --> 01:20:07.180 the shut door as being in the past. 01:20:07.500 --> 01:20:14.080 It was then that the Lord showed her in her vision the error into which she and 01:20:14.080 --> 01:20:16.060 the band in Portland had fallen. 01:20:16.060 --> 01:20:21.680 She then related her vision to the band and about 60 confessed their error and 01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:25.700 acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God. 01:20:26.140 --> 01:20:26.580 Unquote. 01:20:27.020 --> 01:20:31.500 A word to the little flock, 1847, page 22. 01:20:32.180 --> 01:20:33.680 Now notice what he says. 01:20:34.040 --> 01:20:40.880 After the failure of October 22, the group had given up the midnight cry 01:20:40.880 --> 01:20:47.060 and shut door as it was not in the past, but yet future. 01:20:47.460 --> 01:20:52.120 What turned them around to renew their faith in all of that, including the shut 01:20:52.120 --> 01:20:54.840 door, was Ellen White's vision. 01:20:55.340 --> 01:21:00.740 And the shut door that they had given up before the vision and the one they 01:21:00.740 --> 01:21:07.780 preached following that vision was that the opportunity for salvation for the 01:21:07.780 --> 01:21:09.580 world was over. 01:21:10.880 --> 01:21:18.400 Brother Crozier's view was repudiated by questions on doctrine and Mrs. White's 01:21:18.400 --> 01:21:21.580 view on the subject was Crozier's view. 01:21:22.620 --> 01:21:28.160 This is very significant because when we met, when you were, as you remember, 01:21:28.320 --> 01:21:34.040 before beginning college, I was meeting with Theodore Heppenstall and Dr. Murdoch 01:21:34.040 --> 01:21:36.660 and the top theologians of the denomination. 01:21:36.660 --> 01:21:39.100 And we were discussing this very issue. 01:21:40.020 --> 01:21:44.140 Dr. George Cannon, now professor of New Testament Greek at Bethel Theological 01:21:44.140 --> 01:21:49.200 Seminary in St. Paul, took his Greek New Testament out as fresh in my mind as if it 01:21:49.200 --> 01:21:49.800 happened yesterday. 01:21:50.600 --> 01:21:54.480 And he said, brethren, I should like to set forth a question. 01:21:55.860 --> 01:21:57.720 He said, if you'll open your testaments. 01:21:58.680 --> 01:22:02.380 Heppenstall and Murdoch opened their testaments to Hebrews chapter 9. 01:22:03.800 --> 01:22:12.580 And Cannon read, and I followed with him, that Jesus Christ entered once into the 01:22:12.580 --> 01:22:18.460 holiest of all with his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 01:22:19.700 --> 01:22:26.300 And I asked the question, and Cannon did too, did this take place as Crozier said, 01:22:27.140 --> 01:22:30.640 as Mrs. White said, as the early Adventists taught? 01:22:31.460 --> 01:22:34.300 Did it take place in 1844? 01:22:35.280 --> 01:22:38.960 Or did it take place at the ascension of Jesus Christ? 01:22:40.340 --> 01:22:47.380 The Greek text says, at the ascension of Jesus Christ, once into the holiest of 01:22:47.380 --> 01:22:48.800 all, the most holy place. 01:22:49.080 --> 01:22:55.320 The general conclusion was that the text of Hebrews left no doubt whatsoever that 01:22:55.320 --> 01:22:59.860 at the ascension, Jesus Christ entered into the holiest of all with his own 01:22:59.860 --> 01:23:02.200 blood, having obtained that redemption for us. 01:23:04.320 --> 01:23:07.900 1844 was not included in Hebrews chapter 9. 01:23:08.260 --> 01:23:10.220 It was written long before 1844. 01:23:11.020 --> 01:23:12.520 Crozier said, no. 01:23:13.240 --> 01:23:14.700 Mrs. White said, no. 01:23:15.160 --> 01:23:16.440 James White said, no. 01:23:16.780 --> 01:23:18.300 The early Adventists said, no. 01:23:18.840 --> 01:23:19.620 They were wrong. 01:23:20.280 --> 01:23:21.660 The Greek text is right. 01:23:22.360 --> 01:23:27.360 It's a question of whether you're going to accept the text of the scripture or the 01:23:27.360 --> 01:23:30.620 interpretation of Mrs. White over that text. 01:23:30.840 --> 01:23:34.620 Which brings me back to the basic question I was discussing before. 01:23:35.560 --> 01:23:39.460 Is Mrs. White the interpreter of scripture to the denomination? 01:23:40.180 --> 01:23:44.240 Answer, on the investigative judgment of the sanctuary, she most certainly is.